OSCAR Kingdoms: Ansteorran CoH Internal Submissions Page

[ ANSTEORRA Home | Ansteorra Heraldry | Ansteorra Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl|Trim]


ANSTEORRA Home
Ansteorra Heraldry
Ansteorra Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Ansteorra ILoI dated 2023-06-09

Greetings to the Heralds of the Known World, from Sigrun S. í Biarká, Asterisk Herald for the Kingdom of Ansteorra. Please find the following submitted for your valued consideration and commentary.


1: Abe no Hideyoshi -New Name (NP) & New Device

Purpure a fox couchant and a chief Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No changes.
Language/Culture (Japanese) most important.

Submitted through the BARONY OF THE ELDERN HILLS

Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan - Revised Edition Solveig Throndardottir

Clan Name - Abe page 208

Nanori - Hideyoshi page 265, 288, 295 334

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-15-42_Abe_No_M_perm_to_Con_Redacted.jpg

Name Comments:

Ragnar Larsson (Bordure) at 2023-06-10 10:49:54
Chief is less than a quarter of the field

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-13 16:19:05
Wrong area for comment on armory.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 22:27:57
And the width of the chief should be fine.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 20:38:17
Page numbers are not particularly useful with NCMJ as they differ not only between each edition but between each printing of a given edition.

Abe is found as a surname under Peace & Security - Gentle/Safe/Secure dated 1182 (Heian period) with the additional meaning propagate/multiply. To be used with no Abe must be shown to be an uji clan name. I'm not finding it under the Clan Names section of NCMJ; however, in registering Abe no Murasaki (04/2021, A-Ansteorra) Pelican noted that "[t]his name follows the pattern uji (Clan Name) + no + given name." That means that no should also be appropriate with this name.

Hideyoshi is found as a masculine nanori under:

  • Arts & Letters - Talent Ability (1332, Kamakura period, additional meaning "extraordinary/beautiful"),
  • Ethics - Product Good/extraordinary/Bountiful dated to Heian period (1183, "fealty"), Sengoku period (1568, "lucky/fortunate"), and Kamakura period (1322, "talent/ability") and
  • Virtues - Obligation/Fealty/Foster child dated to the Heian period (1183, "extraordinary/beautiful")
If the submitter doesn't care about the meaning or the kanji used, it may be simpler to just cite that Hideyoshi is found three times in the list of Historical Masculine Nanori dated to the Heian (1147), Kamakura (1332) and Sengoku (1568) periods.

The pattern "uji name + no + nanori" is found in SENA Appendix A.

No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 20:38:53
Duplicate comment.

Device Comments:

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 22:31:37
When the external LoI is created please include the fact that the submitter has permission to conflict, not just attach an image of the letter. However, in this case the PtC is not needed. There is an SC between a dragonfly and a dog.

No conflicts found.

There should be a comma after the field tincture.

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-22 13:53:57
Noted, Thank you for the tip


2: Abe no Murasaki -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2021, via Ansteorra.

Purpur a dragonfly, a chief indented Or

Original Submitted as - Purpure a dragonfly displayed Or

Kingdom letter of intent 7/10/2021 returned from commentary meeting 8/15/2021 for Conflict with Meraud d'Avignon - Purpure a dragonfly within an orle of fleur-de-lys Or

re-Submitted through the Barony of Eldern Hills

Device Comments:

Ragnar Larsson (Bordure) at 2023-06-10 10:50:40
The chief is about a quarter of the filed made to look smaller by the indention

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 22:33:52
It's somewhat narrow but that shouldn't be an issue.

No conflicts found.

There's a typo in the field tincture and there should be a comma after that tincture. So, Purpure, a dragonfly, a chief indented Or.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:38:04
I also found no conflicts


3: al-Sadiq ibn Ahmad ibn Ibrahim -New Alternate Name (NP) & New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2000, via Drachenwald.

Abe no Saburou Sadasuke

(Fieldless) Two Ravens volant respectant, Conjoined at the wingtips, within and Conjoined to an annulet, sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No holding name.
No major changes.
Language/Culture (Japanese) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Eldern Hills

Documentation found in Name Construction in Mediæval Japan by Solveig Throndardottir

Clan name - Abe page 201

Male Yobina Saburou page 372

Male Nanori - Sadasuke page 194

Alternate Name Comments:

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 22:59:18
Citing page numbers for NCMJ isn't particularly useful. Not only do they differ between each edition, they differ between each printing of each edition. You also need to state what NCMJ says about each element.

Abe is found as a surname under Peace & Security - Gentle/Safe/Secure dated 1182 (Heian period) with the additional meaning "propagate/multiply". It is also found under Historical Surnames where it is dated from the Heian period (1147). The registration of Abe no Murasaki on the 04/2021 noted that Abe was an uji clan name. This is important to note on the LoI as the element no can only be used with uji clan names.

Saburou is found under Number & Quantity - Third Son. It is the Chinese reading of the kanji and is a masculine yobina dated to the Muromachi period (1572). It is also found under Historical Masculine Yobina.

Sadasuke is found under Actions & Activities - Fix/Specify/Determin as a masculine nanori dated to the Heian period (1183) with the additional meaning "ministerial deputy." It is also found under Historical Masculine Nanori.

The pattern "uji name + no + yobina + nanori" is found in SENA Appendix A.

No conflicts found.

Badge Comments:

Ragnar Larsson (Bordure) at 2023-06-10 10:48:12
As drawn the wings are not cojoined to each other and the tail do not connect to the annulet

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:03:52
I think it's a coloring error. The outline shows both tails connected to the annulet and the lower wings conjoined.

Blazon suggestion with standard capitalization and punctuation:

    (Fieldless) In fess two ravens volant respectant, conjoined at the wingtips, within and conjoined to an annulet sable

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 21:29:21
You'll want "in fess" in the blazon, or other wording that indicates that the birds are flying to dexter and sinister rather that to chief and to base.

No conflicts found.

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-22 13:57:14
I will adjust the art (touch the wingtips) in the file before external packet.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-22 14:39:58
If you do, make sure you have the submitter's explicit okay.

al-Sadiq ibn Ahmad ibn Ibrahim at 2023-06-27 16:14:54
I am the submitter and Sigrun has permission.

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-07-08 15:45:43
not perfect but done and approved by the submitter

1: Image 1 2: Image 2


4: Antoine de la Trémoille -New Name (NP)

Sound (No examples given) most important.
Language/Culture (French) most important.

Submitted from the Consultation desk at AHSS

Antoine >Names from Lallaing 1384 - 1600: Masculine Given Names

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_names_masculine_given.html

Antoine>

7 1465-1596

Trémoille >

village in france for last name,

documented to the 11th century as long as locative begins with "T"

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-09 19:07:47
Better written up:

Antoine is a French masculine given name dated to between 1465-1596 in that spelling and found in Names from Lallaing 1384 - 1600: Masculine Given Names, by Domhnall na Moicheirghe http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_na...

de la Tremoille is a French locative byname. The manor or village of Tremoille is dated to 1527 in a book published in that year referencing the name - see attached https://www.google.com/books/edition/Le_chevalier...?...

1: Image 1

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 21:41:27
The urls were truncated when you copied them. The first is http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_na....

Without the title, I'm not certain which Google book the image came from but I think it may be "Le chevalier sans reproche: i.e. Loys de la Tremouille 1524" by Jean Bouchet (https://books.google.com/books...) though the url differs from the beginning of the one you posted. The book does not support the accent on the e; that is, it supports Tremoille rather than Trémoille. Good find!

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2023-06-28 16:31:05
We've also got two "de la Tremoille" surnames at p. 49 of Les genealogies, effigies et epigraphes des roys de France by Jean Bouchet, published in 1545 ( https://oscar.sca.org/s.php?u=14676 [ gallica.bnf.fr ] )


5: Catalin von Braunschweyg -New Name (NP)

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Client requests authenticity for 1550 Braunschweig Germany.

Submitted at Steppes Warlord 50th Consultation Desk

Catalin > Family search

Name Friner Jansen

Sex Male

Relationship to Head of Household Groom

Spouse's Name Catalina Amms

Spouse's Sex Female

Event Type Marriage

Event Date 19 Dec 1629

Event Place Emden, Emden, Niedersachsen, Deutschland

Event Place (Original) Emden, Emden, Hannover, Deutschland

"Deutschland, ausgewählte evangelische Kirchenbücher 1500-1971," database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPNB-F8K9 : 16 April 2023), Catalina Amms in entry for Friner Jansen, 19 Dec 1629; images digitized and records extracted by Ancestry; citing Marriage, Emden, Emden, Niedersachsen, Deutschland, , German Lutheran Collection, various parishes, Germany.

Cataline - ancestry.com

Nov 3 1649 (See last entry) on photo Doc 1,2

Source Citation;

Film Number: 1810480; Page Number: 135 Description: Taufen 1642-1689

Source Information

Ancestry.com. Germany, Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1518-1921 [database on-line]. Lehi, UT,

USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2017.

Original data:Mikrofilm Sammlung. Familysearch.org Originale: Lutherische Kirchenbücher, 1518-1921.

This collection contains parish registers and documents recording the congregational life of some communities

Germany.

Von Braunschweyg

Brechtel, Stephan: Wappenbuch des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Nürnberg, um 1554 - 1568

[Brechtel, Stephan: Coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire - Nuremberg, c. 1554 - 1568 ]

Münchener DigitalisierungsZentrum Digitale Bibliothek

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00020447/image_113

Photo Doc 7,9,10

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-51-46_Catalin_von_Brauschweyg_Documentation_Page_01.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-51-47_Catalin_von_Brauschweyg_Documentation_Page_02.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-51-47_Catalin_von_Brauschweyg_Documentation_Page_07.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-51-47_Catalin_von_Brauschweyg_Documentation_Page_09.jpg
#5 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-51-48_Catalin_von_Brauschweyg_Documentation_Page_10.jpg

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-09 20:04:30
Better written up and documented:

Catalin is a feminine given name found in England via Flanders in a list of aliens in London in 1593 - Gyles Depree, Rubaix in Flanders, Catalin his wife - https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/aliens/1593al...

Borrowing an English name into German is via the April 2015 CL.

von Braunschweyg is a locative German byname. The modern spelling of the town is Braunschweig. An I/Y swtich is well documented. We have the town in a book published in 1586 - https://www.google.com/books/edition/Braunschweig...?... - see attached as well.

1: Image 1

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2023-06-20 20:09:16
Katalin is the Hungarian form of Catherine, so another option is a German and Hungarian combination. The spelling Catalin is dated in Kázmér to 1584 under Papfalvi, 1592 under Radnai, and 1598 under Biró.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 22:12:35
Your urls are truncated and thus invalid. The titles and authors are also necessary. While the documentation could certainly be condensed (and should be), FamilySearch is valid though without a batch number the image would need to be included. The image would also be needed for the Ancestry cite.

The first is https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/aliens/1593al... which is found at Aryanhwy merch Catmael's site. It is raw data pulled from Scouloudi, Irene, Returns of strangers in the metropolis 1593, 1627, 1635, 1639_ (Huguenot Society of London, London: 1985). As these are explicitly names of foreigners, they are not considered English for our purposes. If it were found in a baptismal record, even if in a church for foreigners, we would consider it English. But in this case, I believe we treat the "aliens" as visitors.

FindMyPast has a 1598 burial record for Catalin Wimarke, daughter of Abraham Wimarke, buried in Kent, England (image 1).

As for the second, without the title I'm not sure what the correct url should be. However, it is probably easier to simply quote precedent as then photocopies are not required:

The byname is found in the title of Gründlicher Bericht, wie es mit Herzog Friderich von Braunschweig und der Stadt Braunschweig in der Belägerung ergangen (https://books.google.com/books?...), dated to 1615. [Johannes von Braunschweig, 03/2016, A-East].
For the i/y swap the relevant precedent is [Anneleyn Cornelisse, 03/2023, A-Drachenwald]

No conflicts found.

1: Image 1

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2023-06-28 16:35:42
The formatting of the LoI makes the documentation very difficult to read and follow, at least for me.

It looks like the original documentation was for Catalina, and I agree that's what the image of the document appears to say. The relevant information is:
Catalina Amms; Female; Marriage; Event Date: 19 Dec 1629; Event Place (Original): Emden, Emden, Hannover, Deutschland
There's no batch, but there is an image, which is attached.


6: Christopher of Bordermarch -New Name (NP)

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Submitted through the Barony of Bordrmarch

https://www.name-doctor.com/name-christopher-meaning-of-christopher-161.html

the name means "Christ-bearer, the one who bears Christ (in his soul)". The name originates in the Christian legend of St. Christopher. As a first name, Christopher has been in use since the 15th century. The meaning of the name suggested the legend of St. Christopher carrying the Christ child across the water. The name, frequently cited as religious and even zealous in nature, has found modern popularity in part due to historical figures. With the European exploration of the Americas following the navigation of Christopher Columbus, the name retained its reverent stature but allowed for its removal from purely religious uses and distinction.

https://forebears.io/forenames/christopher#meaning

A male name. (Latin Christopherus, French Christophe, Italian Cristofaro, Spanish

Cristoval, Cristobal, German Christoph): Greek Xp1orocp6poc;, 'bearing Christ'. It was originally a word applied by Christians to themselves, meaning that they bore Christ in their hearts; but in time there arose a legend of a gigantic saint who

carried the Christ-child across a river, and Christopher became an ordinary

christian name. The sight of the image of St Christopher was thought to be a

protection from accidents and sudden death for the rest of the day ('Illa nempe die

morte mala non morieris, Cristoferi sancti speciem quicumque tueris'), and it was

therefore often depicted on the outside of houses and churches in Italy, Spain, and

Germany. In England St Christopher was, for the same reason, one of the

commonest subjects for mural paintings inside churches. Always the patron of travellers, St Christopher is now in Roman Catholic countries regarded as being the particular protector of motorists. C. W. Bardsley, Dictionary of English and

Welsh Surnames (pub. 1901 )'s earliest example of the name in England is of the

14th C, and he says he found none in the Hundred Rolls of 1273. There are, however, examples of the name in the Curia Regis Rolls for 1201, 1220, but it is certainly uncommon until the 15th C when it becomes much more frequent (examples are Christofre Crease 1450, Crysteffor Johnson 1491, Christouer Hobye 1483). From the 16th C to the end of the 18th C the name was in fairly general use, often abbreviated to Kester, Kit, or Chris. It suffered an eclipse in the 19th C, and Charlotte Mary Yonge, History of ChristianNames, 2 vols. 1863. Revised ed. 1884 speaks as though it were little used in her time, but it has had a great revival in the present century.

Christopherus Curia Regis Rolls 1201-3, 1220. Cristoforus Poll Tax of West Riding of Yorkshire 1379 1379. Cristofre 14th-C Legendary, Lincoln Diocese Documents (E.E.T.S. 149) 1450. Christofur Records of St. Mary at Hill, 1420-1559 (E.E.T.S. 125-8) 1513.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-59-44_Christopher_of_Bordermarch_Name_form_Page_2.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/14-59-45_Christopher_of_Bordermarch_Name_form_Page_3.jpg

Name Comments:

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-09 16:47:49
(I found) <Christopher> http://s-gabriel.org/names/christian/fairnames/...#... Under the top 50 men's names listed by Scott Smith-Bannister for the 1560s and 1570s section 2nd column, 4th down

Also found in <Christopher> in the DNMES dated to 1581 - http://dmnes.org/cite/Christopher/1581/BEma... much briefer.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 22:16:36
Your first url is truncated and gives a 404 error. Actually, it looks like it may be an OSCAR issue. Anyway, a working url (hopefully) is https://s-gabriel.org/names/christian/fairnames/. The article is "Faire Names for English Folk: Late Sixteenth Century English Names" by Christian de Holacombe.

The second url also gives an error. The DMNES page for Christopher is https://dmnes.org/name/Christopher. The name is found multiple times in Early Modern English, with dates from 1481 to 1599.

Barony of Bordermarch was registered in 1982 and is used under the Branch Name Allowance (SENA PN1B2f).

No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-23 22:23:35
I recommend not including any of the documentation from the iLoI on the external LoI. Cite DMNES and the Branch Name Allowance.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2023-06-28 14:07:55
Yes, what she said. Only the DMNES cite and Branch Name Allowance will be useful to Pelican.


7: Clauß Fuchs von Nurenberg -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2020, via Ansteorra.

Gules a crocodile stanton Or, a ford proper

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-09 19:37:07
The croc is statant, and there needs to be a comma after "Gules":

Gules, a crocodile statant Or, a ford proper


8: Elen verch Phelip -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2014, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) A saltcellar shedding salt sable

Submitted through Warlord Consultation Desk - Barony of Bryn Gwlad/Stargate

The Line is done on a grey field for readability by Oscar

Badge Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-09 19:37:31
We don't care about line drawings any more.

Iago ab Adam (Wreath) at 2023-06-09 20:13:57
Laurel (and Wreath) don't care about line drawings. Kingdoms can still require them, and according to the Ansteorra Heraldry page Ansteorra is one that still does.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:07:39
Nice badge. No conflicts found.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:27:31
I also found no conflicts.


9: Elen verch Phelip -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2014, via Ansteorra.

Azure, a seme of keys palewise wards to sinsister argent

Warlord Consultation Desk - Barony of Bryn Gwlad/Stargate

Badge Comments:

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:11:43
Per the Glossary of Terms Table 5 these keys are inverted. The orientation of the wards is an optionally blazonable detail. Unless the submitter cares which direction they face, I'd drop that. Typo: semy, not a seme. So:

    Azure semy of keys inverted, wards to sinister, argent
No conflicts found.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:39:14
I also found no conflict


10: Hrafna Stórráða -New Name Change (NP)

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in May of 2005, via Ansteorra.

Old Item: Hrafn Óláfsson, to be released.
Submitter desires a feminine name.

Submitted through Steppes Warlord 50th Consultation Desk

Hrafna > Hrafn Hrafna- - Geirr Bassi, p. 23, counts one occurrence of this pre-pended descriptive byname meaning "Raven-" in the Landnamabok.

Viking Answer Lady - Hrafn- is identical with Old Icelandic hrafn, "raven"

Referencing Hrafnhildr - GB pp. 11; FJ pp. 212, 349; CV pp. 261, 281 s.v. hildr, hrafn

feminien form of Hrafn

Stórráða > appears in Haralds saga Gráfeldar, ch 11. also found on The Viking Answer Lady

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/SigridStorrada.shtml

Sigríð stórráða Tóstadóttir born about 927 in Sweden, daughter to Tósti, a well-regarded Swedish warrior. The nickname carried by Sigríð, stórráða, meaning "the Haughty", "the Proud", "the Ambitious", or "the Strong-Minded"

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-09 19:38:37
The feminine name is <Hrefna>.

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-14 18:30:52
I made contact with HG Hrafna and she said this - "I'd very much prefer "Hrafna", all things being equal. In my digging, I found that "Hrafna" is an accepted variation of "Hrefna" or even "Hræfna", But Gunnora is obviously the expert here, and if it AbsolutLy MUST be changed I will agree"

per conversation via email June 14,2023

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-14 18:46:12
Unfortunately, without documentation proving the assertion that <Hrafna> is a feminine given name, there's not a thing we can do other than to go with the documented feminine <Hrefna>.

The problem is that <hrafna> is the genitive plural of the masculine noun <hrafn>. Landnámabók tells us about how Flóki Vilgerðarsson got the prepended byname and became <Hrafna-Floki> because of the three ravens he carried with him to search for land. Flóki got the byname not because of one raven, but three, and prepended bynames are genitives.

If that digging the submitter did turned up sources that say differently, they need to be presented.

ffride wlffsdotter (Morelle) at 2023-06-30 18:35:21
As noted by the submitter, Nordiskt runnamnslexikon p. 122, the Old East Norse form of the name is Hræfna. But that isn't Hrafna.

Nordic Names (https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Hrafna), the likely source the submitter found, notes it is a modern Icelandic name, that was approved in Iceland in 2007.
(See: https://island.is/leit-i-mannanafnaskra and type Hrafna into the textbox, for the modern name.)
In contrast, the established name Hrefna has been on the Icelandic Personal Names Committee for a far longer time.


11: Laurents of Eldern Hills -New Name (NP)

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound (Attributed to my modern name, Lorenzo, without the "o") most important.

Changing the element's language, "Laurents", is acceptable but I first request a change to "Laurence", "Lawrence" in the order listed, if at all possible.

Name is based in mid 14th to early 15th century from Western or Southern Europe for reference.

See attached document for Name Documentation: *note* all documentation refers to given name and alternative name requests: "Laurents", "Laurence", and "Lawrence"

--1426 records found! (database search parameters: La*e) Justification for "Laurence" (1234 records),

"Lawrence" (36 records) as a direct reference; "Laurents " as attributed from the root name `Laurent' (1record): On 8DEC2021, Juliana de Luna, Lillia de Vaux, and Alys Mackyntoich,

Collected Name Resources

from LoARs (2010-present) From (outgoing) Pelican: A Resource for English Men's Names,

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/resources/englishmensnames.html

http://www.medievalsoldier.org/dbsearch/ http://www.medievalsoldier.org/about/publications/

-Justification for "Laurence" as a direct reference; "Laurents/Lawrence" as attributed: On 8DEC2021,

Karen Larsdatter (Karen Harris), Names from 15th Century York,

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/york15/surnames-alphabetical.htm

-Justification for "Laurents/Laurence/Lawrence" attributed from the root name 'Laurent': On 6DEC2021

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (Heather Rose Jones), Given Names from Brittany, 1384-1600,

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/latebreton.html

-Justification for "Laurents/Laurence/Lawrence" attributed from the root name 'Laurens': On 6DEC2021,

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman), Names from Choisy, France, 1475-1478,

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/choisy.html

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-09 19:30:35
Better written up and documented:

Laurents is a masculine English given name found in the DMNES dated to 1590 - https://dmnes.org/cite/Laurents/1590/RWC

of the Eldern Hills is an SCA branch locative byname. The Barony of the Eldern Hills is registered as Eldern Hills, Barony of the. This branch-name was registered in December of 1988 (via Ansteorra).

Coblaith Muimnech at 2023-06-13 23:24:43
I'm a little unclear as to what the submitter actually wants. "I first request a change to 'Laurence'. . ." makes me think it's that, and he's just willing to accept "Laurents" if he can't get it. On that assumption. . .

Here are three examples from the Middle English Dictionary. There are plenty more (and of "Lawrence", too, if he'd rather).

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-14 18:37:46
I agree and it does appear the first in line is the one he wants.


12: Lucille Beaumont -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 2020, via Atenveldt.

Azure a bend sinister fimbriated vert, a crescent and wolfs head contourny erased argent

Steppes Warlord 50th - Consultation Desk

Device Comments:

Isabella de Bordeaux at 2023-06-17 16:53:57
The bow and arrows are not mentioned in the blazon

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-17 19:12:48
Azure, on a bend sinister vert fimbriated Or between a crescent and wolfs head contourny erased argent two drawn bows, each with an arrow nocked, Or

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:17:49
The bows are reversed (string to dexter rather than the default sinister).

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:32:39
So therefore...

Azure, on a bend sinister vert fimbriated Or between a crescent and wolfs head contourny erased argent two drawn bows, each with an arrow nocked, Or

or is that too many commas

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:30:14
To therefore... Azure, on a bend sinister vert fimbriated Or between a crescent and wolfs head contourny erased argent two drawn bows reversed, each with an arrow nocked, Or

or is that too many commas?

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-07-05 20:31:10
removed for wrong location


13: Rosamund Nightegale -New Name Change (NP) & New Device

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in January of 2008, via Ansteorra.

Argent, on a saltire per saltire, azure and sable, a fox's mask argent

Old Item: Susanna Nightegale de Caldewell, to be released.
Submitter desires a gender-neutral name.

Submitted through Steppes Warlord 50th - Consultation Desk

<Rosamund > is an English feminine given name found in Withycombe, p 258. <Rosamund> Clifford, 1176

<Nightegale> - R&W, p. 322, s.n. Nightingale, says this is "a common nickname for a sweet singer", and lists a Alan Nightegale dated to 1260.

client is dropping the de Caldwell

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2023-06-28 16:38:44
Since Nightegale is already registered to the submitter, it doesn't need to be re-documented, unless she's asking for authenticity.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-06-17 19:13:54
Delete the second comma (the one after "per saltire").


14: Samo Koza -New Name (NP)

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Sam Weiss(9/2022), Seaan McAy (4/1995), Seamus O Shea (4/2003), Shiack NicGeoch (11/1996), Shimazu Yasukaze (1/2018), Shiozaki Kameko (12/2017), Simo Susi (11/2019), Simon Hauoc (6/1993), Susan Wise (11/2008), Susanna O'Shea (10/2012), Susannah Makejoy (12/1995)

Language/Culture (protoslavic 600-900AD) most important.
Meaning (references Historical Samo, protoslavic 600-900AD) most important.

Submitted through Steppes Warlord 50th - Consultation Desk

Samo - the Name of the First Ruler of the Slavs https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/download/481/480

Appendix H - Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names - Section SA

https://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/sa.html

Samo (m) -- Samo. c623. [Mor 171]

Koza > Appendix H - Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names - Section KO

https://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/ko.html

Koza (m) -- "goat." Koza Vetosha. Before 1270. [Gra 163]

Family search

"Slovakia Church and Synagogue Books, 1592-1935", database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6N9Z-P5X9 : 20 May 2023), Matthias Koža, 1720.

Name Matthias Koža

Age 80

Birth Year (Estimated) May 1640

Event Type Burial

Event Date May 1720

Event Place Slovensko, Czechoslovakia

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-23-38_Samo_K_name_doc.4.cover.png
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-23-38_Samo_K_name_doc.2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-23-38_Samo_K_name_doc.4.pg54.png
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-23-38_Samo_K_name_doc_Page_1.jpg
#5 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-23-38_Samo_K_name_doc_Page_5.jpg

Name Comments:

Sigrun Sveinungsdóttir í Biarká (Asterisk) at 2023-06-09 16:49:55
(I found) Schmauder, Michael; Schuster, Jan (2020). "Between the Rhine, the Danube and the Oder from the 5th to the End of the 7th century: a Sketch". The Migration Period between the Oder and the Vistula. Vol. 1. BRILL. p. 801. ISBN 9789004422421. Balcárek, Petr (2022). Byzantium in the Czech Lands (4th-16th centuries): Historical and Art Historical Perspectives. BRILL. p. 79. ISBN 9789004527799.

Koza > Family search "Slovakia Church and Synagogue Books, 1592-1935", database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6N9Z-P5X9 : 20 May 2023), Matthias Koža, 1720.

Name Matthias Koža Age 80 Birth Year (Estimated) May 1640 Event Type Burial Event Date May 1720 Event Place Slovensko, Czechoslovakia "Slovakia Church and Synagogue Books, 1592-1935", database with images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6N9Z-P5X9 : 20 May 2023), Matthias Koža, 1720.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-10 13:30:14
The citations for Koza are post period. We need pre-1650 citations for the name.

Juetta Copin at 2023-06-12 05:47:24
The submitted documentation lists it as a given name dated to before 1270. Double given names are allowed in Russian.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-13 16:24:00
Sorry, I meant that the Family Search citations are post-period. The Wickenden documentation is fine.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2023-06-20 20:32:39
I can do "Soma Koza" (note switched vowels) as a circa-1200s Hungarian name using Fehértói, but that's not Slavic.

I agree with Ragged Staff that the FS citation should be omitted; it serves no purpose here.

ffride wlffsdotter (Morelle) at 2023-06-30 18:50:05
Do we have the problem that there are more than 500 years between the name elements?


15: Sine na Ros -New Name (NP) & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Sine ni Mhoraig(3/1985), Summerhawk, House (10/1982)

Argent and azure a domestic cat sejant guardant argent and in chief a compass rose sable

Submitter desires a gender-neutral name.
Sound (Sine = Sin, as in Cin , like cinnamon) most important.

Submitted through Steppes Warlord 50th - Consultation desk

Sine> Sine is an English given name found in the Family Search records as the marriage of Sine Raynoldes, 2 Oct 1596 in Cranbrook, Kent, England, batch M01834-4) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NN1Y-R27

Family search 1596 Thomas Earle Spouse - Sine Raynoldes -Female Marriage - 2 Oct 1596 Event place - Cranbrook, Kent England,United Kingdom Event Place (Original) Cranbrook, Kent, England "England Marriages, 1538-1973", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NN1Y-R27 : 12 March 2020), Sine Raynoldes in entry for Thomas Earle, 1596.

na Rós> Gaelic byname, ros meaning a "wood, or promontory", as a locative byname

Ros> also found - Surnames by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman) https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/dutch/dutch15surnames.html

Under Others - last section

Ros 1478-81(S)

16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByGaelicRoot.shtml

de Ros Ros pg275 de Ros

Roos Rós pg665 Rós

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-16-15_sine_na_Ros_cover_doc.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-16-16_sine_na_Ros_Name_Doc.pg212.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=3445/2023-06-09/16-16-16_sine_na_Ros_Name_Doc.pg257.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2023-06-14 00:29:56
To demonstrate that the byname as submitted follows a period pattern (https://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#...) two things are needed:

  • to show that "na [topographic term]" is a period format for constructing bynames in period Gaelic and
  • to show that "Ros" is a period Gaelic topographic term of the correct type to be used in such a construction.


The provided sources do neither.

Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's "Index of Names in Irish Annals" does show a few topographics ( https://oscar.sca.org/s.php?u=14677 [ medievalscotland.org ] ), including na Formaoile (meaning 'the round-hill'), an tSléibhe (meaning 'the mountain'), and na Coilleadh and an Fheadha (each meaning 'the wood'). It doesn't explain when an is the proper form of the article and when na is. I assume that depends on some detail of Gaelic grammar; it would need to be researched.



The submitted online sources show Ros as a 15th century Dutch surname and Rós as the header under which Woulfe lists the attested 16th century Anglicized Irish family names "Roos" and "de Ros", respectively. Neither is thus established as a Gaelic topographic term. The included pages from The Place-Names of Scotland don't include anything dated.

The Electronic Dictionary of the Irish Language, s.v. 1 ros (https://dil.ie/35549), gives ros as 'a wood , freq. of a wooded height or of a promontory on shore of a lake or river; common in place-names, either alone or folld. by a gen: ross .i. trēde fordingair .i. ros fidbuide, etc.', and gives some period cites. But it doesn't give any examples of it in bynames and doesn't tell me, at least, whether it would've been used in one. Again, research would need to be done by someone who understands the grammar of the language to determine whether it is an appropriate choice.

Device Comments:

Isabella de Bordeaux at 2023-06-17 17:12:08
azure, a domestic cat sejant guardant and on a chief argent, a compass rose sable


16: Yamashiro Naotatsu -New Name (NP) & New Device

Gyronny Or and purpure, on a plate a fu-dog rampant sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Meaning (excellent dragon) most important.

Submitted through Gulf Wars XXXI Heralds point

Yamashiro - "Name Construction in Medieval Japan - Revised Edition" by Solveig Thronardottir s.n. Castle, 1600, pg. 137

Naotatsu - Constructed Japanese personal Name.

Nao - Solveig Throndardottir, s.n. Excellence, 1568, pg 231

Tatsu - Solveig Throndardottir, s.n.Dragon (New Kanji), 1392, pg. 174

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Ragged Staff) at 2023-06-13 17:34:37
Confirmed the documentation for Yamashiro, listed as a surname on p 137 of NCMJ.

For the constructed nanori, the suggested duotheme, tatsu, is actually a prototheme, and the suggested prototheme, nao, is actually a duotheme, making this construction actually usable in this way - Tatsu'nao.

I find no conflicts for Yamashiro Tatsu'nao.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:46:36
Tatsu is a prototheme under Dragon (New Kanji) but a deutrotheme under Dragon (Old Kanji) with the masculine nanori Nobutatsu and Yoshitatsu. Solveig notes "... the older forms should be preferred. However, as some sources have recorded names using the modern version, they are listed under the modern form."

While Nao is a deuterotheme where cited, it can be found as a prototheme (as well as a deuterotheme) under Action & Activities - Adjust Correct with multiple examples as the first element of masculine nanori. However, none of the deuterothemes are beasts or animals so I'm not sure that's sufficient to allow the name as submitted but perhaps it is.

The pattern "family name/surname + nanori" is found in SENA Appendix A.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-06-18 23:26:57
Thank you for including the headers for the name elements. That works much better than page numbers for NCMJ.


Thank you to all of the Heralds who provide insightful and constructive commentary for our consideration ~ Huzzah to all who continue to do amazing consultation in the Art of Heraldry and Onomastics. Hat tip to: Lady Jessimond of Emerickeskepe,

Ragnar Leifson ~ Red Shark Herald from the Kingdom of Atlantia, HL Adrian Hawkins ~ Couronne Rouge Herald from Kingdom of An Tir for all the help with Steppes Warlord Consultation Art !! Yall Rock The Black Star!


OSCAR counts 8 Names, 2 Name Changes, 1 Alternate Name, 7 Devices and 3 Badges. There are a total of 21 items submitted on this letter.