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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2019-04-18

Greetings Ansteorran Heralds!

Ansteorrans were busy at Herald's Point this year and we are splitting the submissions into two letters.

Here is the first half!

I apologize for the lateness of this letter, but there are 30 items between the Gulf Wars submissions and other submissions. Because of this, the commentary deadline has been extended. Please note the deadline.

1: Adena Terrickdoutter -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2008, via Ansteorra.

Per chevron or and azure, a chevron argent between two frogs vert and a cloud argent

Submitted at Gulf Wars.

Badge Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 08:13:50
The posture of the frogs is tergiant - allowable under SENA Appendix F: Some Armorial Elements that Do Not Need Further Documentation - "Insects (also frogs, lizards, turtles): Tergiant (in any direction, except possibly inverted)".

Consider the reblazon "Per chevron Or and azure, a chevron argent between two frogs tergiant vert and a cloud argent."

No conflicts observed.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-24 08:21:27
Tergiant is the default posture for frogs, so doesn't need to be blazoned.

https://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#default

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 19:57:32
No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-05-14 11:28:41
Adding the capital to 'Or':

Per chevron Or and azure, a chevron argent between two frogs vert and a cloud argent.


2: Ælfwyn Æthestans dohtor -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for 650 and 750 Jute.
Language (650 and 750 Jute) most important.
Culture (650 and 750 Jute) most important.
Meaning (None entered. (Believe client wants Ælfwyn daughter of Æthelstan)) most important.

Submitted through Myrgenfeld

Ælfwyn is found in Anglo-Saxon Women's Names from Royal Charters by Marieke van de Dal(Christina Krupp)found at the Academy of Saint Gabriel(https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/marieke/anglosaxonfem/). Ælfwynne is dated to 535 and 948 in Latin.

Æelthstan is the submitter's father's registered SCA name and she is entitled to use it under SENA PN1.B.2.g Existing Registration Allowance.

dohtor means daughter.

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:27:21
I'm betting this is supposed to be <Æthelstans>. Note that the headword and submission text don't match. There's no need to resort to a parental name exception, both are Anglo-Saxon names. PASE has lots of examples of <Æthelstan> (http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/pdb?dosp=VIEW_RECORDS&st=PERSON_NAME&value=13&level=1&lbl=%C3%86thelstan).

Thomas de Groet at 2019-04-18 16:25:52
Submitter is likely trying to cover all possibilities, including presumption of relationship, given that Aethelstan was a well-known Society member.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 18:10:13
And some well known kings. It's a popular name! ;)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:19:47
But (just in case anyone doesn't know) for relationship conflict we require "An unmistakable implication [which] generally requires the use of the entirety of a protected name." (I'm not at all sure how you'd do that in Old English, maybe <Ælfwyn Æthelstanes dohtor æt Cardeol> on the Middle English pattern of "The Wife's Tale of Bath" and "The King's Daughter of Hungary"?)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:24:49
See my post about conflict.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 13:58:16
Please clean up the typos! Æthestans in the submission line likely an error, Æelthstan in the discussion section is clearly an error. As Orle writes, we should have Ælfwyn Æthelstans dohtor and Æthelstan in those fields.

Construction matches SENA: "Old English: Patronymics take form of X sunu/sune or Xdohtor (X is father's name in genitive)." Genitive here is simple Æthelstan=> Æthelstans.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-04-22 17:24:57
I'm surprised the standardised Old English form wouldn't be Æthelstanes dohtor?

Electronic Sawyer (http://www.esawyer.org.uk/about/index.html) has:
Leofwine Æstanes sune, S 1228 (http://www.esawyer.org.uk/charter/1228.html)
Godwine Wulfstanes sunu, S 1461 (http://www.esawyer.org.uk/charter/1461.html)
Ælfeges Ælfstanes suna, S 1511 (http://www.esawyer.org.uk/charter/1511.html)
Æþelnoðe Wistanes suni, S 877 (http://www.esawyer.org.uk/charter/877.html)

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 11:18:29
Yes, you are probably correct. <shift brain from Norse to English, ignore first error> Ælfwyn Æthelstanes dohtor is the likely correct form.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:21:34
Can we send up

<Ælfwyn Æthelstanes dohtor>

correcting the grammar and the typo, without infringing submitter's "No major changes"?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-28 18:26:02
Concur with ffride.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:35:50
Under our rules, <Ælfwyn Æthelstanes dohtor> does not conflict with the registered <Ælfwynn Athelstanes dohtor æt Eoforwice>--or any other name in the O&A. However, I believe we should do submitter a service by apprising her of that registration so that she can choose whether to differentiate herself by contrast (expanding her father's name) or by omission (keeping the submission as is).

If she uses her father's full name, she needs to submit a document (see http://heraldry.sca.org/admin.html#APPENDIXD) signed by her father in addition to making the assertion presently in the headmatter.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 19:58:00
With the typos cleared up, this should be fine.


3: Bethesda Starr -New Name & New Device

Per chevron throughout purpure and vert, a unicorn statant contourny on a chief emabattled argent a lotus blossom in profile gules

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound (Bethesda Star) most important.
Spelling (Bethesda Star) most important.

Submitted through Wiesenfeuer.

Note from submitter:

If Bethesda as a given name and Star as a surname are unavailable together I wish to use Estelle of Bethesda.

The publication of the Bible in English and the schism between the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England gave rise to a trend of non-saint biblical names in England starting around 1560. The attached picture is from Kent England in 1647 documenting the usage of Bethesda specifically as a name in use in this trend. The identification of the letters was kindly don for me by Mistress Rhiannon Redwulf of the Province of Moonschadowe.

From the King James Version of the Bible, John 5:2-4:

"2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool. which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water; whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."

(Asterisk note: Emphasis on Bethesda is mine.)

The surname Star was used in Kent England in period.

Correction to Name (2019-Apr-18 07:04:42): I have received the letter of attestation for the use of Æthelstan

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/398/2019-04-15/21-05-40_Bethesda_Starr_Name_2.jpg

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:42:01
(1) The correction note belongs on the previous name.

(2) Bethesda was a famous pool considered to have healing properties in Jerusalem. There needs to be evidence that a Biblical placename could be used as a given name at a time/place compatible with <Star>. FamilySearch says, "No records found for Name: Bethesda, Event: Any, Event Range: 1000-1650, Country: England"

I see the picture, but no provenance of said picture is given. Where did this come from? Just saying "Kent" isn't enough. Give us the book info or the URL.

For most Americans, <Bethesda> is either the place in Maryland or the company that produces Elder Scrolls.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 00:36:59
I cannot confirm the picture as being attached to it, because I am neither a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor accessing the site at a family history center or at a FamilySearch affiliate library.

However, the other elements shown in image #1 above--viz., Bethesda, female, christened 17 Mar 1647, Rolvenden, Kent, England, father's name William Ferrall--match a FamilySearch record: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKJ6-3RGB. The record collection is "England, Kent, Parish Registers, 1538-1911".

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2019-04-24 16:39:45
Many things on FS can be accessed from home with the right software.

Snippet attached for the 1647 baptism; I can't figure out what it says, but Bethesda is a distinct possibility.

1: Image 1

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-04-30 08:36:17
I'm not a paleographer but the example you provided I believe says Bethesda (combined T & H and combined Long S & D) Daughter of William, then the picture gets dark.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 00:46:27
Submitter should show evidence for her correct assertion about <Star> in Kent. A Kentish record at FamilySearch is Standwell <Star>, christened Cranbrook, Kent, England, 13 Apr 1600, C03077-0.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 15:02:00
Bethesda is a placename. In Aramaic, beth ḥesda (ܒܝܬ ܚܣܕܐ) means "House of Mercy" and in Hebrew, beit ḥesed (בית חסד) means "House of Kindness". I really hate using a way post-period unique example to justify this. Yes, it could be Bethesda, and her parents could be idiots who gave their daughter a placename (it certainly happened often enough later). On the other hand, we have DOZENS of variations in late period England on Bathsheba, which IS a feminine given name, including Bathsheba, Bathshua, Bethsua, Bethshua, Bersabe, Bersaba, Bethsabe, Betheseba, Bathchebah, and many others, including the really odd Bathsibrye. Withycombe, s.n. Bathsheba mentions that it was a wildly popular name during the Reformation. Conflations with placenames begin not too long after 1600; versions of Beersheba (Berzaba, Berzeba, Barsheba), which is also a placename, start to turn up mixed in with the Bathshebas, more commonly beginning in the 1630s and on. So by 1647, a Bethesda is certainly possible, but it would shock my socks off to find it before 1600.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:41:42
I find no conflicts for <Bethesda Starr>.

Maryna Borowska at 2019-05-10 04:43:00
The header says Starr but the notes say the spelling Star is preferred, please confirm?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 19:58:19
Nothing to add to this interesting discussion.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:31:53
Adding in a comma to separate the chief:

Per chevron throughout purpure and vert, a unicorn statant contourny, on a chief emabattled argent a lotus blossom in profile gules.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 00:21:57
Fixing the tiny typo:

Per chevron throughout purpure and vert, a unicorn statant contourny, on a chief embattled argent a lotus blossom in profile gules

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:42:30
Suggest an artist's note: the crenels in the embattled line should be as deep as they are wide.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2019-04-18 10:59:09
The purpure is pretty difficult to differentiate from the gules.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 00:23:27
Concur. But OSCAR is much happier about it than I am.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2019-04-21 05:08:10
That is very true.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 20:11:22
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 19:58:52
Using pastels instead of saturated tinctures is not the best practice.


4: Bethesda Starr -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A lotus blossom in profile gules

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:33:57
Conflict with:

•Khalida al-Khansa'
◦The following device associated with this name was registered in December of 2007 (via Caid):
Per pale sable and argent, a lotus blossom in profile gules.

1 DC for removing the field.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 08:21:03
Concur with Iago's conflict call versus the device of Khalida al-Khansa'.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 19:59:20
Agree on the conflict with Khalida.


5: Caitlin inghean Rudhraighe ui Cheallaigh -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (15th Century Ireland) most important.
Spelling most important.

Caitlin - found in OCM (Corrian and Maguire), Irish names 1990. pg. 45 under heading Caiterina, Caitriona, Catraoine. Specifically Caitlin

Rudhraighe - found in Mari Elspeth nic Bryan - Index of Names in Irish Annals: Rudharaighe

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Rudhraighe.shtml

Submitted at Gulf Wars

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-10/20-41-00_caitlin_inghean_rudhraighe_ui_cheallaigh_name_2.pdf
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-10/20-41-01_caitlin_inghean_rudhraighe_ui_cheallaigh_name_3.pdf

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 01:11:22
If desired for cut-&-paste into the headmatter, submitter's Image #3 shows:

Cheallaigh - in http://www.s-gabriel.org/2208, lenited.
We could instead or also cite
Ui Cheallaigh - Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Index of Names in Irish Annals", https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Muimhneach.shtml, in Uilliam mac Donnchadha Muimnígh Ui Cheallaigh, 1337.
Note that https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/03/08-03lar.html s.n. Rígnach inghean uí Chonaill declares, "There is no need to capitalize the second patronymic particle", viz., Uí/uí, and that under Gaelic SENA Appendix A says, "Accents may be used or omitted as long as it is done consistently."

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 15:32:09
Caitlin: Nope, there is zero support for the spelling Caitlin. I don't believe we have registered one post-OSCAR. The closest thing is Caitilin:

Annals of Connacht 1530.2: Caitilin inghen Murchada Meic hSuibhni ben h. Dochartaig d'ecc. Same girl in the Annals of the Four Masters 1530.3 Caitilin inghen Mic Suibhne ben I Dhochartaigh, & Róis inghen I Catháin ben Fheilim I Dochartaigh d'écc.

No one has yet discovered even an anglicized version of this name both spelled with a C and missing the middle vowel. Mari's names article from Woulfe has a single example of Kattlen alias Katherine Moris, of Lysenusgy, missing the middle vowel. Kah-ti-leen, not kate-lyn.

inghean Rudhraighe: Looks fine, but I hope she knows this is from the Norse Hrodhrekr and Norman Roderick, not the native Irish Ruadhri. Accordingly, it keeps some gutteral final consonant, and isn't een-yun ROAR-ee, but een-yun ru(th)-rah-heh. Not that the guy below wasn't Irish, but different base etymology.

M1382.6 Rudhraighe mac Seaain Uí Fearghail d'ég.

ui Cheallaigh is fine.

Caitilin inghean Rudhraighe ui Cheallaigh

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:50:01
I find no conflicts for <Caitilin inghean Rudhraighe ui Cheallaigh>.

Submitter says "Spelling [not specified] most important." Can we nevertheless just send it up with the added I? Not that it won't be courteous to tell her!

Maryna Borowska at 2019-05-10 04:47:59
The scanned documentation page is documentation for Caitilin, so I would like confirmation of the desired spelling.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:04:54
Agree that the documentation is for Caitilin. Other docs seem to be OK. They all seem to be pronounced like "Kathleen", anyway.


6: Chiaretta DaSanseverni -New Name & New Device

Azure scale, a sea-horse naiant and on a chief argent three anchors gules

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language (Italian) most important.

Chiaretta - Venetian woman's name recorded in 1615, found in "Names from Sixteenth Century Venice" at https://s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html

DaSanseverni - Venetian surname found in BSB Cod,icon. 272 folio 123r as as "DASANSEVERNI" at http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00001419/image_257

Submitted at Gulf Wars

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-10/20-44-25_Chiaretta_dasanseverni_name_2.pdf

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 16:02:36
Chiaretta is an expected diminutive of Chiara, which is found before 1600.

We would expect the locative to be written da Sanseverni, or we would if it reflected an actual place San Severni, which it does not. The documentation from a roll of arms written in all caps and full of spelling oddities isn't the best example, though it should be sufficient for registration if the submitter is really attached. Submitter might like to know that the form of the surname is probably incorrect. The mix of Italian names in the Kingdom of Savoy where French was the court language leads to some interesting spellings. The family patriarch is Roberto Sanseverino d'Aragona, first count of Caiazzo (1418-1487), the son of Elisa Sforza, sister of Francesco Sforza, Duke of Milan. One of his sons was known as Galéas de Saint-Séverin as well as Galeazzo da Sanseverino' (c. 1460 - 24 February 1525), an Italian-French condottiere and Grand Écuyer de France. These all come from placenames based on a number of Saints Severin(us). I would think the best match for Chiaretta, which is very Italian, would be Chiaretta da Sanseverino. The shield shown in the roll, with Aragon in the dexter, has got to be the same family, so the painter of the roll either just screwed up, or he was French, or...

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-04-25 08:57:30
Additional docs for San Severino - Modern S.n. San Severino Marche, "Dizionario di toponomastica. Storia e significato dei nomi geografici italiani". UTET Libreria, p. 697. In part, "Gli abinanti scampati alla distruzione si rifugiarono, secondo la tradizione, sul vincino colle Montenero, dove innalzarono un castello cui fu assegnato il nome di San Severino, ultimo vescovo di Septempeda. Nel 1586 il borgo ottiene il titolo di città e diviene sede vescovile..." A translation: According to tradition, the inhabitants who escaped the destruction took refuge on the little hill of Montenero, where they built a castle which was given the name of San Severino, the last bishop of Septempeda. In 1586 the village obtained the title of City and became a bishopric.

Villana Palazolo at 2019-04-25 17:59:33
Comment from submitter on name -

I checked both boxes for "make no changes" but they may need to separate my last name from Dasanseverni to da Sanseverni, which I don't consider a change to the spelling, but they might and I don't want it to reject. The name can be separated as needed, I just would prefer someone contact me first if letters need to be added or removed entirely. (There wasn't an option for 'contact me first before making changes' it was either yes or no, and I didn't want surprise letters)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:51:25
I believe we're forbidden from publishing email addresses here.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Asterisk) at 2019-05-06 19:34:13
The email was removed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 18:58:26
I find no conflicts for <Chiaretta da Sanseverni>.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:35:14
Fixing a typo in 'scaly':

Azure scaly, a sea-horse naiant and on a chief argent three anchors gules

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 09:00:35
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:05:47
No conflicts found.


7: Corbin de Huntyngfeld -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2016, via Trimaris.

Per pale vert and azure, a stag's head cabossed Or and a coney courant pean

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:36:32
This is a primary head and secondary coney, so we need to adjust the blazon a bit:

Per pale vert and azure, a stag's head cabossed Or and in base a coney courant pean.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 08:54:44
Since the nose of the stag's head crosses the fess line, Iago's reblazon (EDIT: with Adelaide's tincture correction to erminois) was my first impression and seems 2 DC clear versus "Per pale vert and gules, a stag's head cabossed argent and a bordure Or." (Undewyn of Bordescros, Device, March 2018) for change to the type and tincture of the secondary charge.

Consider, however, versus SENA A2c3 (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A2c3 Appropriate Size) "... Charges that are too big or too small may blur the difference between charge groups ..." That may be ruled to be the case here since the width of the two charges are the same.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-24 10:53:30
Versus Undewyn, we have 1 DC for changes to the field and 1 DC for the tincture of the primary as well as your 2 DCs for the secondary, so it's well clear.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 16:13:09
I don't remember what the first submitted design was, so I can't say if this better. This would be much nicer with the head loud and proud, slightly lower, and two much smaller coneys in chief, where everything would fit nicely and have its own space to fill. Here, the bunny feels very cramped, and it looks like the stag is trying to decide whether to eat the bunny or not. There is also a weird artifact of the inking used to put ermine spots on the bunny that the bunny is popping to the eye, while the stag is not. Finally, that bunny is NOT pean, he is erminois. Per pale vert and azure, a stag's head cabossed Or and in base a coney courant erminois.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-22 17:19:53
The previous submission is here: https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=79636

And here's the text of the return from the December 2017 LoAR: "This device is returned for having two tertiary charge groups on the same charge. As maintained charges are not co-primary or co-secondary with their maintaining charge when they appear on the field, and as there cannot be multiple charge groups on the same primary or secondary charge, tertiary charges thus cannot be maintained by other tertiary charges."

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 11:24:12
Ah. So the stag IS deciding whether to eat the bunny. And this IS better.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:06:04
No conflicts found.


8: Cyneswith Æthestans dohtor -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for 650 and 750 Saxon.
Sound (Cyneswith Æthestans dohtor) most important.
Language (650 and 750 Saxon) most important.
Meaning (Cyneswith daughter of Æthelstan) most important.

Submitted through Myrgenfeld.

Cyneswith is found in Anglo-Saxon Women\\\'s Names from Royal Charters by Marieke van de Dal(Christina Krupp)found at the Academy of Saint Gabriel(https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/marieke/anglosaxonfem/). Cyneswith is a header in the article.

Æelthstan is the submitter\\\'s father\\\'s registered SCA name and she is entitled to use it under SENA PN1.B.2.g Existing Registration Allowance.

dohtor means daughter.

Correction to Name (2019-Apr-18 07:04:37): I have received the letter of attestation for the use of Æthelstan.

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:45:18
I'm betting this is supposed to be <Æthelstans>. Note that the headword and submission text don't match. There's no need to resort to a parental name exception, both are Anglo-Saxon names. PASE has lots of examples of <Æthelstan> (http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/pdb?dosp=VIEW_RECORDS&st=PERSON_NAME&value=13&level=1&lbl=%C3%86thelstan).

Thomas de Groet at 2019-04-18 16:25:27
Submitter is likely trying to cover all possibilities, including presumption of relationship, given that Aethelstan was a well-known Society member.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:02:01
As I said above (just in case anyone doesn't know), for relationship conflict we require "An unmistakable implication [which] generally requires the use of the entirety of a protected name." See my other comments on https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=5772#2 above, in case they want to be a matched set.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-22 16:15:43
Ditto the comments for her sister. Please clean up the typos! Æthestans in the submission line likely an error, Æelthstan in the discussion section is clearly an error. As Orle writes, we should have Ælfwyn Æthelstans dohtor and Æthelstan in those fields.

Construction matches SENA: "Old English: Patronymics take form of X sunu/sune or Xdohtor (X is father's name in genitive)." Genitive here is simple Æthelstan=> Æthelstans.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 11:25:50
And before ffride Bruces me, this should be Cyneswith Æthelstanes dohtor with the terminal -es possessive.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:04:52
I find no conflicts for <Cyneswith Æthelstanes dohtor>.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:06:31
Agree about the correction to the genitive of the father's name.


9: Derfel Raven -New Name & New Device

Argent, a raven displayed sable and a chevron vert

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Meaning (raven (for cant)) most important.

Derfel is a Welsh saint's name. The name appears in the 15th century poetry of Tudur Penllyn; "Derfel means rhyfel' (Thomas Roberts, ed., Gwaith Tudur Penyytn ac leucn ap Tudur, 1958: books.google.com/books?id=QW4GAQAAIAAJ

Raven is an English surname. This form is dated 1133-60 in Renney + Wilson s.n. Raven; the spelling also appears in 1344 "atte Raven"

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 14:13:47
Since the device is going back, it is worth asking the submitter some questions. Also, more docs.

Derfel is almost certainly pure legend. Depending on the version you read, he is either King Arthur's nephew, or a soldier of Arthur who survived the battle of Camlann, a nephew of King Hywel of Brittany and cousin to St. Cadfan, making him not actually Welsh at all. The dates of events in the life of Arthur in the Annales Cambriae places him in the 6th c. (~537 A.D. "Gueith cam lann inqua arthur & medraut corruerunt" 'The battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut fell') though note Derfel does NOT appear in the annals. In the 6th c., of course, his name would look nothing like Derfel.

Morgan & Morgan, s.n. Derfel, begin by saying "We need not concern ourselves with Derfel Gadarn, the warrior who turned to religion and after his death came to be numbered among the Welsh Saints;" which I take to mean they would really rather not get into whether he actually existed. They mention the placename Llandderfel (Merioneth), but the only human bearing the name they mention is Robert Jones Derfel (1824-1905) who assumed the name when he started a poetic society, because he thought it sounded nicer than Jones. Derfel Gadarn is 'Derfel the Mighty.' Heini Gruffudd, s.n. Derfel, calls Derfel Gadarn "a giant".

To Llandderfel: It is mentioned in a papal registry of 1463 as sancti Dervel, so Dervel is a 15th c. Latin form. Our saint's name allowance requires evidence of WIDE veneration, which I don't think we have. It also requires the use of the name as venerated, which I don't think we have a good handle on, either. Our saint's name allowance is based on the incredibly culture-specific idea that people named their children after saints, which the early and medieval Celts absolutely did not do (places, yes, children, no). It is instructive that we have a really good source of medieval names from Merioneth (The Merioneth Lay Subsidy Roll of 1292-3), where Llandderfel is, and there is not a Derfel in the bunch. In fact, I have not found anything remotely close to Derfel, Dervel, Dderfel, or Terfel in any medieval Welsh source.

The poetic reference which has been mangled should more properly appear as: Gwaith Tudur Penllyn ac Ieuan ap Tudur Penllyn, ed. Thomas Roberts, 1958. https://books.google.com/books?id=QW4GAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=derfel On p. 21 is the mention of Derfel, which should read Derfel mewn rhyfel, gwnai'i wayw'n rhyfedd 'Derfel in war, wondrous his spear'

The poem is actually about Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, last sovereign Prince of Wales, and Derfel is one of a number of legendary warriors with whom Gruffudd is compared, so say you wrote about your prince, "He has the wisdom of Solomon, the might of Hercules..." The poem was written in the 15th c., and the GPC (Welsh Dictionary incl. medieval sources) uses the 1958 Roberts edition as non-normalized for spelling purposes, so Derfel may be relied on as a likely 15th c. spelling. Again, Derfel is here praised for his butt-kicking, not his piety, so this is not additional data in the "wide veneration" question.

That Derfel is known is a given. He is known as Derfel Gadarn, Derfel the Mighty, so he is clearly known for his fighting. That's probably why he appears as a character in Bernard Cornwall's Warlord Chronicles, where Derfel is a Saxon brought up as a Briton by Merlin. Derfel seems to be a Warcraft character also. I believe that Derfel is a legendary figure, and without a single example of the name borne by a real person, the sainthood (conferred by the Celts on a vast number of their legendary figures so they could keep liking them post-Christianization) does not rise to anywhere close to the spirit of the saint's name allowance. Note: putting Derfel into the GPC tells you it is a mutated form of terfel 'clarified honey'.

I suspect that if someone has enough Welsh to look into other original period works of poetry that mention Derfel in that spelling, a better case can be made for the allowance for names from poetry and literature. I'm finding mentions THAT he turns up in period writing, but I'm finding English translations or Victorian summaries. I do find some interesting things in The Lives of the British Saints: The Saints of Wales and Cornwall, Volume 2 By Sabine Baring-Gould, John Fisher https://books.google.com/books?id=-G4AAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA333&lpg=PA333&dq=Lewys+Glyn+Cothi+Derfel&source= bl&ots=vWT2QZwZtX&sig=ACfU3U3NUO4LWN8cfg8Wag10I-23G7nC4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7sajb7ebhAhVRMawKHV rZAksQ6AEwDHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Lewys%20Glyn%20Cothi%20Derfel&f=false

So the whole incident of burning a priest using the false idol of a "Welsh god" seems to have really caught the fancy of the troops of Henry VIII such that THEY were moved to poetry. I can readily see that ticked-off Welsh might have assumed the name of Derfel in response to this much English interference. (See image #1). I think this gets him past the bar of well-known enough, whether he was a real person or not. "Known outside of Wales" is an important distinction.

Just for grins, in case he'd like an authentic name... In 6th c. Wales, we find an inscription of Dervaci 'of Dervacus' (HRJones, First Thousand Years of British Names), making Dervacus a reasonably attested name for 6th c. Wales/Roman Britain. Obviously, this doesn't make a good match with Raven, however Corvinus 'raven' is an attested Roman cognomen (Marcus Valerius Messalla Corvinus, 64 BC - 8 AD, Roman general). Dervacus Corvinus would actually be a pretty cool name for Roman Britain, specifically in the area of Wales, in the 6th c., when Derfel is meant to have lived.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:16:09
I'm not finding a requirement for "WIDE veneration" of a saint in our current rules. http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN1B2d1 allows church names to attest to a "Linguistically Appropriate Form", but no particular frequency is required there or in the introductory paragraph above it.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-05-01 13:18:22
The biggest problem with Welsh is that due to the widespread mutation of consonants, the combining form of a name to make 'church of X' or 'X's well' is often NOT the consonant we expect in the name proper, so we have to support the name spelling some other way.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2019-05-16 17:30:12
"....the sainthood (conferred by the Celts on a vast number of their legendary figures so they could keep liking them post-Christianization) does not rise to anywhere close to the spirit of the saint's name allowance."

I find your statement objectionable, in its assumption that you know what saints are or are not "acceptable". As well, I do not agree with you as to "the spirit" of that allowance; I see no "minimum requirement" or "lowest standards" in the saint's name allowance.

Further, your suggestion regarding the motivation for "the Celts" considering certain persons to be saints is an out-and-out insult.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:37:56
We need to specify that the raven is overall:

Argent, a chevron vert, overall a raven displayed sable.

SFPP for the non-eagle displayed but that appears to be the only one.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:41:00
Conflict with:

•Anne Whyte of Sedgewicke
◦The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 2005 (via the East):
Argent, a chevron vert, overall a tree blasted and eradicated sable.

1 DC for change in type of overall charge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 01:19:58
And what I consider the most obvious adjustment, replacing the primary charge, viz., Per chevron argent and vert, a raven displayed sable, also conflicts, with Bran of Cornwall's device (Aug 1972), Vair, a raven displayed sable.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-21 01:28:05
As well as any number of important non-SCA arms or flags - Prussia, Albania, and the Holy Roman Empire, to name a few - so permission to conflict is off the table.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:31:28
Speaking of missing the obvious. Thanks for the expansion!

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2019-04-21 05:11:05
Because the primary charge is the chevron, these are clear by SC of the primary charge. Anne Whyte of Sedgewicke is a conflict, however.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-21 09:26:46
These were being compared against Gerard's suggestion of changing the chevron to per chevron, not the submitted item.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2019-04-21 09:53:02
That's what I get for trying to comment at omg in the morning....

Vémundr Syvursson at 2019-04-22 11:46:09
Thou shalt have no commentary before caffeine.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 09:12:05
Changing only the primary charge from a chevron to a saltire seems clear.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:07:45
"Argent, a chevron vert surmounted by a raven displayed sable." There is a SFPP for a displayed bird that's not an eagle. Agree with the conflict calls vs. Anne Whyte of Sedgewicke.


10: Elyas Swyft -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Elizabeth Hyde(11/2011), Elsbeth the White (8/1979)

Per chevron ploye argent and gules, two monkeys salient respectant sable and a s snake in annulos vorant of its own tail argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language ((marked but none listed)) most important.

Elyas - http://dmnes.org/name/ELIAS 1302

Swyft - hhttps://books.google.com/books?id=0AyDDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=oxford+dictionary+of+family+na mes+in+britain+and+ireland&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAy9n4tcnhAhU-FzQIHb9LCrwQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=oxf ord%20dictionary%20of%20family%20names%20in%20britain%20and%20ireland&f=false

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 14:30:45
The name is fine; no conflicts noted. Bardsley, s.n. Swift, have the spelling Swyft dated to 1273 as well as the 1379 citation from Google Books, so you can ditch all that for a no-photocopy source. R&W, s.n. Swift, have examples back to the 12th c., and a mention that it was used as a given name also, supported by the example Nicholaus filius Swift in 1222.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:08:38
The cited reference shows Elyas as a Latin name from England. Pympernell's citations for the surname get the job done.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:46:27
S/b "in annulo", no "s".

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 10:47:36
Fixing some typos:

Per chevron ployé argent and gules, two monkeys salient respectant sable and a snake in annulo vorant of its own tail argent.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 20:49:03
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:09:04
No conflicts found.


11: Emma de Fetherstan -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2000, via Ansteorra.

Sable, a mullet of six points Or within a bordure compony Or and gules

Badge Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:47:03
That's spiffy!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 01:45:39
I thought I'd found a conflict, given that in general all mullets conflict with each other, and I think it's worth citing the precedent that seems to definitely clear the submission from it.

Garth the Lost's badge (Apr 1983), Sable, a mullet of four points elongated to base pierced Or within a bordure vert fimbriated argent, should come under the declaration at https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/08/14-08cl.html#3 that "mullets elongated to base are considered to be a variant of comets, and will be blazoned as comets". So even though Garth's badge has not yet been reblazoned, clear by at least 2 DCs (including one for the bordure tincture) if not by an SC. Right?

(Per http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1999/12/lar.html s.n. Sebastian of Dragon's Mist, Garth's piercing might or might not give a DC: "After much thought, we decided that piercing is worth a CD when drawn large enough to be equivalent to adding a tertiary charge ... i.e. when it is clearly visible and takes up much of the space available to it.")

I think there's also 2 DCs from Isabella de' Medici's device (Sep 1995), Sable, a mullet of eight interlocking mascles a bordure Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 01:47:21
Note that I am not declaring the submission free from all conflict; I'm not that good at hunting everything that needs comparing!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:09:29
No conflicts found.


12: Goldweard of St. Golias -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 2009, via Ansteorra.

Sable, a demi-dragon Or

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 11:12:14
Potential conflict with:

•Alaric Dimitrievich Razvedchikov
◦The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1994 (via Drachenwald):
Per chevron azure and Or, in sinister chief a demi-dragon Or.

1 DC for the field. I *think* the placement of Alaric's dragon is forced (the field makes it so it can't be central, so it has to be in one of the top corners), so no DC for placement.

Elena Wyth at 2019-04-18 14:06:04
the forced placement would just be in chief, right? by specifying sinister chief, it seems like that's going a bit beyond the forced placement.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 14:50:22
Ah, found a relevant precedent (recent, even):

[Considering Per chevron azure and barry Or and sable, in sinister chief a hawk striking Or.]
This device conflicts with the device of Eve Nightstalker: Azure, an owl striking Or, beaked and membered argent, orbed sable. There is one DC for changing the field, but no other as there is no DC for the type of raptor (since neither of them is in their default posture) or the posture, and the move is forced to the upper portion of the field (regardless of where it ended up). [Matthijs Tjepke van der Horst. February 2016 via Lochac]
So this is a definite conflict.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-04-18 20:48:26
Yep. The rationale is that the "in sinister chief" charges couldn't be in the middle of the field. That's what's forced about the move, not where they got moved to.

Goldweard of St. Golias at 2019-04-19 22:07:48
It will not fix it for this submission but would adding a bordure clear conflict?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 02:07:28
I believe adding a bordure, a peripheral secondary charge, must pretty well always earn a DC. In particular, Sable, a demi-dragon and a bordure Or would in fact be clear from Alaric's device.

This might of course run into different conflicts. I don't believe Armand Dragonetti's device (Sep 2001), Sable, a dragon rampant erminois and a bordure Or is one, with a DC for type of primary charge and another for tincture--but I'm generally rubbish in hunting for conflicts.

On the third hand, I really don't like shrinking the demi-dragon! I'd instead counsel getting difference by adding a smaller charge in base.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 14:44:53
I would not recommend a small charge in base, since he has gone with the "cut loose in space" representation of the tail as shown with a lion in Parker. (It might help to show a period example of a tail that far separated.) Placing much of a charge in base is going to obscure that invisible line that separates Puff from his tail. The period rolls with which I am familiar keep the tails much closer to the beast (see image #1).

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:10:21
Agree about the conflict vs. Alaric.


13: Hubert de Aiques Mortes -New Name Change & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Hubert de Aquis mortuis(12/2003)

OSCAR NOTE: 'Old Item' should contain the former primary name. The form that is there is not a registered name.

Per pale vert and sable, a stag's head cabossed argent and in base three goutes d'eau two and one

Old Item: Hubert de Aiques Mortes, to be released.

Original submission Dec 2003, was latinized. Submitter wants original French name/language instead

Aigues Mortes - city is Southern France founded before 1000 CE

Name Comments:

Elena Wyth at 2019-04-18 14:07:49
So, the submitter wants to release <Hubert de Aquis mortuis> and register <Hubert de Aiques Mortes>?

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:13:23
Yes, he wants to release Hubert de Aquis mortuis. No, he does not want Hubert de Aiques Mortes, which is STILL LATIN. He wants Hubert d'Aigues Mortes.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 03:23:09
It is not sufficient to give just a foundation date for a place name, nor to cite a spelling merely similar to that submitted. So something like the following is needed to establish the period spelling.

Assuming the <Aiques Mortes> form in the heading here is that desired, cite David Frölich, Bibliothecae seu Cynosura Peregrinantium, Liber Tertius, Parti Prioris, 'A Library or a Guiding Star for Pilgrims, III.i', (1643), (Google inexplicably, to me, labels this "Volume 4"), https://books.google.com/books?id=CwVQAAAAcAAJ, p. 237, first image below, "<Aiques Mortes> oppidum Galliæ munitissimum", 'Aiques Mortes the most strongly fortified town of France".

Just in case the "Aigues Mortes" cited as documentation is desired, consider what Google calls Le Thresor, ou stile et Protecolle de la Chancellerie de France (1614), https://books.google.com/books?id=37XRBOU45o0C, p. 54, second image, "Office de Lieutenant de Maistre des ports de ls ville d'Aigues mortes", which I suppose is "Office of the Lieutenant of the Master of the ports of the town of Aigues Mortes.'

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:15:41
Aigues-Mortes is still the name of the town, since the medieval period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aigues-Mortes

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:23:54
[Non-optimally placed. Pasted below instead.]

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:09:45
We just went through all this recently for the submission of Geneviève d'Aigues-Mortes [West - 2018-11-26 LOI]. https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=92062 I cited:

Dauzat/Rostaing (s.v. Aiguebelette) has Aigues-Mortes "de Aquae mortuae" ('of the stagnant water') dated to 1248. I think the form in the submitted source is reasonable. There is also an Aigues-Vives, which sounds much cheerier.

Crampette found the joined form: Another form of this locative is Aiguesmortes, found in Édict du Roy, sur la cassation des ports et officers de la foraine, establis au bas Languedoc, published 1595 (t. Henri II), https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97492960/f3.image.

So, here's the problem. Submitted form is, as documented, LATIN. Nothing wrong with that, but submitter wants FRENCH, which is d'Aigues Mortes. I am currently Facebook Messaging with Kevin/Hugh, and he is under the impression that it was "corrected" at Gulf Wars to French, with the G spelling. He wants the G, he wants French. Submission line should read Hubert d'Aigues Mortes.

1: Image 1

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:11:24
We just went through all this recently for the submission of Geneviève d'Aigues-Mortes [West - 2018-11-26 LOI]. https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=92062 I cited:

Dauzat/Rostaing (s.v. Aiguebelette) has Aigues-Mortes "de Aquae mortuae" ('of the stagnant water') dated to 1248. I think the form in the submitted source is reasonable. There is also an Aigues-Vives, which sounds much cheerier.

Crampette found the joined form: Another form of this locative is Aiguesmortes, found in Édict du Roy, sur la cassation des ports et officers de la foraine, establis au bas Languedoc, published 1595 (t. Henri II), https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97492960/f3.image.

So, here's the problem. Submitted form is, as documented, LATIN. Nothing wrong with that, but submitter wants FRENCH, which is d'Aigues Mortes. I am currently Facebook Messaging with Kevin/Hugh, and he is under the impression that it was "corrected" at Gulf Wars to French, with the G spelling. He wants the G, he wants French. Submission line should read Hubert d'Aigues Mortes.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:25:46
Huh! While I was hunting for the other one, I found a Latin source that claimed <Aiques-mortes> as the French ("Gall.") version of the place name:

Natalis Conti, Universae historiae sui temporis, Libri 30 (1612), https://books.google.com/books?id=W6dSAAAAcAAJ, unpaginated but near the beginning in alphabetical order, first image below, "Fossae Papirianae ] Galliae Narbonensis urbs, quae hodie Aqua mortua (vel potius Aquae mortuae. Gall. Aiques-mortes : à pigris & stagnantibus aquis sic dicta.)", which I make 'Papirian Trenches ] French city of Narbonne, which today "Dead Water" (or rather "Dead Waters", French Aiques-mortes: a sluggish and stagnant water, so called.)'*

Of course with Hubert's actual wishes known, this is moot!
------------------
* My Shakespeare instructor at Catholic U. once declared to us that he had never yet seen a closing parenthesis correctly placed in Early Modern English. This may be a similar case for Latin in the same period.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:26:58
[Duplicate deleted. Apologies for fumbling.]

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-05-01 13:26:14
In what appears to be a fully Latin work, I would take their "French" spelling with a grain of salt. The DMF has zero examples with aiq- spellings, though there are a couple missing the consonant entirely, like aiue, and some with W, like aywe. Since I can support the modern town-name spelling well back into the 1300s, I suggest we stick with that one.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-05-04 15:48:24
Seems prudent to me. Which was why I wrote "claimed" above.

That turns out to have been wise. In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalis_Comes (in what someone has called "the first step toward research"), I find hat the author was " an Italian mythographer, poet, humanist and historian", not a Frenchman.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:16:03
Apologies for the duplicate!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-05-04 15:49:36
Are you aware you could instead have Edited one of those duplicates down to a similar apology? OSCAR won't let you delete entirely, but it lets you edit a comment as radically as you choose.

Device Comments:

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 21:01:43
Assuming this is indeed a primary stag's head (I think it is, but it could stand to be a smidge larger), no conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:11:15
No conflicts found. Agree that the primary head could be a bit larger and the secondary goutes a bit smaller.


14: Jean Vasse de la Mer -New Name & New Device

Azure, a chevron inverted Or in chief a wolf sejant ululant argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (None entered) most important.
Culture (None entered) most important.

Submitted through Aldersruhe.

Jean is found in Names from Choisy, France, 1475-1478 by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael.

VAsse is found in Names from Choisy, France, 1475-1478 by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael.

de la Mer is a locative in accordance with SENA Appendix A.

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:37:38
Name is okay, though unlikely in France, if that is important to the submitter. Delamer/Lamer is very rare, as makes logical sense. ("You're from the ocean? Isn't that very... wet?") It turns up outside of France more readily. Here is a christening in 1593 at the "Walloon or Strangers Church" in Canterbury:

Michel De La Mer (Male) Christening Date 15 Jul 1593 Christening Date (Original) 15 JUL 1593 Christening Place WALLOON OR STRANGERS CHURCH,CANTERBURY,KENT,ENGLAND Father's Name Michel De La Mer C04902-1

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:38:49
Also, link for the Choisy article: http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/choisy.html

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:42:04
The "de la Mer" line in the headmatter should be deleted in favor of Pympernell's citation.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:43:45
"VAsse" in the headmatter should be "Vasse". (Yes, it's obvious--and if I were doing submissions I'd want all the obvious errors noted somewhere so I had less chance of missing them.)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:12:03
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 11:14:38
'Ululant' is an unblazoned detail now. And we need a comma or conjunction before the 'in chief'.

Azure, a chevron inverted Or, in chief a wolf sejant argent.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 21:23:17
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:12:26
No conflicts found. Iago has correctly touched up the blazon.


15: Jósep Gautrsson -New Name & New Device

Azure, on a pile argent, in pale a crow atop an anvil sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (early 11th century Norse) most important.

Jósep - Geirr Bassi pg. 12

Gautr - Geirr Bassi pg. 12

Viking Answer Lady http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#g

-sson - Formation of patronymics and matronymics Geirr Bassi pg. 17

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-04-22 17:35:59
Lind col. 306 sn Gautr has the earliest date (that I can see) with the name in the genitive as:
Drvcnvn Gauts Gunforar sonar, in an annal entry from 1191.
There's also the Landnámabók-era mention of a Gautr i Gautsdal or Gautzdal.

So it's much more likely the patronymic is "Gautsson" than anything else.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:50:04
I find no conflicts for

<Jósep Gautsson>.

That is what we're sending up, right?

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:50:33
The bird is not "atop" anything, it would have to touch the anvil to be "atop".

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 11:41:48
So:

Azure, on a pile argent in pale a crow and an anvil sable.

(One would think that 2 charges on a pile would default to 'in pale', but looking through the O&A it appears we blazon it explicitly more often than not.)

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 21:36:32
No conflicts found. There may need to be an artist's note to draw the point of the pile lower on the field, but it's probably not worth doing anything about. :)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:13:39
Agree with Iago's blazon correction. No conflicts found.


16: Koia Karasova -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (Russia) most important.

Koia - fem Russian diminutive of Koika, 1437, Wickenda 3rd edition

Karasova - standard fem. patronymic of Karas, "karasmanakhin syn Esiukov" 1498. ibid.

given name + patronymic byname attested in SENA appx. A

Consulting herald - Sofya la Rus

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-04-22 18:19:55
Just so the submitter is aware, the name is likely not Russian (though it clearly is Slavic).

Wickenden sn. Koika lists the diminutive Koia as coming from Moroshkin p. 101 (https://archive.org/details/slavianskimenos00morogoog/page/n214)
I think Moroshkin is saying he got the name from "Влах-болгарскія или Дако-славянскія грамоты" (Vlach-Bulgarian or Dako-Slavic letters)?
Because in the appendix, on page 354, there is Коя (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=1p4ZAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA141&ots=7xvPCLGTVx&dq=%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1% 85.-%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80.%20%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B.&pg=PA354#v= onepage&q=%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%8F&f=false)
The start of the section seems to be talking about Serbian names found in a list held in the Metropolitan Library of Bucharest (in Romania), and I'm not clear where the date information in Moroshkin came from.

As noted in the July 2017 LoAR, adding this is pretty much for the benefit of the submitter, as it shouldn't impact its registration:
"Despite these flaws, the Dictionary remains the best generally available source for Russian names and one easily accessible to submitters. Therefore, where the submitter has not requested authenticity, names found in the Dictionary will be treated as Russian, regardless of their source. In addition, we will continue the policy of giving submitters the benefit of the doubt as to temporal compatibility when using name elements found in the Dictionary."
(https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/07/17-07cl.html)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:54:57
I find no conflicts for <Koia Karasova>.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:14:12
ffride's documentation seems to get the job done.


17: Liliana Barnes -New Name & New Device

Argent, two chevrons within a bordure vert

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound (None entered) most important.

Submitted through Moooneschadowe.

Lilian:

1. Reference Academy of St Gabriel report #732 at http://www.s-gabriel.org/732

"Lillian" was used in period as a diminutive of "Elizabeth", rare, but documentable

2. Feminine Given Names in "A Dictionary of English Surnames" - Elizabeth http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Elizabeth

Lillian as possible diminutive for Elizabeth

3. IGI has Lilian Dawson christened 1 November 1574, batch C02690-1

Barnes:

1. Reference Academy of St Gabriel "List of Surnames" http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/christian/fairnames/surnames.html#list

Name Comments:

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-04-18 20:55:04
The name submitted here may be my typo/fault/etc for not catching how she filled out the form.

She documented and submitted "Lilian Barnes" (although she put "Liliana Barnes" on the top line). She would prefer Liliana if possible, I know, as that's what she goes by.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-04-22 18:46:55
Oddly enough, the name pops up in grey-period Romania.

Dicţionar onomastic românesc by N.A. Constantinescu, p. 310 sn. Lila (copy of the entry here: https://www.dex.md/intrare/Lila/200114) notes the sister-in-law of Vasile Lupu was "Liliana cneaghina" in 1635.

The internet seems to imply this is Liliana Abaza, the wife of Gavril Coci.

There is reportedly an inscription in Agapia monastery, in Târgu Neamţ, that mentions her but I've only found it in Modern Romanian, and English translations. (eg. http://www.romanianmonasteries.org/other-monasteries/neamt-monasteries/agapia)

Even stranger, Izvoare medievale româneşti din Rusia și Finlanda by Vlad D. Ghimpu notes a place called "Барнево" [Barnevo] in 15-16th century Novgorod, which he seems to associate with "bârne" a wooden beam, the trunk of a tree. Which could get us a Romanian/Russian "Liliana Barnevova"?

But this is almost certainly not what the submitter wants!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 18:35:05
Just so no one else falls down the same rabbit hole: I hunted for "Liliana" in period Google books, and found several hits--capitalized yet. Unfortunately, it's seems always to be a Latin adjective meaning "Lilian", i.e., 'connected with Luigi Lilio, who primarily authored the Gregorian calendar', never a personal name.

Sigrith parði (Sigrith Vigdisardaater) at 2019-04-22 00:09:41
"Liliona" has been registered recently as a Latinized form of "Lilion". Possibly the same could be done with "Lilian"?

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:43:57
Agree, Liliana is an unremarkable Latinized form of Lilian, which should not require further documentation. "Stick an A on the end" is pretty much standard Latinization for a feminine name where there is not an obvious Latin base for the name.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:57:26
Can you feminize an already feminine name that way?

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-05-01 13:32:01
We're not really feminizing, so much as latinizing. Latin scribes detest vernacular names that are indeclinable, so there is a strong tendency to add -a to feminine names and -us to masculine names so they know how to reflect cases. England is also lousy with clerks who latinized ONLY the given name, so Johannes Fletcher is as likely as John Fletcher.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-05-04 15:50:51
Interesting. And thank you!

Device Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia at 2019-04-24 09:25:52
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:14:38
No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-05-14 11:47:51
If there are two of them we use the diminutive:

Argent, two chevronels, a bordure vert.

It's a bit weird to me that the chevronels have slightly different angles, but probably not worth more than an Artists Note.


18: Marie de l' Étoile -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (13th-15th French name) most important.

Marie - Withycombe pg. 208 Marie. Feminine, a French form of Mary

de l' Étoile

definition of e{t'}oile - 1: a star or a pattern in the shape of a star. 2: a principal dancer in a ballet company

Bynames in Medieval France http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/frenchbynames.pdf

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-11/22-14-56_marie_de_l'etoile_name_2.pdf
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-11/22-14-59_marie_de_l'etoile_name_3.pdf
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-11/22-14-59_marie_de_l'etoile_name_4.pdf
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2157/2019-04-11/22-14-59_marie_de_l'etoile_name_5.pdf

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 15:58:26
I am not getting any joy on those pdfs. Chère Marie, the documented form of the surname from your cited source is from the 1292 Paris census, and it is "de l'Estoile", not the submitted form. Both the dropping of the S, and the accent, seem to be post-period phenomena. Consider the Parisian diarist Pierre de L'Estoile (1546 - 1611). Both L'Estoile in northern French and Lestelle in langue d'oc seem to have preserved the S for naming purposes, well past the shift in the common noun.

Marie de l'Estoile is a fine name.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 19:59:45
The dropping of the S and the accent are a single phenomenon: The latter represents the former.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 20:07:38
Correction: That's for the circumflex accent, ê. I've no idea where the é comes from.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-05-01 13:42:07
I think it reflects a real change in pronunciation. If you think about how we pronounce estoille, and another drop-s French word, fenêtre, it's IPA ɛ rather than IPA e, which they use for é.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-05-04 15:52:14
Thank you. That's the fact I wasn't supplying.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 20:10:22
I find no conflict for <Marie de l'Estoile>. (<Marie-Véronique de l'Estoile> is clear under our rules.)


19: Siaua Thugatêr Karsas -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 29, 2018 as Siaua thugatêr Karsas.

Per bend sinister sable and gules, in bend two dragons contourney in annulo with flames counterchanged argent and Or

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2019-04-18 10:52:49
S/b "breathing flame" or "vomiting flame".

Siaua thugatêr Karsou (Siaua thugater Karsou) at 2019-04-19 08:56:20
Vomiting is terrible. Breathing is better.

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 11:55:35
We don't blazon the chirality of charges 'in annulo', so we can remove 'contourn(e)y'. Charges on a divided field default to being on either side of the division so we can remove 'in bend'. We also need to make it clear from the blazon that the two dragons are forming 2 circles instead of one big one. And adding in Orle's suggestion:

Per bend sinister sable and gules, two dragons breathing flames, each in annulo, counterchanged argent and Or

or perhaps:

Per bend sinister sable and gules, a dragon breathing flames in annulo argent and another Or

Siaua thugatêr Karsou (Siaua thugater Karsas) at 2019-04-18 22:16:34
It's Lady Sîaua thugâter Karsou (approved after this was submitted) Your first suggestion is great: Per bend sinister sable and gules, two dragons breathing flames, each in annulo, counterchanged argent and Or

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 18:41:57
Just for bookkeeping: Laurel registered <Siaua thugatêr Karsou>, with the middle word accented as in the heading here (though uncapped) and the last ending as you show.

Siaua thugatêr Karsou at 2019-04-22 06:16:41
Got it. Now to keep on topic, let's look more into the device. Just so it keeps the conversation fluid.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 21:45:52
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:16:46
Agree with Iago's effort to specify that the dragons are not together in one annulus. No conflicts found.

Siaua thugatêr Karsou at 2019-05-13 21:02:25
I agree with whichever option you all think is best. Thanks for all your work.


20: Thaddaeus Maloethes -New Name & New Device

Per fess azure and vert, a tree eradicated Or within an annulet of lozenges argent within a bordure Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Sound (None entered) most important.

Submitted through Weisenfeuer.

Thaddaeus is the Biblical Greek Surname of John the Disciple ans as such was used as a first name. It is also the submitter's legal first name.

Maloethes was found on the SCA website for Byzantine last names, and as such I started using it without digging much further.

Asterisk Note: I realize this isn't documentation, however, I did not have the time to find basic documentation. I am hopeful the commenters will have time.

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-04-19 08:27:22
I haven't been able to find Maloethes with a Google advanced search. I'm wondering if it is a typo by the submitter?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-21 19:17:12
Yep. Typo for <Kaloethes>, Bardas Xiphias, "Personal Names of the Aristocracy in the Roman Empire During the Later Byzantine Era - Family Names" http://heraldry.sca.org/names/byzantine/family_names.html#family_names, sourced without date to "ODB", presumably the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Since the article is clearly trusted, that should be enough to establish a period spelling.

The Greek version of <Thaddaeus> is Θαδδαῖος, which transliterates as <Thaddaios>. If that needs a citation, https://biblehub.com/greek/2280.htm looks good.

So <Thaddaios Kaloethes>, awaiting submitter approval.

Unfortunately, "No major changes" and "this isn't documentation" don't play well together.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 16:10:36
Ironically, Maloethes wouldn't shock me, replacing Kalo-ethes 'good character' for Malo-ethes 'much character', but without an attested form (which I can't find at Liddell-Scott) I'm not good enough in Greek to build something.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 20:14:05
I thought of that, but then realized our "mal-" forms are Latin. Greek has "κακο-:, Latinized as "caco-", instead.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-05-01 13:44:13
Different root word. Greek malo- is 'much', Latin malo- is 'bad', hence the translation to a word used for poop.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-05-04 15:56:12
As always, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and reading over what's actually there can be fatal. Thanks for expanding my knowledge a bit while correcting my error.

Maryna Borowska at 2019-05-10 05:06:49
Note that Thaddaeus is the submitter's legal name and would not need the spelling changed as long as he submitted ID (unless he desired the change for authenticity).

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-04-20 06:21:16
I also checked the Byzantine names at SCA and MNA without luck.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 11:57:57
Really not a fan of 'within' for bordures to begin with, and having the word twice seems excessive. How about:

Per fess azure and vert, a tree eradicated Or within an annulet of lozenges argent, a bordure Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:17:07
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's blazon tweak.


21: Thaddaeus Maloethes -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A lion passant Or winged argent

Badge Comments:

Vémundr Syvursson at 2019-04-18 17:30:37
All the fieldless cats look clear, but there is this:

Ker Megan of Taransay

The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 2000 (via Ansteorra): Azure mullety, a winged lion passant Or.

Fieldless is one DC, is having the wings a different colour enough for the 2nd DC?

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 17:43:53
Wings are typically treated as half the charge, so changing their tincture gets a DC.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2019-04-18 17:46:55
The mullets are also a difference.

Vémundr Syvursson at 2019-04-18 17:54:53
Given we're going from fielded to fieldless, isn't the mullety just part of the single DC fieldless?

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-18 18:30:17
Nope, it's removal of a charge group.

Vémundr Syvursson at 2019-04-18 19:17:51
Right, semy-as-charges. Forgot that detail, thank you.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-23 16:17:59
I am more worried about the emblem of Venice, which is basically <fieldless> a lion of Saint Mark. The arms are on azure, the flag is on gules. We have the arms protected in the O&A, but it is somewhat problematic that not everyone seems to know that a lion of Saint Mark has wings.

1: Image 1

Iago ab Adam at 2019-04-23 16:32:10
I would think we have a DC for fieldless, a DC for changing the tincture of the wings, and a DC for removing a maintained charge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-04-28 20:37:11
What the College has chosen to protect for "Venice, City of" (Jun 1995) is Azure, a lion of St. Mark statant guardant Or atop a base vert, forepaw raised and maintaining a book argent. So Thaddaios (see preceding item) gets yet another DC for no base.

However, in modern(?) practice, both the book and the halo come and go in different representations, as in the photos at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_of_Saint_Mark#St_Mark_and_Venice, which should perhaps cause a problem with the submission.

In any case, the wings seem to be perpetual, which is unsurprising: All the Evangelists' symbols have wings.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-05-02 21:51:19
It would only be a problem if period representations also have yellow lions with white wings. Since we typically consider wings half the charge (as far as tincture goes anyway), that's an easy DC along with the one from being fieldless.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-05-11 20:17:37
No conflicts found.


YIS

HL Villana

Asterisk Herald

Thanks for Villana's assistance with this letter.

Eirik Halfdanarson


OSCAR counts 13 Names, 1 Name Change, 12 Devices and 4 Badges. There are a total of 30 items submitted on this letter.