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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2019-03-10

Greetings to Ansteorran Heralds!

Here is this month's letter. My apologies for the lateness of this letter. I had a personal emergency that delayed.

1: Ellyn O Ronowe de Graye -Resub Name

Submitted through the Barony of Namron

Ellyn - http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Feminine.shtml

O Ronowe - http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml

de Graye - http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByGaelicRoot_G2.shtml

Name Comments:

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Arbalest) at 2019-03-14 15:48:13
links all work

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-03-19 09:45:31
I'd be more comfortable with http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_D.shtml as the link for the second byname, where the proposed form is immediately locatable.

It would also be helpful to list what source shows double patronymics in whatever period and kind of Irish name submitter is emulating. (SENA Appendix A is not directly helpful.)

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-03-21 19:56:01
This isn't really a double patronymic at all, but a double byname. It's a patronymic combined with a locative. Appendix A is rather vague on the combination of the two, but clearly each individually is found in Anglicized Irish.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-04-07 04:33:30
Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada is probably the needed "missing step" to show that <given name><patronymic><locative> is a pattern found in Anglicised Gaelic.
Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents: Women's Names in particular has:
Anabla ny Madin, of Bellafenton 1584
Eylyne ny Diermody Y Lerie, of Karrignekory, 1584
Margaret ny Kenedy, of Moynro, 1585

So that might be enough to show there's a pattern?

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-08 13:32:55
Yes, also need to point out that the link to feminine names shows MANY women recorded with O names, rather than ny/neyn/etc that we know to be feminine markers.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2019-03-22 10:42:31
docs check out no conflicts seen

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-03-22 14:18:25
The documentation for Ellyn says it appears 7 times between 1585 and 1601. The documentation for O Ronowe is found under Cormock and shows Cormock O Ronowe from 1599. The documentation for de Graye says it's an Anglicized form of Grae. Looks like this should work. You need to include what the documentation says, not just where it can be found.

2: Ghita di Giullino -New Name & New Device

Gyronny purpure and argent, on a sun Or a phoenix gules.

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Submitted through Bjornsborg

Ghita is found in Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427 by Arval Benicoeur. It is listed 7 times. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/.

di "of" follows patronymic naming constructs of Italian names. Found in Italian Men's Names in Rome, 1473-1484 by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada at http://http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Studium/Construction.shtml.

Giullino is found in A Listing of All Names Given as Patronyms from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna. Giullino is found 1 time. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/patroalpha.html

Submitted through Bjornsborg

Asterisk note: The form has purple on the gyronny, not sure why it looks blue in the scan.

Name Comments:

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Arbalest) at 2019-03-14 15:50:12
link for di does not work.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-03-14 19:41:01
No conflicts, docs check out, but the source for "di" I received "The requested page does not exist". It can be found at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Studium/Construction.shtml and says in part, "For example, in the name Pietro di Giuliano, the byname di Giuliano likely indicates that Pietro's father was named Giuliano."

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-03-14 19:46:03
Concerning "di", SENA Appendix A, Patterns, Italian, Patronymic "Marked (as di B), multi-generational, unmarked, Latinized".

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-03-21 19:59:05
Also, if you look at the parent article from Juliana at https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/, in the section entitled "Bynames" it says "Literal patronymics are formed by adding di 'of' in front of the father's name. Around 98% of individuals in this part of the Catasto database have a literal patronymic."

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2019-03-22 10:43:34
no conflicts seen

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-03-22 14:19:15
Docs check out.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2019-03-22 14:36:01
Ghita is also found 11 times in the Condado article, "A Listing of all Women's Given Names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427" by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith). This article is no photocopy needed. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/womensalpha.html

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2019-03-12 18:02:09
No conflicts found.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-03-21 20:13:35
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-03-22 14:20:08
No conflicts found.

3: Richilde zűm Hasen -New Name & New Device

Sable, a rabbit attired of stag's antlers and winged addorsed sejant erect within an orle argent.

Submitted through Bjornsborg

Richilde is found in The Lives of Saints by Omer Englebert on page 323. Https://books.google.com/books?id=gOHxVfJFitoC. It is also found in Chronicles of Hainaut by Gilbert of Mons on page 3. https://books.google.com/books?id=JK1pHrxn4zQC.

zűm Hasen is found in Mittelhochdeutches Namenbuch Nach on page 378. Found at https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_Y-BRAAAAcAAJ/page/n395

Submitted through Bjornsborg.

Name Comments:

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2019-03-13 14:18:26
(Someone forgot to close the italics after the blazon.)

What the Mittelhochdeutches Namenbuch actually has is ů, u with a circle above, not ű, u with double acute (which is part of the Hungarian alphabet and pretty much nothing else):
Růdolf zům Hasen Rufach 1270 Jahrb. f. Els.-Lothr. XV 26

Given that neither Rudolf nor zum normally have an umlaut on the u, this must just be a careful transcription of the mark often used above 'u' to distinguish it from 'n'. The CoA does not register variant letterforms, so the byname should be written as simply zum Hasen.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2019-03-14 04:31:33
Actually, in Middle High German it's usually a type of umlaut, not for a "ue" sound like ü, but "uo".

Eg. in Medieval Conduct Literature's introductory material, they note pp. 68-9:
(https://books.google.com.au/books?id=OB4QBy3LwbIC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=medieval+German+%22%C5%AF%22&s ource=bl&ots=s7LDuzPpOH&sig=ACfU3U1SWkecefxlW9t8ngjNNtY_TmUFpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy9cKWp4HhAhWO XysKHWc0AbQQ6AEwEnoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=medieval%20German%20%22%C5%AF%22&f=false)
"We have resolved scribal abbreviations and modernized letter forms in the following manner.... ů is represented as uo...."

If the College considers this diphthong to be a compound vowel character, then I'd assume it'd be treated like the regularly registered æ's and ü's of the world for "zům Hasen." If, instead, it's considered to be a scribal abbreviation that needs expanding, it would be "zuom Hasen."

Eirik Halfdanarson (Asterisk) at 2019-03-25 08:33:46
That would be me, I am usually better at that, but the circumstances going on while I was working on this letter distracted me and I missed the lack of a closing tag.

Emma de Davyntre at 2019-04-02 11:47:22
The umlaut over zum is züm, not the double dash, so I don't know if that helps either way.

I'm sure the client would be fine with however the word is spelled, as long as she keeps the zum Hasen as zum Hasen in one way or the other.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-08 14:04:38
I just did chapter and verse on the German umlaut for long vowels for an LoI, short answer being double-dot appears in hand-written documents before the end of period, but printed matter often retains the tiny e over the letter. Bahlow, s.n. Hase has "im Haus zum Hasen" dated 1293 in Basel, with no marks.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-03-22 14:21:17
Given name docs check out.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-08 14:17:27
Cited support for Richilde is insufficient. It does not tell us when this woman lived. Further, she is a "Blessed", not a saint, so she has been beatified, non canonized. I don't find her at Catholic Online, and they have quite a few of the more celebrated Blesseds. I find her here, under the expected Latin Richildis:


That at least tells us she died in 1100. It doesn't tell us if that was her birth name, and it doesn't give us the submitted form. Neither does this, but it's much better information:


Richilde is a not unexpected vernacular form from Richildis. German and French (as well as German and Italian) are allowed lingual mixes.

I would cite Bahlow, s.n. Hase "im Haus zum Hasen" dated 1293 in Basel for the byname.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-03-19 09:55:13
http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#default provides that for "Winged quadrupedal monsters", it's "Wings addorsed" by default. Our blazons seem to use winged before the charge name unless the wings need to follow because of a tincture difference or non-default positioning (e.g., as if they were here displayed). So slightly simplify to:

Sable, a winged rabbit attired of stag's antlers sejant erect within an orle argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2019-03-19 09:57:04
I find those antlers to be just identifiable at viewing distance. Does any other commenter find them unidentifiable?

Iago ab Adam at 2019-03-20 13:27:38
Just barely large enough, but I can make them out.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-03-21 20:20:12
Yep, they are on the skimpy side. It's right on the line for me.

Emma de Fetherstan (Temperaunce) at 2019-03-21 20:23:21
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2019-03-22 14:21:55
No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2019-04-08 14:13:08
Blazon can be much shorter. A winged jackalope was registered in 2016 as:

Cera Eiríks kona The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 2016 (via the Middle): Sable, a rabbit rampant winged and attired Or.

Therefore, I assume this can be Sable, a rabbit sejant erect winged and attired within an orle argent. I suppose one can argue that wings are more likely elevated and addorsed on a rampant monster than one sejant erect, but I would expect putting wings on a jackalope would be pretty pointless if you wanted him close.

In Service,

Eirik Halfdanarson

OSCAR counts 3 Names and 2 Devices. There are a total of 5 items submitted on this letter.