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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2018-09-03

Just a few submissions this month

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:34:53
Comments under my name are the product of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoimhin McKee, Sanglier Rouge Herald, and myself.

1: Angelina Francesca di Nardi -New Name & New Device

Azure, a tree blasted and eradicated sable, two triquetra purpur

No major changes.
Sound (Italian) most important.

Angelina - 1464 or 1548 Juliana de Luna Names from 15th and 16th Century Pisa

https://heraldry,sca.org/kwhss/2014/Juliana_de_Luna/Names_from_15th_and_16th_Century_Pisa.pdf

Francesca- 1458 TO 1557. Same source

Nardi - 1440 Sara L. Friedemann Names from Arezzo, Italy, 1386-1528

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/Italian/arezzofull.html

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-09-03 16:19:36
Docs check out. Angelina is found 6 times, Francesca 765 times.
This link for Nardi worked for me, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/arezzo.html Nardi as a family name is found two times but does not document the use of "di" with this genitive of Nardo.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-09-04 08:11:22
"Delle Historie Di Pistoia E Fazioni D'Italia", Volume 2 By Michel'Angelo Salvi, 1657, bk. p.422, mentions Bernardo de' Nardi Fiorentino (Bernardo of the Nardi, Florentine). In the margin he is listed as Bernardo Nardi. See image. This book was printed in Pistoia, Tuscany. https://books.google.com/books?id=mfc_AAAAcAAJ

An earlier book "Delle historie del mondo" (Vol. 4. 5: di Mambrino Roseo da Fabriano) By Giovanni Tarcagnota, 1580, verso page of 497 has Bernardo di Nardi. See image. This book was printed in Venice which may account for the dissimilar Venetian-looking name but that is only my opinion. https://books.google.com/books?id=KcVOAAAAcAAJ

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-09 18:47:17
So go with the name as submitted?

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-09-12 06:56:24
The Powers That Be will have to make that decision. :) I was told a couple of years ago that Italian is Italian. So, regional differences don't matter unless authenticity is requested.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:35:33
Given name docs check out. Can't open the url for the surname. Fortunately Maridonna's comments make that unnecessary.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-09-03 10:07:39
Blazon-fu: Azure, a tree blasted and eradicated sable between two triquetras purpure.

Maral at 2018-09-04 14:53:07
That looks more like argent than azure to me.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-09-04 15:45:54
Whoops, you're absolutely correct. So

Argent, a tree blasted and eradicated sable between two triquetras purpure.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:36:06
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's blazon as corrected.


2: Dalla Hróŏmarsdottir -New Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Per fess sable and argent, a skull and a lily counterchanged

Device Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-05 04:34:57
Oscar seems to be fooled by a typo, this is almost certainly:
http://oanda.sca.org//oanda_name.cgi?p=Dalla%20Hrodhmarsdottir
Dalla Hróðmarsdóttir, registered in May of 2018 (via Ansteorra).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:36:30
No conflicts found.


3: Ellisif Brynulfsdottir -New Name

Language most important.
Culture most important.

http://vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensnames.shtml

Ellisif - GB pp 9 ; Blondal pp 55

Brynjólfr - GB p 9 s.n. Brynjólfr; FJ pp 67-68, 343, 351 s.n. Brynjulfr, Bryn-, -ulfr; CV p xxxiv s.v. "Pet Names"; CV pp 668 s,v, úlfr; ; NR s.nn. BryniulfR/BrunulfR, Bryn(in)-, -ulfR

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-05 04:38:42
Simplifying:
Ellisif, feminine name, Geirr Bassi p. 9.
Nordiskt runnamnslexikon p. 51 sn. BryniulfR/BrunulfR mn.
The expected patronymic would be Bryniulfsdottir or Brunulfsdottir.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-09 18:48:47
So submitter ought to choose before it goes up?

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-10 02:17:50
Oooh, forgot a third option, using j instead of a consonantal-i, Brynjulfsdottir.

Submitter probably should be asked what they want.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-10 02:42:12
Would the submitter he interested in a later-period name?
SMP sn. Bryniolf (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Bryniolf.pdf) has on page 1:
Brynulf-, genitive, 1338, 1367, 1377, 1405.
page 4: Katerina Brynwlfsdottor, 1338
page 6: Arnuindus Brynulfson (Latin) 1367
page 7: Reidar Brynulfsson, 1377
I can't spot the 1405 reference.

That'd get her what she wants - Brynulfsdottir.

SMP sn. Elizabeth (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Elizabeth.pdf) has on page 1:
Elisif, 1303
Elisiff, 1413
If that's of interest, otherwise:

Lind col. 233 Ellisif notes that it's used in the sagas for the Norse-ified name of the wife of Harald Hardrada, Elisaveta Yaroslavna of Kiev.
But there was an Ellisif Þorgeirs dóttir ór Holti in Iceland, in the 13th century, mentioned in the Biskupsa sogur.

So for a wholly Swedish name, I'd recommend Elisif Brynulfsdottir, for a mixed Icelandic/Swedish name, Ellisif Brynulfsdottir.
(It all hinges on what language or culture she is thinking of, when she says language and culture are important.)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:36:57
Looks OK with ffride's comments.


4: Fíneamhain inghean Uí Fialain -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Fiona ingen ui Fhaolain(7/2000)

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound (given name (roughly, fee-NAWN)) most important.

The pattern for this name is based on "Quick and Easy Galeic names (3rd ed)" by Sharon Krossa, accessed 26 June 2018 Https://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

Fíneamhain is an Irish female given name found in "The Annals of Ulster AD 1379-1541" on p 168 (year 1446), accessed on CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts 26 June 2016 https://celt.ucc.ie//published/T10000C/index.htm

Fialain is an Irish clan affiliation byname found in the "Annals of the Four masters" page 976 (year 1452), accessed on CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts 26 June 2018 https://celt.ucc.ie//published/T10000C/index.htm

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-09-10 09:14:18
The name construction is fine, and these are better links for the documentation:

Fíneamhain is a middle period feminine Irish Gaelic name found in the years 1387, 1419 and 1446 in Index of Names in Irish Annals: Fíneamhain by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Fineamhain.shtml

Fíalain is a clan byname found in Woulfe under Ó Fíalain https://www.libraryireland.com/names/of/o-fialain.php. The presence of the italic form indicates that the header is a plausible 16th century form.

inghean ui is a marker meaning daughter of which was used in period.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:37:20
Docs check out, thanks to Pantheon.


5: Katheryn Crane Grove -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.

See attached docs.

I wish to have it "Cranegrove" but cannot find it as such. I will be grateful to get as written above. Cranegrove is a definition of a family name "Crenshaw". I added a page to show "Crenshaw" is period.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2343/2018-08-28/20-51-59_Katheryn_Crane_Grove_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2343/2018-08-28/20-52-00_Katheryn_Crane_Grove_name_doc_2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2343/2018-08-28/20-52-00_Katheryn_Crane_Grove_name_doc_3.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-05 05:05:04
Compound Placenames in English by Juliana de Luna has:
Elements followed by 'Grove' Arnoldes Grove 1551
Clayes More Grove 1610
Pypis Grove 16th c.

Looking in her source, A Dictionary of London Place-Names by A. D. Mills, these are <surname's><grove>:
sn. Arnos Grove
"Named from an estate called Arnoldes Grove 1551, Arno's grove c.1865, that is `grove or copse of the Arnold family'"

sn. Phipps Bridge
"Pypesbrige 1535, Pippebridge 1548, Phips Bridge c.1745, probably `bridge associated with a family called Pipp' (also recorded in other local names like Pyppis Meade and Pypis Grove in the 16th century)"

sn. Clay Hill
"Claysmore, earlier Clayes More Grove 1610, is to be associated with the family of William atte Cleye (that is `at the clayey place') 1274, John Clay 1420, so that even the name Clay Hill may derive from the surname rather than from the word clay."

I think we could form the placename "Cranesgrove" with:
R&W sn. Crane
Crane, Cran Osbert Crane 1177
William le Crane 1235
OE cran `crane', no doubt `long-legged'.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-09 18:50:40
Submitter should decide whether she prefers <Cranesgrove> to <Crane Grove>.

Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair at 2018-09-20 20:24:41
I talked to submitter, and she would prefer Cranesgrove.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:37:44
Agree with Gerard.


6: Keyna Morgan Oulton -New Badge Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 1991, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) Per pale Or and purpure an eagle displayed engorged with a baronial coronet argent

Old Item: Fieldless) An eagle displayed per pale Or and purpure, to be released.

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-09-03 10:19:54
Tincture comes after charge, 'gorged of' not 'engorged with', 'pearled' not 'baronial', and 'displayed' is the default so need not be blazoned (it also isn't blazoned in her registered badge, despite what the headmatter says):

An eagle per pale Or and azure gorged of a pearled coronet argent.

According to the Ansteorra OP, the submitter was made a Court Baroness on February 3, 2018.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-09 18:52:32
But for convenience of cut-&-paste, we do want

(Fieldless) An eagle per pale Or and azure gorged of a pearled coronet argent

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-10 06:50:54
Yes, except that the color is purpure, not azure.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-15 18:56:42
Indubitably--teaching me (again) not to paste without confirming. So:

(Fieldless) An eagle per pale Or and purpure gorged of a pearled coronet argent

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:38:48
Baronial coronets vary between kingdoms, so we agree with Iago's and Gerard's blazons of it.


7: Ragnar Kelson -New Name & New Device

Per saltire sable and argent, two ravens rising respectant sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.

See attached docs

Kelson is from son of Kelly

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2343/2018-08-28/20-59-33_Ragnar_Kelson_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/2343/2018-08-28/20-59-34_Ragnar_Kelson_name_doc_2.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-09-05 05:10:23
Richard Ragnar, male, christened 1630, England. Batch no. P00144-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5K3-XYL)

Georgius Kelson, male, married 1548, England. Batch no. M01115-4
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFQ6-8Z5)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:39:27
Docs are fine, save that we need not rely on the "late period surname as given name" loophole because Ragnar was originally a given name. It's been so registered several dozen times from 1976 to 2015.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-09-15 18:58:27
But did <Ragnar> survive as such until within 500 years of <Kelson>? I'm betting not, and the small stunt is much safer.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:40:06
No conflicts found.


8: Turlough an Gha Bhearnaigh O'Faelain -New Name & New Device

Argent, a bend fusilly cotised palin azure, and on a chief gules, three fleurs-de-lys argent

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Sound most important.

Turlough - Irish given name found in "Annals of the Four Masters" M1182.4 - Date 1182

an Gha Bhearnaigh - Irish descriptive byname found in "Misc. Irish Annals Frag 1" (Mac Carthaigh's Book) MCB1156.2 Date 1156

O'Faelain - Irish surname found in "Annals of the Four Masters" M1196.3 - date 1196

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-09-10 09:26:19
Turlough is an anglicization of Toirrdhealbach/Tárlach/Traolach, the submitter may want to know this.

the descriptive byname can be found here - https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/inGaiBernaig.shtml

The clan affiliate name should be spelled O'Faolain. It is found in Woulfe as a header backed up by italicized versions which are accepted as 16th/17th century. https://www.libraryireland.com/names/of/o-faolain.php

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:40:26
Looks OK.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-09-03 10:23:23
Fixing a typo and removing spare commas:

Argent, a bend fusilly cotised plain azure and on a chief gules three fleurs-de-lys argent.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-09-12 08:40:53
Iago's blazon works for us. No conflicts found.



OSCAR counts 6 Names, 4 Devices and 1 Badge Change. There are a total of 11 items submitted on this letter.