OSCAR Kingdoms: Ansteorran CoH Internal Submissions Page

[ ANSTEORRA Home | Ansteorra Heraldry | Ansteorra Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl|Trim]


ANSTEORRA Home
Ansteorra Heraldry
Ansteorra Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Ansteorra ILoI dated 2016-08-05

Greeting to the Ansteorran College of Heralds and friends from Vigdís Gráfeldr, Asterisk Herald. Our letter this month is brief. I appreciate your commentary.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:55:54
Comments under my name are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of just Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Anastasiia Dmitrieva Sokolova -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in January of 2015, via Ansteorra.

Or, four mullets two and two gules

Submitted through the Barony of Namron

Consulting herald Villana Palazolo

Badge Comments:

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2016-08-05 16:19:54
I found no conflicts.

Artorius at 2016-08-07 18:49:41
I also found no conflicts

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 15:30:51
Consider versus "Or, five mullets in annulo sable." (Scott Ó Caoindealbháin, Badge, Feb 1997). I see 1 DC for change to tincture of the primary charge group, but no DC for change of number from 4 to 5 per http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5E3 Does anyone see a DC for change to arrangement under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5E4 ?

1: Image 1

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-08-15 02:14:18
Nothing's going on that would force arrangement, and "two and two" and "in annulo" are in groups considered substantially different from each other under SENA A.5.E.4, so I'd say it's clear. (It's not just a DC. "A new submission that differs from a piece of protected armory by one of the following changes does not conflict with the piece of protected armory." Change of arrangement of the primary charge group is one of the following changes.)

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-16 23:09:05
Consider the reblazon "Or, four mullets gules." The mullets are in the default arrangement for the required type of submitting heraldic display, so "two and two" would normally be omitted. "Default" and "forced" are not equivalent terms, but IMO they're close enough to warrant discussion.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Blue Mountain) at 2016-09-09 19:49:32
On an undivided field there isn't, I believe, a default arrangement for four charges. On a quarterly field they would be two and two (one in each section), on a per saltire filed they'd be 1-2-1 (again, one per section). And on a per fess field or a per pale field they'd be two and two. However, as noted below there's a DC between four and five charges so not a conflict.

Clear of Morgunn Sheridan (badge, 1/1986, East), Or, four mullets in cross vert, with a DC for tincture oft he mullets and another for their arrangement. Nothing closer found. Also checked suns and estoiles, which get a DC but not SC from a mullet.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-09-09 21:34:07
I agree, Blue Mountain, that on an escutcheon there's no default arrangement for four charges - sometimes "2 & 2" and most other times "2, 1 & 1" on undivided fields in English heraldry at least. Probably not for display in a roundel either - both "1, 2 & 1" and "2 & 2" seem reasonable. However, on a delf display I'd expect "2 & 2".

Daniel the Broc at 2016-08-30 15:08:47
Changing the number from 4 to 5 is not a full Substantial Change per A5E3, but it is a DC per the chart under A5G: http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5G5

Combined with the DC for change of tincture, this looks clear to me.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-09-01 16:45:01
Concur with Daniel the Broc there is a 2nd DC for change of number (Could have sworn that was the chart I was looking at, but the url, as was pointed out, says otherwise).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:56:33
No conflicts found.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-08-30 16:09:37
I'm assuming that a dragonball from the same-titled anime wouldn't be important enough to protect....

1: Image 1


2: Danr Rauðarson -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Norse 9th-10th c.) most important.
Meaning (Roy's son) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Namron

Consulting herald Vigdís Gráfeldr

Danr

This name occurs in Old Swedish and Old Danish as Dan, and in OW.Norse as Danr. The name is identical with OW.Norse danr "Dane, Danish". Runic examples include the nominative form tan (8 instances), the genitive form tans, and the accusative form tan (5 instances). GB p. 9 s.n. Danr; NR s.n. DanR (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#d )

Rauðr

Found both as a personal name and as a by-name, occurring in in Old Danish as Røth, in Old Swedish as Rødh, and in OW.Norse as Rauðr. From the OW.Norse adjective rauðr "red". Rauðr appears very early as a personal name in Norway, and is the name of one of the original settlers of Iceland in Landnámabók (ch. 21). Runic examples include the nominative case forms rauþr, [rauþr], ruþr. GB p. 14 s.n. Rauðr; FJ p. 216 s.nn. Rauðr, Rauði; NR s.n. Rauðr

(http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#r )

The Nordic Names website (http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Rau%C3%B0r) lists Rauðr as an Old Norse name, citing Leiv Heggstad, Finn Hødnebø og Erik Simensen: Norrøn Ordbok (1997) and Lena Peterson: Nordiskt runnamnslexikon (2002)

Client wants his patronym to convey that he is Roy's son. He is comfortable with the derivation of Roy from Ruadh, meaning "red".

Name formation

Patronymic formation is covered in A Simple Guide to Creating Old Norse Names

by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman)

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/sg-viking.html

Name Comments:

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2016-08-05 16:26:39
The patronymic should be Rauðsson. Rauðr does not conform with any of the names whose endings change to -ar.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-06 02:50:55
Skraeling Althing is correct, Lind col. 849 sns. Rauðr notes in the Landnamabpk, the genitive case is Rauðs.

If the submitter wants something closer to "Roy's son," may I suggest the Old Norse name <Hrói>?
Lind col. 505 sn. Hrói has
<Hrói hin Skarpa> from the Landnamabok, in the genitive case, it would become Hróa, and hence Hróason.

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:04:06
Both masculine personal names Danr and Rauthr (still learning non-english typing) are found in Geirr Bassi's Old Norse Name. Danr is found on page 9 and Rauthr on page 14. The desired name is clear of conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:57:10
Agree with Skraeling Althing's comment on the patronymic. Given name docs check out. Rohese said that this made her think of Dan Rather, but fixing the grammar to Rauðsson should mitigate that. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-09-04 22:06:56
My brain immediately saw Dan Rather's son. I'm not suggesting it's a problem (except with my brain), I just found it interesting.


3: Francesca di Lucca -New Name & New Device

Azure, three aardvarks statant argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Submitted through the Province of Mooneschadowe

Consulting herald Thomas de Groet

Francesca

found in Italian Renaissance Women's Names

by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/italian.html)

Locative bynames are well established in Italian, and Lucca has a history dating to Roman times.

Submitted through the Province of Mooneschadowe

Consulting herald Thomas de Groet

Aardvarks are a sub-Saharan animal and are, by precedent, an SFPP but registerable. (LOAR Aug. 1999, A-Caid http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1999/08/lar.html, under Jamie Snawberd of Ross.)

According to the African Wildlife Foundation, the aardvark ranges through all of sub-Saharan Africa. (http://www.awf.org/wildlife-conservation/aardvark)

Also, aardvarks were known to Ancient Egypt and therby Ancient Rome. The head of the Egyptian god Set was depicted as an aardvark head.

Name Comments:

Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Aldyrne) at 2016-08-04 00:06:27
<Francesca> is dated to 1427 in "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427" (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/)

The byname <di Lucca> is dated to 1482 in my article "Italian Men's Names in Rome, 1473-1484" at the subpage at: http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Studium/BynAlphaExamples.shtml#diLucca

This example is a patronymic byname, though. It indicates that this person's father was named <Lucca>.

The particle generally used to indicate that a person is from a place in Italian is <da>. I have one byname example of <da Lucca> (in that exact spelling) dated to 1482 on the same page in that article.

I have a vague recollection that there may be some examples of <di> used, but rarely, with a placename in certain areas of Italy, but I can't recall for certain. So, if the submitter really wants <di Lucca> and wants it to be a locative, we might be able to find that.

From the examples I gave above, both <Francesca da Lucca> and <Francesca di Lucca> would be registerable, but using those examples would indicate that she's from a place named Lucca (using the <da Lucca> example) and has a father named Lucca (using the <di Lucca> example).

Thomas de Groet at 2016-08-05 14:11:15
Client will accept "da Lucca" as a byname if di Lucca does not have the desired meaning.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-08-30 09:26:40
What is her desired meaning? Locative or patronymic?

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2016-08-05 16:33:06
SENA Appendix A says about the prepositions:

Locative bynames in the northern and central areas normally take the form da X, but de X and di X are rarely found. Generic toponymics take the form della/dalla/dello/dallo Y. In the south, de X and di X are far more common.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-08-04 00:18:38
This summary contains no evidence that "Lucca" is a period place name, or that "di [city name]" is a pattern used in locatives in a place and at a time compatible with the given name. In short, no support for the byname whatever.

The source cited for the given name places it in 14th- or 15th-century Florence (in what's now northern Italy).

SENA Appendix A says of period Italy, "Locative bynames in the northern and central areas normally take the form da X, but de X and di X are rarely found." "Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names", by Arval Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek, includes the locative surname "da Lucca" (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14sur.html). Venice is in what's now central Italy (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/italian.shtml), so you could probably use that with the info in SENA to justify "di Lucca" as an unlikely but not impossible central Italian byname.

As a point of interest, "Francesca" is also found as a feminine given name in the article (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14given.html), so "Francesca da Lucca" is a completely plausible and "Francesca di Lucca" a probably justifiable Venetian name of that period.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-08-04 03:08:46
I don't want to nit-pick but Venice is in modern, northern Italy and Florence is in modern, central Italy.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-08-09 00:53:18
Dang it! I swear I proof read that, like, four times.

Thanks for the correction.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-08-06 06:48:14
Lucca spelling is found in "Il mondo e sue parti cioe Europa, Affrica, Asia et America" by Gioseppe Rosaccio, Parte Prima, 1596, book page 125. See image. Translated "Of the Toscani, Luna, Populonia, Lucca, Fiorenza, Pisa, Perugia, Arezzo, Bolsena, Sutri, Sienna." PDF url: https://books.google.com/books?id=1W5YAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Il+mondo+e+sue+parti+cioe+Europa,+A ffrica&source=bl&ots=vVw0y4q0Sm&sig=tDkQTzV8e86eGw0NTuLsOBjWkRg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigvMTh16zOAhX B7yYKHSTjCzMQ6AEILzAD#v=onepage&q&f=false

1: Image 1

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:07:04
No conflict found in the O and A.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:57:47
Given name doc checks out. If she will settle for a patronymic, the surname is fine. If she wants a locative, looks like it will have to be "da Lucca." No conflicts found either way.

Device Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 15:38:10
No conflicts observed under Beast-Anteater.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:58:43
Consider Matilda FitzRichard of Lochaven, badge reg. 1/87 via the West: "Azure, an anteater statant argent." There's a DC for the number, but don't think there's anything for anteater vs. aardvark.

Thomas de Groet at 2016-08-29 18:51:34
Per SENA A.5.E.3, the change from one to three in the primary charge group counts as a substantial change and is, therefore sufficient to clear conflict.


4: Kolfínna Egilsdóttir -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister vert and sable, in bend three plates.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Namron

Consulting herald Aibhilín inghean Daibhidh

Kolfínna -- Landnámabók, p. 135

Egill -- Landnámabók, p. 173

Submitted through the Barony of Namron.

Consulting herald Aibhilín inghean Daibhidh.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-03-02_Kolfinna_Egilsdottir_name_doc1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-03-03_Kolfinna_Egilsdottir_name_doc2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-03-04_Kolfinna_Egilsdottir_name_doc3.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-08-04 02:44:20
A documentation summary should summarize documentation. It's not that hard; just remember to answer, "Who sez?" and, "What, exactly, duz they say?" when you write one.

The scanned page submitted as support for "Kolfínna" appears to be from Valdimar Asmundarson's 1891 edition of Íslendingabók, er skrifað hefir Ari Þorgilsson: og Landnámabók (https://books.google.com/books?id=Tb1GAAAAMAAJ&pg=135). It contains "Kolfinna".

The scanned page submitted as support for "Egill" appears to be from Volume 4 of Valdimar Asmundarson's "Íslendinga sögur" series, Egils saga Skallagrímssonar, published in 1892 (https://books.google.com/books?id=1MEXAAAAYAAJ&pg=210). It contains "Egill".

If either text includes any information on the dates of the source documents or information on the editorial practices of their compiler (including whether he normalized the names in the text), it is in Icelandic, which I do not read. For the same reason, I cannot say whether the submitted words are names, based solely on these pages, and if so whether they are feminine or masculine. This severely limits my ability to evaluate the submission in any meaningful way. I imagine it does the same for most prospective commenters. That's why sources submitted in languages other than English are supposed to be accompanied by translations.

Fortunately, Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Viking Names found in Landnámabók" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html) is in English, provides information on its sources--including their dates and some comments on their reliability--and supports both "Egill" (classed as a masculine given name) and "Kolfinna" (classed as a feminine name). That, we can read, understand, and subject to scrutiny.



There is no support here at all for the construction "[masculine given name missing its final consonant]sdóttir".

But Aryanhwy can help with that, too. Her "A Simple Guide to Creating Old Norse Names" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/sg-viking.html) supports "[father's name in the genitive]dóttir" as a patronymic construction compatible with the submitted forms, and says that Norse masculine names ending in "-ll" in the nominative end in "-ls" in the genitive. That might or might not need to be sent up when the submission goes to Laurel; SENA Appendix A says that marked Old Norse patronymics require no further documentation, but it also says the suffixes for marking them are "-son" and "-dór" (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixA).

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-06 03:03:47
Yeah, Appendix A is full of typos, that are pointed out regularly on LoIs, but are never fixed. "-dór" should be "-dóttir."

In any case, we can shorten it even further, and use no-photocopy sources to boot:

Lind col. 704 sn. Kolfinna. Feminine name.
Dated to circa 1000 in the Landnámabók.
Lind col. 209 sn. Egill. Masculine name. Notes the genitive is Egils.
Earliest date given, with the desired spelling, is 1322 in Diplomatarium Norvegicum.

Alternatively, the other non-photocopy source is:
Geirr Bassi p. 12 sn. Kolfinna, feminine name.
Geirr Bassi p. 9 sn. Egill, masculine name.

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:10:31
I see ffride has already cited Geirr Bassi for these names, so I will just say that I did not find any conflict in the O and A.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:59:24
The other commenters have satisfactorily documented the name, for which the client and her consulting herald should be thankful. No conflicts found.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-09-05 14:48:29
The submission is Kolfínna (with an accent mark over the i), but docs seem to support Kolfinna (no accent). Is the accented version acceptable also?

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-09-05 17:59:08
Never mind, I think there's a typo on the ILoI. The actual form does not show an accent over the i.

Device Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 15:42:09
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 14:59:49
No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Blue Mountain) at 2016-09-09 19:54:35
No conflicts found.


5: Kolfínna Egilsdóttir -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Argent, a cock within nine mullets in annulo sable.

Submitted through the Barony of Namron.

Consulting herald Aibhilín inghean Daibhidh.

Badge Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 15:56:47
Seems clear versus "Argent, a cock close within a bordure sable." (Susannah Makejoy, Device, Apr 2000). I see 1 DC for change of type of peripheral, but am unsure if a 2nd DC comes for change of number.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-09-05 14:07:20
Yes, SENA A.5.G.5. grants a DC for changing the number of charges in any charge group. So we have one DC for change of type and one for change of number.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-08-26 06:17:32
These mullets don't appear to be in annulo. They're pretty strewn.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:00:10
No conflicts found.


6: Lauren Augustin -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

No consulting herald

Lauren literally Latin for "Of Laurentum"

Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854)

William Smith, LLD, Ed.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=laurentum-geo

From the St. Augustine website on the church in Hungary : Hungary was most likely one of the "founding nations" in the Order of Saint Augustine. This was because one of the groups that participated in the Grand Union of the Order in the year 1256 almost certainly had houses there. Athough this group, the Hermits of Saint William (Williamites) soon withdrew from the Order of Saint Augustine, their houses in Germany and Hungary, approximately twenty of them -- stayed with the Order. For example, the former Williamite house at Gran (now called Esztergom) was fully established in 1262. In 1290 King Andrew III praised its members for their exemplary lives, and approved a house of study there. Although historical records are not plentiful, Vito of Hungary O.S.A. is said to have brought to the Christian Faith more than 10,000 persons.

Asterisk's note : client is aware that allowing neither minor nor major changes makes it more likely that her submissions will be returned. She prefers to make any alterations herself.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-06 03:14:52
<Lauren Krauss> male, christened 1642, Bavaria, Germany. Batch no. C93804-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VH9L-8XK)
<Valtin Augustin> male, christened 1594, Bavaria, Germany. Batch no. C99690-2
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NCNG-N7S)

or

<Lauren Rho> male, christened 1575, Devon, England. Batch no. C05074-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWXD-VNL)
<John Augustin> male, christened 1598, Westminster, England. Batch no. P00160-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J361-V4K)

In both cases, the November 2011 LoAR sn. Lucian Artz notes:
"A change in language is generally considered a major change, which the submitter does not allow. However, a "change" that does not change the spelling of the name cannot be a major change, or even a minor change."
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/11/11-11lar.html)

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:19:55
No conflict found in the O and A.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:00:46
ffride's documentation seems to do the job. No conflicts found.


7: Maní Álfsson -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Molly Fagan(4/1998)

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Namron.

Consulting herald Aibhilín inghean Daibhidh.

Máni -- Landnámabók, pg. 166

Álfr -- Landnámabók, pg. 228

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-11-53_Mani_Alfsson_name_doc1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-11-54_Mani_Alfsson_name_doc2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-02/12-11-55_Mani_Alfsson_name_doc3.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-08-04 03:16:15
This documentation summary has all the same issues as that for "Kolfínna Egilsdóttir", found elsewhere in this letter.

The scanned page submitted as support for "Máni" appears to be from Valdimar Asmundarson's 1891 edition of Íslendingabók, er skrifað hefir Ari Þorgilsson: og Landnámabók (https://books.google.com/books?id=Tb1GAAAAMAAJ&pg=166). It contains "Máni".

The scanned page submitted as support for "Álfr" appears to be from Volume 4 of Valdimar Asmundarson's "Íslendinga sögur" series, Egils saga Skallagrímssonar, published in 1892 (https://books.google.com/books?id=1MEXAAAAYAAJ&pg=265). It contains "Álfr".



Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Viking Names found in Landnámabók" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html) supports both "Máni" and "Álfr" as masculine given names. Her "A Simple Guide to Creating Old Norse Names" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/sg-viking.html) says that Norse masculine names ending in "-r" in the nominative end in "-s" in the genitive.

There is no need to document the construction "[father's name in the genitive]son"; it is covered by SENA Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixA).

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2016-08-05 16:38:29
The submitted name has a typo. The documentation supports <Máni>, not <Maní>.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-09-05 18:01:44
The typo is on the ILoI. The actual form correctly shows the accent over the a.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-06 03:21:06
Simplifying the documentation to use non-photocopy sources:

Geirr Bassi p. 13, sn. Máni. Masculine name.
Geirr Bassi p. 8, sn. Álfr. Masculine name.

Alternatively:

Lind col. 758 sn. Máni. Masculine name.
Lind col. 14 sn. Álfr. Masculine name.
Notes the genitive form is Álfs.

Hence <Máni Álfsson>.

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:21:18
No conflicts found in the O and A.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:01:30
Other commenters have said it all, especially Coblaith. Should be clear of Magni Ulfsson: registered in August of 1998 (via the East).


8: Rozcia Georgette -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

No consulting herald

Georgette is client's legal first name; DL submitted.

Hungarian name order is (byname) (given name), as described in

Hungarian Names 101

by Walraven van Nijmegen

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/magyarnames1012.html#order

Client says : Rozcia is the name the SCA uses as a definitive Magyar name, it is also registered in the O & A.

Asterisk's note : client is aware that allowing neither minor nor major changes makes it more likely that her submissions will be returned. She prefers to make any alterations herself.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-06 03:43:14
Does the submitter mean the name Rózsa?

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:36:14
Unfortunately, I cannot find Rozcia in the O and A at all. This byname is not cited in the article submitted, although various styles of Rosa are cited as bynames.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-08-08 02:42:07
Well, that makes two of us! I couldn't see <Rozcia> in the O and A either.

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:37:59
Unfortunately, I cannot find Rozcia in the O and A at all. This byname is not cited in the van Nijmagen article submitted, although various styles of Rosa are cited as bynames.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:03:27
Agree with ffride; the client's spelling is not found in the cited source. Rózsa but not Rozcia is in "Hungarian Names 101" by Walraven van Nijmegen -- http://heraldry.sca.org/names/magyarnames1012.html#order

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-09-04 09:18:12
[Erroneous comment deleted]

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-09-04 23:08:33
Rozcia seems to get some modern hits, but I cannot find that it is a period form. Partly due to the language of the people writing names down, modern Hungarian spellings are unknown in period data sets. For example, the name, common in period and spelled today as Zsofia appears in period records as Sophia, Soffia, Soffya, and a number of other forms, ALL starting with S, not Z. Rosza was registered as a given name in 2012 based on a Saint Gabriel report that gives Rosza as the modern header and shows no period spellings with a Z in them.


9: Sean mac Daniel -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Seamus Ó Domhnaill(9/2006)

Barry engrailed argent and azure, on a chevron sable three sea horses Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Sound (Sean McDaniel) most important.

Submitted through the Shire of Brad Leah

Consulting herald for name Andreas von Meißen

Sean : Anglicized Irish forename, from the Gaelic "Seán", a version of "John". One instance, dated 1601,

Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents: Men's Names

by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien)

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml

Daniel : English and Anglicized Irish forename. 12 instances in that spelling found between 1598 and 1639, same source.

[Masculine Given Name] [Patronymic Byname Using Father's Given Name] is and Anglicized Irish name construction method (same source http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/).

<Given Name> mac <Father's Name> is one of the methods cited. <Given Name> m'<Father's Name> is the other, <m'> being a scribal abbreviation for <mac>, and appears many times in the above-mentioned attached documentation.

Submitted through the Shire of Brad Leah

Consulting herald for device Andreas von Meißen

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:03:54
Don't see any examples of mac Daniel in the reference given. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-09-04 23:20:34
If he intends the byname to be Gaelic, the prevailing spelling of the patronymic seems to be mac Dainiel, for which we don't have examples past the mid 1200s, which is problematic with a 1601 citation for the given name. Woulfe does not have any cited Anglicization of mac Dainiel (in fact, it doesn't appear at all), and Black specifically says, s.n. Macdaniel, Macdaniell "Incorrect Anglicizings of Macdonald, due to the faint assonance between Donald and Daniel. There is no etymological connection between the names." I don't see good support for any form of mac Daniel as a period Anglicized form.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-09-05 17:11:23
As an observation, <mac Daniel> was registered on the April 2013 LoAR without comment. The documentation for that submission (Quintinus mac Daniel) was as follows (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=27688):

<mc Daniel> from "Teige mc Daniel" dated 1641, in online study of 2010-released historical records of the 1641 Deposition. <http://phaedrus.scss.tcd.ie/1641/items/show/37846>, printout attached.

<mc> is treated as a scribal abbreviation by the College of Heralds. We have expanded it to <mac> at Kingdom.

Brian O'hUilliam at 2016-09-07 21:49:09
The link for the given name also shows Daniel as an Anglicized given name to 1599. Sean is found in 1601. The link for "mac Daniel" provides documentation for the construction of given name + mac + Father's name dated to 1628 (Garret mac Ferdoragh). Variations of this are documented to the 1590's and early 1600s.

Device Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 15:59:17
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:04:15
No conflicts found.


10: Thomas de Groet -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of February 29, 2016 as submitted.

Fieldless, a baton sinister counter-compony gules and argent

Submitted through the Province of Moooneschadowe

Consulting herald Thomas de Groet

Badge Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 16:19:00
Like the saltoral, the baton was used as a charge in period (PicDic and Parker), so there shouldn't be an issue of requiring a field to define it like a couped fess or pale.

The only conflict observed as the submitter's own Device "Azure, a bend sinister counter-compony gules and argent." (Thomas de Groet, Device,May 2016)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:05:02
No conflicts found other than the client's device.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Blue Mountain) at 2016-09-09 20:04:06
This should be clear of his device with a DC for removing the field and another for couping the bend.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Blue Mountain) at 2016-09-09 20:03:16
This should be redrawn so the baton isn't cutoff at the (non-existent) edge of the badge. A baton is simply a bend couped. I'd get rid of a single row of checks at each end. From the PictDict: The "baton" or "baston" was originally another term for the bendlet; but by the 14th Century it had acquired the meaning of "bend couped", and this is both its modern and its Society interpretation.

No conflicts found.


11: Virupakshapura Vidya -New Name & New Device

Argent, an elephant vert armed Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (Sanskrit) most important.
Culture (Early Vijayanagara Empire (15th c.)) most important.

Submitted through the Province of Mooneschadowe

Consulting herald Thomas de Groet

Period cultural name pattern is : Byname - Given name.

Submitter will accept major changes to byname, desires to keep Vidya.

Virupakshapura

Origin : alternate name for Vijayanagara, the capital city of the Vijayanagara Empire, specifically the area around the Virupaksha temple (in modern day Karnataka, the western side of the Vijayanagara Empire).

According to Hoysala inscription (empire immediately prior to Vijayanagara empire), "Virupakshapura" referred to the area surrounding the Virupaksha temple, which was once located in the Vijayanagara capital of Vijayanagara and now located in the historic ruins at Hampi. This temple predated the Vijayanagara Empire and, according to the New Cambridge History of India volume on Vijayanagara, there were residents of this area : "The road in front of the riverside Virupaksha temple extends for one-half mile and along its sides are structures of various sorts, some probably being public buildings, perhaps audience halls, and others being shops and residences of merchants" (Stein, 32-33).

Usage of place names as identifiers : In this period (reign of Deva Raya II, 1425-46), the vast majority of women whose names were recorded only used one name, perhaps along with a title. Currently, there is a naming practice in Karnataka that involves using the name of one's home/village as part of their name, often in the form of (Place Name)(Father's Name)(Personal Name). This practice is followed in both Kannada- and Telugu-speaking areas, which were the main languages of the Vijayanagara Empire. As a second name is needed for SCA registration and locations are used in registrations such as "of Mooneschadowe," using a period place name for my persona seems appropriate.

Use of place names is seen in the names of women in the past as well, though the examples I could find are technically post-period, even if they are in the same region. For example, there are two women noted for their poetry in Karnataka, though they are post-era examples of the early 1700s, when second names became more in use thanks to colonization : Helavanakatte Giriyamma and Tarigonda Vengamamba (Chandrababu, 232-233). Giriyamma was from a place called Helvanakatte (now in Ranebennuru), and Vengamamba was from a village called Tarikonda.

Vidya

Sanskrit epithet of a goddess; can be translated as knowledge or wisdom.

Vidya, sometimes transliterated as Vidhya, can be found as an epithet for Durga (or Mahadevi/Parvati/Lalita Devi/the "Divine Mother") in at least two texts : the Devi Mahatmya and the Lalita Sahasranama. The Devi Mahatmya is part of the Markandeya Purana, composed in Sanskrit circa 400-500 CE and tells the story of Durga's victory over Mahishasura. In it, "Durga is referred to as Mahavidya twice (1.58 and 11.21) and as Vidya (1.44 and 4.8)" (Kinsley 1997, 60). The Lalita Sahasranama is part of the Brahmanda Purana. In it, the goddess is given many epithets and number 540 is Vidya or "knowledge" (sometimes translated as "she who is learning").

Vidya is also used in other texts, such as the female being named Vidya in the Mahabharata, who is a member of Parvati's entourage, cited by David Kinsley as occuring at 3.221:20 (Kinsley 1997, 60).

Sources for usage of epithets as names: There is evidence from the period and region of women receiving as personal names the names of goddesses, variations of the names of goddesses, or epithets of goddesses. For example, Akka Mahadevi was an early female Kannada-language pet during the 12th century in modern-day Karnataka. "Mahadevi" is an epithet for the goddess Parvati that is still used today in India as a name for women. As another example, Gangadevi was a princess and Telugu poet later on in the Vijayanagara Empire during the 14th century. Her name derives from "Ganga," the name of the goddess and holy river that in the West is known as the Ganges. This pattern also exists in other areas of India, such as in the Kakatiya dynasty of the Deccan Plateau during the late 13th century where we find Rudrama Devi, born Rudramba, the daughter of an emperor. Rudra is an epithet for Lord Shiva and "amba" is a gender modifier.

Submitted through the Province of Mooneschadowe

Consulting herald Thomas de Groet

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-03/09-06-33_Virupakshapura_Vidya_name_doc3.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-03/09-06-35_Virupakshapura_Vidya_name_doc4.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-03/09-06-37_Virupakshapura_Vidya_name_doc5.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-03/09-06-38_Virupakshapura_Vidya_name_doc6.jpg
#5 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-08-03/09-06-39_Virupakshapura_Vidya_name_doc7.jpg

Name Comments:

Eglentyne Merryweather (Rivers Bend) at 2016-08-08 02:42:08
No conflicts found in the O and A. Interesting name!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:05:55
The support for the toponymic seems adequate, but not sure about that for the given name.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-09-05 00:06:01
She has a lot of assertions which I cannot find backed up in her docs. From the little bit I have looked into Sanskrit with respect to poets, it appears that bynames are sometimes pre-posed and sometimes following a given name. Since Sanskrit was used to record a number of different languages, you can't make blanket statements about much. I would like to see examples of names clearly showing that order, especially featuring placenames pre-pended as bynames. I think she has supported the individual elements well enough as a goddess name and a city name; god/dess names are incredibly common throughout medieval India, so I'm good with Vidya, but I'd like to see evidence of the order formation and the fact of a placename appearing unmodified as a byname. (And my brain made "Tupac Shakur" out of this one.)

Device Comments:

Thomas de Groet at 2016-08-05 14:16:36
Blazon-fu: Argent, an elephant passant vert armed Or.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-08-13 16:04:25
Concur with the posture specified re-blazon (There's no default posture for an elephant in the Glossary of Terms) by Thomas de Groet. [EDIT: The PicDic states the default posture is statant. Wonder which is out-of-date]

No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-08-29 15:06:48
What Thomas and Actuarius said.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Blue Mountain) at 2016-09-09 20:06:11
No conflicts found.


Thank you again.

Vigdís Asterisk


OSCAR counts 8 Names, 4 Devices and 3 Badges. There are a total of 15 items submitted on this letter.