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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2016-06-04

Greetings! This is a longer letter; please comment as you have time. As always, I greatly appreciate the time and attention of the Ansteorran College of Heralds and our outside commenters.

Vigdís Gra{'}feldr

Asterisk Herald

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:07:24
Lady Brigida von Munchen, Purple Falcon Herald, Lord Caoimhin McKee, Rouge Sanglier Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Agnès Olympe Fort de Nice -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Submitted through the Barony of Bjornsborg at Gulf Wars

No consulting herald listed

Agnès : <Larousse> p. 3 s.n. Agnès; a baptismal name and rarely a family name.

Olympe : <Larousse> p. 456 s.n. Olympe; a feminine baptismal name.

Fort : <Larousse> p. 252 s.n. Fort; surname.

de Nice : locative "of Nice". Shown on 1455-1494 map of England and France at

http://www.pitt.edu/~medart/image/france/france-l-to-z/mapsfrance/sf084fra.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-06-05 01:48:36
The documentation submitted for "Nice" seems to be a thoroughly modern map, and as such not documentation that that name was used, in that form, in period.

Luckily, Petro Ioanne Bompario's 1594 map of Provence (as found in the 1603 edition of Ortelius' Theatrvm orbis terrarvm https://archive.org/stream/gri_33125008677599#page/n169) shows "Nice" as the name of the city and the county.

1: Image 1

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 15:52:48
The pattern is double given name + surname + locative, which Appendix A permits in French, although double given names are found only "late."

Let's put some dates on these name elements.

<Agnes> is found in Family Search Records from what appears to be the French-speaking part of Belgium

Agnes De Ronsee; Female; Christening; 28 Feb 1599; Herstal, Liége, Belgium; Batch: C00416-8 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FVST-598)
Agnes Tousain; Female; Christening;30 Dec 1565; Herstal, Liége, Belgium; Batch: C00416-8 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FVSY-S5Y)
I believe we have a precedent disallowing the accent grave over the 'e' but I will have to go digging for that.

<Olympe> is a bit harder to find, but Family Search to the rescue again.
Olympe De Plaix; Baptism; 31 Jan 1619; Paris, Paris, France (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HJD-GQH)
There is no Batch number, but the original record can be viewed. The name is pretty clearly Olympe even given the handwriting.

<Fort> is a surname found s.n. Arnold in "Names Found in Commercial Documents from Bordeaux, 1470-1520" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/bordeaux.html) as the surname of Arnaut Fort.

Coblaith has already taken care of <de Nice>.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:07:53
Don't have Larousse, but Dauzat supports the given names and the surname. Coblaith's contribution sews up the locative. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 19:01:53
I have a problem with using Fort, which is a surname analogous to Strong, but is also a word used to describe a fortification, in combination with a locative. Fort de Nice as a search does come up, usually redirected to Fort du mont Alban, a period military installation (built in 1557). https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_du_mont_Alban Since she deeply desires a double given name (BTW the October 2012 precedent summary regarding double given names is entirely silent with respect to France, which I find troublesome, because I don't think I have seen a pre-1600 double given name for a French woman that wasn't either royalty or where the first element wasn't Marie) which is a late-to-post phenomenon, we should consider the likelihood that she would be recorded with a locative near 1600, which is practically nil. If Fort is meant to be an inherited family name, that's where it should stop. Note owing to this confusion, the overwhelmingly more common forms of the surname going forward are Lefort 'the strong' and Dufort 'of the fort', not plain Fort.


2: Ástrídr Mac Ailpin -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Geoffrey de Gourney

Ástrídr :

Viking Names found in Landnámabók

by Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html

Ástríðr appears 10 times.

(Asterisk : although the name is not written with an eth on the form, I have contacted the client to ask whether she intends to register it with the accents and the eth or without either.)

Mac Ailpin :

Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names

Patronymic Bynames using mac (son):

by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/ocm/OCM-PatMacByn.shtml

Cináed mac Ailpín year 860 52 Cináed [This person was the 1st king of Scotland]

Sena App. C allows mixing pre 12th c. Irish names with Scandinavian names

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 09:12:01
Unfortunately, this name is going to need major changes. By definition, Ástríðr cannot be a Mac- anything. Mac means "son" and Gaelic patronymics are literal.

<Ástríðr ingen Ailpín> is the appropriate form for the daughter of a man named Ailpín. "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names," by Sharon Krossa (http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#simplepatronymicbyname).

I'm assuming from the documentation that <Ailpín> is the correct genitive form, but Mari Aldyrne may have more recent information that the cited article.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 19:22:18
There is no correct Gaelic genitive form, because it's not Gaelic, it's Pictish. It appears in Irish records only in geneaologies of foreigners, and once in Keating's History of Ireland (!) as a feminine name. The Latin scribes in Scotland didn't know what to do with it either, and tacked on an ending to decline, so it appears in the nominative as Alpinus and genitive as Alpini. Concur that someone needs to inform her that neither Norse nor Gaelic bynames work as group family names.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 09:19:01
Also, someone might want to mention that Ástríðr is identifying herself as Oengus and Liam's sister, not their wife/mother/daughter.

If she is the wife of Óengus or Liam, the proper form would be <Ástríðr ben meic Ailpín>. I can provide documentation for that if that is what she really wants.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:08:23
Docs check out, except as Ogress has noted.


3: Augustin Haffner -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Spelling most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Geoffrey de Gourney

Augustin :

German Names from Nürnberg, 1497

by Sara L. Uckelman

known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/nurnberg1497.html

Augustin appears as a male name two times.

Haffner : same source; Haffner appears 25 times.

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/surnamesnurna-m.html

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-06-23 13:45:57
Docs check out.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:08:47
Docs check out. No conflicts found.


4: Diarmuid mac Brain -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Fieldless, a cloud purpure.

Submitted from the Barony of Namron at Gulf Wars

Consulting herald Villana Palazolo

(Asterisk : the name is on the May ILOI : https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingloi.php?kingdom=8&loi=3853)

Badge Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-11 15:39:22
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:09:02
No conflicts found.


5: Godric Delamar -New Name & New Device

Per pale sable and gules a twin tailed lion rampant with an embattled bordure argent.

Sound (see note below) most important.

Submitted through the Shire of Brad Leah

Consulting herald Kenneth MacAlister

The submitter wants the sound <Godric> and the last name <Delemar> and is not worried about time period, only the sound. Printed sources include Academy of Saint Gabriel, and documentation to show that the name pattern De La Mare was also found as <Delamar> in period as well.

Name construction pattern <byname> (Godric) + <locative> <surname> (Delamar)

Godric Academy of Saint Gabriel report 072

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/072.txt

<Godric> Academy of Saint Gabriel report 3250 Anglo saxon prior to 13th century

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/3250.txt

De la Mare Academy of Saint Gabriel report 1797

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1797.txt

Anglo Norman surname <de la mare> to include <Delamare> and <Dalamar>. Submitter would like the spelling Delamar but will accept changes.

Surname database : Delamar

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Delamar

http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/De_La_Mare

Submitted through the Shire of Brad Leah

Consulting herald Kenneth MacAlister

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/11-38-38_Godric_Delamare_name_doc7.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/11-38-39_Godric_Delamare_name_doc8.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/11-38-40_Godric_Delamare_name_doc9.jpg

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:10:39
Know nothing about the sources offered for documentation here, aside from the St. Gabriel reports. R&W's entry for Delamar et al. has many modern forms, but no citations dated from period closer than Henry de Lamara from 1130 and Henry Dalamare from 1385. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 19:32:19
IGI has a Godricke Hessell born (and died, poor lamb) in Lincoln in 1583. They also have a Gaspar Delamar (though original docs clearly show delaMar for capitalization) christened in August of 1600. Since he says sound is most important, Godricke delaMar is pretty much what he wants.

Device Comments:

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-11 15:44:29
Consider versus "Per bend sinister vert and gules, a lynx rampant within a bordure embattled argent." (Vanna Edwinsdochter Dawburn, Device, Aug 1994). I only see 1 DC for change to field.


6: Guillermo Pájaro de Escocia -New Name & New Device

Per pale sable and azure, an owl displayed argent maintaining in its talons a quill pen, in dexter chief a crescent Or.

No major changes.
Sound (G (long e) - air - m(long o) P(short a)hár(long o) day Es-c(long o)-see-ah) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Bryn Gwlad

consulting herald Self

See attached.

Guillermo Gutierrez Nieto

Cartagena census 1500-1505

Encarna Martinez Pajares

Cartagena census 1500-1505

Bernarda Pajaro

Baptized 1629 San Facundo, Medina del Campo, Valladolid, Spain

Father's name Bartholome Pajaro

batch number C87252-1

Juana de Escocia

mother of Diego Barbolla, christened 1587

in Ciudad Real, Spain

batch number C86466-1

Submitted through the Barony of Bryn Gwlad

Consulting herald Gui de Escocia

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/10-04-13_Guillermo_Pajaro_de_Escocia_name_doc1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/10-04-15_Guillermo_Pajaro_de_Escocia_name_doc2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/10-04-16_Guillermo_Pajaro_de_Escocia_name_doc3.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/10-04-17_Guillermo_Pajaro_de_Escocia_name_doc4.jpg

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:11:23
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 19:47:42
They know "de Escocia" means "of Scotland", right? I think that's a little odd where there's a family name, especially, again, close to 1600. Scanning IGI there does seem to be a noticeable shift from what looks like the perid form Pajares to the later form Pajaro, so this is a late name.

Device Comments:

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2016-06-16 12:06:13
No conflicts noted

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:11:41
No conflicts found.

Thomas de Groet at 2016-06-30 21:49:40
The crescent could use a little beefing up, but that's not a cause for returning the device.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 19:53:18
1 SFPP for displaying a bird other than an eagle.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-07-04 06:17:07
No conflicts observed. The submitter is aware an "owl displayed" is a Step From Period Practice.


7: Jehanne le Noir -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Geoffrey de Gourney

Jehanne : Names from Lallaing 1384-1600, by Domhnall na Moicheirghe (Donald Campbell)

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing_names.html

<Jehanne> is the third most common female name in this source.

le Noir : Names from Lallaing 1384 - 1600: Bynames

by Domhnall na Moicheirghe

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_names_bynames.html

<le Noir> appears as a byname 3 times between 1474-1494

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:12:31
Docs check out, but we're not sure if the epithet should be inflected to match the gender of the given name.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 20:01:03
Nope, the same article shows feminine ekenames using "le", and you'll note feminine le Pesqresse beside the masculine le Pesqueur, so "le" seems to be the thing in Lallaing. Adding an E, i.e. le Noire, wouldn't surprise me, but neither would finding the name as is.


8: Lekný in hera -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Lucian Ro(2/2011)

Per pale sable and argent a cony rampant counterchanged and on a chief azure a carrot fesswise Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Meaning (Lekny the rabbit) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars. No consulting herald listed.

Lekný : feminine first name Geirr Bassi p. 12

in hera : Old English <hara>. Old Norse <heri> - meaning rabbit, hare

Dictionary etymology for "hare"

Feminine "the rabbit" inferred from Geirr Bassi.

Submitted at Gulf Wars. Consulting herald for device Villana Palazolo.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-06-05 05:31:11
<heri> is a noun, meaning "hare", the form that appear as a byname in Lind Personbinamn col. 146 sn. Hiasi is normalised as "hjasi" or "hiasi".
<Hallorder hiæsi> 1327

ISLEX gives the modern term for a rabbit as kanína (http://islex.hi.is/islex#lleit), but Ritmálssafn Orðabókar Háskólans sv. kanína (http://lexis.hi.is/cgi-bin/ritmal/leitord.cgi?adg=leit&l=kan%EDna) gives the earliest example of the word in use to the 17th c., so I guess going with hare is a safer bet.

So <Lekný hjasi> could be a good choice.

The bynames using in/inn are adjectival bynames, not nouns (like the names of animals), so there's no need to include the "in", and as hjasi is a masculine noun in the nominative case, you wouldn't modify the ending.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:13:04
Given name doc checks out. No conflicts found. None of us knows enough to comment on ffride's comments.

Device Comments:

Grímólfr Skúlason (White Oak) at 2016-06-06 17:23:52
The legs are not counterchanged on the argent part of the field.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-25 21:58:57
Concur with the observation by White Oak.

Can the submitter be contacted to correct the emblazon. There's at least one current submission on an LoI that will likely be returned for this same reason - a small portion wasn't counterchanged.

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2016-06-16 12:12:53
The OSCAR identified conflict is not one. There are at least 3 differences between the devices. No other conflicts noted.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 19:30:19
Re-blazon: Per pale sable and argent a coney rampant contourny counterchanged and on a chief azure a carrot fesswise Or.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-07-10 15:01:09
Consider, instead, the reblazon "Per pale sable and argent, a cony salient contourny, on a chief azure a carrot reversed Or." The bottom feet are together, so I would call the posture salient, and agree with Green Anchor observation the carrot is reversed.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-07-10 18:13:31
Ack, yes, salient. Thank you. How did I miss that?
Still a coney, though.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:14:16
There should be a comma after the blazon of the field. The cony is rampant to sinister. I think the carrot needs to be specified as "top to dexter". No conflicts found. Agree with White Oak's observation about the knees.


9: Leota of Rutlandshire -New Name & New Device

Per fess wavy argent and azure, a ship with four sails gules and in saltire two threaded sewing needles Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Meaning (The byname should indicate a person from Rutland/Rutlandshire) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Wiesenfeuer

Consulting herald Grimólfr Einarsson

Leota : legal given name as allowed under DENA PN1.B.2.e. Documentation attached.

The placename spelled Rutlandshire is found in Geographiae uniuersae tum veteris tum nouae absolutissiumum by Claudio Ptolomeo, Giovanni Antonio Magini, Girolamo Porro, published in 1596. A copy of the relevant page is attached. The full text is available online at

https://books.google.com/books/about/Geographiae_uniuersae_tum_veteris_tum_no.html?id=329MJqlFYZUC

Submitter greatly prefers "of Rutlandshire" as a byname, but would find any registerable form that indicates a person from that place in England to be an acceptable alternative. "Leota of Rutland" comes readily to mind, and another herald suggested a Latin locative such as "de Rotlandia" or "Rutlandiensis" might work.

Submitted through the Barony of Wiesenfeuer

Consulting herald Grimólfr Einarsson

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/12-00-57_Leota_of_Rutlandshire_name_doc1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-02/12-00-58_Leota_of_Rutlandshire_name_doc2.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-06-05 03:52:37
The Middle English Dictionary dates "Rutland" as the name of a county to 1450 (s.n. underclerk http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED48205). It offers late 13th - early 14th century toponymics of the form "de [county name]" under South-folk (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED41890). A constructed "de Rutland" (or the vernacular "of Rutland") could probably be registered based on those.

I found county names using the suffix "-shire" (Oxenfordeschire, Warwykschire, Staffordschire/Stafordeschire, and Chestreschire are all dated to a1387 s.n. Stafford http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED42553, for example), but no clear bynames using any of those. There was one mention of a "Tomas Moston of Howden chyre" in a quote from c1460 (s.n. shire http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED39980) but I don't know if the final phrase is a byname or just information.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-06-11 08:01:46
A later book,_The Historie of Great Britain Under the Conquests of the Romans, Saxons, Danes and Normans_ By John Speed, 1623 searching for Rutland shows Rutland and Rutlandshire, but only Rutland when part of a person's title/name: The Earle of Rutland. https://books.google.com/books?id=nsw-AAAAcAAJ

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-06-05 04:03:15
"Leot" is a documentable 10th-century English name, just as a point of interest. You can look it up in PASE. http://www.pase.ac.uk/pdb?dosp=VIEW_RECORDS&st=PERSON_NAME&value=11380&level=1&lbl=Leot

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:15:22
The documentation offered supports the placename, but we agree there's nothing supporting it as a surname. R&W's entry for Rutland has Hugh de Roteland' from 1214, Simon of Roteland from 1245-6 and Robert Roteland from 1395. No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 20:13:51
Actually, for any place else, I might balk, but Rutlandshire has a complex history and it is ridiculously proud of its independence. (My cat was boarded there for six months, so I was there a lot.) I would not expect Mary Rutlandshire (though Mary Rutland would be great), but <legal name allowance> of <lingua franca of how a place was actually known for a good chunk of its history> does not bother me a bit. I think Leota of Rutlandshire is perfectly acceptable. We have cheerfully registered forms and spellings of places as lingua franca that never existed before the 20th century, so one that we can actually support in period should be a no-brainer.

Device Comments:

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2016-06-16 12:14:54
The ship looks to be an example of pictoral heraldry. Would recommend fewer sails or other design for the ship.

Matilda Wynter at 2016-06-17 00:09:48
IMO this doesn't rise to the fairly high standard we have for "excessively pictoral". it's clearly a ship, sails set.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 19:34:12
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:16:10
Very nice looking ship! Not sure the sails need to be so blazoned; I should think that "a three-masted ship gules" would be sufficient. Nice to see the needles and threads draw thick enough to clearly see their tincture. No conflicts found.

Thomas de Groet at 2016-06-30 21:52:22
I concur with my esteemed colleague. A three-masted ship, its sails set gules seems to be sufficient here.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-07-04 06:21:38
Concur with all observations made by Green Anchor.

IMO the emblazon of the ship, even with the wavy line of division, is not excessively pictorial.


10: Liam Mac Ailpin -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Geoffrey de Gourney

Liam is a late 16th cen. English surname, which may be used as a given name by precedent [Aton of Grimfells, 4/2010 LoAR, A-East]. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/04/10-04lar.html

Liam is found in the family search historical records as follows :

Joana Liam

England Marriages, 1538-1973

marriage: 1592 Elsworth, Cambridge, England

Batch Number M13053-1

The September 2012 cover letter ruled that family names documented in 16th century England may be used to create given names.

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/09/12-09cl.html

Mac Ailpin :

Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names

Patronymic Bynames using mac (son):

by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/ocm/OCM-PatMacByn.shtml

Cináed mac Ailpín year 860 52 Cináed [This person was the 1st king of Scotland]

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 09:06:40
This name as documented is not registerable, because it uses a 16th cen. English surname (as given name) with a 9th century Gaelic surname. In mixed language names such as this, the elements have to be within 300 years. These elements are more than 500 years apart.

Would he be willing to consider the Scots form <MacAlpin>, which is temporally and linguistically consistent?

Family Search has:

Donald Mcalpin; Male; Marriage; 19 Jun 1648; Kenmore, Perth, Scotland; Batch: M11360-2 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY3C-9BQ)
Mc- expands to Mac- for registration, because Mc- is a scribal abbreviation. Capitalizing the name as <MacAlpin> is consistent with Scots orthography.

I'll be sure to remember to provide more documentation for this at Laurel than "Alys Ogress says . . . "

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 20:28:46
I disagree with your expansion; most Scots records rarely use Mc versus M'; an Mc abbreviation generally represents a second /k/ sound. Black is very clear that late period plops a C onto the root name as in M'Calppin 1591, M'Calpyne 1569. Others:

Macalpyne or Macalpye 1548 M'Cavpy 1507 Mackalpe 1509 Makalpe 1511 Makcaply 1519 MkKalpy 1519 MacKalpin 1534 McKelpin 1507

I think the evidence suggests that a 16th c. Scots version of mac Ailpin would be mac K/C-something.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-07-05 13:47:43
There is a lot of evidence of Scots records using Mc-, as well as evidence of Mc-, Mak- and Mac- being used interchangeably in the same document.

The same 1466 Scots-language record refers to a man as Finlaw Makcowloche of Torhousis, and his two sons as George Mccowloche and Norman Mccowloche. (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1466/6)

A 1584 Scots document calls the same person both Johnne MacLowren and Johnne McLowren (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1584/5/72). Likewise, in 1585, the same surname appears in the same document as both MacQuhirrie and McQuhirrie (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1585/12/36)

There's evidence of Mc- and Mac- being used before vowels, including the vowel 'A' :
Hector McAlaster of Loup (1648) (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1466/6)
Alexander McAllaster of Glenevish (1646) (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1646/11/599
Donald McAllan (1646) (http://www.rps.ac).uk/mss/1646/11/599)
Colene MacAnze of Kintaill (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1579/10/6) (1579)
Finlay Mcallane (1579) (http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1579/10/6)

Given these examples, I think giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt that the Family Search record expands to MacAlpin is reasonable.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:16:34
Agree with Ogress' comments. Surname doc checks out. No conflicts found.


11: Oengus Mac Ailpin -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Geoffrey de Gourney

Oengus :

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/3369.txt

Saint Gabriel letter 3369 gives Oengus or Aengus as spellings before 1200

Mac Ailpin :

Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names

Patronymic Bynames using mac (son):

by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/ocm/OCM-PatMacByn.shtml

Cináed mac Ailpín year 860 52 Cináed [This person was the 1st king of Scotland]

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 09:15:14
Fortunately, this one is correctly constructed. Better documentation for <Óengus> as a pre-1200 given name is found in "Index of Names in Irish Annals" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Oengus.shtml), which gives relevant Annals dates for this name of 823, 879.

With 19 years between the given name and the dated instance of the byname, this might even qualify as a nice 9th century Irish name.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 20:30:29
Except that Ailpin isn't Irish, or Gaelic. I do agree this is the only reasonable one, though.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:17:27
Docs check out. Rohese found a conflict with Áengus mac Ailpín, reg. 4/04 via Calontir.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 20:32:48
Darn those O/A exchanges! That is an absolute conflict. Possibly just as well, since the family can go back and work up a better plan for sharing a family name.


12: Safiya Spizega -New Name & New Device

Purpure, three suns eclipsed sable between two chevronels and three roses argent.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for 16th century Ottoman.
Sound most important.
Culture (Turkish Ottoman) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of the Steppes

No consulting herald listed

Safiya :

Academy of St. Gabriel : Sixteenth-Century Turkish Names

Ursula Whitcher

Women's Names - Muslim Names

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ursula/ottoman/feminine.html

(Asterisk : shows spelling Safiye)

Period Arabic names & naming practices

by Dau'ud ibn Auda

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm

includes Safiya (Safia) [Sophia] as a feminine ism / given name.

Spizega :

Late Period Italian Women's Names: Venice

by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith)

http://medievalscotland.org/jes/Nuns/Venice.shtml#FamilyNames

Safiya Spizega:

SENA Appendix C allows combining of Turkish 1100-1600 with Italian.

Submitted through the Barony of the Steppes on a really old form

Consulting herald Emma de Davyntre

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:19:02
Docs check out, but an Arabic first name and an Italian surname are not going to give her the authenticity for 16th C. Ottoman Turkish that she asked for.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 23:08:48
This happens to be a very problematic Italian name. Another source for the citation of the name gives the full name as Francesco di Leonardo Spizega (Spizzica?). (He was convicted in 1502 of breaking into a convent and having sex with a nun.) There is a high likelihood that this name is a scribal error, because there is no Italian word that would yield that name, hence the suggestion of Spizzica, which means 'little by little' and is an idiom from the verb spizzicare meaning 'to nibble'. Since she asked for authenticity, but didn't mention why she picked the name or what she thinks it means, we can't even offer her something plausibly Turkish. I doubt an Ottoman Turk could even pronounce Spizega/Spizzica; I haven't seen /sp/ in Turkish. I sure wish we had a point of contact.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-07-07 05:35:24
I agree with Green Anchor and Adelaide.

To me Spizega looks Spanish but the byname is found in Late Period Italian Women's Names: Venice by Juliana de Luna, Descriptive Bynames. http://medievalscotland.org/jes/Nuns/Venice.shtml#DescriptiveBynames

Device Comments:

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-06-15 23:19:50
This submission (both name and device) is on old forms. It will get automatically returned unless the submitter can provide the submission on the correct forms.

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2016-06-16 12:19:21
No conflicts noted

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 19:36:27
Given the interruption in the blazon of the "eclipsed sable", should it be re-blazoned to "...three suns argent eclipsed sable..."?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:19:49
The blazon would make the suns sable. How about "… three suns argent eclipsed sable between two chevronels argent…"? SENA Appendix J says: "All designs with three or more charge groups on the field must be documented to be registerable. " This has three charge groups on the field, but is not one of the designs documented in Appendix J, so it needs documentation. We kicked around some possible changes, but nothing seemed to work. No conflicts found.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-07-04 06:30:28
Considered under the blazon "Purpure, on a chevron voided, between three roses, three suns argent eclipsed sable." this submission is allowable under Appendix J. However, that blazon violates the conditions for SCA registration of fimbriated charges and, possibly, layer limit.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-07-04 06:33:19
You can blazon your way out of a style issue.


13: Takaki Hitoshi -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Takeda Tetsuzo(8/1986), Tessa Tazzi (1/2006)

Sable, a preying mantis statant between three cherry blossoms argent.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Culture (1598 Japan) most important.

Submitted through the Canton of Haldtre

Consulting herald Cáelainn

Backstory on Takaki Hitoshi : German mercenary sailing with Dutch East India Company captained by William Adams to Japan in 1598. Upon arriving, natives noticed his height and exclaimed he was as tall as a tree. Captured prisoner along with others in the Company, he survived. They noticed how even-tempered he was, even in the face of adversity. Tokugawa took a liking to Adams and the other survivors and utilized their skills. With time, they were accepted into Japanese society since they were not allowed to return home. And some, such as Hitoshi, were even promoted to Samurai. This is how he came to be known as Takaki Hitoshi.

With Taka meaning tall/high and ki meaning tree, using this as a placename / descriptor in place of a family name since he has no Japanese family. And Hitoshi (meaning even-tempered / benevolent) as his nanori. Not going with a yobina and nanori since he was not of noble Japanese birth.

Takaki Please see Academy of St. Gabriel Report 2019 for Takaki (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2019.txt)

Inside you will find Takeyama meaning hawk mountain or tall/high mountain (depending on the kanji used). Very palusible that Takaki could be used as a place name as well.

Hitoshi Please see Japanese Formal Masculine Given Names

by Solveig Throndardottir and the Academy of Saint Gabriel

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/solveig/nanori/nanorih.html

for Hitoshi.

Submitted through the Canton of Haldtre

Consulting herald Caelainn

Name Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-06-05 03:40:23
Takeyama was registered as a constructed name:

<Take> : primarily 1st element meaning bamboo Name Construction in Medieval Japan by Solveig Throndardottir, page 160 (http://potboilerpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=25 -- no photocopies included with submisstion)

<Yama> : seen as 1st or 2nd element meaning mountain (same source, p. 143)

Takaki has not been properly documented and would not be registrable without that documentation.

I would eliminate the "backstory" as it is full of presumption and could definitely cloud the commentary without helping it.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:20:37
Given name doc checks out, but a persona story isn't sufficient to document the surname.

Vigdis Gráfeldr (Asterisk) at 2016-07-04 10:31:54
Comments per submitting herald : She & submitter are willing to eliminate backstory if it is unhelpful.

She also wishes to note that the kanji used is "taka" meaning tall/high, not "take" meaning bamboo. Also in the St. Gabriel report that was submitted, it states that Takayama is an actual place and that place names/descriptors can be used in place of family names. Would prefer to go with Takaki substituting ki in place of yama. Submitter is willing to try Takayama if absolutely necessary to help his name to pass. But only if absolutely necessary.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-07-04 10:46:44
We need documentation for both "taka" and "ki". The documentation given and noted does "take" and nothing for "ki". I'm not saying that Takaki isn't a valid name, but I can say it isn't supported by the documentation.

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-06-05 03:39:01
Reblazon: Sable, a praying mantis statant between three roses argent.

Katherine Coscombe at 2016-06-10 19:25:02
These blossoms are not barbed and seeded. While some cinquefoils fall into "heraldic rose" category, I believe that "cherry blossom" is a reasonable blazon for the flowers here. While there is no DC kind of difference for conflict ("For purposes of conflict, an apple blossom is no different than a cinquefoil or a rose (or other similar flowers). [Lukas Brierley, 01/2008, A-Atlantia]"), I believe it is a blazonable one.

"[A rose per pale Or and vert vs. Hirayama ( Hawley 27): Dark, a cherry blossom light] There's ...no difference between Hirayama's rendition of a cherry blossom (complete with five petals, barbing and seeding) and an honest heraldic rose. (Oriana d'Auney, July, 1993, pg. 17)" - specically address barbs and seeding as hallmarks of a rose vs other cinquefoils. The stripe & dot pattern on the petals in the emblazon are very characteristic of cherry blossoms, and are more in keeping with the intended culture.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-25 22:46:05
IMO an eloquently researched and reasoned argument to forward the blazon as submitted, Katherine Coscombe.

No conflicts observed.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 19:39:16
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:21:19
No conflicts found. Although we don't count these as different from roses, they may be blazoned as cherry blossoms and have been so registered as recently as 11/09 (Sakura'i Ha'name). Agree with Sea Stag's correction of the insect name.


14: Thomas of Eynsham Abbey -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 1994, via Ansteorra.

Per pale azure and vert, a raven argent, on a chief three trees sable.

Submitted through the Barony of the Steppes on a really old form

No consulting herald listed

Device Comments:

Grímólfr Skúlason (White Oak) at 2016-06-06 17:25:52
Reblazon suggestion;

Per pale azure and vert, a raven and on a chief argent three trees sable.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-06-15 23:22:29
This submission is NOT on an old form. It's on the correct v3.0 form.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 19:44:59
Isn't this one of the heraldic crow images? Not fluffy like a heraldic raven.
No conflicts found unless crows conflict with owls: Álfrún Úlfreksdóttir-Per pale azure and vert, an owl and on a chief argent three ermine spots sable.
If they do conflict, only one DC for type of tertiary.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-25 22:48:03
Since both types of birds are distinct period charges, there is a DC between them.

No conflicts observed.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 23:16:05
Yet we have filed armory by bird position and tincture rather than type. A raven and a crow, or even a raven and a hawk if both were close would still conflict, though they were distinct period charges. An owl, a peacock, a swan, and a few others have one thing about them that makes an immiediate difference, so I think this is worth sending on, but it's not a slam dunk by any means.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-07-04 07:50:17
Found the relevant precedent. Ravens/crows and owls are both in the "normal-shaped bird" category, which don't get SCs from one another (SENA Appendix M). The November 2003 LOAR cover letter referenced there says "Birds within a category are not substantially different from each other. They may be (but are not always) significantly different from each other based on the criteria in RfS X.4.e. Within the "regular-shaped birds" category, there is significant difference between an owl (close guardant) and a dove (close), but not substantial difference."
This LOAR references the January 2000 one: "In the future I expect that I will be more likely to grant difference between different types of birds when (a) [sic] they are (a) different in period, (b) in a period posture, (c) drawn correctly, and (d) there is some visual difference (i.e., there is really no visual difference between a popinjay and a hawk)."
So...hopefully a DC since both are in period postures, which would be enough to clear it.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:23:13
Agree that the potential conflict with Álfrún needs to be carefully considered.


15: Toryn Seven Stiches -Resub Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Bendy sinister sable and argent, in chief an embattled coronet gules.

Submitted through the Barony of Elfsea

Consulting herald Andreas von Meißner

Earlier submission <Argent, in pale seven bendlets couped sable> was returned on http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/11/15-11lar.html#Ansteorra_returns11 with these comments:

This device is returned for lack of documentation of the armorial design used. Submitted as seven bendlets couped, neither the submitter nor commenters presented period evidence for a large number of couped ordinaries used as the primary element in an armorial design. Additionally, the depiction of the primary charges blurs the distinction between a baton and a billet.

Note that while Her Excellency's name was submitted as Toryn Sevenstitches and is in OSCAR as such, it was registered and appears in the O & A as Toryn Seven Stiches (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Toryn%20Seven%20Stiches).

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1532/2016-06-04/09-29-27_Toryn_Sevenstitches_device_line-n-amp;color.jpg

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-06-05 03:42:32
Her Excellency received her County on 2016-04-09.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-11 15:55:19
"(Tinctureless) A coronet embattled." (Consider versus Society for Creative Anachronism, Regalia, Oct 1998, for Counts, Earls and Countesses) I see only 1 DC for change to tincture. No DC for arrangement versus fieldless armory with regards to arrangement.

Sara Penrose (Sable Roundel) at 2016-06-21 23:45:58
The Society registration is for regalia, not a badge. Do we conflict check devices against regalia?

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-25 21:53:18
Octavia Laodice. Badge. (Fieldless) On a county coronet vert a bezant.

"The roundel in this submission appears to be the sort of artistic decoration one would expect to see on a crown; therefore it is not significant enough to count as a true tertiary charge.

"Considered as (Fieldless) A county coronet vert, this conflicts with the Society regalia (Tinctureless) A coronet embattled. Registered regalia is protected both as regalia and as a badge. The January 1999 LoAR Cover Letter gives a good example:

"A pelican in its piety is protected as both a badge and as regalia, and so only members of the order of the Pelican may wear or display it.

"While the submitter is entitled by rank to wear or display a county coronet, or to include a coronet as a charge in her armory which is otherwise clear of conflict, she may not register armory that conflicts with registered regalia." (LoAR July 2011, R-AnTir) http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/07/11-07lar.html

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-06-25 13:04:04
I believe it is just considered a reserve charge, as long as the submitter is a countess, she should be allowed to use it. I don't think this a conflict.

Tostig Logiosophia (Actuarius) at 2016-06-25 22:22:16
Regalia, reserved charges, und so weiter

"At their October meeting, the Board of Directors confirmed that, as with titles and forms of address, Laurel King of Arms has authority over the regalia of the SCA-wide orders. The next step will be the codification and publishing of current regalia standards, which task falls on Master Da'ud's shoulders; I won't trouble you with that here. Instead, I'd like to address a point that was raised during the discussion of this issue: the distinctions between regalia, reserved charges, and badges.

"Reserved charges are perhaps the easiest to define: they are simply charges that the College has decided, for one reason or another, to reserve to submitters of certain types, ranks or occupations. Such a formal prohibition does not seem to be found in medieval armory, though there are some de facto reserved charges -- for instance, the only examples of the pallium are to be found in ecclesiastical armory. Items of regalia are not necessarily reserved charges in the SCA: for instance, the crown is both a reserved charge and an item of regalia, but the sceptre is regalia but not a reserved charge -- while the caduceus has been, for many years, a reserved charge but not regalia.

"Regalia are the physical tokens of rank or office, usually worn or carried on the person. Medieval societies regulated them, or attempted to regulate them, through the use of sumptuary laws; but they were seldom explicitly defined ("such-an-item may only be worn by such-a-rank"). One exception were the orders of knighthood: they often had such definitions, written into law -- the Order of the Garter, for instance, had its regalia carefully prescribed by law temp. Henry VIII. (Coronets of rank, on the other hand, weren't defined until Stewart times in England -- decidedly post-period. And many items of regalia, such as sceptres and orbs, were never regulated, because it wouldn't enter any commoner's mind to try to bear such impractical gewgaws.) Often, the regalia of an order also served as the badge of the order: again, the prime example is the Order of the Garter, whose eponymous regalia (a blue garter, garnished in gold, inscribed HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE and worn on the left leg below the knee) is also seen as a supporter of armorial bearings and an embroidered badge on cloaks.

"Badges are heraldic designs denoting property or membership. In the sense that they show membership in an order or noble rank, regalia can be considered badges; but though the two categories overlap somewhat, they are not the same. Badges are armory, and are normally used in an obviously armorial display (though sometimes made into artifacts, such as the White Swan pin of the de Bohuns); regalia are artifacts, and are normally used as such (though sometimes incorporated into armorial display, such as order medallions). Yes, there's some confusion, but in general, a person who registers, e.g., a spur as a badge does not then have a claim on all spurs used as spurs -- only on armorial displays incorporating spurs.

"This confusion arose in the most recent discussion because, back in June 82, the Laurel Sovereign at the time (Master Wilhelm von Schlüssel) also tried to codify and record the regalia of the SCA orders. He did so by entering them in the A&O as badges, that being the readiest option available to him. Over time, the original intention of the registration was lost: the items were considered, not just regalia, but badges to be protected, and eventually charges to be reserved (the first instance of closed chains being reserved to the armory of Knights was in Master Baldwin's tenure). It may well be that the regalia of the SCA-wide orders, once defined, should continue to be protected as badges, and reserved as charges; certainly, if the regalia for an order can be inscribed on a medallion and worn as a badge, then the regalia should be protected as badges. But those questions are separate from the issue of the actual, physical regalia to be reserved to Ducal, Comital, etc., ranks, Orders of Peerage, and whatnot. That will be decided in the next few months, and probably thereafter published in the Known World Handbook or some equally public forum." (LoAR Sep 1993 Cover Letter) http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/09/cvr.html

I don't remember what forum the results were published in, but regalia being protected as badges was upheld in the July 2011 LoAR cited in response to Sable Roundel above. I haven't found a more recent Precedent overturning it.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:24:16
Big improvement! No conflicts found, but after reading the commentary about regalia vs. badges, we're no longer sure whether or not a conflict exists.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-03 23:27:25
I agree this is much better, but I also think the return of Octavia Laodice is pretty clear. Two coronets in pale would be clear and just as nice.


16: Trian nat Caoihme -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Theron de Chênay(12/1980)

Vert, a sinister eagle foot couped inverted Or, a tierce argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (containing a historic Kevin) most important.

Submitted through the Barony of Bryn Gwlad

Consulting herald Gui de Escocia

Trian : comes from 100 most popular Men's names in Early Medieval Ireland

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/irish100.html

nat : traditional for "brother of"

Caoihme :

Index of Names in Irish Annals: Masculine Given Names

(listed alphabetically)

by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien)

(Asterisk : the only mention I see here of <Caoihme> is in this record :

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Caemgen.shtml)

Submitted through the Barony of Bryn Gwlad

consulting herald Gui de Escocia

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2016-06-05 04:20:43
I don't see any evidence here that anybody was ever named "nat [given name]" any time before 1600 in any linguistic context compatible with the given names used in this submission. It's not on SENA's list of patterns requiring no documentation (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixA), so such evidence would be required.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-06-07 15:58:33
Um, yeah. According to the eDIL, <nat> or <nát> means "arse" (http://dil.ie/32995) The eDIL gives the Gaelic word for "brother" as <bráthair> (http://www.dil.ie/6585)

This "pattern" was not found in my search of the Annals.

Where <Nat Caoimhe> does appear, it's as a compound given name of a saint. The most common compound name of this type is <Natfráich>; the eDIL suggests that the <Nat-> prefix in this context "may be a weakened form of niath (niad) gs. of nia `nephew'" (http://dil.ie/32996)

Mari's "Index" has <Nat Caoimhe> in the raw data s.n. Cáemgen (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Caemgen.shtml):

M584.2: S. Nat Caoimhe, abb Tíre Da Ghlas, brathair <>Caoimhghin ["St.Nathcheimhe, Abbot of Tir Da Ghlas, the brother of Caeimhghin"]
T588.6: Nath Comi [Note: name is in genitive case due to sentence structure.]
So, if I'm reading Mari's interpretation of the data correctly, Trian could be the son of <Nat Caoimhe>, and it would look something like <Trian mac Nath Comi> or <Trian mac Nath Caoimhe>.

Mari? Brian?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:25:18
Given name doc checks out. That for the surname has some examples of "nat (given name)", but I'm not clear that this is really a "fratronymic" form. Ogress seems to have this problem covered.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2016-07-04 00:52:46
First, note the submission has reversed letters and messed up the spelling. There is no such thing as Caoihme. Caoimhe, on the other hand, is worth discussing.

It may be time to reexamine the "100 Most Popular" article now that we have ready access to the Annals. I'm not finding Trian as a person's name (it's much more common, meaning 'third', as a placename) except in the Latin genealogies, which are kind of like the biblical "begat" sections and generally mean less like 1100 as cited in the article header and more like 500-600. I don't find a guy named Trian in the annals at all, which is troubling in trying to get a handle on the name temporally.

The unique example of Nat(h) Caoimhe is trouble, as he is not listed by his birth name or parentage, and Nat(h) Caoimhe basically means 'a work(poem) of beauty', which sounds like a devotional name. He is listed in the life of Saint Fintan first as Mocumin, which is a tribal name, then Natcaoim. (And yes, I'm speculating on the Nat element, but I don't think it's the same thing as the Natfraich example, as Natfraich appears pretty uniformly as a single word, where Nat Caem is much more frequently two words.)

I'm also a little worried about the vowel group <aoi> which isn't typical until long after Trian fell out of the naming pool (except for places, which it is primarily used for). Early spellings of the name element are Caem or Caom. The progenitor of the O' Keefes is from the 10th century, which is already way past both the time period of any use of Trian or the citation for Nath Comi/ Nat Caoimhe.

Personally, I think both of these elements are too speculative, but I could live with Trian if he went with a less speculative byname.

Device Comments:

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2016-06-08 02:36:21
It is a step from period practice to use a charge on the field with a tierce but it is the only one.

No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:25:39
No conflicts found. We also noted the SFPP for the charge on the field.


17: Zahira de la Sara -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2012, via the Outlands.

Per chevron azure and argent, in chief three suns Or, in base a sea turtle vert.

Submitted through the Shire of Brad Leah

Consulting herald Kenneth MacAlister

(Asterisk : is that "Azure, in chevron three suns Or, on a base argent a sea turtle vert" ?)

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2016-06-05 03:43:20
This per chevron division is low enough that it blurs the line between per chevron and point pointed.

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2016-06-08 02:32:15
The point of the per chevron is below the fess line and is also too high for a point pointed. This needs to be redrawn as one or the other.

Alisone McCay at 2016-06-14 19:36:24
I agree.

Aritê gunê Akasa at 2016-06-20 20:03:49
If redrawn as per chevron:
No conflicts because the turtle counts as half the charge group since the two different types lie on different sides of the line of division. If redrawn as a tertiary turtle on a point pointed (good period style would have the sides ploye):
No conflicts.
So it can be safely redrawn either way.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-06-30 14:26:50
Agree that the partition line should divide the field approximately in half, and that the present design is intermediate between per chevron and a point pointed. That also means that the turtle would be coprimary in the first case and tertiary in the second. This will need to be redrawn before sending it on.


Until the decision meeting --

Vigd{is} Asterisk


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