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Northshield Kingdom ILoI dated 2018-04-21
Greetings unto Baron Iohannes Glenfidanus, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield April Internal Letter. Comments are due by May 20, 2018.
1: Aigeline Li Merciers -Resub Name & New Device
Gules, on a chevron azure fimbriated argent three butterflies Or
Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (Late 15th c Burgundy) most important.
Culture (Late 15th c Burgundy) most important.
Submission History: Resubmission of July 2015 Kingdom return of <Aigeline de Fabuleux> (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=55130). Original submission was returned for additional documentation of byname.
Aigeline appears in a 17th c history of the Dukes of Burgundy, written by Du Chesne, entitled "Preuves" (1628, p 48). She was the second child of Duke Hugues de Bourgogne II, 1103-1143. Her name appears on an undated charter in that source. While the submitter's persona is late 15th century Burgundian, she feels it is reasonable to assume that a name documented earlier in period may have been passed down through familial generations.
"Histoire généalogique des ducs de Bourgogne de la maison de France", p 23 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=lUoPAAAAQAAJ&dq=Aigeline&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q=Aigeline&f=false)
Li Merciers is a surname dated to 1340 in "Étude d'anthroponymie picarde : les noms de personne en Haute Picardie aux XIIIe, XIVe, XVe siècles" by Marie-Therese Morlet. (non-photocopy source)
It is also found in "Bynames in Medieval France" by Sara Ueckelmann, p 142, (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/frenchbynames.pdf)
s.n. "Mercier occ. `merchant', especially a seller of fine textiles. le mercier 1292 Paris, la merciere 1292 Paris, dictus Le Merchier 1295 Picardy, Mercator 1292 Picardy, Mercerius 1295 Picardy, Le Merchier 1310, 1329 Picardy, La Merchière 1340 Picardy, <Li Merciers 1340 Picardy>"
The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:21:39
Docs check out.
Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-02 12:10:58
No issues found with name as submitted, construction, or its documentation. No conflicts found.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 17:28:38
The proposed device for Lucrezia Colze from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=52609, image below, was returned at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/07/15-07lar.html#62 with the statement that "the fimbriation is too thin and can be easily interpreted as a relatively thick drawing line, introducing a metal on metal issue." There were other reasons for its return, and the fimbriation problem was not explicitly stated to be reason enough by itself.
Nevertheless, I strongly urge a thickening of this fimbriation.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 08:48:33
While I concur in principle, Colze was sable fimbriation, which could easily be confused with a drawing line. Le Merciers is an argent fimbriation, which I don't think anyone would confuse with a thick outline.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-23 15:26:00
I suspect you are correct, Garnet, given everyone's knowledge of modern methods of drawing. Nevertheless, the tincture is not necessarily controlling for our Sovereigns. Consider:
Apolonia Zawadzka, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=70908. On http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/02/17-02lar.html#204, "As the fimbriation is so thin that it looks like a lighter outline line, we have the appearance of a gules fess on a vert field."
Ewander Maclachlan, https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=6392. On http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/08/08-08lar.html, "The 'fimbriation' in this device is too thin to be considered such."
I concede that in both these cases the attempted fimbriation is about half as wide as here. Submitter may be safe.
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:22:04
I'd say that the fimbriation should be about twice as thick as it is here. No conflicts found.
Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-02 12:15:57
As others have noted, the fimbriation is rather thin, whether it is worthy of just and artist's note or a return is up to you, but I'd say igiven previous rulings it is at least likely. No conflicts found.
2: Genevieve Macartney -New Name & New Device
Or, a stag trippant within a bordure gules, a chief embattled sable
Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Spelling (Byname starts with 'Macartne') most important.
Genevieve - DMNES s.n. Genevieve
f. (n/a) ● Middle French. Paris, France . 1455. HRAVP-3 p. 354 (http://dmnes.org/cite/Genevieve/1455/HRAVP-3)
Macartney - dated to 1588, "Surnames of Scotland" by Black, p 465, s.n. Macartney
Also, "Dictionary of English Surnames", R&W, p291, dated to 1588, s.n. Macartney
SENA Appendix C: Regional Naming Groups and Their Mixes permits French and English name combinations.
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:22:29
Given name doc checks out.
Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-05-12 10:56:01
Docs for Macartney check out. Actually both Black and R&W have Helen Macartney, 1588.
Black is searchable online at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011274175;view=1up;seq=27
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-12 11:50:01
Interestingly, Helen isn't directly searchable online, apparently because the name is hyphenated at the end of the line.
Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-05-13 03:55:52
Apparently not. After clicking on the p. 466 link I scrolled to the previous page and found the date. See image.
Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-22 13:35:35
As blazoned the bordure would be under the chief. Perhaps:
Or, a stag trippant gules and a chief embattled sable, all within a bordure gules.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 18:00:59
I didn't believe we allowed bordures that went all the way around rather than stopping at the chief. I was wrong. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1995/12/lar.html s.n. Ambrosius MacDaibhidh declares, "while, as Parker notes, the usual form is for a chief to overlie a bordure, sufficient period examples of the contrary were presented to support the bordure overlying the chief here." That device was blazoned, as Maister Iago suggests here, ... all within a bordure gules.
The successive devices of Theodora Bryennissa are perhaps instructive. From https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=16591 she registered the first image below, which was blazoned Argent, a hawk's lure and a chief engrailed azure, overall a bordure sable. Dissatisfied with the alteration of her submittted blazon at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/06/11-06lar.html with its statement that "tassels do not have cords", she changed to the second image, from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=20249, and the LoAR copied her resubmitted blazon of Argent, a tassel and a chief engrailed azure, a bordure sable. The disappearance of "overall" was not discussed there.
Nevertheless, I offer an alternative blazon of
Or, a stag trippant gules and a chief embattled sable, overall a bordure gules
as even more clearly retaining the current emblazon, assuming that submitter will actually want that less usual arrangement if offered a choice.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 18:09:11
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/09/13-09cl.html#3, "From Wreath: Bordures -- Can You Really Be Too Thin?" concluded:
In general, only when a bordure could be confused with a thick outline of the escutcheon, or when any charges on it are hard to identify, is it too thin. We will continue to register thin bordures without comment.
However, this one seems at the edge of acceptability. A bordure of about the same width in another kingdom's ILoI drew negative comment from several of us there.
I note that if the bordure stopped at the chief (see my comment above) it would be harder to "be confused with a thick outline of the escutcheon". And/or it could be drawn wider with a minimal movement of the stag.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 08:49:42
Regarding bordures and chiefs together...
In both period and modern heraldry a chief, when it is combined with a bordure, is not overlain by the bordure. In some older cases of chief added for cadency, the chief is added above an attenuated field completely surrounded by the bordure. More common, however, in both period and modern heraldry is a chief which simply overlies and truncates the bordure. [emphasis added] (LoAR 26 Jul 87, p. 13)
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-23 15:28:35
The 1995 precedent I cited is later, and in the part I did not quote acknowledges previous practice.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 17:46:23
I would like to see the samples... 1995 is too early for the letter to have been in OSCAR, and I have not found any in my brief searches this afternoon. Still, I could envision it in cases where a bordure is added for cadency.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-26 18:06:40
So would I like to see them, but no list is given. However, even Parker writes, "The bordure is placed over all ordinaries, except the chief, the quarter, and the canton, which invariably surmount it, with perhaps some few exceptions, which are in such cases to be specially described. [Emphasis added.]"
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:22:50
No conflicts found.
Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-02 12:40:16
No conflicts found. Yes the bordure is a little thin, but I believe it will not be ruled so thin as to cause a return.
Interesting conversation about the combinations of bordures and ordinaries, and in my opinion worthy of advancement to Wreath for perhaps an updated ruling, but since there is at least some historical precedent for bordures overlaying chiefs, and we register the drawing not the emblazon, I believe the submitter is entitled to that ruling.
3: James the Elder -New Name & New Device
Per chevron azure and argent, three escallops inverted argent and a cross of Santiago gules
Submitter desires a masculine name.
Meaning most important.
James - DMNES s.n. Jacob
m. (n/a) ● Early Modern English. England . 1526. WillsInv LXXVII (http://dmnes.org/cite/James/1526/WillsInv)
the Elder - from the Middle English Dictionary (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=byte&byte=48057670&egdisplay=compact&egs=48060513)
"eldre-man, elder- (n. (usually pl.)) Also aldre-, eldren-.
1. In the Bible or works derived from the Bible: one having authority in the community, orig. on account of age; esp. the elders of the Jewish people or of the apostolic church.
(c1384) WBible(1) (Dc 369(2)) Mark 14.: The hiȝeste prestis, makinge counceil with the eldere men [WB(2): elder men] and scribis, and al the counceil. (c1384) WBible(1) (Dc 369(2)) Deeds 15.6: And apostlis and eldre men camen to gidere. (c1384) WBible(1) (Dc 369(2)) Deeds 15.22: Apostlis, and eldre men, with al the chirche. (c1384) WBible(1) (Roy 1.B.6) Apoc.5.14: And the foure and twenty eldre men felden doun in to her facis. (c1384) WBible(1) (Roy 1.B.6) Apoc.11.16: The foure and twenty senyoures, or elder men [WB(2): eldre men], that sitten in her seetes in the siȝt of the Lord. a1400(a1325) Cursor (Vsp A.3) 5784: Gedir samen þin eldir [vrr. eldrin, eldest] men Of all þi folk of israel. a1425(a1382) WBible(1) (Corp-O 4) Ex.4.29: Thei gadereden togidere alle the alder men [WB(2): eldere men] of the sones of Yrael. a1425(a1382) WBible(1) (Corp-O 4) Deut.22.18: The aldre men [WB(2): eldere men] of the citee shulen taak the man of hir, and thei shulen beet hym. a1425(c1395) WBible(2) (Roy 1.C.8) Mat.16.21: It bihofte hym go to Jerusalem, and suffre many thingis, of the eldere men [WB(1): eldris], and of scribis, and princis of prestis."
SENA Appendix B: Types of Bynames: D - Descriptive Bynames: Permits use of descriptive bynames.
ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-04-22 05:52:04
Or, we can cite Lingua Anglica for:
R&W sn. Elder
Hugo le Heldere 1212
Ricardus ye Elder 1379
`The elder, senior.'
Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-04-22 11:43:31
"Ye" is a variant spelling of the Middle English "the", most commonly found in the north (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED45074). So "Ricardus ye Elder" provides a direct attestation of the desired byname.
Even if it didn't, though, you wouldn't need the lingua Anglica loophole to register it. "The" is an ordinary part of Middle English, and common enough in bynames that its use in descriptives requires no further documentation per SENA Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixAEnglish).
Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-22 07:40:34
Consider a possible conflict with apostle Saint James the Greater (one of the 'sons of thunder') who was also called James the Elder especially by painters,e.g.Paolo Cavazzola, and Cristoforo Caselli.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 19:25:34
Cavazzolo's work is shown at https://nga.gov.au/Exhibition/RENAISSANCE/Default.cfm?IRN=202364&BioArtistIRN=37006&MnuID=3&GalID=4& ViewID=2, with the title "I santi Giacomo maggiore, Antonio abbate, Andrea apostolo, Domenico di Guzman, Lorenzo martire, Nicola di Bari" which does not unassailably translate as "James the Elder". I cannot find an Italian title for Caselli's work. It may be relevant that the phrase "giacomo il vecchio" cannot be found in the Italian Wikipedia and that Google's first 100 hits on "san giacomo il vecchio" find churches only in Middle Europe, not Italy.
A Google Books search finds one hit on "james the elder" before 1650, which does not refer to the saint.
I note the title of Rembrandt's 1661 work seen at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rembrandt_-_Sankt_Jakobus_der_Ältere.jpg, "Sankt Jakobus der Ältere" without judging its relevance.
With that lack of period evidence, whether the modern English-language usage is sufficient to make the name <James the Elder> "recognized by a significant number of people in the Society without having to look [it] up in a reference" I do not know, and suspect it would be more than usually a call for Pelican.
However, are we allowed to consider the double allusion to said apostle, aka James of Compostela, in the associated armory, viz., the escallops and the cross, the latter being actually named after him? SENA does not have the rule that appeared in its immediate predecessor, and perhaps earlier rule sets:
Charge and Name Combination. - Armory that asserts a strong claim of identity in the context of the submitter[']s name is considered presumptuous. (RfS XI.2)Does anyone know if this omission was intentional? Can the ancient precedent at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1995/01/lar.html s.n. Cerridwen Maelwedd nevertheless be cited?
One allusion to the name is not considered excessive, two allusions may be, three or more is probably right out.Assuming there is any doubt, I hope the submitter will allow sending up his proposed name with his (corrected) proposed device to elicit a ruling from our Sovereigns.
Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-04-24 13:41:10
Given the name, the pilgrim's shells, and the specific type of cross, I immediately saw this as a reference to the saint; indeed it first struck me as a claim to be St. James.
Even if this is not considered a "claim to be" (I might have been too sensitive), it clearly a reference the CoA does not accept.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-24 14:56:15
I would be very grateful if Lions Heart would state under what rule or precedent the College clearly does not accept the reference.
Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-04-24 16:28:52
I'm sorry, I got myself completely turned around, back to front, and arssy-verssy.
What I meant to say is that this looks to be a claim to a protected (or ought to be) person--namely St. James of Compostella--through the combination of name, pilgrims' shells, and type of cross.
My apologies for not paying enough attention to what I was writing.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-24 18:50:47
And, as I note above, we no longer have that as a rule, only a truly ancient precedent.
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:23:24
Docs check out.
Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-21 23:56:53
This per chevron line of division is far too low.
Beatrice Domenici della Campana at 2018-04-22 01:07:23
I concur--way too low, and not low enough to be re-blazoned as a point pointed.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 18:10:51
Concur mostly to point out that its peak is below the fess-line tick marks. I think we can safely predict a return.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 19:23:53
[Name reply misplaced here under Device Comments. My apologies.]
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 08:57:40
This is not a per chevron field division, as even the tip of the point does not cross the fess line. This might be small enough to be called a point pointed, making the escallops the sole primaries. Recommend reblazon, Azure, in chief three escallops in fess inverted and on a point pointed argent a cross of Santiago gules. Mistholme states, "The sides are properly drawn with concave sides, but there is one period example with flat sides - the canting arms (Portuguese canto, "corner") of Canto or Docanto, c.1540 [Nobreza xxxviiº] - so the concavity of the sides is left to the artist."
I have not checked this for conflict.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-23 15:47:49
I do not dispute the straight sides, but I dispute calling any segment this large a point. It may be possible. However, the first three instances below are the tallest I was able to find registered when I last looked through OSCAR for that purpose. They are respectively for Briony Kortsdottir from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=68742, Cecile de Perches from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=31029, and Marthe Elsbeth of Oak Hill from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=4786.
The fourth image, for Dagmær Nilsdóttir from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=74392, was returned at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/06/17-06lar.html#316 "for blurring the distinction between charge groups. ... points pointed are peripheral ordinaries by definition."
1: 2: 3: 4:
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:24:54
Agree about the misplacement of the partition line. The two strong references to St. James make it unregistrably presumptuous in my opinion.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-27 08:25:15
I assume you are referring to the attributed arms of Saint James the Greater (also called James the Elder)... Azure, on an escallop inverted argent a cross of Santiago gules. We don't appear to protect the attributed arms of the apostles, but I would agree that it presumes in this case.
4: Jararvellir, Barony of -New Badge
OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 1981, via the Middle.
Azure, a barbel contourney Or within an orle of six gouts argent and an embattled bordure Or
Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-21 23:57:25
The embattlements should be about twice as deep.
Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2018-04-22 18:11:08
Would that not make the bordure quite wide? Just asking, because I want to be prepared when I go to the submitter.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-22 19:30:48
The problem isn't so much the depth of these embattlements as that their width is so much greater than their depth. The best heraldic embattlements are square (unlike those on physical castles). Making the embattlements half again as deep and two-thirds as wide--and a little more numerous--would probably work well without impinging greatly on the charges.
Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-22 13:42:04
Fixing the spelling of 'contourny', and changing the order a bit to match previous registrations of a charge surrounded by a numbered orle of charges, and moving 'embattled' to after 'bordure':
Azure, a barbel contourny Or between six gouts in orle argent, a bordure embattled Or.
Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2018-04-22 18:11:58
One of these times I will spell it correctly the first time around.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 09:00:21
There may be an issue with the fish intruding into the line of the orle. Because the head and tail go "between" the gouttes, the appearance is more of goutty d'eau than an orle of six gouttes.
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-23 16:05:25
I offer an analogy from http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2006/02/06-02lar.html s.n. Janina Krakowska:
Because a bordure denticulada is a type of embattled bordure, the spaces between the embattlements are part of the field. A charge on the field may extend into the space between the embattlements without overlying the bordure, just as charges are routinely drawn as extending into the spaces between the indentations of an indented chief without overlying the chief.If I were arguing for goutty d'eau, I would feel six gouts a miserly allowance, and would want them not to be placed so clearly in orle.
Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-23 17:39:49
Ah, but by intruding into the line of the orle, the primary is effectively dividing them into "three in chief" and "three in base".
Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-23 18:34:32
Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-26 11:25:36
Agree with Iago's reblazon. Also agree that the embattled line needs to be fixed. No conflicts found.
5: Mathghamhain Williams -Resub Name
Submitter desires a masculine name.
Submission History This is a resubmission of a return from the February 2018 Northshield Kingdom LoI. <Mathghamhain mac Douglase> was returned because of issues with the byname. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=83382)
Mathghamhain - Early Modern Irish Gaelic (c1200-c1700) nominative form found in Index of Names in Irish Annals: Mathgamain / Mathghamhain by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) (https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Mathgamain.shtml)
Williams - is dated in the 16th c and found in "Surnames of Members of the Frobisher Voyages (sorted by frequency)" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien) (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Frobisher/SurnamesFreq4.shtml) There is no clear indication of country of origin, however SENA Appendix C does permit mixing of Early Modern Irish Gaelic names with English/Welsh, Scandinavian, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic to name a few.
Thus ends the April Internal Letter for Northshield.
In service to Northshield & the College of Arms
Mistress Mira Fastova
OSCAR counts 4 Names, 3 Devices and 1 Badge. There are a total of 8 items submitted on this letter.