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Northshield ILoI dated 2017-04-22

Greetings unto Honourable Lady Merideth NiShionniach, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield April Internal Letter. Comments are due by May 20, 2017.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-26 12:52:16
Comments under my name represent the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoihmin McKee, Rouge Sanglier Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, Lady Eimear de Culfre, Deodar Seneschale, and myself.

1: Avonwood, Shire of -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Northshield LoI of July 27, 2016 as submitted.

Per fess wavy Or and azure, an oak tree couped and a laurel wreath counterchanged

Submission History: This branch device was returned from the Northshield kingdom letter for a redraw in March 2017. Commentors indicated that it was difficult to identify the tree as an oak. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=73746)

This branch name and device were returned for lack of a valid petition on the October 2016 LOAR, via Northshield. Although it had the required number of signatures, it lacked a date on the petition form. (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=66443)

A petition declaring support for this device, dated and signed by the members and officers of this group, is included with this submission.

The branch name was resubmitted on the March 2017 Northshield kingdom letter.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-23 23:09:42
Now it's an oak.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-26 12:53:32
If the partition line were lowered to the half-way point, the tree and the wreath could be drawn more nearly the same size. No conflicts found.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-26 17:35:03
Has the Shire seen this?

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-04-27 11:23:55
I will share it with them.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:32:22
Appears clear from conflict.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 08:08:43
No conflicts found


2: Deonysia de Rye -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Northshield.

Per chevron azure semy of wheat stalks Or and argent, a sea dragon azure and a bordure counterchanged argent and azure

Submission History: Device was returned for redraw from Northshield kingdom letter in July 2015. Commentors indicated a recognizability issue with the wheat stalks. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=54074)

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-23 23:14:25
I believe the wheat is now adequate.

Because the bordure is counterchanged of the field, the blazon can be shorter. And since we're allowed an extra clarifying comma or two for such fields, let's use one:

Per chevron azure semy of wheat stalks Or, and argent, a sea dragon azure and a bordure counterchanged

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-26 12:54:59
Agree with Gerard's blazon tweak. No conflicts found.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:33:02
Appears clear from conflict.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 08:10:57
no conflict found with the corrected blazon " Per chevron azure semy of wheat stalks Or, and argent, a sea dragon azure and a bordure counterchanged"


3: Margaret Fitzwilliam of Kent and Edwin atte Bridge -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name (Margaret Fitzwilliam of Kent) registered exactly as it appears in October of 1998, via the Middle.
OSCAR finds the name (Edwin atte Bridge) registered exactly as it appears in June of 1998, via the Middle.

Azure, two hedgehogs combatant maintaining between them a candle argent flammant Or within a bordure argent

This badge is jointly owned

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-23 23:16:24
That the candle is flammant is just about visible from a suitable distance. That it is flammant Or is not. The flame needs either to have its size enlarged--I think about doubled would work--or be argent like everything else.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-26 12:55:28
Agree that the candle flame needs to be a bit larger. No conflicts found.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-04-27 11:28:59
Submitter will be making that modification.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:33:15
Appears clear from conflict.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 08:11:43
no conflicts found


4: Tyok Liftfot -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2016, via Northshield.

(Fieldless) An Oriental dragon's head cabossed azure

Submission History: This badge was returned for redraw, for violating SENA A2C2 which states "Elements must be drawn to be identifiable" on the September 2016 LOAR, via Northshield. (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=65514)

With this resubmission, the submitter has included documentation showing a 15th century Chinese dragon on a carved lacquer box. (http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2016/04/02/33604885.html)

Images below.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1123/2017-04-20/18-29-44_Dragon_Image_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1123/2017-04-20/18-29-44_Dragon_Image_2.JPG
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1123/2017-04-20/18-29-44_Dragon_Image_3.JPG

Badge Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-04-23 07:00:43
I think the entire text of the return may be relevant:
"This device is returned for redraw, for violating SENA A2C2 which states "Elements must be drawn to be identifiable." Commenters had trouble identifying the dragon's head, potentially mistaking it for a demon's head. It might be difficult to achieve recognizability without the rest of the dragon's body."

The "Nine Dragons" scroll (九龍圖卷) at the Museum of Fine Art, Boston, is dated 1244, and I suspect gives us a depiction closer to the head here (Image 1).
(http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/nine-dragons-28526)
However, it, like the lacquered box, still relies on the dragon having a body to make it clear that it is a dragon.



I also found a couple of roof finials (but none photographed front-on) which implies that body-less dragons were identifiable as such:
Pair of Architectural Terminals, 16th century, China. The Walters Art Museum, accession number VO.97 (49.2378, 49.2379) (http://art.thewalters.org/detail/78073/pair-of-architectural-terminals/) (Image 2).

Roof-ridge ornament, Yuan dynasty (1271-1368) China. Shanxi Provincial Museum.
(http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/karlins/khubilai-khan-at-metropolitan11-23-10_detail.asp?p icnum=10)(Image 3)

Roof-ridge ornament, Western Xia dynasty (1038 - 1227) China. Yinchuan West Xia Imperial Tombs, Xixia Wangling.
(http://www.nxxwl.com/upload/images/2015/6/701247529.jpg) (Image 4)

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-23 23:38:55
I am quite certain that the entire text of the return is relevant. And I am not in sympathy with it.

In European mythology/demonology, demons have a wide variety of attributes and moreover are well known to be shape shifters. Thus to require a depiction of a head to be indisputably that of an Oriental dragon and not an Occidental demon is, I think, to require the impossible. (Although (Fieldless) In pale an Oriental dragon's head cabossed azure conjoined to a cloud argent might perhaps be enough to tip the balance of commenters.)

I beg our Sovereigns to instead use http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A1C as their yardstick: "the submitted emblazon must be reproducible by a competent heraldic artist, with only normal heraldic variation, from the written blazon." Applying that criterion, something very like the submitted emblazon is going to be the result any time.

Otherwise the submitter may use the submission as his unregisterable badge with the confidence that while it is not protected, no one else will ever be able to register a competitor.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:42:44
We definitely allow the use of heraldic charges from Asian cultures with a SFPP under SENA A2B4a. Was a dragon head (not the whole dragon) used in Asian heraldry? The section of SENA relating to non-European items extends strictly to flora, fauna and armorial elements. I know we can document the use of the full dragon but.... We really need to comb those Asian armorials.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-26 12:57:56
It's not entirely clear to us why the image wasn't considered identifiable. The images presented with this submission do support the rendering. An Oriental dragon's head has been registered at least once before: Raymond de Caen's badge was registered 8/97 via the East as "(Fieldless) On an estoile purpure a Chinese dragon's head couped contourny Or." Haven't found the emblazon for that one to compare.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-26 23:30:53
Since you don't say you or your group have already done so, I've requested the emblazon from our archivist at heraldry.sca.org. There may well be greater delay in my posting it than in my receiving it.

Brunissende Dragonette (Wreath) at 2017-04-27 09:58:15
This link to the amount of commentary for the previous submission http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=65514

As for the 1997 registration, we've been pretty clear since SENA was implemented that registration more than 10 years old are not indicative of the regsiterability of charges.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-27 13:08:15
True, but nothing prevents drawing inspiration and/or lessons from previous registrations. At any rate, here it is.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-04-27 18:43:34
Even if this were more recent, it wouldn't be much help in deciding what to do with the current submission. Too bad.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-04-27 13:45:35
The commentary there is not visible to me, nor perhaps to some others here.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:36:15
Appears clear from conflict.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-04-28 03:36:58
This does not appear to be a resubmission. It looks like an appeal to Laurel because nothing in the emblazon has been changed.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 08:13:22
not seeing any conflict (this looks like an appeal to me )


Thus ends the April Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 2 Devices and 2 Badges. There are a total of 4 items submitted on this letter.