OSCAR Kingdoms: The Northshield College of Heralds

[ NORTHSHIELD Home | Northshield Heraldry | Northshield Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Anst|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Outl|Trim]


NORTHSHIELD Home
Northshield Heraldry
Northshield Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Northshield ILoI dated 2016-11-22

Greetings unto Honourable Lady Merideth NiShionniach, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield November Internal Letter. Comments are due by December 20, 2016.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:21:23
Comments under my name represent the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lady Brigida von München, Purple Falcon Herald, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Aeschine ingen Dugall -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (12th-14th c Scottish) most important.
Culture (12th-14th c Scottish) most important.

Aeschine: Scottish feminine given name dated to 1160 found in "A List of Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records - Part One: Introduction by Talan Gwynek (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/scottishfem.html)

Aeschine c.1160 = Eschina; c.1170 [LIULF, 432]

ingen is a nominative of daughter used prior to 1200 per "Quick and Easy Gaelic Names" by Sharon Krossa (http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#descriptivebyname)

Dugall is found in Black, p 217; s.n. Dougal, Dougall, Dugal, Dugald

'. . . and <Dugall>, thane of Molen, 1261, was one of the inquisition on the king's garden at Elgin and the lands belonging to it . . .'

Name Comments:

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-12-06 21:37:27
wouldn't the patronymic marker be inghean since the Dugall is dated after 1200.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:05:39
No conflicts noted. I concur with Golden Dolphin regarding the patronymic marker. The cited article gives and approximate cutoff of "around 1200" and if the byname is clearly dated after, the marker should match.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:21:59
Given name doc checks out. Corrected link for "ingen" is http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#spelling not #descriptivebynames. I can't seem to find any documentation for Dugall other than <Black> so I'm unsure if it should be lenited or not. This name is not constructed correctly for either Scots or Scottish Gaelic. Dugall is a Scots form of the name found as Dubgall in 980 and as Dubhghall in 1268 in Irish annals. To be correct for Gaelic (as correct as a Scots first name and Gaelic byname can be, anyway), she would need to be Aeschine inghean Dubhghaill. That would be the form for 13th and 14th century Gaelic. A 12th century Gaelic form would be Aeschine ingen Dubgaill. A later wholly Scots form of the name would be Aeschine MacDougal. But that would be later than the client's desired time period. No conflicts found.


2: Angus de Botha -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2001, via Ansteorra.

Gules, a fleam and a wolf's head couped argent

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-11-25 01:45:36
There is no default arrangement for two charges, even though that here is probably optimum. So we must blazon:

Gules, in bend a fleam and a wolf's head couped argent

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2016-12-03 18:59:57
No conflicts found, though I was unsure how to enter co-primary charges in the complex search.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-03 20:29:32
If you post to the SCAHeraldryChat page on Facebook, reasonably soon somebody more experienced will check your work and teach you as necessary.

Me, I'm rubbish at it and know that.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:07:57
I concur with the proposed reblazon. No conflicts noted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:23:03
Agree with Michael's reblazon. No conflicts found.


3: Bartel Fitzneel -New Household Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 1986, via the West.

Worshipful Company of Moniers

No major changes.
Sound most important.

Worshipful Company is a pattern seen in guild names in English. For example, the "worshipfull Company of Clothworkers" is mentioned at p. 93 of The Survey of London: Contayning the Orignall, Increase, Moderne Estate, and Government of that City, Methodically Set Downe (https://books.google.com/books?id=UONBAQAAMAAJ), published in 1633. The "worshipfull Company of Haberdashers" is mentioned at p. 103 of the same book.

The spelling worshipful is dated to 1460 in the Middle English Dictionary s.v. worshipful (adj.)

Monier: The Compact Oxford English Dictionary, New Edition s.n. moneyer

'2. One who coins money: a coiner, minter. a1577 Sir T. Smith Commw. Eng. II.xxi (1589) 91 To enquire of all heretiques ... false moniers, extortioners [etc.].'

Household Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2016-11-25 04:48:19
Another example is the the "worshipfull Company of the Lethersellers of the Citty of London" whose arms and crest were granted during Edward the Fourths reign. In 1505 supporters were granted. "History and Antiquities of the Worshipful Company of Leathersellers ..." By William Henry Black, 1871, p. 51. See image. https://books.google.com/books?id=2zVOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=%22Worshipfull+Company+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ve d=0ahUKEwjdmqnT2sPQAhWkgVQKHW41C644ChDoAQgxMAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Worshipfull%20Company%20of%22&f=false

1: Image 1

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:17:14
Documentation verified. No conflicts noted. I do note that in most of the examples provided, excepting the cover page of Maridonna's source, that the spelling for "worshipfull" is with 2 "L"s.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-08 20:10:39
We don't ask that submitters go with the most likely spelling in period but only with a possible one.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:25:28
[Name] Looks OK. Closest we saw is the Moneyers Guild of An Tir. No conflicts found. We hadn't been able to confirm that the "Worshipful Company" usage went back to period. Thanks to Marianna for filling in that gap in the documentation.


4: Cecily of York -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Caleb of York(3/2006)

Argent, a rabbit courant to sinister and on a point pointed gules, a lozenge argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for English language and/or culture.
Language (English) most important.
Culture (English) most important.

Cecily is a feminine given name found in "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames - Part Two: The Names A-G" by Talan Gwynek (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/reaneyAG.html)

Cecily 1246 Gorrell; 1279 Will; 1523 Hutchin

of York - RW, 3rd ed., p 508. s.n. York, Yorke: John <de York> 1324

Submitter has found a minor princess with the same name from the late 15th century. Is Cecily Neville, Duchess of York significant enough to protect that name?

Name Comments:

Konstantia Kaloethina (Greek Fire) at 2016-11-25 22:31:03
Given that Cecily, Duchess of York was mother to both Edward IV and Richard III, I think she'd be important to protect. I do wonder if the client would be amenable to adding a second name to ensure a difference.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-02 23:25:16
Under heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#NPN3C2, "Non-SCA People Protected from Presumption", being closely related to notable historical figures is not evidence of importance. The basic criterion is

People who are not important enough to have an entry in a standard print encyclopedia, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, are generally not important enough to protect.
The duchess does not fall under any of the exceptions, viz.,
Sovereign rulers of significant states ... Individuals whose names are recognized by a significant number of people in the Society [my estimate] without having to look them up in a reference ... Individuals whose work and/or life are still influential today ...
Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecily_of_York finds her granddaughter, a Viscountess Welles, more appropriate to cover as "Cecily of York"--which might itself be a conflict. However, since the online Britannica finds neither of them important enough for a separate article it is doubtful that the print version does. Nor does the viscountess seem to qualify as an exception,

Unless Women in World History: A Biographical Encyclopedia, see http://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/neville-cecily-1415-14 95, heading "Neville, Cecily"--which is indeed the duchess and shows <Cecily of York> as a variant name along with "the Rose of Raby"--can be considered "standard" (it does have a print version), I do not believe this submission presumes on either of the royal ladies.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:19:48
No conflicts noted

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:27:25
Given name doc checks out. No conflicts found. There was a difference of opinion as to whether Cecily Nevill is important enough to conflict. She was not only the mother of two kings, but also mother of the unfortunate George, Duke of Clarence.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-19 20:48:10
As I first argued above, I am with those in Green Anchor's group who held the Rose of Raby not important enough to protect.

Our rules (see my link above) do not include "closely related to multiple notable historical figures" as one of the exceptions to people who do not "have an entry in a standard print encyclopedia". Nor do I believe that whatever influence the duchess may have had on one or both of her kingly sons--which would have to be documented, not assumed, given the frequent absence of parenting behavior among medieval nobles--it rose to such a level that at one remove her "work and/or life are still influential today". Based on my review of the Wikipedia article for "Cecily of York" (link also above), a claim that the career of the Viscountess Welles met the latter standard seems even more tenuous.

Device Comments:

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2016-12-03 19:04:40
No conflicts found.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:23:05
No conflicts noted

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2016-12-12 19:12:19
Is the lack of detail in the rabbit an issue?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-12 20:01:53
Not if "From Wreath Queen of Arms: WHERE HAVE ALL THE DETAILS GONE?" on http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2001/08/01-08cl.html is still valid--and I at least cannot find anything to the contrary:

not all period heraldic art has internal details, and such silhouette depictions are acceptable in the SCA as long as identifiability is preserved.
Since I've seen this objection a lot, it might be well to pre-emptively cite that proclamation in the LoI.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:28:36
No conflicts found. We prefer to see a bit of internal detailing, but this rabbit certainly don't need it because there's no question of its identity.


5: Derbáil ingen Néill -New Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Azure, two stags combatant and in base two axes in saltire argent

Name was submitted on the Northshield October 2016 kingdom letter.

Device Comments:

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2016-12-03 19:09:16
No conflicts found.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:24:34
No conflicts noted

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:29:34
No conflicts found. Nicely proportioned.


6: Dyonisia Buleheued -New Alternate Name [DOCS]

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 2009, via Northshield.

Tessa Constantin de Marseilles

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (1450 Marseilles - Provence) most important.

Tessa is an Italian feminine given name dated to the 14th-15th c in "Italian Renaissance Women's Names" by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/italian.html)

Constantin is a French surname found in "Names Found in Commercial Documents from Bordeaux, 1470-1520" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Friedemann), with assistance from Talan Gwynek (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/bordeaux.html)

Vidault

Vidau Delespiau

Vidault Darrac

Vidault Davansac also found as Avansac, Devansac.

Vidault Decastetnau

Vital Delefargue

Vitaul <Constantin>

de Marseilles is a locative byname found on p 82 of "Names in the 1292 census of Paris" by Sara L. Uckelman (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paris.html)

de Marseille (2)

(i) de Marseille (1)

(ii) de Marseilles (1)

Alternate Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-02 23:34:09
And under SENA Appendix C, French and Italian can be combined throughout our period.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:29:37
Documentation confirmed. Name elements are combinable and date within the 300 year limit for mixed cultures.No conflicts noted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:30:55
Agree that this is OK. A better citation for the toponymic is at http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/1292paris.pdf


7: Helgulfr Arngeirsson -New Name [DOCS] & New Device

Sable, a gurges argent overall a wolf passant reguardant gules

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Retain major name elements and Norse theme) most important.
Meaning (Retain major name elements and Norse theme) most important.

Helgulfr is found in the Nordiskt runnamnslexikon by Lena Peterson, p 129 (http://www.sprakochfolkminnen.se/download/18.6dffb94c149794d926e379/1415279748920/Runnamnslexikon_T+ 141106.pdf)

HælgulfR mn.

F.l. → Hælg-, e.l. → -ulfR.

Nom. ailkulfR Sö352A(?), helgulfR Nä31, hikkulfr Sö178(?), hilguflr

Sö188 $ (?)

Arngeirsson is a patronymic formed following the pattern on page 17 of GB using the masculine given name <Arngeirr> found on page 7 of the same source.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-11-27 22:59:21
Technically, Peterson only has the Old East Norse form of the name - HælgulfR. We know from other names that the Old West Norse form of the name would be Helgulfr, based on...
sn. Hælga, Old East Norse -> Helga, Old West Norse (in the document it's abbreviated as "fvn"
sn. Hælgi -> Helgi
sn. Hælla (?) -> Hella

So, the name is formed correctly, using the standardised Old West Norse spelling.
If the submitter wanted Old East Norse, then you'd expect to see it normalised as Hælgulfr Ærngæirsson.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:35:28
Documentation confirmed. No conflicts noted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:31:34
Ditto.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-11-25 02:01:01
Just so nobody else has to confirm their memory: This is what Mistholme at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/gurges/ tells us is the original form of a gurges; the equally acceptable spiral form is Tudor. They are there said to be interchangeable, so I think that as with, e.g., vair ancient, we need not add to the blazon.

Drusticc inigena Eddarrnonn (Dromond) at 2016-12-01 03:44:09
It appears the field is actually argent instead of sable, providing contrast with the wolf.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-02 04:23:59
It definitely needs to be blazoned that way for the sake of contrast. Moreover, the "overall" wants either an "and" or a comma. Fortunately, Laurel is apparently willing to overlook what tincture the corners are; see http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=57680 for what might well be called azure, a gurges argent but is blazoned the reverse at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/12/15-12lar.html#188 so it can have a bordure gules. So:

Argent, a gurges sable, overall a wolf passant reguardant gules

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:38:06
I concur with this proposed reblazon

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-12-06 21:40:20
There is a step from period practice to use a tertiary charge with gurges, but it is only one.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-06 22:15:44
Could you give us a URL for that precedent, Golden Dolphin? I've gone hunting for a stricture against using an overall charge with a gurges (as here) and failed. The closest I've found says that your cited motif is not an SFPP but impossible, viz., http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1995/03/lar.html s.n. Christopher Everard: "A properly drawn gurges ... has insufficient space on it for tertiary charges", but that has nothing to do with this submission.

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-12-06 22:22:40
NM, misread SENA.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:38:19
No conflicts noted

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:34:53
As emblazoned, this is unambiguously sable, a gurges argent. It would be a simple matter to flipflop the tinctures by simply removing the black bits from the corners of the escutcheon. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-19 21:05:24
As I noted above, a review of the registered gurges's emblazons seems to me to leave the case not so unambiguous as all that.


8: Jehanne de la Berge -Resub Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

Submission History: This submitter originally submitted the name <Wulfwen verch Davyd> on the Northshield October 2016 Kingdom letter. She has withdrawn that name and is resubmitting this name instead. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=69814)

Jehanne is a French feminine given name found in "French Names from Paris, 1421, 1423, & 1438" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara Uckelman) (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/paris1423.html)

de la Berge is locative byname found in "Bynames in the Middle English Dictionary" by Sara Uckelman, p. 5 (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/med.tex)

's.n. Berg de la Berge 1253 (bergh), atte Bergh 1296, 1332 (bergh), atte Bargh 1327 (bergh), atte Berugh 1332 (bergh).'

SENA Appendix C allows combination of French and Middle English names for this time period.

Name Comments:

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:44:34
Documentation verified. No conflicts noted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:37:04
Docs check out. A better link for the surname doc is http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/med.pdf. No conflicts found.


9: Kate de Mallow -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Northshield LoI of October 31, 2016 as submitted.

Gyronny arrondi argent and purpure, a bordure sable

Submission History: Previous submission 'Gyronny arrondy of eight argent and purpure, a chief sable' on the September 2016 Northshield LoI was returned due to conflict with Lyneya de Aston, reg. 3/05 via Meridies 'Gyronny purpure and argent, on a chief sable two escallops inverted argent.' (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=54079)

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-11-25 02:17:10
The link above seems to be in error, going to a proposed device paired with the name <Magnus Einarsson>. https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=68564 brings me Kate de Mallow's earlier device submission and Green Anchor's discovery of the conflict with Lyneya.

In case there might be a doubt: http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/07/09-07lar.html s.n. Reyna Thorne declares "no difference between gyronny and gyronny arrondi."

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2016-11-25 22:39:41
Oops. Darn it.

Konstantia Kaloethina (Greek Fire) at 2016-11-25 22:34:35
There is a submission currently on the 9-30-16 Calontir LoI that is for Úlfr Þorgrimsson: Gyronny arrondi, azure and argent, a bordure sable. While not registered (yet), there is only one difference for the purpure.

Iohannes Glenfidanus (Isundun) at 2016-12-08 11:59:55
The submission looks clear currently, however is likely to not be by the time it is considered. I would recommend consideration the addition of tertiary charges to the bordure or addition of a primary charge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2016-12-08 20:17:56
If an esthetic suggestion is not out of place here, ... a bordure platy might maintain its elegant simplicity.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-12-19 13:38:08
Agree with the conflict Konstantia found.


Thus ends the November Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 4 Names, 1 Alternate Name, 1 Household Name, 4 Devices and 1 Badge. There are a total of 11 items submitted on this letter.