OSCAR Kingdoms: Trimaris Internal Letters

[ TRIMARIS Home | Trimaris Heraldry | Trimaris Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Anst|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl]


TRIMARIS Home
Trimaris Heraldry
Trimaris Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Trimaris ILoI dated 2016-04-30

Greetings and Salutations,

This is the April ILoI for the Kindgom of Trimaris.

As always, may the criticism be productive and the commentary civil.

Yours in Service,

Lord Ephrem Orbeli

Lymphad Herald Trimaris

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:53:27
Comments under my name represent the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group this month consisting of Lady Brigida von Munchen, Purple Falcon Herald, and myself, with email support from Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant.

As usual, I find all the photocopies of documentation without at least summaries in the text of the letter to be annoying and slowing down good commentary.

1: Alexander Gerritsen of Torthorwald, called Gerrit's Ekie -New Name Change

OSCAR NOTE: Filing name should match submitted item for a primary name change. It should be the new name.

Alexander Gerritsen of Torthorwald, called Gerrit's Ekie

Old Item: Brion Gennadyevich Gorodin, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (English and Dutch) most important.

FamilySearch (Given name - Alexander):

Alexander Van Den Bergen; Male; 12 Jan 1606; Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands; Batch Number: C02862-5

"Netherlands, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1910,"index,FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB19-J68 :

accessed 25 February 2015), Alexander Van Den Bergen, ; citing Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands; FHL microfilm

L13,132.

FamilySearch (Patronym - Gerritsen):

Comelis Genitsen; Male; 25 Jul 1564; Amsterdam, Noord-Holland Netherlands; Batch Number: C90035-1

"Netherlands, Births and faptisms, 1564-1910," index, FamilySearch

(https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBP3-TFS : accessed 25 February 2015), Cornelis Gerritsen, ; citing Amsterdam,

Noord-Holland, Netherlands; FHL microfilm 113, 131.

Location: Torthorwald

Located in Dumfries and Galloway, established prior to 1-600, referenced in the published English translation of the

Parliamentary Register, a continuation of summons of treason, regarding lord Carlyle [of Torthorwald], et al., June 12, 1548,

in Edinburgh, during the reign of Mary I of Scotland (1542-1567), (attached)

Long citation: The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1,707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2015),

1548/6/2. Date accessed: 25 February 2015.

Short citation: RPS, 1548/612.Date accessed: 25 February 2015.

Short URL: http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1548/6/2

Given name: Ekie

"Ekie Armstrong"

"Ninian Armstrong in Broomholm, John, Ekie and Anthony Armstrong there"

James VI: Translation

> 1585, L December, Linlithgow, Parliament

> Parliamentary Register

> 10 December 1585

> Legislation: private acts"

The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2015), date

accessed: 26 February 2015

Short citation: RPS, 1585/12136. Date accessed: 26 February 2015.

Short URL: http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1585/12/36

Correction to Name (2016-May-01 08:05:18): Additional documentation will be uploaded again this evening, it had to be removed because it contained personally identifying information.

Yours in service,

Lord Ephrem Orbeli

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-04/23-31-54_Alexander_Name_01.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-05-01 03:03:06
So this is <Dutch personal name>+<Dutch patronymic>+<Scottish Locative>+alias+<Dutch father's name in genitive case>+<Scottish given name>? Was any evidence for this name construction provided?

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-05-01 18:03:22
This definitely isn't a pattern in Scots.

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2016-05-04 12:05:00
This doesn't match any of the available patterns in SENA Appendix A that I can see, which would be cause for return without further documentation of the pattern here given.

It seems like a very specific and complex submission -- if there's something specific that the submitter wants, and this is an attempt at an end run towards that goal, we might be better able to help if we knew what that goal was.

Ephrem Orbeli (Lymphad) (Lymphad) at 2016-05-04 23:37:14
Please see attached documentation, it has the submitter's rational for the construction of the name, whether it's a sufficient argument for it's approval is for more onomastic minds than myself to determine.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-05-05 03:31:29
So, to summarise the documentation, his argument is that it is following the pattern:

Johnne Ellrote in Redden, callit Johnne of Rynsiegill
Walter Lytle in Bombie, callit Wattis Kinds
James Jonsonne of Braikansyd, callit auld Jamie

Except these all seem to be:
<Given name><byname><locative>, callit <diminutive of given name><different byname>.

As the submitter wants called <Dutch father's name in genitive case>+<Scottish given name>, this doesn't seem to be justifying the pattern.

The next group of examples he gives include:
Matthew Irving, called Meg's Matthew
Rowe Little, called Archie's Rowe
Christie Armstrong, called Armstrong's Christie

But they don't seem to be using a diminutive of the given name, or a different given name.

I would suggest that the name be sent forward, because more documentation may be found at society-level commentary, but I would also guess plausible forms of the name could be:
<Alexander Gerritsen_, called Gerrit's Alexander>
(Given the confusion in the 16th century about what the ' was contracting, eg. http://wmjasco.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/possessive-apostrophe-his-origin.html I'm not sure what the "non-abbreviated" form would be.)
<Alexander Gerritsen of Torthorwald, called Sandry>
(To use an example of an English diminutive found in DMNES sn. Alexander: http://dmnes.org/name/Alexander)

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-05-05 03:33:57
Oh, and because the submitter didn't document Gerrit--
<Gerrit Abrahamsz> married 1605, Netherlands. Batch no. M01224-7
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FN7S-PLQ )

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-05-09 20:21:49
I agree with ffride's suggestions for what could be a plausible form for this submitter.

Diderick van dem Mere (Archive) at 2016-05-02 18:11:36
Names confuse me , I have to be honest. I have looked at what is here and I am not sure exactly what I am looking at. It appears to have the correct timeframe , but I am not sure of culture or area.

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-05-05 16:33:28
Brion Gennadyevich Gorodin was registered in Jan 1991

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-05 16:59:19
This one is great one to study. And thank you ffride for really putting it into perspective.

Its a Dutch name and patronymic, with a Scottish locative and a nickname. Alexander+son of Gerrit+ Scottish locative (of Torthorwald, called Gerrit's Ekie. Ekie is meant to be a diminutive of Alexander.

I basically can find support for the submission, except for the nickname (Ekie). As ffride pointed out, perhaps others can find.

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:02:40
To me, this raises the question, if two "regional naming groups" can be combined by Appendix C, does that mean we can "mix 'n' match" the patterns from Appendix A?

Note that the Feb 1998 ruling is not quite so broad as the submitter seems to think. The ruling says:

Submitted as Arianwen Teague called Seeker. As noted in the LoI, Madeleine Moinet dit Boismenu's name was registered because 'called' is a legitimate documentary form in Latin, German and French. The name submitted here is none of those languages. The commentary that Master Da'ud provided (and which is cited in the LoI) also shows 'called' names as, for want of a better term, proper aliases (John Smith called John Doe called Richard Roe) rather than common nouns (John Smith called Bandit called Fellow). "Seeker" doesn't fit into these parameters. (Arianwen Teague A-Middle 2/1998)
Whether the submission is a "proper alias" or not is more than I can figure out.

All-in-all, this is more than I feel competent to deal with.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:55:54
Given name and patronymic docs check out. ffride has already addressed the problems with the formation of this name. We don't see how he gets Ekie from Alexander, or any other evidence for Ekie. We can't imagine that there could be any conflicts with this name, but did not specifically check.


2: Christophe Beck -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in January of 2014, via Trimaris.

Per pall argent, sable, and Or, on a tortoise vert, a bow with arrow nocked Or, fletched gules.

Device Comments:

Diderick van dem Mere (Archive) at 2016-05-02 18:19:09
First glance I see a difficulty making out the bow and arrow. To me it is not bold enough to stand out. At a distance you just wont see it. I will comment more when I check conflict. But I honestly think that the first issue is visual weight . Maybe NOT have the bow and arrow On the tortoise . Or not as much detail on the tortoise. But even then I am not sure the charge will show up enough.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2016-05-02 23:28:48
At lease the Bow and arrow need to be bolder, if they were beefed up perhaps they would be easer to see.

Andreas Lucernensis at 2016-05-05 15:35:01
Concur - the bow is hard to see.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2016-05-06 13:56:30
Didn't even see the bow until read the blazon

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:07:15
I, too, think the bow & arrow need beefing up. I didn't find any conflict.

Mayken van der Alst (Jack) at 2016-05-16 11:10:42
I did not find any conflict but would definitely recommend beefing up the bow and arrow which are almost 'invisible.' Maybe even changing the fletching to Or rather than gules would help with that.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:56:43
No conflicts found. We all agree that someone should redraw the bow, the arrow, and especially the bowstring, thicker for better visibility.


3: David of Loch Griffin -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Culture (12th Century Scottish) most important.
Meaning (Locative) most important.

David - masculine given name - Exemplified by David I of Scotland 1084-1153

withycombe p. 80

Loch - lake - Scottish Gaelic

Griffin - surname - As exemplified by Robertus Griffin of Newtyle circa 1226

Black p. 329

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-05-01 18:10:26
Looking at the various "Loch X" names in Timothy Pont's Maps of Scotland, I don't see any examples of "Loch + surname" as the basis for a place name.

<David> is found in 13th cen. Latinized Scots records per my "Names from 13th Century Scottish Parliamentary Records" (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/Namesfrom13thCenturyScottishParliamentaryRecords.html).

Would the submitter be willing to consider something like David Griffin of [actual place name]?

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-02 17:32:09
Little confused here. Is this placeholder name, since its the name of a canton in Darkwater?

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-02 18:41:50
I agree then, if that is the intention, then based on Ogress research then, needs to be furthered researched or re thought.

Diderick van dem Mere (Archive) at 2016-05-02 18:08:14
Often people will choose a name and then a where they are from , in this case Loch Griffin. Common practice here really. I do hope at some time in the future they do research to get something more personalized .

Diderick van dem Mere (Archive) at 2016-05-02 18:24:37
According to the documentation here it is that he is looking for this to be his registered name. If so I agree with Alys . There needs to be documentation of Loch being Used as a name . Otherwise this is more along the lines of saying you are David and you live in Loch Griffin. That is common in kingdom until someone gets more research for an actual name but I am just not sure it will pass for what is wanted here .

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2016-05-02 23:24:26
If he is wanting it to be a locative, it needs to be submitted as such, Loch Gryffyn - , Local Group Loch Gryffyn, Shire of - This branch-name was registered in June of 1990 (via Trimaris). He also needs to spell his name same as the group name. Commenters outside Trimaris are no always familiar with the names of our groups.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-05-09 20:23:40
Ah. I had no idea that there was a Loch Gryffyn in Trimaris.

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2016-05-04 20:36:46
Documentation for <David> confirmed.

The locative byname (PN 1.B.2.f) requires that the name b spelled exactly as registered by the Society. As noted by Haakon Gold Axe, the group name is <Loch Gryffyn>, registered in June 1990.

So, the name should be <David of Loch Gryffyn>, with the documentation for Loch Gryffyn being what Haakon Gold Axe provides.

I find no conflicts.

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-05 16:27:26
agreed

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:14:46
SENA, PN.1.B.2.f, Branch Name Allowance says in part:

Only the exact registered form of the branch name may be used,...
Thus, this should be changed to "David of Loch Gryffyn," or he'll need to demonstrate the use of "loch+surname" in in-period Scotland.

I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:58:25
He can certainly use the registered name of the shire, but agree it will then need to be David of Loch Gryffyn. We found no period support for the placename as submitted. No conflicts found.


4: Euthymius Alakaseus -New Name Change

OSCAR NOTE: filing name should not be registered for a primary name change. It was, in in August of 2016, via Trimaris.

Old Item: Michael of Darkwater, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Culture (12th C Byzantine) most important.

A Short Guide to Byzantine Names for SCA Personae. Hrolf Herjolfsson

Accessed at: https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/greek.shtml

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-05-01 03:15:58
Prosopography of the Byzantine World has:
http://db.pbw.kcl.ac.uk/jsp/index.jsp
sn. Euthymios
Euthymios Chortaites, late 11th c., early 12th c.
Εὐθύμιον (Euthymios 20121)

Euthymios Kopantites (?), metropolitan of Herakleia in Pontos, mid-to-late 12th c.
Εὐθύμιον (Euthymios 20123)

sn. Konstantinos
Konstantinos Alakasseus, mid 12th c.
᾿Αλακασέα. Seal 5159

sn. Anonymus 15106 Second Name Alakaseus (Ἀλακασεύς), late 11th c.

So, Euthymios Alakaseus would be a fine 12th c. Byzantine Greek name.

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-09 17:54:22
I find no conflicts. Good name.

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:30:56
The source used is actually at:
http://ynysfawr.lochac.sca.org/files/pdf/Byzantine-Names.pdf

It has the line:

Euthymius: 11th century monk & writer against the Bogomils (PL562)
The "(PL562)" is explained in the Bibliography as from the source:
Ariès, Phillipe and George Duby (general editors) A History of Private Life Vol 1 From Pagan Rome to Byzantium Paul Veyne (1992) (translated Arthur Goldhammer) Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, ISBN 0 674 39974 9. A very readable account of customs and morés. (citations use PLxxx)
I'll let others discuss the value of this source, but it looks iffy to me. I think ffride is right, and "Euthymios" would be correct.

I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:59:00
Name docs check out. No conflicts found.


5: Marie MacPherson -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2015, via Trimaris.

Ermine, a domestic cat herissony contourney sable, a bordure embattled azure.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:49:08
The PicDic says "Other postures, peculiar to the cat, include "herissony", with arched back, raised fur, and spitting;..." This cat does not look as upset as I'd expect. Further, it is tilted to sinister enough that it looks to me like it's about to fall on its face. Perhaps an artist's note is needed?

Closest I found is:

Richard Blackwood
The following device associated with this name was registered in August of 1997 (via the Middle):
Per saltire gules and argent, a lion rampant sable, within a bordure dovetailed azure.
One DC for the field. By Appendix M, nothing for dovetailed versus embattled. SENA doesn't mention herissony, but I'm sure there's a DC for at least the "contourny" (not contourney, BTW). I found nothing else close, so I believe this is clear.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 11:59:40
"contourny" We'd prefer to see the cat drawn a bit less skinny, but that's not a likely reason for return. If it were drawn with whiskers and with its hair standing on end, there would probably be a problem with the ermine spots. No conflicts found.


6: Michael of Darkwater -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2009, via Trimaris.

Fieldless, a lightning bolt bendwise Or.

Badge Comments:

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-05-02 01:12:38
(Fieldless) A lightning bolt bendwise Or.

Consider Dunno Jamesson The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 2002 (via Ansteorra): Per pale argent and sable, a lightning bolt bendwise Or.

There is only 1 DC for changes to the field.

SFPP for use of a lightning bolt outside of a thunderbolt.

Andreas Lucernensis at 2016-05-05 15:37:36
A device's field cannot give a DC in comparison to a fieldless badges. . . that's the drawback of the fieldless bribe.

So, there is no DC here at all.

Seraphina Delphino (Golden Dolphin) at 2016-05-05 16:25:24
I disagree, Fieldless badges get a DC for field verses any armory, fielded or fieldless. You can only get one DC for changes to field.

As per SENA. e. Fieldless Armory: A piece of fieldless armory automatically has one distinct change (DC) from any other armory, fielded or fieldless.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2016-05-05 16:51:18
Actually Per SENA A5G1e: "e. Fieldless Armory: A piece of fieldless armory automatically has one distinct change (DC) from any other armory, fielded or fieldless. Tinctureless armory, as described in A.3.A.2, is treated as fieldless armory for this purpose. However, no DC may be given for tincture of charges when comparing a tinctureless badge to any other design, including changes of tincture due to addition of lines of division. Hide Example: For example, (Fieldless) A mullet purpure has a DC for fieldlessness from (Fieldless) A mullet of six points purpure, but no other DCs. For example, Per fess gules and argent, a lion counterchanged has a DC for tincturelessness from (Tinctureless) A lion but no other DCs for tincture, even though one of the lions is divided per fess."

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 16:52:58
I agree Dunno Jamesson is a conflict. I didn't find any other.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 12:00:20
Agree with Golden Dolphin's conflict call.


7: Moyai-Nidun -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2001, via Trimaris.

Gules, a peruke and on a chief argent, a grenade sable.

Badge Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 17:00:55
We have not ever, as far as I can find, registered any sort of wig at all. This would be the defining instance of a wig/periwig/peruke, and needs to be documented as such. Particularly since this doesn't look like any kind of wig I can imagine. Frankly, I thought this was a truly odd attempt at a comet.

Matilda Wynter at 2016-05-16 02:11:49
I thought it was a radish, with the roots showing

Mayken van der Alst (Jack) at 2016-05-16 11:14:58
I agree; the design is really difficult to decipher ("What am I looking at?!") - a radish? An upside down fire? A pomegranate with a flaming tail?

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-23 20:01:59
hmm yeah... Mayken, I agree

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 12:01:41
We see nothing to indicate that a wig of any kind has been previously registered. If this is indeed the first one, there needs to be a lot of support for wigs of any kind, and also support for why this one should be blazoned as a peruke. No conflicts found, if there is nothing resembling a wig as the primary charge. BTW, W*******a says, "Perukes or periwigs for men were introduced into the English-speaking world with other French styles when Charles II was restored to the throne in 1660, following a lengthy exile in France. These wigs were shoulder-length or longer, imitating the long hair that had become fashionable among men since the 1620s. Their use soon became popular in the English court." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wig

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-23 21:09:57
However, the OED has a citation for the sense "a wig" as early as 1549.

Inventory Henry VIII (1998) 168/1 Coiffes of venice golde with theire perukes of here hanginge to them and longe labelles of colored lawne.
So it looks like the object is period.


8: Taz Mongojin -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Tegan Conwy(7/1998)

Per pale sable and gules, a sword point to base and a flanged mace in saltire debased and overall a hammer palewise argent.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Meaning (Mongojin - of silver) most important.
Spelling (Taz) most important.

Taz - Tatar Troop Leader

Cumans and Tatars: Oriental Military in the Pre-Ottoman Balkans, 1185-1365

By István Vásáry p. 94

Mongojin - Derived from Mongo (silver) and -jin/-chin (of)

Sechen Jagchid's Mongolia's Culture and Society lists general categories that reflect Mongolian naming practices. These include...names that represent characteristics of strength, durability or physical value (Temur, "iron", and Altan, "gold")...

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-01/00-43-21_Client_is_seeking_the_name_TAZ.docx
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-01/00-43-21_Client_is_seeking_the_name_TAZ2.docx
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-01/00-43-21_TAZ.docx
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-01/00-43-21_TAZ_Backup.docx

Name Comments:

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-09 17:52:55
Great and fascinating research! based on that I find no conflicts.

It's about time he passed his name! ;)

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 17:05:34
Unfortunately I have nothing that can handle .docx files, but from the summary, I think he's trying to register "troop leader". If so, isn't that a title, like "captain," and thus unregistrable?

I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 12:02:31
No one was willing to plow through all those data photos to check this out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-14 17:30:08
If this is considered a sheaf of charges, it has three types in one charge group, which is not allowed. Blazoning it as two primary charges and an overall charge doesn't change the fact it's a sheaf. Consider:

Aðísla Frilla. Device. Quarterly azure and sable, two needles in saltire surmounted by a drop-spindle argent.
This device is returned for conflict with the device of Gemma Taylor: Sable, a sheaf of needles argent. There is a DC for changing the field but none for changing 1/3 of the primary charges. In each design, we do not have two primary charges and an overall charge but three co-primary charges.R-Caid Jan 2015
Further, given the small size of the sword and mace, they might be considered secondary charges. But that won't work either, because SENA Appendix I.D says an overall charge group can surmount only a primary charge group.

Thus, all-in-all this, as drawn, cannot be registered.

Matilda Wynter at 2016-05-16 02:13:16
besides this, that mace had me COMPLETELY convinced it was a screwdriver handle, so when re-drawn, i'd like to see it a bit more "mace like"

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-16 16:26:20
I was going to mention that, but after looking up stuff I forgot. Yeah, I think it looks like a screwdriver, or an ice-pick. Definitely needs to be redrawn.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 12:05:32
"abased" There are many sorts of hammer registered, according to the PicDic. This doesn't look much like any of them. We also found the secondaries hard to identify. (toasting fork and screwdriver?) Agree with Boar's analysis of the situation. No conflicts found.


9: Valeria Victoria of Deva -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Spelling (Keeping the cognomen) most important.

Nomen/nomen gentilicium:

Valeria (female- documentation)

http://inslib.kcl.ac.uk/irt2009/indices/attested/gentilicium/attested_gentilicium-latV.html (see print out)

Cognomen:

Victoria (female- documentation)

http://inslib.kcl.ac.uk/irt2009/indices/attested/cognomen/attested_cognomen-latV.html (see print out, including ones of documented tombstones)

Correction to Name (2016-May-01 08:05:39): Referenced print out will be uploaded again this evening, it had to be removed because it contained personally identifying information.

Yours in service,

Lord Ephrem Orbeli

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1903/2016-05-04/23-33-31_Valerie_Name_02.2-41.pdf

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2016-05-01 03:27:35
If the submitter wants to use the Lingua Anglica "of", then surely the placename should be in modern English too: "of Chester"?

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2016-05-01 18:13:09
Precisely. She'd need to demonstrate a place name modernly called <Deva> to use the Lingua Anglica allowance this way.

The cited source for the nomen and cognomen is The Inscriptions of Roman Tripolitania (http://inslib.kcl.ac.uk/irt2009/index.html).

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-03 07:43:59
Indeed. Deva is in Transylvania

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2016-05-03 22:29:51
Déva (Romanian: Deva, German: Diemrich) is a city in Transylvania (now in Romania). Its name is found in 1269/1270 as Dewa (Kiss Lajos: Földrajzi nevek etimológiai szótára, s.n. Déva). Wikipedia says there was already a fort there in Roman times, by the name of Sargetia, but I haven't found a more scholarly (or period) source for this information.

(The fort around which the city grew is the subject of an old folk-ballad, Kőműves Kelemen "Clement the Mason". Twelve master masons, Clement among them, start building a great fort at Déva, but what they build in the morning falls down by noon, and what they build in the afternoon falls down by morning. Finally they agree that whichever of their wives first comes to Déva will be thrown in the fire so they can add her ashes to the mortar. Clement's wife comes to visit her husband...)

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2016-05-04 13:29:56
So, what if we redocument it? Double given + byname (locative)?

Per SENA Appendix C, German and Romanian can be combined between 1100 and 1600, and German allows for double given names.

<Valeria> Wagner, f, 23 Feb 1589, Bauerbach, Baden, Germany. Batch #C95149-1. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NHRG-5MF

<Victoria> Coccy, f, 3 Sep 1560, Stuttgart, Wurttemberg, Germany. Batch #M91614-9. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZLL-56V

Deva appears as Dewa ('Deuua') on the map Nova et accurata Transylvaniae descriptio, dated 1630-1650 (http://digitool.is.cuni.cz:1801/view/action/nmets.do?DOCCHOICE=834496.xml&dvs=1462382879307~632&loca le=en_US&search_terms=&adjacency=&VIEWER_URL=/view/action/nmets.do?&DELIVERY_RULE_ID=3&divType=&COP YRIGHTS_DISPLAY_FILE=licence_mapy).

Using past precedent for Romanian locatives:

The town of Satu Mare is mentioned in records dating from 1072 (Giurescu, p52). Judging by names in the chronology of rulers in the back of the book, locatives in Romanian may be formed as de la [placename] or [placename] + -escu. Since I do not know the grammar rules for adding-escu (or for creating its feminine form), and I have previously found period records using de la, I recommend Pavla de la Satu Mare as the best form for registration. [Pavla de la Satu Mare, March 2003 LoAR, Æthelmearc-A]
That gives us <de la Dewa> as a Romanian locative, which we can then apply the Lingua Anglica rule to for "of Deva," which would then give <Valeria Victoria of Deva> as a 16th C German-Romanian name, with all elements dated to less than 100 years of each other. (Assuming that this is what the client is set on, that is.)

Ephrem Orbeli (Lymphad) (Lymphad) at 2016-05-05 01:27:09
You are amazing!

That is all.

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-05 16:20:46
What Ephrem said!

Ephrem Orbeli (Lymphad) (Lymphad) at 2016-05-05 00:34:13
Please see attached documentation as it may clarify some of your questions.

If this is just a problem with the lingua anglica of, versus something like d', de la, etc, I will happily suggest that to them because I'm sure that will go over better than a change from Deva.

Any help given to find an appropriate possesive article would be most appreciated.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2016-05-05 08:46:48
Why would you need a possessive article? Simplifying a bit, locatives in Latin come in two forms: de [placename] and [placename]iensis. In English, the first is basically "of London", while the second is "Londoner".

Properly, nouns after de should not be in the nominative case, but when the noun in question was a non-Latin placename, they sometimes treated it as undeclinable and left it as is. (I think de takes the ablative, but don't quote me on that.)

So, long story short: if Deva is attested as the period name of a place, then de Deva is an appropriate locative construction from it.

However, skimming through the attached PDF, I didn't see any documentation for the construction <nomen>+<cognomen>+<locative>. Do we have evidence for Romans doing "name and address" like this?

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-16 17:15:44
"Why would you need a possessive article? Simplifying a bit, locatives in Latin come in two forms: de [placename] and [placename]iensis." Actually, the "-(i)ensis" suffix is very much post-classical, and the OED shows very, very few examples of its use in period at all.

Latin locatives are either [placename in genitive] or de [placename in ablative], and the latter is post-clasical. Thus, "Valeria Victoria Devae" or "Valeria Victoria de Devā" would be proper Latin.

As for German/Romanian, etc., I'll leave that to others.

I didn't find any conflict, no matter what is done with "of Deva," including dropping it.

Palotzi Marta at 2016-05-18 09:11:17
Except, just like with surnames, mostly scribes would treat foreign-language placenames as indeclinable. At least from what I've seen.

(The -iensis thing had a bit of a resurgence in the Renaissance among Humanist scholars/philosophers, but you're correct that it was rarely used otherwise.)

Basil Dragonstrike (Boar) at 2016-05-18 13:19:03
The submitter appears to want a Latin name, so Deva would not be a "foreign-language placename", and would be declined.

As for a mixed German/Romanian name, that's another matter entirely. ;-)

Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Perez de Gerena (Ensign) at 2016-05-09 17:46:57
I, humbly, think we have over complicated this submission. Part of it has been the amount submitted documentations that takes us all over the place (and time).

Is the client wanting to be from Chester/Deva? or from Deva Romania? The documentation supports a possible Roman construction of later period, post Tria Nomina. For example, there are studies based on the onomastics of Hispania, the most Romanized province, and how it was more fluid than formal Roman.

For ease, I think Liber is on point. The question is, as ffride, pointed out if the client is wanting the anglicized version the Chester would be the correct locative.

Ephrem lymphad twiced! ;) let's talk at Clans!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2016-05-23 12:07:33
Docs for the first two names check out. No conflicts found.



OSCAR counts 3 Names, 2 Name Changes, 3 Devices and 2 Badges. There are a total of 10 items submitted on this letter.