OSCAR Kingdoms: Trimaris Internal Letters

[ TRIMARIS Home | Trimaris Heraldry | Trimaris Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Anst|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl]


TRIMARIS Home
Trimaris Heraldry
Trimaris Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Trimaris ILoI dated 2015-08-26

Greetings from the Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris,

Welcome esteemed commenters to the Pennsic Submissions August 26, 2015 KLoI of Trimaris.

Please accept the following submissions or your consideration

1: Clovis Bärenjäger -New Name & New Device

Azure, a winged wolf rampant surrounded by four compass stars in cross argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.

'Clovis' is found in "Early Germanic Names from Primary Sources" by Magistra Nicolaa de Bracton of Leicester. It is found in the list "Men's names from Gregory of Tours" which dates the name to 5th to 7th Century

'Bärenjäger' is the modern German form of ?bear hunter.? We respectfully request the College of Arms' help in constructing the correct form of the byname meaning 'bear hunter' in the period of Charlemagne.

Name Comments:

Mayken van der Alst at 2015-08-26 13:05:26
Middle High German for bear (German: Bär) is ber (2), bere, per (M.) (1) Middle High German for hunter (German: Jäger) is jeger or jegere (M.)

So Berjeger(e)/ Berejeger(e)/ Perjeger(e) perhaps for 'bear hunter'?



source: Mittelhochdeutsches Handwörterbuch von Matthias Lexer, http://woerterbuchnetz.de/Lexer/

Andreas Lucernensis at 2015-08-26 15:27:14
The modern spelling is also the name of a honey-based liqueur. I do not know if it could be considered obtrusive.

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2015-08-26 21:30:22
this proposed name violate SENA PN2.C.1 and or 2. The name must be from either the same time and period or within 500 years. If the proposed given name is from the 700 AD then the byname may not be older than 1200 AD. The modern byname mixed with a medieval given name is not acceptable.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2015-08-28 12:50:51
Let's come at this from another angle:

<Clovis> is found in a gray-period French record via Family Search:

Clovis Le Clerc; Male; Baptism; 09 Nov 1608; Châtillon-sur-Loing, Loiret, France (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HJ6-QZZ)
It's not a Batched record, but one can view the original document, which I did, and it clearly says both Clovis and 1608.

<Bären> is also found in Family Search as a gray-period German surname:
Margretha Bären; Female; Christening; 23 Feb 1606; Simmozheim Würt; Batch: C93367-1 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLFX-613)
Balthasar Bären; Male; Christening; 19 Feb 1634; Zweibrücken, Pfalz, Bayern; Batch: C96767-1 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDZ3-SZ4)
and <Jäger> is a late period German surname:
Barbara Jäger; Female; Marriage; 26 Oct 1597; Bretten, Baden, Germany; Batch: M01260-8 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZ32-WFZ)
Barbara Jager; Female; Marriage; 23 Jan 1581; Ulm, Württemberg, Germany; Batch: M91503-4 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZKZ-54T)
French and German can be combined as long as the elements are within 300 years per Appendix C.

Double given names are found in German per Appendix A.

So <Clovis Baren Jager> (not sure about the accents) is do-able.

Device Comments:

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2015-08-26 21:18:15
There is a SFPP for the use of the compass stars. The following seems to be very close too close for me to call •Ciaran Faolchara◦s registered in January of 1993 (via the West):Azure billety Or, a winged wolf segreant argent. 1 d/c for the change of the secondary charge group but since 4 or more conflict with any number more than 4 I am unsure if there is an additional d/c... If found acceptable no conflict found

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-08-27 23:30:10
There's one DC for the type of the secondary charge, one DC for the tincture. As well, under SENA A.5.G.5 there's a DC for the difference between four and any other number. I suspect you are thinking of SENA A.5.3.E, which does not give an SC between four and more.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-08-28 13:00:02
The "compass stars" are charges invented in the Society and have finally been declared a SFPP. Winged quadrupeds rampant may be blazoned as segreant. No conflicts found.


2: Lisabetta di Vincenti -New Name Change

OSCAR NOTE: filing name should not be registered for a primary name change. It was, in in December of 2015, via Trimaris.

Old Item: Emelina Dragheswerd, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a feminine name.

Lisabetta is found in "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427" by Arval Benicoeur (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/).

Vincenti is found in "Masculine Names from Thirteenth Pisa" by Juliana de Luna (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/pisa/pisa-given-alpha.html).

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2015-08-26 06:17:21
Since Vincenti is Latin the name element di Vincenti should be changed to de Vincenti.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-08-28 13:00:18
Docs check out with Maridonna's tweak.


3: Morgan O Quine -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Marco Massimi(7/1985), Marius, Maison (11/2012), Morgan Cain (8/1999), Morgan Cheyney (10/1999), Morgan Comyn (12/1996), Morgan O Quine (8/2014), Morgan Skeene (9/2001), Morgann Mac Eóin (1/2010), Morguesa McKenna (1/1980), Muirghein Keigan (5/2010)

When her name was registered in 8/14, Laurel said "We would fix it to the entirely GaelicÓ Cuinn or O Cuinn (omitting the accents), or an entirely Anglicized Irish form, but either would be a major change, which the submitter did not allow." The submitter says that she asked for the Gaelic form without accents, but apparently the message got garbled, as it was reported she wanted O Quine. She wants the Gaelic O Cuinn instead.

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2015-08-26 13:35:49
This is not a New Name -- this is a Name Change. Does she want the Old Name retained as alternate or released?

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2015-08-26 21:36:40
So is this a new name or a name change? In reality even though this is a recent registration the submitter is still required to submit the proper documentation with the submission as per SENA.

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2015-08-28 12:52:36
By the explanation, this is a name change and a Request for Reconsideration. Supplying the LoAR statement about acceptable options is generally sufficient in such cases.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-08-28 13:00:48
Given Laurel's statement, changing it to "O Cuinn" should be OK. Of course, "Morgan" isn't Irish, except as a post-period rendering of "Murchadh". It's Welsh, according to Gruffudd, who says it's the cognate of the Irish "Muirgen".


4: Nuno Cabral del Mar -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for Portuguese.
Meaning (he wants de Mar to mean) most important.

Nuno and Cabral are found - Nuno as a given name, Cabral as a byname - in Juliana de Luna "Portuguese Names from the 16th Century" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/portugal16/).

The locative "do Mar" is the modern Portuguese. The Spanish byname "de la Mar" is dated to the 15th century in Juliana de Luna "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/isabella/). The Spanish "del Mar" is also constructable; that form is dated in CORDE to the 16th c. (yes, Mar is a rare word that can take masculine or feminine). We could not document the Portuguese form and hope that commenters can help.

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-08-28 13:01:26
Don't see "Cabral" in the specified source. The rest looks OK, and SENA allows Portuguese/Spanish mixtures.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2015-08-28 21:30:57
It's in the full listing of masculine names: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/portugal16/portugal16data.html#list
1537 <Jorge Cabral>
along with:
1533 <Nuno Vaaz d'Alhamdra>
1535 <Nuno Vaaz de Castel Branco>
amongst others.


Yours in Service,

Honorable Lord Collyne Greymoire

Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris


OSCAR counts 3 Names, 1 Name Change and 1 Device. There are a total of 5 items submitted on this letter.