OSCAR Kingdoms: Trimaris Internal Letters

[ TRIMARIS Home | Trimaris Heraldry | Trimaris Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Anst|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl]


TRIMARIS Home
Trimaris Heraldry
Trimaris Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Trimaris ILoI dated 2015-03-31

Greetings from the Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris,

Welcome esteemed commenters to the March 31st, 2015 KLoI of Trimaris.

Please accept the following submissions or your consideration.

I would like to send out a special thanks to my deputies and all of the Heralds of Trimaris who pitched in to help and make this letter possible and the job manageable.

Letter Comments:

Tanczos Istvan (Non Scripta) at 2015-04-06 16:35:38
This letter had originally been issued with an incorrect end-of-commentary date (00-00-0000), which caused it to close immediately. This has been fixed.

Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad) at 2015-04-06 18:55:48
Thank you very much!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 10:59:41
Comments under my name on this letter are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group consisting this month of Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Abu Salih Al-Fahim ibn Abu asr ibn Muhammed -New Name

Spelling (Al-Fahim) most important.

Form kunya + laqab/ism + one generation nasab [where name of father is laqab] + nisba

Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices (2nd edition) by Da'ud ibn Auda (David B. Appleton) © 2003

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm

Abu-Salih-Father of ism.

Al-Fahim Arabic laqab means intelligent.

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mustapha/futuwwah.html

ibn Nasr one generation nasab [where name of father is laqab] + nisba

Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices (2nd edition) by Da'ud ibn Auda (David B. Appleton) © 2003

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm

ibn Muhammad Arabic son Muhammad (ism) work as nasib

Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices (2nd edition) by Da'ud ibn Auda (David B. Appleton) © 2003

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm

Name Comments:

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2015-04-07 03:08:08
I assume there were a few minor typos and this submission was supposed to read:

Abu Salih al-Fahmi ibn Abi Nasr ibn Muhammad

I'm not sure how we're getting <ibn Muhammad> as a nisba, since it's a nasab. That makes it kunya + laqab + two generation nasab. (I'm assuming that <al-Fahmi> is a laqab and not an ism because Mustapha's article lists it as an ambiguous "surname", though it COULD be a laqab used as an ism.) Further research may be needed if my fellow commentators could discuss whether this slightly modified pattern is reasonable?

If the submitter wanted to have Muhammad being an ancestor used as a nisba to follow the pattern kunya + laqab/ism + one generation nasab [where name of father is a kunya] + nisba it would need to go into the adjectival form (which I haven't found yet).

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2015-04-07 04:06:44
If the submitter is dead set on the spelling "al-Fahim", consider the following:

Appearing on the Letter of Intent as Abu Ãna `Abd al-`Aziz al-Fahim al-Hari, the name documentation has multiple issues. No evidence was presented that al-Fahim is a period word; in the previous registration mentioned in the Letter of Intent, it was documented from a modern dictionary. Today, our knowledge of period Arabic is far greater, and evidence of modern usage is not enough to give the submitter the benefit of the doubt. If the submitter cannot prove that al-Fahim is a period word, he might consider other options with similar meanings. The documented byname al-Rashid is glossed as "intelligent" in Shelomo Dov Goitein, et al. India Traders of the Middle Ages: Documents from the Cairo Geniza The Hebrew description ha-Navon has the same meaning and is also found in those medieval documents. But barring evidence that al-Fahim is period word, it cannot be registered. [Abu Ana `Abd al-`Aziz de Haro, 06/2013 LoAR, A-An Tir]
I have found no further evidence to contradict this. The closest thing I have found is from Encyclopedia Iranica Fehim-i Kadim, Mustafa Çelebi or Fahim Qadim, Moṣṭafā Čelebi, a poet who died in 1648 (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/persian-authors-2).

Magnus von Lübeck at 2015-04-07 09:03:23
It is difficult to know what to do with al-Fahim. It was registered originally based on Da'ud's research and returned by Juliana. What is one to do when our leading Arabic experts disagree?

The name has not been discussed in commentary in detail and it needs to be. It appears the return wasn't based on commentary, so it must have been done at the meeting. al-Fahim is used as a modern Arabic byname in the Emirates so I wonder about its history. Most Arabic naming practices today are old, very old. I will see what I can find.

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2015-04-07 21:01:51
They didn't disagree. We're just more strict with SENA than with RfS. In 2002 it was good enough that "al-Fahim" was found in a modern dictionary. In 2013 and 2015, that's not good enough anymore.

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2015-04-07 21:06:58
I'd also like to add that in addition to <al-Rashid> suggested in the precedent, there is <al-Basir> glossed as "the sagacious, the wise" in http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm. This is a laqab used as an ism so it can go after the kunya and before the nasab.

Song Zidie (Skraeling Althing) at 2015-04-07 05:02:02
If anyone's interested I found a person Ja'far ibn 'Abdallah being referred to in parentheses as "al-Muhammadi", i.e. the Muhammadan in the translation of The History of al-Tabari, the Events of Year 35 (655-656 CE) (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Lu7AVSRIX2QC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&source=bl&ots=rX5PqD4iBz&sig=lHciL1 UJQ0nN7f1Lrf3-FvG4Vi0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UKkjVebDJsqLsAWA5oGoBQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwCTge#v=snippet&q=%22Al-muha mmadi%22&f=false)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 11:00:14
Neither of us feels very confident about commenting on this. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-04-22 20:47:11
As Da'ud notes in http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm:

I have not yet found a general rule by which laqabs are used in the place of an ism; the only reliable guide for proper usage right now is to look at actual period examples.
Thus, without proof that al-Fahmi or al-Fahim was used as an ʻism, the name fails to have a "given name" (as defined in SENA, PN.1.A.1) and cannot be registered. Further, al-Fahim has been turned down in the precedent quoted by Song Skraeling Althing. "ibn" should indeed be followed by Abi, not Abu. As the documentation shows, the submitter intended Nasr, not asr. I think the reference to ibn Muhammad as a nisba is another typo, and it is meant as a nasab, so there's no need to look for an adjectival form. Also, the name is Muhammad, not Muhammed.

Other than al-Fahim, and the misspelling of Muhammad, the documentation checks out.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2015-04-24 20:07:21

PERIOD ARABIC NAMES AND NAMING PRACTICES by Da'ud ibn Auda
http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm
Muhammad [Mohammed]

There seem to be a number of variations in how the Prophet's name is rendered into English.
Still nothing found on Al-Fahim.


2: Alain Picot de Boisfeuillu -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 1985, via Trimaris

Per pale argent and azure, on a bend cottised three battleaxes palewise reversed, all counterchanged.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2015-03-31 23:47:57

This is not a new device as it was returned by Laurel December 1985.

Alain Picot de Boisfeuillu. Device. Per pale argent and azure, on a bend cottised three battle­axes palewise reversed, all counterchanged.
REASON FOR RETURN: This conflicts with AELFWINE DAES SUDGEMAERES: Per pale argent and azure, a bend cotised counterchanged, overall an elm tree eradicated proper; and with RODRIGO DE CERDANA (badge): Per pale argent and azure, a bend doubly cotised counterchanged. (SCA) The center axe also breaks the rule against counterchanging a skinny object along its long axis, although I"m willing to consider making an exception in this case. (The two surrounding axes suggest the nature of the middle charge.)

Tanczos Istvan (Non Scripta) at 2015-04-06 16:36:34
The axes in this submission are not palewise.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2015-04-07 08:45:33
I would blazon it as: "Per pale argent and azure, on a bend cotised three battleaxes all counterchanged."

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 11:01:08
"cotised" Agree that these axes are not palewise. This no longer conflicts with the devices mentioned in the previous return. No other conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-04-22 20:54:13
Blazon suggestion: Per pale argent and azure, on a bend cotised three battleaxes, all counterchanged.

I didn't find any conflict. Also, there would be no conflict under the current rules with the original submission. Perhaps the submitter can be informed of that?


3: Haukr Kveld-ulfsson -New Name & New Device

Per chevron sable and vert, between three boars contourny argent a chevron ragully Or.

No major changes.
Language (Norse) most important.

<Haukr> is the standard spelling of a name also seen as <Haucr>, <Havkr>,

Havcr>, <Havckr>, and <Ha/ukr>. Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 977

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?977+0

The original Old Norse name is <Kveld-U/lfr> in the standardized scholarly spelling based on 13th century Icelandic writings. Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2113

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2113+0

Correction to Device (2015-Apr-06 18:04:40): Blazon Correction

Per chevron sable and vert,a chevron ragully Or between three boars contourny argent.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2015-04-10 00:14:48
We can simplify this even further down to:

Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 977 says:
"You asked about the masculine Old Norse given name <Haukr> and a patronymic formed from <Kveld-Ulfr>.... <Haukr> appears in the Landnamabo/k....The compound <Kveld-U/lfr>.... We find this used twice, once in the 9th century and once in 1528 [1]. You were interested in using this byname as a descriptive of your father. The patronym formed from this byname would be <Kveldu/lfsson>. The standard Old Norse spelling for "Haukr, son of the one called 'Kveld-U/lfr'" would be <Haukr Kveldu/lfsson>."

The source St. Gabriel is using is Lind Personbinamn, but I suspect there may be a typo in there because:
Lind col. 492 sn. Haukr (image 1)
but
Lind Personbinamn col. 229 sn. Kveld-Úlfr (image 2)

Given that <Kveld-> is treated as a prepended byname, and <Úlfr> as the personal name of the father, I would tentatively suggest <Haukr Kveld-Úlfsson> or, with accents removed <Haukr Kveld-Ulfsson> though.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 11:02:55
Both names are found in Geirr Bassi (a no-photocopy source) on pp. 11 and 24, and the patronymic is correctly formed according to the rules on p. 17. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-04-22 20:57:31
I didn't find any conflict.

Device Comments:

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2015-04-12 22:19:43
I would blazon this as: Per chevron sable and vert, a chevron raguly Or between three boars contourny argent.

No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 11:03:48
"raguly" There seems to be no default posture for boars, so these need to be specified as passant contourny. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-04-22 21:03:24
In the Glossary, there is no default posture for boars. Thus, the blazon should be:

Per chevron sable and vert,a chevron ragully Or between three boars passant contourny argent.
I didn't find any conflict.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2015-04-25 17:28:23
No conflicts found.


4: Johan van Leyden -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 1994, via Trimaris

Per bend gules and azure, a bend between two pistols bendwise contorney and bendwise inverted argent.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2015-04-08 05:49:13

This appears to be a wheel-lock pistol which we register as period. It differs slightly from the standard pistol shown below.
http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=7420
[November 2008 LoAR, A-Artemisia] Gabriel Hawke the Gunsmith. Device. Per pale azure and argent, in fess a hawk displayed belled and jessed per pale argent and sable between two wheel-lock pistols palewise triggers to center argent and sable.
This is the defining instance of a wheel-lock pistol in Society armory. This type of pistol is a period artifact, dating from the early 1500's.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2015-04-21 11:05:40
"contourny" I believe that term is restricted to animate objects. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2015-04-22 21:15:29
Blazon suggestion:

Per bend gules and azure, a bend between a wheel-lock pistol bendwise reversed and a wheel-lockpistol bendwise inverted argent.
This is my best attempt, based on my assumption that a wheel-lock pistol bendwise would have its muzzle to dexter chief and its trigger to dexter base, and that reversing one would put the muzzle to sinister base, while inverting it would put the trigger to chief. However, others may see it differently.

In any case, this fails the unity of posture/orientation requirement.

No conflict found.


Yours in Service,

Honorable Lord Collyne Greymoire

Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris


OSCAR counts 2 Names and 3 Devices. There are a total of 5 items submitted on this letter.