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Trimaris ILoI dated 2014-09-30

Greetings from the Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris,



Welcome esteemed commenters to the September 30th KLoI of Trimaris.



Please accept the following submissions or your consideration.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:31:07
Comments under my name are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoimhin McKee, Sanglier Rouge Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Abigail Lilian d'Arcy -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2009, via Atlantia

Argent, a bat sustaining shears sable and a tierce vert.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:19:49
I find no conflicts.

Diderick van dem Mere (THL Diderick van dem Mere) at 2014-10-06 13:33:55
After looking I find no conflicts on this device. Also I see no set of Precedents that would restrict anything used. Nice device .

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 16:43:12
As of the October 2012 LoAR, the use of a tierce with any other charge is a[n] SFPP.

Assuming the weird combination of the other charge(s) are not also what we used to call a weirdness, no problem. A single Step from Period Practice is acceptable.

Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad) at 2014-10-07 17:14:52
This ruling was also upheld in the May 2014 LoAR.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-10-18 07:35:46
No conflicts found. SFPP as per recent LOAR in 2014 (tierce upheld) as previous said.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 00:05:24
Actually, these are scissors. See Parker for one of the types of shears:
http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/hr/parker/jpglossw.htm#Weavers%27%20Implements

There are two precedents I feel apply:
"We have been using the term scissors in order to distinguish this charge from the more conventional heraldic shears (Parker 614). The shape is period; see The Book of Trades, "The Embroiderer" (p. 33) and "The Tailor" (p. 53). [BoE, 28 Aug 84, p.1]"
"The scissors pictured here are a modern, ergometric pair. Please use a more period representation. [BoE, 15 Dec 85, p.1]"

Also note that, due to the extreme detailing of the bat (see the black & white copy), the bat has been colored in with gray, not black. I don't believe this is acceptable.

Later: I didn't find any conflict. Thank you, Gawain and Magnus, for pointing out these are scissors inverted; I hadn't caught that myself due to not remembering which way up scissors default to.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:32:11
The lower charge is "a pair of scissors inverted". See the Glossary of Terms and the PicDic. No conflicts found.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 18:12:47
No conflict found. Blazon as: "Argent, a bat sustaining by the handles an open pair of scissors inverted sable and a tierce vert."


2: Adelina de Brétigny -New Name & New Device

Per bend urdy argent and vert, semy of sea turtles argent, a willow tree eradicated proper.

No major changes.

Adelina - KWHSS Preceedings A.S. XXIX

Feminine Given Names in the Dictionary of English Surnames, pg 85

de Brétigny - French city where the treaty of Brétigny was signed ending the first part of the 100 years war, mid to late 1300's

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:24:01
I find no conflicts.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-10-19 09:06:58
<Adelina> is dated to 1086, 1210-12 and 1279 s.n. Adeline in "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/reaneyAG.html).

<Bretigny> appears as a place name in Les Croniques et annales de France, depuis la destruction de Troye, jusques au Roy Loys onziesme Volume 2 at p. 27v, published in 1562-66 (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k64243126/f66.image): "à un village appelé Bretingy", which translates as "at a village named Bretigny." Note that there is no accent in the document.

Appendix C allows French and English to be combined as long as there are less than 300 years between the name elements. With the latest date of Adelina in the cited source at 1279, this name meets that requirement.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 18:13:50
I didn't find any conflict.

Thank you, Alys Blue Tyger, for finding some good documentation.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:22:47
I find no conflicts.

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 22:13:15
I recommend dropping a comma in the blazon, thus Per bend urdy argent and vert semy of sea turtles argent, a willow tree eradicated proper.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 00:13:36
I believe this is a weeping willow. Please note the following (somewhat long) precedent:
"On the June 2005 Cover Letter, standards were set out regarding the differences between white willows, weeping willows, and generic trees. At that time, weeping willows were granted a CD from white willows and oak or generic trees, and their use was declared a step from period practice. White willows were not granted a CD from oak or generic trees. Further research by Eastern Crown found that an Arabic expert and a botanist, J. Esteban Hernández Bermejo and Expiración Garcia Sánchez, in "Economic Botany and Ethnobotany in al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula: Tenth - Fifteenth Centuries), an Unknown Heritage of Mankind" (Economic Botany Ja/Mr 1998; 52(1):15-26) and "Estudio premilinar al Libro de Agriculture de Ibn Bassal. IN: Ibn Bassal, El Legado Andalusí" (Granada, 1995. pp. 7-66) have identified four variants of willow, including Salix Babylonica, the weeping willow, in "Libro de Agricultura", a period work by Ibraham ibn Bassal, who lived in Seville and Toledo, Spain in the 11th Century. This research led to declaring weeping willows no longer a step from period practice in March 2011.
"We are hereby overturning the June 2005 precedent, and declaring that willows are willows: while there may be a blazonable distinction between a weeping willow and a white willow, there is no CD between the two, nor is there a CD between a willow of any sort and an oak or generic tree. Both are registerable."

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:36:49
The 3/11 ruling allows weeping willows without difference from other willows, but in any case, this is not a generic willow tree and must be specified as a weeping willow. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 21:57:29
Blazon suggestion: Per bend urdy argent a vert semy of (sea) turtles argent, a weeping willow tree eradicated proper.
IMO the word "sea" could be left off, but since the submitter used it, it's probably better to include it.

I didn't find any conflict.


3: Algirdas of Voruta -Resub Name & New Device

Or, on a mullet azure an owl close maintaining a trident Or.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Lithuanian) most important.

Algirdas - Algirdas, Polish Olgierd (born c. 1296--died 1377), grand duke of Lithuania from 1345 to 1377, - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/15116/Algirdas

of - Preposition

Vortua - One of the most important castles during hte reign of the first and only crowned king of Lithuania.- http://viduramziu.istorija.net/pilys/voruta-en.htm

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-10-02 02:17:18
<Algirdas> is only written as such in modern Lithuanian. For instance, his seal (at least according to wikipedia) spelled his name as <Олгер> or <Olger>.
(http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Lob_%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%9E%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B3% D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B0.svg)
Wickenden sn. Olgird seems to spell it as <Ol'kird> (from <Shvitrikailo Ol'kirdovich'>, ie. Lithuanian <Švitrigaila>)
http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/o.html
and sn. Al'gird (apparently without realising it's the same father?) with:
<Ol'gerd> from <Zedzovit Ioann Ol'gerdovich> *From Moroshkin, so <Zedzovit> could be almost anything...
<Ol'gird> from <Ogrifina Ol'girdovna> (ie. Agrippina Algirdaitė in the list here: http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agripina)
(http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/a.html)

I would suggest <Ol'gird of Voruta> as a more medieval-ish spelling. I suspect a mention of the place could be found in the Volhynia Chronicle and the submitter could even get something like <Ol'gird Vorutinskii>.
(For a more Lithuanian flavour, albeit 16th century, Ragauskaitė, A. 2006. "Vietovardinės kilmės asmenvardžiai ir prievardžiai XVI a. Kauno aktų knygose" [Toponymic names and nicknames in 16th century legal files from Kaunas] Baltu filoloģija 15(1-2);81-94.
(http://www.lu.lv/fileadmin/user_upload/lu_portal/apgads/PDF/BaltuFilologija-XV(1)_2006.pdf) suggests a locative construction like <Vorutinskis>.
If the submitter is interested, let me know!)

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-10-02 03:38:50
Volhynia Chronicle has <Вороута>/<Vorouta>: http://litopys.org.ua/ipatlet/ipat36.htm
ca. 6759 - 6766 AM/1251-1258 CE

<Миндъвгъ... во град. именемь Вороута.>
<Mind"vg" [Mindaugas]... in a town named Vorouta.>

So the Lingua Anglica is <of Voruta>, and I suspect a later-period Lithuanian form based on the Chronicle would be <Voroutinskis>.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:24:33
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:39:24
Docs check out. Glad to see that Goutte d'Eau has provided info on the Lithuanian form for the toponymic so we can trash that intrusive "of".

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 18:20:43
If this is a resub of the name, what happened with the first submission?

I didn't find any conflicts.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 18:25:10
Was the name previously returned at kingdom?

Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad) at 2014-10-21 18:34:54
The original submission was "Algirdas Sinus Gediminaskas".

I was unable to locate the original submission, it's date or the reason it was returned in Kingdom.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-21 20:22:11
Algirda Sinus Gediminakas returned in kingdom (Trimaris) Sept 2010 "This name is returned for presumptuousness, King Aligirdas is the son of Gediminaskas, who was the founder of the Lithuanian Dynasty."

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 20:30:06
That answers that issue. It is nice to see more people interested in the medieval Baltic Sea region.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 22:16:49
Is this submission presumptuous, given the personal name is the name of a king and the byname based on a royal castle? Particularly given the previous return, this looks to me to presume on the same person as before.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-21 22:42:51
I don't believe this is necessarily presumptuous.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:26:46
I find no conflicts.

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 10:37:50
The owl is to sinister:

Or, on a mullet azure an owl close to sinister maintaining a trident Or.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 22:12:17
Owls default to close guardant; I believe they remain close guardant when contourny, so this could be blazoned "Or, on a mullet azure an owl contourny maintaining a trident Or"

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:37:41
No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 22:13:08
I didn't find any conflict.


4: Angela Maria d' Medici -New Name & New Device

Angela Maria d' Medici

Purpure, on a lozenge sable fimbrated a butterfly Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Angela:

s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto - Name appears in census of Florence

s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcVenice.html

Maria:

Di Medici:

Italian Surnames by J.G. Fucilla pg. 167

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:28:49
I find no conflicts. Shouldn't this be <dei Medici>?

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2014-10-04 09:52:28
Yes. "The preposition de' is a scribal abbreviation for the form dei or degli. We do not allow scribal abbreviations, but require the name to be written out completely. As the former is closer in spelling to the submitted form, we have changed it to that form in order to register it." [Mira dei Medici, 12/2012 LoAR, A-Trimaris]

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 17:28:40
The submittor cites Di Medici in her documentation. Can we expand the scribal abbreviation to that instead?

Note that at least in modern Italian, you get d-apostrophe only before vowels, because that's the only place that the ends of della, del, dello, dell', delle, dei, degli get contracted. It is NOT a scribal abbreviation, it represents how speakers pronounce the phrases. Cf. English can't which is pronounced "cant" not "cannot".

I would expect the situation to be the same in the medieval Italian languages--at least insofar as no vowel-less D would occur before a consonant. That is, I would be astonished to discover that d' Medici, even if so spelled, was pronounced without a vowel after the D.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 18:48:54

Italian uses unmarked matronymics so there is a possible claim to be the daughter of Maria dei Medici. Maria de Medici was the Queen of Navarre and another Maria de Medici was the mother of Cosimo de' Medici, Grand Duke of Florence.

[November 2008 LoAR, R-Outlands] Marie de Navarre.
"It also conflicts with Maria de Medici, wife of Henry III, King of Navarre from 1572 to 1610; as Queen Consort of Navarre from 1600 to 1610, she is properly known as Marie de Navarre."

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 00:19:00
In the Admin Handbook, in Appendix F (Name Sources to be Avoided in Documentation) is the section headed:
"Sources to be Used with Caution (with comments)"

The first book mentioned there is:
"Fucilla, Joseph G. Our Italian Surnames
"The focus of this books is on modern American usage, and as such rarely gives dates or other evidence of period usage. Emidio de Felice's dizionario dei cognomi italiani is a better choice."

I'm sure there are better sources for dei/Di/d' Medici. ;-)

Later: I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:41:41
Both given names are listed in "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427" by Arval Benicoeur found at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/. Agree that the preposition should be "dei".

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:30:32
I find no conflicts.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 00:21:09
The full-sized black & white copy shows the dexter chief wingtip just touching the fimbriation. The full-sized color copy doesn't have this problem. Will that be a problem?

Later: I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:42:17
"fimbriated" No conflicts found.


5: Anna of Brineside Moor -New Name & New Device

Argent, a dagger sable entwined with a rose slipped and leaved proper and a base sable bezanty.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (12th or 13th Century Gypsy) most important.

Anna - English Christian Names, The Oxford Dictionary, E.G. Withycombe pg. 25

of - Preposition

Brineside Moor - Brineside Moor, Shire of, This branch-name, registered in June of 1988 (via Trimaris), was changed to Stedborough, Canton of in July of 2011 (via Trimaris).

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-10-02 03:39:50
Edit: moved comment to the right area. Apologies!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 17:43:54
Same here. Thanks, ffride!

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-10-19 09:19:11
Please please please remember to include what the source actually says about the name.

<Anna> appears s.n. Ann in "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/reaneyAG.html) dated to 1199, 1501, 1511, 1512, 1515 and 1524

I do not believe the rules permit the use of a Branch Name that is no longer registered. However, since that is not expressly stated, perhaps this is worth sending up to Pelican for an explicit ruling.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 18:42:54
SENA, PN.1.B.2.f does not say if the Branch Name Allowance is restricted only to current names or not. That, I think, is something Wreath (or Laurel) is going to have to rule on.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 20:27:51

Only the exact registered form of the branch name may be used. This name is not a registered from of the name so the Branch Name Allowance cannot be used here.

Now if we had the documentation used to register Brineside Moor from Lymphad's files it should be possible to redoc the name and make this problem go away.

SENA PN.1.B.2.f. Branch Name Allowance: Name phrases may be created from the registered forms of SCA branches. Only the exact registered form of the branch name may be used, and they are registered in the lingua Anglica form, 'of Branchname'.

[July 2011 LoAR, A-Trimaris] Stedborough, Canton of. Branch name change from Shire of Brineside Moor
Listed on the Letter of Intent as a new branch name, this is actually a change of branch name. Their previous name, Shire of Brineside Moor, is released.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 21:00:57

Middle English Dictionary
s.n. mọ̄r (n.(1))
4. (a) In surnames; (b) in place names
(b) 1543(1464) Hardyng Chron.B (Grafton) p.362: The bishop Scrop went..To Yorkes More.
a1500(?c1450) Merlin (Cmb Ff.3.11) 564: Galiers, the lorde of the haut moor.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:43:13
The name has nothing whatever to do with Romany culture of any period, but is certainly registerable.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 18:43:24
I didn't find any conflict.

Device Comments:

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 22:45:50
First off, this is a natural rose rather than a heraldic rose, so the blazon needs some massaging. Also, had I not seen the emblazon, I would have imagined the dagger having a twisted blade along with the rose stem rather than the rose stem being twisted around the blade of the dagger. There also may be an issue in regards to the rose as I can only see two instances of a natural rose in the OANDA, both from the Eighties. Thoughts?

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-10-08 22:54:47
I couldn't identify the dagger - the cross-bar is too thin. I thought it was some sort of stave.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-09 20:27:04
I didn't mistake the dagger, but I'm tempted to blazon it as a stiletto. Which wouldn't do, of course.

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 10:47:22
Do we not have a complexity of 9 here? Argent, or, sable, vert, gules, base, roundels, dagger, rose?

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 00:35:25
"Device. Gules, a gryphon segreant queue-forchy Or maintaining a raven displayed sable and a garden rose Or slipped and leaved vert.
"There is another step from period practice for the use of a natural rose in profile [Elina of Beckenham, R-Middle, Oct 2012]"

Actually, this rose is somewhat both "in trian aspect" and "in profile" but is a SFPP either way. That, combined with the complexity count of nine, lead me to recommend a return for redrawing. Also, as is clear from the full sized color copy, the dagger is grey, not black, just as with item #1, above.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:45:31
As we so often see, this is not just a garden rose, but a post-period variety of garden rose. Agree that this one is neither affronty nor in profile, but in trian aspect. The primary charge could as easily be called a sword. Fortunately there's no countable difference between the two. No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:48:32
Nothing to see here.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 22:38:46
If this is redrawn with a heraldic rose, it would probably be clear, though that would depend on the exact details of the redrawing.


6: Avellina Ristowen -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Æthelmearc LoI of November 30, 2013 as submitted.

Argent, in bend two pink cherry blossoms leaved and seeded proper, in bend sinister two hummingbirds volant and countervolant proper.

Device Comments:

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-07 18:14:37
Unfortunately, the pink cherry blossoms are (at best) an SFPP under SENA.

"Both the common wild cherry and sour cherry varieties found in Europe have white flowers, not pink, and are typically borne in clusters. Without evidence that pink variants existed in period, they are not registerable." [Belle Cerise]

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/08/12-08lar.html

In addition, the hummingbirds are a New World species, and are thus an SFPP as well, under SENA A.2.B.4.b: http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A2B4b

With two SFPP (or one SFPP and one unregisterable element), I fear this design must be returned.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 18:34:21
The obvious move for a resubmission would be to replace the blossoms with something safely European.

However, I have severe doubts that this design--in bend 2 Xs and in bend sinister 2 Ys without a cross between them--can be found in period armory, even without the not-truly-period kind of symmetry produced by reversing the birds so they can both get their nectar.

If not, this could come under SENA's Appendix J, http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixJ : "All designs with two charge groups are presumed to be registerable except those listed below [which are some truly off-balance arrangements]. New designs may be ruled unregisterable from time to time, if they cannot be found in period armory." [My emphasis added.]

If the submittor resubmits, I would strongly urge her--or better yet, some herald reading this who has a better grasp of period rolls than I claim or am ever likely to!--to document her design as well as her charges.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 22:31:25
Reviewing the above, I realize that is incomplete to the point of error.

The submittor is NOT obliged to document the layout her design. It would indeed be a good thing, but not necessary.

The only way her device could be rejected on style grounds would be that enough senior heralds intimately familiar with period usage had convinced Laurel that this arrangement was never seen in period, and the Sovereign of Arms had therefore decided to disallow it.

Yes, that negative would be just as hard to prove as it sounds. Moreover, even if it happened, there would certainly be grandfathering and possibly a grace period before the rule would come into effect.

My most shamefaced apologies to anyone I have alarmed without cause.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-08 00:08:13
However, there's another problem. Presumably the two birds constitute a charge group. But under heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D2c , SENA A.3.D.2.c, "Unity of Posture and Orientation: The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation (in cross, combatant, or in pall points outward, for example). A charge group in which postures for different charges must be blazoned individually will not be allowed without period examples of that combination of postures."

So this is a case where submittor DOES need to document the design in order to pass. Unless period examples can be found of volant and countervolant for two charges in bend sinister--or even in bend--or at least of something you might call "respectant displaced" or even "combattant displaced" of quadrupeds, one of the hummingbirds is going to have to turn around as though he's already had enough nectar and is leaving.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't get any better if all 4 charges constitute a charge group, either.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-08 00:52:14
For this, the bird postures are identical--what changes is their orientation. Both birds are volant--one is simply volant to sinister (also called countervolant).

If the two birds had been "volant and close" or "volant and migrant," then unity of posture would be an issue.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-08 11:14:08
The section is headed "Unity of Posture and Orientation", and the rule requires "identical postures/orientations" in its first sentence. I assumed that "postures" in the second sentence represented both postures and orientations. If it does not, this a VERY strange rule and heading; if it does, it is .... an inexactly written rule.

I hate to keep pounding on this single device, but there is yet another issue, this one easily dealt with: These are male ruby-throated hummingbirds proper.

And if the submittor and other commentators will permit, I'd like to suggest a few among many other possible redesigns that would leave each bird flying toward his nectar.
Argent, a [European] flower between two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant proper.
Argent, in pale, 3 [European] flowers between two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant proper.
Argent, on a pale gules
(or vert), 3 cinquefoils argent between two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant proper.
Per chevron argent and vert
(or gules), two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant proper and a cinquefoil argent.
In these, cinquefoils of any color could substitute for the flowers and light-tinctured flowers for the cinquefoils.

And all of them, plus one with both birds flying the same way, would match medieval expectations of balance and symmetry, where the original design fits modern aesthetics instead.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-08 11:30:16
It may be a case of inexactly written rule. There are currently five SENA-era examples of two critters "in bend" or "in bend sinister" that is listed as "combattant" or "respectant": Ekaterina Ivanova (December 2012), Ragnarr Biarnarson (November 2012), Gwenhwyvar Dhuin Lis (January 2013), Mathias MacCooel (June 2013), and Anastasia Thea Gemini (June 2013). So if "volant countervolant" is an issue, it can be reblazoned as "respectant" under SENA.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-08 11:45:49
My learned and diligent colleague is correct, and I thank him for the multiple recent examples. The volant respectant birds can get back to their individual blossoms.

I would still urge them not to, since this is not a truly heraldic layout, but it seems that with European flowers for the New World avians to sup from, it can pass.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-08 12:43:22
Another colleague is arguing that basic charge group theory applies here: "If there are no central ordinaries and the armory has a central charge or charges, they are the primary charge group." SENA Appendix I, second paragraph of section A. No provision for if they're two different types, they're two charge groups.

By that standard, the four charges are clearly oriented in saltire. SENA http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D2a , the "Slot Machine" paragraph, allows "two types of charges in a single charge group." So perhaps we should have
Argent, in saltire in bend two [European] blossoms and in bend sinister two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant proper."

The question then become whether this infringes http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D2c , Unity of Posture and Orientation, quoted above.

There are, incidentally, no instances of "... in saltire in bend ..." among our registered devices. But perhaps the concept could be blazoned differently.

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 23:16:13
I just reviewed all of the "in saltire" arms in the OANDA (124, to be exact) that consisted of groups or two or four and found the following: All instances of groups that were in saltire consisting of two were of linear charges that crossed each other in that fashion. All of the charge groups that consisted of four charges in saltire were of the same type of charge, i.e. four daggers, four pheons, etc. I really would recommend that the submitter be contacted an approached with alternative designs. Perhaps leaving the flower in center (after revising the tincture) and putting the hummingbirds in bend respectant so it looks like both are going for the flower, as it were.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-09 18:49:53
Michel, if you would be so kind as to post, email, or PM me the search parameters you used for that review, I would be very grateful. I couldn't get a good search going.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-13 22:43:07
And it looks like it'll stay that way. From the current LOaR, dated August 2014, under ANSTEORRA:

Anastasiia Dmitrieva Sokolova. Device (see PENDS for name). Per chevron vert and argent, two swords in chevron Or and a falcon rising wings displayed sable.
This device is returned for violating SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, which states "A charge group in which postures for different charges must be blazoned individually will not be allowed without period examples of that combination of postures." The charges here are not in a unified arrangement, as the swords must be blazoned separately from the falcon in order to adequately describe their positioning.
That's not how I thought I'd been told unity was achieved when a group consisted of two different types of charges, but there it is. If Mistress Sokolova's submission couldn't get through, clearly Mistress Ristowen will at minimum have to rearrange her elements as well as changing some.

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2014-10-08 23:16:32
Another issue that needs to be addressed is the color of the hummingbirds. The only "proper" hummingbirds I have found were registered in 1979 and in 1988. These were initially registered using Linnean proper and were reblazoned in December 2007 to correct postures. When reblazoned, the Linnean terminology was removed although the term "proper" remained. All the remaining hummingbirds registered seem to be blazoned using normal heraldic conventions (all color, all metal, or a combination of colors such as vert throated gules). As there are over 300 varieties of hummingbirds, there does not seem to be default coloration.

These birds have a large amount of gray on a white field which gives very low contrast.

These really need to be recolored.

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 23:30:04
Or change the field to a neutral tincture...

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2014-10-09 11:38:19
That would take care of the contrast issue but not the "proper" color problem.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-09 12:32:46
Why wouldn't a male ruby-throated hummingbird proper, as I proposed above, work?

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-09 13:03:31
It probably would for our purposes. Indeed--because the ruby-throated hummingbird is the only species that habitually nests east of the Mississippi river--I could even see an argument that this be treated as a "default" hummingbird as having a good chance of success.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-09 15:43:48
[Trying not, as an Artemisian, to bristle:] What's the Mississippi got to do with it?

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-09 18:43:55
It has to do with the part of SENA A.2.B.4.b: http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A2B4b Which states"Plants and animals from outside Europe which were known to Europeans in period are registerable but a step from period practice.........be known to Europeans before 1600 (from the interior of Africa, northern Asia, or parts of the United States that were not systematically explored by Europeans before 1600, for example)."

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-10 17:21:19
I realized that semi-obvious answer after I posted, and I thank you for giving the useful citation. (I might have thought of the Appalachians rather than the Mississippi as the divider, but then they don't run down to the coast.)

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-09 22:42:46
There are many different species of hummingbirds of various colors and patterns found in Mexico, which was more heavily explored in the 16th century by the Spanish than the US. I'm not that optimistic about coming up with a default hummingbird without some research into period documents.

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2014-10-09 14:24:37
Sorry, I lost that statement when I was writing my commentary.

As I said earlier, the only previously registered "proper" ruby-throated hummingbirds were registered in 1979 and 1988 and reblazoned in 2007.

Personnally, I think there are too many species to select a single one as the default.

The following link provides a list of hummingbirds found in each state/province of the US & Canada: http://www.hummingbirds.net/states.html

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:19:48
These cherry blossoms look to be Prunus yedoensis (Yes, I know the CoA doesn't blazon with genus and species, but using genus and species can be helpful at times). They have single flowers, not clusters, and they are pink. P. yedoensis comes from Japan, but they are grown as ornamentals in a wide variety of places. For example, the famous cherry trees of the "Tidal Basin" area in DC are this species.

Japan had some contact with the "outside world" at the end of our period, so there's a chance the pink-flowered cherry was known to Europe in period. I don't have the resources to check on that, however.

The hummingbirds are "hovering respectant"---see the registration for Elizabeth Margarete:
http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Elizabeth%20Margarete
There is no "unity of posture" issue since charges do not have to have their postures blazoned separately.

I don't believe one can blazon them simply as "proper," and whether specifying them as male ruby-throated hummingbirds proper would work I cannot guess; that, I think, would be something Wreath would have to rule on.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-21 09:32:11
I'm comfortable with Europeans having seen Prunus yedoensis, and seeing hummingbirds in North America, both before the 1600 cut-off. Unfortunately, since they're both non-European species, this is two SFPP. :(

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 19:10:26
That is an excellent point. It looks to me like she'll have to either drop the hummingbirds, or use a European species of cherry, I believe none of which have pink flowers.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 13:52:06
Let me repeat, perhaps more cogently, the argument I made above, which Basil Dragonstrike's comment seems to ignore.

If there is no unity of posture issue here, then there was none in the case of Anastasiia Dmitrieva Sokolova's device, Per chevron vert and argent, two swords in chevron Or and a falcon rising wings displayed sable, rejected in the current LOaR, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/08/14-08lar.html, under Ansteorra, so Laurel and his advisors were in error in claiming

The charges here are not in a unified arrangement, as the swords must be blazoned separately from the falcon in order to adequately describe their positioning.
Now, I'm not prepared to argue that they don't know the meaning of http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D2c
c. Unity of Posture and Orientation: The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation (in cross, combatant, or in pall points outward, for example). A charge group in which postures for different charges must be blazoned individually will not be allowed without period examples of that combination of postures.
But if the Trimaris College of Heralds is prepared to--perhaps based on previous contrary rulings not known to me--then they should send this on up with their arguments. Note that my previous sentence is neither sarcasm nor cynicism ("You can't fight City Hall"); Basil Dragonstrike is among several competent heralds I have seen claim that the cited paragraph is inapplicable to such arrangements, and while Laurel is the final arbiter of the rules, I expect that mistakes have been made and corrected at that level in the past.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 18:57:57
The issue is that the CoA has consistently, and I believe in harmony with the original intent of SENA, stressed the following part of A.3.D.2.c:
"A charge group in which postures for different charges must be blazoned individually will not be allowed without period examples of that combination of postures." {emphasis added}

From what I have seen, when part of a charge does not have to have its posture/orientation blazoned at all (due to being in a default or only-possible posture/orientation), and the rest can be blazoned with a single term, the unity of posture/orientation rule has not been invoked to return the item.

As an example, consider Elizabeth Margarete,. whom I mentioned above. Her resub (a redrawing to fix chevron issues) can be seen at:
https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=40258

This submission was passed, and can be found on the June 2014 LOAR:
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/06/14-06lar.html#259

As you can see, the "unity of posture/orientation" issue was solved by taking advantage of the fact that the dragon was in its default posture, and thus the posture did not have to be blazoned.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 19:14:44
So this month's rejection can be solved by resubmitting, e.g., Per chevron vert and argent, two swords [palewise] Or and a falcon rising wings displayed sable or Per chevron vert and argent, two swords in chevron Or and a falcon [close] sable.

But doesn't the current device fail because it has two orientations? (I really wish they'd include "orientations" in that sentence, instead of relying on "postures" to mean "postures/orientations" parallel to the first sentence.) Argent, in bend two pink cherry blossoms leaved and seeded proper, in bend sinister two hummingbirds volant respectant proper.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-21 19:36:24
Again, we have multiple examples of two critters in bend (or in bend sinister) blazoned "respectant" or "addorsed," or "combattant." The position and orientation of the hummingbirds is not, to the best of my understanding, an issue.

If the phrase "volant conter-volant" is causing a problem, then reblazon it as "in bend sinister two hummingbirds volant respectant."

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 23:28:43
Not to the point. The question is whether in one 4-member charge group one pair of charges can be in bend and another pair in bend sinister.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-22 06:42:24
We have 37 prior registrations, the most recent being in August of 2012. (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_complexb.cgi?w1=1&m1=blazon+pattern&p1=in+bend+two&w2=1&m2=blazon+pattern &p2=in+bend+sinister+two&w3=1&m3=armory+description&p3=&w4=1&m4=armory+description&p4=&w5=1&m5=armo ry+description&p5=&w6=1&m6=armory+description&p6=&w7=1&m7=armory+description&p7=&w8=1&m8=armory+des cription&p8=&w9=1&m9=armory+description&p9=&w10=1&m10=armory+description&p10=&l=500&s=score+and+bla zon&d=modern&g=disabled&a=disabled)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-22 13:30:25
That in August of 2012 is Sean Fitzpatrick Desmuimneach's device, Quarterly vert and sable, a Celtic cross between in bend two toads and in bend sinister two harps argent. That is a W between in bend 2 Xs and in bend sinister 2 Ys with no postures blazoned. The 4 relevant charges constitute a secondary charge group, and the pattern strikes me as, if not actually period in construction, much closer than the current submission.

There are a number of earlier registrations matching that pattern, the next earliest being Erhart von Stuttgart's in August of 2011, Sable, a cross between in bend two eagles and in bend sinister two sinister gauntleted fists Or.

The most recent with a a posture required to be blazoned separately is Thomas Saer Glamorgan's device registered in February of 2008, Per pale gules and Or, a tower sable between in bend two carpenter's squares, corners to chief, and in bend sinister two frame saws, all counterchanged. This is pre-SENA.

The earliest registration of in bend 2 Xs and in bend sinister 2 Ys as a primary charge group (I'm sorry I can't translate that into Complex Search, but 37 is few enough for me to just inspect) is Magdalen Woderose's device in September of 2007, Per bend sinister purpure and argent, in bend two unicorns rampant and in bend sinister two roses all counterchanged. Incidentally, if we leave out the default "rampant", no postures. (Since for some reason I had a little trouble visualizing this, a screen capture from http://op.atlantia.sca.org/op_ind.php?atlantian_id=4088 may be seen below.)

The next earliest as a primary charge group is in Fergus MacLennan's device registered in October of 2002 and retained as a badge in October of 2004, Quarterly embattled vert and Or, in bend two wolves salient argent and in bend sinister two Celtic crosses vert, with the wolves not in default position. And before that we have Sean O'Nolan's in 1994 and 7 others, all 8 on fields quarterly, for a total of 10, none on plain fields.

Nor do any have the charges so placed as to strongly suggest interaction among them, as in the current submission. It seems to me relevant that if the field were quarterly rather than plain, the lower bird's beak would not be above one of its flower's petals.

The fact that we all so automatically assign a flower for each bird to sup from (you did immediately understand the preceding sentence, didn't you?) demonstrates what I have at last realized fundamentally bothers me: If this submission does not qualify as excessively pictorial or excessively naturalistic under the letter of the rules, it does so in spirit.

1: Image 1

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-22 13:50:12
To my eye, you bring up a very good issue--the pictorial depiction. That is a separate situation from the "in bend combattant/respectant/addorsed" situation, but it is also something to consider.

I don't view this as _overly_ pictorial. Yeah, it is kinda pictorial, but it's not an obvious landscape. I think that part of it is doable.

The "in bend/in bend sinister combattant/respectant/addorsed" ... that's problematic. As the rules stand, it's allowable, though I quite agree that it's not very good style.

The two SFPP--that's an immediate insta-boing.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-22 13:33:35
And what I should have said first (but don't want to go back and edit into the previous post, thus risking the whole interminable thing turning into italics): Thank you VERY much for procuring the evidence we need, Kraken!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:49:32
"barbed and seeded" Agree that hummingbirds are found in many tinctures, so there is no proper tincture for them. No conflicts found.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-21 19:40:19
I don't think "barbed" applies to non-roses--to the best of my understanding, cherry blossoms don't have hard coverings to their buds that stick out like the barbs on roses.

Though I could be wrong--I know more about heraldic flowers than the real things. :)

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 23:02:01
If this was changed to cherry blossoms gules (or another color) and the hummingbirds made a heraldic tincture, I think it would be clear of conflict. Though if such a change is made, I'd do another conflict check just to be sure.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-22 00:29:12
Name registered February 2014.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-22 13:52:29
OK--our goal is to get things good enough to pass. This has to be returned, _but_ I believe that optimally, if we return it with suggestions to make it work, that will be far better than a simple return.

Suggestions for making it work: 1. This design will work better in per saltire, with the hummingbirds respectant and the flowers in pale. 2. The pink cherry blossoms are not workable--however, they can be replaced with a pink flower native to Europe, OR recolored in a heraldic tincture. (Someone suggested gules--that's workable.) 3. If client decides to do white cherry blossoms proper, recommend a per saltire field treatment for good contrast. 4. The hummingbirds are a SFPP. One SFPP is allowable--though we don't encourage them, designs with one SFPP can be registered.

Are these workable suggestions?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-23 12:30:56
Agreed, they all are. One other option: Quarterly gules and argent, in bend two cherry blossoms argent leaved and seeded proper and in bend sinister two male ruby-throated hummingbirds volant respectant.

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon (Kraken) at 2014-10-23 12:44:17
I'd be worried about marshalling with that setup.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-23 22:09:18
As would I have been, had I been fully awake. So make it Per pale and per fess invected gules and argent, ...

Thanks, Kraken!


7: Bryndis Fasthalda -New Alternate Name Change

OSCAR finds the name on the Trimaris LoI of January 31, 2010 as Bryndis fasthalda.

Bryndis Hrafnhauss

Old Item: Bryndis Fasthalda, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a feminine name.
Culture (Norse) most important.
Meaning most important.

Bryndis: Previously Registered

Hrafnhauss: Geirr Bassi - pg. 23

Alternate Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-03 21:31:16
The name looks good.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:51:02
Not clear: does the client want the new name to be her primary name? Docs check out. Idle thought: did "raven skull" have the same connotation as today's "birdbrain"?

Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad) at 2014-10-21 18:16:29
Yes, the client wants this to become her primary name, and she want's to keep the previous as an alternate.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 19:02:58
Administrative note---on the April 2010 LOAR, her name was registered as Bryndis fasthǫld:
"Bryndis fasthǫld. Name.
"Listed on the LoI as Bryndis fasthalda, this name was submitted as Bryndis fasthaldi. The byname fasthalda was proposed as a feminine form of fasthaldi. However, according to the rules of feminization of adjectives given by Geirr Bassi on p. 19 of The Old Norse Name, the appropriate feminine form of fasthaldi is fasthǫld. We have changed the name to Bryndis fasthǫld in order to register it."
Thus, she cannot keep Brindis Fasthalda as an alternate name, because she never registered it in the first place. What administrative action will be required is more than I know.

I didn't find any conflict with this submitted name.


8: Cesare Boni of the Ruins -Resub Name & New Device

Purpure, a cross patonce between two boars in bend and two lutes in bend sinister argent.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for Italian.

Name was previously submitted as: Ceasare of the Ruins

Reason Returned: Could Cesare be equivalent to a title (Caesar)?

Cesare is found as a male given name in Names in 15th Century Florence and her Dominions: the Condado by Juliana de Luna <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/mensalpha.html>

Boni A Listing of Family names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427, by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith)

<http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/familyalpha.html>

of the Ruins Local Shire group name, Trimaris (via Meridies 1983)

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:51:46
Cesare Borgia (~1475-1507) was the son of Pope Alexander VI. Docs for the rest of the name check out.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 19:16:17
Documents check out. I didn't find any conflict.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:23:59
Blazon recommendation: Purpure, a cross patonce between in bend two boars passant and in bend sinister two lutes argent.

This is the default posture for lutes (see the Glossary), so their posture need not be stated, thereby avoiding the "unity of posture" problem.

Later: I believe this is clear of:
"Celestria of Celtenhomme
"The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of 2003 (via Calontir):
"Purpure, a cross crescenty argent."

The LOAR in which Celestria's badge was registered said:
"A cross crescenty has each arm ending in a crescent with its horns pointing outwards"

Thus, I think it very likely to be at least a DC from a cross patonce. The addition of the secondary charge group is another DC, meaning they are not in conflict.

I didn't find anything else of note. Looks clear to me.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:52:11
No conflicts found.


9: Claire Libraire -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Meaning ("Bright, Clear, Fair" - "bookseller") most important.

Claire Roger Berger, et. al- Repertoire Des Noms De Personnes Artesiens En 1569 pg. 208

Libraire Colm Dubh - Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role of Paris pg.13 KWHS - AS XXXV

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-10-19 09:23:44
"Occupational Bynames in the 1292 Tax Role of Paris" by Colm Dubh can also be found here: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/parisbynames.html <libraire> is found in the article as the male form of the occupational byname for "bookseller." It appears in "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" by Colm Dubh (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paris.html) as the marked <le libraire>.

I am not sure exactly how this byname would be feminized.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:53:32
Dauzat's entry for the given name supports it as existing in period. (This doesn't have quite the rhythm of "Marian the Librarian", but close! Perhaps she would agree to inserting "la" before the surname.)

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 19:24:53
I didn't find any conflicts.

I agree that the byname probably needs to be feminized, and I too have no idea how to do so.

Song Zidie at 2014-10-29 15:19:35
Libraire, at least modernly, is the same whether it's masculine or feminine, so there's no need to feminise the noun. Just add <la> in front and you're good to go. http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/libraire


10: Drahomira Košice -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Draumr, House(11/1977), Drimore, House (8/1980)

Drahomira Košice

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Czech/Slovak) most important.

Drahomira - Female Name Czech/Slovak, documented as early as 89 AD (Drahomira of Stodor, Mother of King Wencelas). Meaning from Dorgu (Precious) and Mir (Peaceful). Ref: Catholic Encyclopedia

<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09416a.htm>

Košice - A town in current Slovak Republic established prior to the Mongol invasion of 1241, currently existing.

<http://www.kosice.sk>

Name Comments:

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2014-10-02 19:41:21
The date that a town was established is largely irrelevant: what we need to know is when the _name_ came into use. For this submission, it would also be good to have evidence of unmodified placenames used as bynames in a language compatible with the given name.

A quick paraphrased translation of Kiss Lajos s.n. Kassa:

'city in eastern Slovakia, Košice'. [1230: Cassa.] A bare personal name that became a placename by the usual Hungarian pattern; compare the personal names 1138/1329 Kasa, 1214/1334/1342 Kassa, 1358 Kosa. The Slovak form 'Košice', evidenced from the 15th century, is basically a plural: 'the Kosas, Kosa's descendants', a parallel formation to the Hungarian name.
Unfortunately, he fails to give an actual source or citation for the vague 15c reference, so I have no idea what spelling was used in period. I also don't have any information ready to hand about locative bynames in period Slovak. Modernly, they're typically formed with a -ski suffix (in various spellings), although other suffixes also occur.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:54:32
What he said!

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 19:56:56
I didn't find any conflict. However, I'm not sure if the source for the first name is using standardized/modernized forms or not, and the submitter supplied nothing that shows the in-period name of the town. Also, as Kolosvari Arpadne Julia points out, there's the question of how a locative should be formed.

Appendix C lists Slovak as a North Slavic language, but the entry for North Slavic in Appendix A only gives name forms for Polish. It says:
"All patterns in Czech must be documented."
I think it likely the same is true of Slovak, which this submitter has failed to do. IMO, this needs to be returned for lack of documentation, with a note that if re-submitted the form of the name as well as the personal name and the town name need to be fully documented. YMMV.

Device Comments:

Ogawa Matajirou Ujimori (Tanaka Ujimori) at 2014-10-01 22:26:23
An artist's note should be included to beef up the trimount.

Blazon-fu (I think...): "Argent, on a pale raguly sable a wolf rampant contourny argent in base a trimount gules."

Also, out of curiosity, are the rags supposed to be a sort of "raguly counter-raguly", and would that need to be blazoned?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 23:07:46
From the multiple examples I've seen (tho others have undoubtedly seem more than I have), that trimount doesn't need enlarging. And doing so certainly wouldn't benefit the clarity of the pale.

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 10:57:33
The trimount doesn't need enlarging but the individual mounts should probably be made more distinct so it doesn't look like a single mount from a distance.

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 23:27:51
Funny this didn't come with a blazon. In my mind, Tanaka is close. Blazon : Argent, on a pale raguly sable a wolf rampant contourny argent, a trimount gules. Trimounts issue from base on default. As far as the raguly/counterraguly, I n my mind it would make the jags point to opposite directions. I thinks it fine just stating raguly.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:33:45
The trimount definitely needs to be made more distinct; this could be taken (esp. at a distance) as simply a base enarched.

Julian Franklyn (Shield and Crest) says the "gaps" and "lands" should be opposite each other; he doesn't mention a "bretessed" raguly. This depiction is neither the standard depiction nor "bretessed," but somewhere in between. IMO, that strongly suggests the need for a redrawing.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 14:20:39
We have previously registered a chevron raguly bretessed and just this August a fess raguly bretessed, so I suppose we can't carp about a pale raguly bretessed. But like Basil Dragonstrike and Franklyn (whose book was my first introduction to this discipline), I am opposed to accepting a pale raguly bendwise bretessed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 15:46:46
Correction: If I understand Dragonstrike correctly, the standard depiction for a pale raguly as described by Franklyn IS bretessed, assuming the word means the same for a pale raguly as it does when applied by itself to a fess or in a fess raguly bretessed as just registered by Laurel for Oissíne Cú mac Ciarmaicc and shown below: Lands opposite lands and gaps opposite gaps.

Certainly an image search finds plenty of both fesses and pales apparently blazoned as just "raguly" both with gaps precisely opposite lands as well and bretessed, and at least in the 19th century both arrangements were used for the fess in the arms of Judd: http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/ordinaries/fess-raguly-between

See also the Fox-Davies figure displayed below in a different comment of mine.

But in no case are they offset by half a unit.

(As perhaps most of us know, the reason for calling a fess "bretessed" is that a fess embattled has crenels and merlons only on the top edge, but this does not apply to pales. The part I had to look up is that a fess bretessed has them on both sides opposite each other, while being offset makes the fess embattled counter-embattled.)

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:55:43
"Argent, on a pale raguly sable issuant from a trimount gules, a wolf(?) contourny argent." Agree that the trimount needs to be drawn more distinctly. See Fox-Davies' CGH for a nice picture of a pale raguly that supports this one. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 15:58:13
Fox-Davies's figure 89 from his A Complete Guide to Heraldry, available by paging down at http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/hr/foxdavies/fdguide09.htm or separately thru Wikimedia at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Complete_Guide_to_Heraldry_Fig089.png and reproduced below for convenience, does not in fact support this emblazon. His figure indeed differs from Franklyn--being as I described above, gaps precisely opposite lands--but is not like this emblazon offset by half a unit.

1: Image 1

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-22 17:59:49
I didn't find any conflict.

To clarify my earlier comment: my concern with the way this pale raguly is drawn is that the lands and gaps are neither across from the same kind nor across from the opposite kind, which gets into "blurring a distinction" land.


11: Ellisif hvítaský -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2009, via Trimaris

Per chevron inverted argent and vert, a compass rose gules and a rabbit courant argent.

Device Comments:

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 11:03:37
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:56:16
No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-22 18:09:07
I didn't find any conflict.


12: Hildr Rauðrefr -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Halldóra refr(1/2013)

Or, a raven displayed sable a fox sejant gules and on a pointed point sable an adze Or.

No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for 9th Century Norse.
Culture (Norse) most important.

Hildr - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, Old Norse Name Book pg. 11

Rauðrefr - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, Old Norse Name Book pg. 26

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-10-02 01:43:30
<rauðrefr> is a known error in Geirr Bassi for the byname <rauðnefr> (red-nose).

The May 2012 LoAR says sn. Sorcha rauðrefr
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/05/12-05lar.html
"...the byname cited from Geirr Bassi has been demonstrated to be an error; instead of rauðrefr, the documented byname is rauðnefr "red nose." Barring evidence that a byname meaning "red fox" is reasonable, this name cannot be registered. This byname cannot be constructed, as there are no other bynames that combine color and an animal name in a single byname.

One solution for the Old Norse bynames is to use two different bynames: one meaning "red" and another meaning "fox." This would be in rauða refr."

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:57:14
Given name doc checks out.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 20:25:25
The only thing I find that's close is:
"Halldor Rauthbjorn
"This name was registered in March of 1989 (via the Middle)."

My understanding is that Scandinavian names that end in consonant-R are sometimes pronounced as if there were a short vowel before the R, so I think Halldor and Hildr are insufficiently different in sound. Also the ð is a th sound. Thus, the question hinges on the difference between the syllables "refr" and "bjorn". Under SENA PN.C.3.2, with changes to the vowel and the consonants on both sides, these are clear.

If this were changed to Hildr in rauða refr it would be clear by adding at least one name element, compared to every registered Hildr/Halldor/etc.

In short, no conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Johann vom Hasengraben at 2014-10-07 21:22:03
Isn't "pointed point" one of those constructions we do not blazon in context of SCA? I could not find a single instance of "pointed point" in Oanda (but I must be considered a novice in this.)

However, by quick Googling, this can be found, for example, in "Encyclopaedia Heraldica Or Complete Dictionary of Heraldry"; William Berry, 1828.

(http://books.google.fi/books?id=w_5BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR500&lpg=PR500&dq=heraldry+pointed+point&source=bl& ots=yopA2jR4ii&sig=9QJ6XFLGd9_TspUoi-wU2s0SOtQ&hl=fi&sa=X&ei=yZg0VILdL6LnygOL_4DICw#v=onepage&q=her aldry%20pointed%20point&f=false)

Could "Per chevron abased Or and sable, a raven displayed sable a fox sejant gules and an adze Or" be a better blazon?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 23:13:22
Nothing like not reading what's in front of you. I went searching for a

point pointed

on the Blazon Pattern Search Form and found 176 examples. And only then realized that the blazon did indeed say "a pointed point" instead!

So let's fix the blazon that way, okay?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 23:44:44
However, this is a case where, as the saying goes, you can't blazon yourself out of trouble.

This device is egregiously "slot machine" heraldry, forbidden under SENA A.3.D.2.a, heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D2a: 3 utterly unrelated charges tossed onto a field in an unheraldic arrangement.

If we regularly carved our arms as bas reliefs, or drew them to represent such, it might be tenable to say that these arms had a point pointed, because you could see that the critters and point were all higher than the field and the axes was higher than the point.

But given that in the SCA arms can be expected to be reproduced in paint and/or fabric, what we have here is actually what Johann vom Hasengraben blazoned above--except that the per chevron isn't abased all that much. It's certainly too high for what's below it to be an acceptable point pointed. Which puts the 3 (wildly) dissimilar charges into a single charge group and thus runs afoul of A.3.D.2.a.

I suppose this would be remediable by making the point pointed about 25% smaller, so that's clearly what it is, and it no longer looks like a slightly "off" field division. I'd still consider it poor style, but it would cease to be rejectably bad style.

The most obvious complete redesign--still poor style, but not rejectably so--would be Or, in fess a raven displayed sable and a fox sejant gules, on a chief sable an adze Or.

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-08 23:37:49
Agreed with the slot machine issue based on the visual weight of the charges. This is also somewhere in the netherlands between a base pointed and a per chevron division. I recommend getting rid of the base, making the raven displayed (a step from period practice) and fox larger and placing the axe on the fox as a tertiary charge.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-09 07:03:06
This would not be considered "Slot machine",since the axe is not placed on the field, but on the "base" it would be a secondary charge. The raven and the fox are co-primaries. This would be more obvious if the "pointed point" were drawn correctly(smaller).

Michel von Schiltach at 2014-10-09 08:42:26
This is neither a per chevron division, nor a properly drawn point pointed, as the tip of the point is just shy of the fess line. The point should be redrawn so that the tip goes no higher than 1/3 the height of the field and the adze be resized to fit it. This would resolve the visual appearance of slot machine.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 23:43:36
See the December 2010 and May 2011 Cover Letters for "From Wreath: Chevrons, Per Chevron, and Their Inversions."

In short, if the field division is drawn from the per bend marks on the form and does not divide the field into two equal areas Wreath will return it.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:40:59
I agree that this is neither a point pointed nor a per chevron division, and that if it were redrawn as per chevron it would be "slot machine."

Further, the raven is drawn in a non-heraldic and highly stylized manner. In fact, I could barely recognize it as a bird before I read the blazon. I recommend a redrawing to make it look like a heraldic bird, and to shrink the point pointed. Note as well, that even after that, the non-eagle in a displayed posture is a SFPP and will be conflict checked as a generic bird.

Another problem with the way the raven is drawn is that there are IMO two different tertiary charge groups (the roundels and the gouts?/commas?/tomoe?), which is not permitted.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 16:31:57
I had no trouble whatever recognizing the raven as a bird; however, I believe only its sable tincture made me see a raven. (I've seen eagles displayed with equally ragged wing- and tail-feathers.)

While the stylization of the wings is not wholly heraldic, I don't think that should result in their being seen as charged with tomoes, themselves charged with roundels, any more than the raven's eye is a bezant charged with an ogress.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 20:27:26
Actually, I see roundels on the wings, and quite definite tomoe/gouts/commas on the legs.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-22 11:29:34
I see them too (even tho I had been looking for large black tomoe on the wings, not transparent ones on the thighs), but do not see why they should be considered charges in this case.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:59:48
The point pointed would be better drawn rather smaller, but it's pretty clearly not a per chevron divided field. That tool looks more like an axe. An adze has its edge perpendicular to the handle, like a hoe. No conflicts found. Caoimhin notes that it's odd that the fox and "adze" are drawn realistically while the raven is quite stylized. We agree that it doesn't affect registerability at all.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 16:41:01
The tool is definitely an axe. An adze blade, besides being set at right angles to that depicted, rarely flares as much as that shown.


13: Ionait of Swampkeype -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No minor changes.

Ionait <http://www.namenerds.com/irish/trad.html>

of preposition

Swampkeype Local Canton group name, Trimaris

Name Comments:

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 11:20:43
The page cited is a list of "traditional" Irish names with no dates or sources. Even the website itself says that if you're looking for an SCA name, start there. Unfortunately, I have not found this name in any other source. The site does have a bibliography page. I sent an email to the site owner to see whether we can track down the original source.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-10-19 09:44:25
Ionait is a wholly modern form. The period form is <Idnat>, which is found in OCM p. 116 but only as the mother and daughter of a saint, with no dated forms. As she is merely a relative of a saint, and not a saint herself, precedent states that this name is not registerable without evidence of its use by humans in period. [Dáirine ingen Chiaragain, 06/2002, R-Atlantia]

Would the submitter be interested in something like <Iona>? That can be documented as an English female name:

Iona Branwost; Female; Marriage; 30 Jul 1598; Church-Gresley, Derbyshire, England; Batch: M01963-2 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NN8N-MXP)
Iona Appleyearde; Female; Christening; 17 Jan 1584; Almondbury, York, England; Batch: C01712-2 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWWG-XH4)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:01:21
Thanks to Blue Tyger for information on the given name that looks a good deal more reliable.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 21:04:51
In June 1991 the name Swampkeep was registered.

In May 1993, in the acceptance of a badge it was said:
"The canton's name was registered as Swampkeep on the LoAR of June 91. The submitter's forms suggest they think it was registered as Swampkeype. They are welcome to submit a name change, but they should use the registered form of the name until then."

In March 1994 a name change was returned:
"Swamp Keype, Canton of. Name change from Swampkeep, Canton of.
"Given the combination of weak evidence for this spelling of the noun "keep", the modification to the name by splitting into two parts the already registered name (not a common English period practice, under the best circumstances) and then modifying the spelling of only the last element, we find the combination highly unlikely."

In March 2003 the submission of "Sylvana the Grey-Eyed" was returned and her armory was registered under the holding name "Candice of Swampkeep".

In May 2005 was registered the name "Christoff of Swampkeep."

In December 2005 the submission of "Þorstenn vinstri handar" was returned, and the armory registered under the holding name "Þorsteinn of Swampkeype".

I can find nothing from May 2005 onwards about the canton trying to change its name. I can only conclude that the canton has, regardless of the warning issued in May 1993 and regardless of the return of their name in March 1994, continued to defy the College of Arms and the rules of the SCA by using a name they have not registered and is thus not entitled to use. Further, it looks to me that the creation of the holding name "Þorsteinn of Swampkeype" was an error. As such, it may be changed by Wreath/Laurel in an Errata Letter, and I strongly suggest that be done.

In conclusion, the name "Ionait of Swampkeype" cannot be allowed under the Branch Name Allowance (PN.a.B.2.f). If she can document it, that would be fine; personal and non-personal names do not conflict.

Given the problem(s) with the given name pointed out by Alys Blue Tyger, as well as with the byname, it looks to me like this will need to be returned. YMMV.


14: Katherine verch Evan -New Name & New Device

Vert, three chevrons braced and in chief three stawberries argent.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Culture (Welsh) most important.

Katherine - Female Welsh Given Name, Women's Names in the First Half of the 16th Century Wales, by Heather Rose Jones

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/welshfem16/given.html

verch - Welsh for Daughter of, Women's Names in the First Half of the 16th Century Wales, by Heather Rose Jones

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/welshfem16/origins.html

Evan - Male Welsh Given Name, Some 16th & 17th C Welsh Masculine Names, by Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/welsh/welsh.html

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:01:41
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 21:14:56
The documentation looks good.

I didn't find any conflict.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:45:59
Blazon fix: those are strawberries. I'd like to see the strawberries with less detailing. Question: should the leaves and stem be blazoned? I believe so, but admit they're rather small in this depiction (esp. the leaves).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:03:06
Agree with Basil's spelling correction. Multiple chevrons are blazoned as chevronels. If they are braced, they should not just overlap, but should be interlaced. The PicDic entry for "chevron" has an illustration. No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-22 18:35:59
There may or may not be a conflict:
"Joanna de Lisane
"Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in August of 1977:
"Vert, three chevronels interlaced, in chief between two compass-stars a fleur-de-lys voided argent."

There's a DC for the type of the secondaries. Under A.5.C.2.d, the fleur-de-lys is not half the charge group; thus, changing its tincture is not worth a DC. While Joanna's device could be considered as a fleur-de-lys argent charged with one vert (thereby giving a second DC for removing the tertiary charge group), it can be considered as a fleur-de-lys vert, fimbriated argent, and (as I said) it doesn't give a DC for change of tincture because it's less than half the charge group. Mind you, if the compass-stars are also voided, then there's a DC for type and another for tincture of the secondary charge group.

I didn't find anything else.

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2014-10-23 21:15:45
These are chevronels not chevrons.

The term "braced" indicates that the chevronels are interlaced. However these chevronels are not interlaced but are each drawn in a separate layer. Judicious use of whiteout (with the submitter's permission) would resolve that problem.

No conflict found.


15: Kolvallr Hergeirsson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2009, via Trimaris

Sable, on a plate argent a clenched gauntlet sable.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:03:25
No conflicts found.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 23:26:18

This may conflict with Shron Ravenhair. One DC for change of type of the tertiary. Nothing for the quaternary compass star.
The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1981 (via Atenveldt):
Sable, on a plate a mullet of six points throughout sable charged with a compass star of twelve points throughout pierced argent.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-22 18:58:55
I agree that that is a conflict. I didn't find any others.

The most recent ruling WRT quaternary charges is:
" David Straker Whittaker. Device. Sable, a heart gules fimbriated and in base two mice sejant erect respectant argent.
"This device is returned for conflict with the badge of Zoren uff Eiren, Sable, a heart gules voided Or and fimbriated argent. While you can blazon your way out of a style problem, you cannot blazon your way out of a conflict. The hearts in both designs can be blazoned as on a heart argent a heart gules; by long-standing precedent, we must ignore the quaternary heart Or on Zoren's badge. There is therefore one DC for the addition of the mice, but nothing else. [R-Caid, 4/2014]"

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-22 20:53:43
SENA opened some new heraldic real estate in the "on a heart" and "on a roundel" simple armory. The submitter should be able to find a simple change to clear it. Change of type isn't as powerful to clear items when it's a tertiary group instead of a primary.


16: Líadan ingen Diarmata -New Name & New Device

Azure, a seaturtle and a chief wavy argent three escallops inverted vert.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity.
Language (8th - 10th Century Irish) most important.
Culture (8th - 10th Century Irish) most important.

Líadan - OCM, pg. 122 <http://www.s-gabriel.org/3112>

"We have found references to four early or semi-legendary women named <Li/adan>: two saints, the mother of a different saint, and a poet.[1,2] (Here the slash represents an acute accent mark on the preceding letter.) The poem 'Cen a/inius' ('Without pleasure, joyless') from the viewpoint of the poet Li/adan has been dated to c. 875, though the poet herself may have lived earlier. [3] We have not found any evidence that the name <Li/adan> was used after the ninth century."

ingen - Simple Patronomic byname, Quick and Easy Gaelic Names 3rd Edition by Sharon L. Krossa. Spelling is pre 1200.

<http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/>

Diarmata - OCM, pg. 73

Middle Irish Gaelic (c900-c1200) genitive form. Index of Names in Irish Annals by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan

<http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Diarmait.shtml>

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:03:50
Docs check out.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 21:31:06
The documentation looks OK to me, though I could be mistaken: gaelic-language-family names are not my strong point.

I didn't find any conflict.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:48:09
The wavy line is severely anemic. The amplitude should be double this deep, or even more.

Later: I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:04:14
Deeper waves on the chief would be nice. No conflicts found.


17: Matty de Wynterwade -New Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Counter-ermine, a chevron gules between three fleur-de-lis Or.

Device Comments:

Vettorio Antonello at 2014-10-02 14:23:57
The gules on counter-ermine is color on color I believe.

Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad) at 2014-10-02 16:43:21
Can the chevron be fimbrated? If so that would solve that problem.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 22:37:03
No conflict found. A chevron gules fimbriated Or would look really nice.

And, where did the name get off to?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-08 13:20:52
The submitter is probably under the impression that furs are neutral. This is true for the vair group, but not for the ermine group, under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3B1

I also notice there are an awful lot of little spots here, but I leave to the deciding herald whether an Artist's Note is desirable.

Diderick van dem Mere (THL Diderick van dem Mere) at 2014-10-06 13:44:42
It would appear that according to Precedents , fimbriated can be used on simple geometric designs and could be used to clear this . I still need to check conflict .

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-06 17:53:35
Yes, you are correct, this can be fimbriated, But remember that in addition to being a simple geometric charge, it must also be in the center of the field. Hence a base of chief,cannot.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-13 16:51:36
You may not fimbriate or cotise peripheral ordinaries. The ordinary has to have two edges. Fimbriating this chevron should be Just Fine (assuming no conflicts).

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-21 01:50:08
Color on color; can be fixed with fimbriation. Spots are distinctly too small; 2x to 2.5x the size would be a real improvement.

Later: I didn't find any conflict with this device as submitted, nor with the chevron fimbriated Or, nor with it fimbriated argent.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 15:05:20
Agree that fimbriating the chevron in Or would make quite a striking device. (Didn't conflict check that alternative.) Both the client and any artists involved will be happier if larger, fewer ermine spots are used. Hope the client submits a name with this on the next round.


Yours in Service,



Lord Collyne Greymoire



Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris


OSCAR counts 11 Names, 1 Alternate Name Change and 14 Devices. There are a total of 26 items submitted on this letter.