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Trimaris ILoI dated 2014-09-27

Pennsic Submissions as received from Master Tanczos Istvan with many thanks.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:14:02
Comments under my name are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoimhin McKee, Sanglier Rouge Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Chiara da Caneva -New Name & New Device

Azure mullety argent, a demi-sun Or issuant from a mount vert.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Chiara - from "Names from 16th Century Venice" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html) Name pattern "given name" + da + "place from "Names from 16th Century Venice" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html) Caneva - a town in Italy dating at least to the 13th century. "Citata per la prima volta in un documento della meta del XIII secolo", translated: "Cited for the first time in a document from the mid 13th century..." from "Caneva" in Italiapedia (http://www.italiapedia.it/comune-di-caneva_Storia-093-009) "Caneva" is also used as a locative byname in Monumenti della Universita di Padova, 1318-1405, Volume 1" by Andrea Gloria (http://books.google.com/books?id=vFVXAAAAYAAJ) at pp. 284, 256, 477, 480, 519, 520, 527, 530-32, 559 and 564 which refers to a professore Zambono da Caneva who was active c. 1377-78. No conflict found. The closest it Catarina di Caneva, registered in October of 2011 (via Artemisia).

IAP for the mount?

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 22:16:42
I didn't find any conflict.

The St. Gabriel and Italiapedia sources check out as given, but the book does not have "Caneva" on pages 284, 256, nor 530, as far as I can see. I double checked, but I just don't find it. Zambono da Caneva is found on pages 477, 480, 519, 520, 527, 530, 531, 559 and 564

Page 532 has Paolo da Caneva, not Zambono, which shows it's not a unique name.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:14:23
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-09 06:57:41
Would this not be color on color? Vert base on a predominantly azure field.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-10 21:49:55
Mounts and trimounts routinely violate the Rule of Tincture, in that they show up as green on every color at times. If this needs an IAP, someone will need to find either a German or Italian mullety field, or 3+ azure semy of X argent fields.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-13 16:49:16
And here's you some Italian mullety examples.

1: Image 1

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 22:40:23
The demi-sun is far too small; it's actually smaller than the base. Thus, this submission blurs the distinction between a primary charge and a secondary charge. IMO, this should be returned for a redrawing, at which time the submitter can either fix the color-on-color problem, or gather documentation for an IAP (which Gunnvor Orle has done most of the work for).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:14:57
No conflicts found.


2: Mairi Johnston -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 2003, via Trimaris

Per bend azure and Or, a lizard tergiant bendwise and a crow counterchanged and for augmentation on a canton sable a sun Or eclipsed sable.

Submission type augmentation of arms. Trimaris OP has Augmentation of arms under name Mairi Ceilidh 8-31-2002. Mairi Johnston The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 2007 (via Trimaris): Per bend azure and Or, a lizard tergiant bendwise and a crow counterchanged.

The Lymphad office is in the process of getting the letter of Permission to conflict with the following device:

Kourost Bernard of the East Woods

<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Kourost%20Bernard%20of%20the%20East%20Woods>

* The following device associated with this name was registered in

December of 2000 (via the West)

<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgiy1=2000&m1=December&y2=2000&m2=December&kW=checked>:

*Sable, a sun Or eclipsed sable.*

There are several other members of Trimaris who received the same augmentation and we are working to get them all done.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:06:50
I didn't find any conflict with the device as a whole. I agree the augmentation is in conflict with Kourost Bernard of the East Woods. There is another item that might conflict with the augmentation, though I doubt it:
"Isabella de' Medici
"The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via An Tir):
"Sable, a mullet of eight interlocking mascles a bordure Or."

There is clearly a DC for removing the bordure. As a "sun eclipsed" and the "mullet of eight interlocking mascles" can be considered a multi-pointed star-thingy with some of the field showing through, there is a similarity. I suspect, though, that they are dissimilar enough for a DC. Isabella's submission should be looked at, though, by someone with access to the scanned submissions, just to make sure.

Later: Here's a precedent that applies to the issue:
"[Per bend sinister sable and azure, a mullet of nine points voided and interlaced within a bordure argent.] This device conflicts with Cynedd ap Gwen, Sable, a sun eclipsed within a bordure argent. Although the two devices may be technically clear, the voiding of Christoff's mullet and the eclipsing of Cynedd's sun, together with the shared tincture of half the field, create an overwhelming visual similarity between the two pieces of armory under RfS X.5. [Christoff of Swampkeep, 05/05, R-Trimaris]"

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:15:46
Shouldn't the eclipsing cover the entire disc of the sun rather than leaving an annulet of it visible?


3: Octavio de Flores -New Heraldic Title

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2000, via Trimaris

Faraute Flores

This is a Spanish-language heraldic title: Feraute as a period Spanish form of herald and the structure of locative-derived titles is found in Juliana de Luna's "Heraldic Titles from the Middle Ages and Renaissance" (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/HeraldicTitlesSCA/). The locative byname "de Flores" is found in Juliana de Luna's "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/

Heraldic Title Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 14:37:09
The typo is in the documentation paragraph; the linked souce shows faraute (but also interestingly heraute).

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:17:55
I would like to see documentation that he is entitled to a personal heraldic title.

I didn't find any conflict.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 05:06:44
Consider these two items close in sound to the submission.

Flory House This household name was registered to Valdisa Álarsdóttir in February of 2014 (via Atenveldt).

Florence, City of The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1995.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 16:17:33
"Flory House" has 3 syllables while "Flores" has 2, so clear for pronunciation.

The second syllable of "Florence" has a schwa (unaccented central) vowel in most English pronunciations, though I cannot rule out the same front-central vowel as in "Flores" being sometimes used, followed by -nts. "Flores" has only -s, so the consonant groups alone are sufficient to put the two clear for pronunciation.

The three are obviously clear from each other for spelling.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 17:20:18

We don't get to use designators when comparing without a permission to conflict.
So we have substantive elements Flores versus Flory.
They are close but non-identical so it is always possible for a Pelican decision they don't quite conflict or a kind soul can find permission to conflict.

SENA NPN.3.C Designators and the prepositions or articles which link them to the substantive elements do not count for difference (though they can be sufficient to allow registration with permission to conflict). Only sound and appearance of the substantive elements are considered for difference.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 18:50:58
You are correct; I apologize for the error.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-21 18:54:39
However, I still claim no conflict. EHS, with a central front vowel and a consonant, is significantly different from EE, with a high front vowel and no consonant. And -es is different from -y by the required two characters.

http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#NPN3C2

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 20:02:05
I hope you are right. It's not fun when the names get this close.

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-23 01:46:59
By SENA NPN.3.C.2, Flores and Flory are clear: the vowels in the second syllables are different, and the following consonant(s) are as well---I'm assuming a lack of consonant(s) is a difference from the presence thereof.

However, between Flores and Florence there is conflict. The vowels of the second syllables are, in at least one important pronunciation, the same, and the addition of the "N" sound is not much of a difference in the pronunciation.

I stand corrected, there is a conflict.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-23 02:33:04
These sound alikes are very twisted to try to figure out. That is why I always recommend to sent them up to Pelican for a decision. At least, that will get more rulings and guidelines on how to manage them.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-23 02:34:24
It's not that the N sound isn't much, it's that it's not enough. I was grossly misreading the confusing phrasing "the vowel and the consonant (or group of consonants) on one side of the vowel is different between the two names." If that means anything, it means a) the vowels of the syllables compared must be different and b) the consonant groups* on (at least) one side of said vowels must be different. A difference of only vowels or only consonants does not suffice.

N(T)S does not equal S, but EH = EH. Conflict.
-------------------------
* In this context, a "group" consists of 0 or more qualifying members. So for Flory vs. Flores, the consonant groups are nothing vs. S.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-23 02:43:55
I just offer them for discussion. Trying to figure them out under SENA gives me a headache.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-23 17:26:57
Hear. Hear.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-23 22:23:26
Some very strange people do heraldry for fun, some equally strange people do linguistic analysis for fun. (I know it's equally because I'm one of each.)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:16:13
Docs check out.


4: Octavio de Flores -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2000, via Trimaris

Argent, an escarbuncle vert each spoke terminating in a rose and a chief gules and for augmentation in base a triskele azure.

Submission type Augmentation. Augumentation of arms received in Trimaris 03-14-2008 verified in Trimaris OP. The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 2005 (via Trimaris): Argent, an escarbuncle vert each spoke terminating in a rose and a chief gules.

We have received the letter of Permission to conflict for the augmentation from the Kingdom of Trimaris.

Device Comments:

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-10-09 06:55:55
Tofit in the space available,this augmentation has to be very small,

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:21:42
The triskele is far too small; at any distance it becomes (at best) a blue blot. SENA A.2.C.3 says:
"3. Appropriate Size: Elements must be drawn at an appropriate size for their role in an armorial submission and must be generally large enough to be identified as charges."

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-10-21 04:58:52
This is classed as a New Augmentation of Arms not a new device. Trimaris, Kingdom of The following badge associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via Trimaris): (Fieldless) A triskele azure.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:16:44
The triskele is almost unnoticeable at that size. Caoimhin wonders if there might be a way to put it on the chief where it could be drawn larger.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-23 02:45:01
I know that we make exceptions on what would otherwise be excessive complexity caused by adding augmentations. I don't think identifiability is similarly set aside. However, at the distance required to make the very distinctive shape of this triskele unidentifiable, so will the similarly sized roses be.

However, the blazon needs to be corrected to be the same for the element here as in one or another of the Kingdom's registrations: a triskele/triskelion arrondi/arrondy. Going by the submitted blazon for the first word and the heavy majority of recent registrations for the second gives: Argent, an escarbuncle vert each spoke terminating in a rose and a chief gules and for augmentation in base a triskele arrondi azure.


5: Þorstein eldr skald -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity.
Sound (Please fix any grammar,) most important.

Þorsteinn is a male given name found in Geirr Bassi at p. 16 Old Norse transliterations using "Th" in place of a thorn are registerable. [December 2010 CL] eldr is a descriptive byname glossed as "fire" found in Geirr Bassi p. 21 Skáld- is a prepended descriptive byname meaning "skald, poet" found in Geirr Bassi p. 27. Sound is #1, Language is #2 in importance.

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-07 14:45:22
"Prepended" means, as suggested by that hyphen, that it comes before the name.

So on its face, the documentation supports Skald-Þorstein eldr, not the submission. But perhaps Norse onomasts know better than I?

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:34:57
Perhaps there is another source for skáld. Consider the registrations of:
Gunnarr skáld Þorvaldsson. [06/02, A-Ealdormere]
Erlan skáld í Norðrlandi [12/04, A-East]

I'm not going to copy the comments here, as (A) they're rather long and (B) I'm not sure how they apply and (C) they don't include the original documentation that supported skáld as a non-prepended name. But maybe someone else can explain all this Norse name stuff. ;-)

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:26:31
I didn't find any conflict, whether spelled as submitted or as suggested by Michael.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2014-10-16 18:15:36
How about in the middle, as suggested by your other-source examples?

--Gerard

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-19 22:49:36
That, too, has no conflicts I can find.

Song Zidie at 2014-10-18 10:14:04
According to SENA App. A, double bynames in Old Norse that do not need additional documentation follows the pattern:

"Descriptive byname + patronymic or two-generation patronymic"

I don't believe two descriptive bynames is covered by this?

Also, what part of the sound is important?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-10-18 13:08:38
The actual rule is there can be two different bynames, so long as they could plausibly have described the person at the same time. Here we have a byname, <eldr>, and an occupational name <skald>.


6: Varvara Kudelkina doch' Laska -New Name

Varvara - Wickenden 3rd, sn Varvara (f) Russianization of "Barbara". "Varvara, wife of prince Albrekht 1438" Kudelkina doch' Laska. Daughter of Kudelka Lasko. Kudelka is found in Wickenden 3rd, sn Kudela (m), dimunitive "Kudel'ka, pleaseant, early 16C" Lasko is found in Wickenden 3rd, sn Lasko (m) - "Lasko Chawrylewicz 1560. Kudelka in patronymic form becomes Kudelkin as per Wickenden 3rd grammar section, type 1 patronymic. Lasko becomes Laska as an unmarked genitive patronymic (Wickenden 3rd type 3 patronymic". "Doch' " is the particle meaning "daughter" and is placed between the two elements. Most important to submitter is that the name "Laska" be retained in that spelling. If it can be documented as a given name, she would prefer it before Varvara as the first of a double given name.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-09-28 23:01:12
The source for <Varvara> is the Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles vol. 22, (http://www.nehudlit.ru/books/detail707728.html)
If the name of her husband <Albrekht> didn't give away that we weren't dealing with Russians, that he's described in the text as "з дому Ракусского" or "of the house of Rakusskii" (nom. "ракусский") should -- it's the Slavicised adjectival placename <Raabs> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raabs_an_der_Thaya), apparently.

John Dingley 2006. "On the Origin of Czech "Rakousko", Slovak "Rakúsko"" Harvard Ukrainian Studies Vol. 28, No. 1/4, pp. 95-104 says p. 98:
"...it comes as no surprise that with the passage of time, for the Slavs of the area, the name Rakousko became the designation of not just the fortress and the town but of the entire hinterland as well, and then, gradually, the name spread further and further afield, becoming first the name for what is today the Austrian province of Niederösterreich and finally the Czech and Slovak name for the whole of Austria..."
p. 97 notes that it is also a form that shows up in historic Polish dictionaries, which makes sense as volume 22 is focused on "western Russian" sources.



A much more likely form is <Barbara>, which shows up in the area as:
16th and early 17th C. feminine names from Lithuanian records. by ffride wlffsdotter (http://s-gabriel.org/names/ffride/lithuanianwomenasmenv.html):
Barbara (Барбара)
Bar"bara (Баръбара)
Early 17th century names from Zhytomyr, Ukraine by ffride wlffsdotter (http://s-gabriel.org/names/ffride/zhytomyrfem.html) has:
Barbara Vo(y)novskoho (Барбара Во(и)новского) 1648
and Wickenden sn. Barbara (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/ba.html) mentions:
Lady Barbara Radivilovna. 1545
(In English, she's Barbara Radziwiłł, Queen of Poland and Grand Duchess of Lithuania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Radziwi%C5%82%C5%82)

If the submitter is interested in early Ruthenian names, I would recommend the use of <doch"ka> or <dochka> instead of <doch'>. (See: http://s-gabriel.org/names/ffride/lithuanianwomenrelu.html)

Do we have any examples of feminine names where the patronymic was unmarked? I can find examples of masculine names, just not feminine ones.
<Kudelka> as a patronymic would be expected to be <Kudelkina>, and <Lasko> would be <Laskova>, making the name <Barbara Kudelkina doch' Laskova>.

1: Image 1

Basil Dragonstrike at 2014-10-15 23:54:17
I didn't find any conflict. This applies whether the first name uses "v" or "b".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-10-21 14:18:50
Didn't find any info on "Laska" as either a given name or a surname. Name structure looks OK.


Yours in Service,



Lord Collyne Greymoire



Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris


OSCAR counts 3 Names, 1 Heraldic Title and 3 Devices. There are a total of 7 items submitted on this letter.