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Trimaris ILoI dated 2014-07-16

Greetings from the Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris,

Welcome esteemed commenters to the July 16th KLoI of Trimaris.

Please accept the following submissions or your consideration.



Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:33:12

Comments under my name on this letter are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lady Brigida von München, Saker Herald, Lord Caoimhin McKee, Sanglier Rouge Herald Extraordinary, and myself.

1: Aoibheann Baenn Ui Raghailligh -Resub Name & New Device

Vert, two bendlets between two bowen crosses on a chief argent a vine of ivy vert.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (Wife of the son of Riley) most important.

Aoibheann: Donnchadh O/ Corra/in & Fidelma Maguire, Irish Names (Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990)

Baenn Ui Raghailligh: Woulfe, Patrick, _Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall: Irish Names and Surnames (Kansas City: Irish Genealogical Foundation).

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=18857

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/03/12-03lar.pdf

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 10:55:08

It's not enough to just list your documentation sources, you ALSO have to summarize what each source says about the name(s). In regards to <Aoibheann>, the LOAR cited explicitly says it is not registrable:

"In resubmission, the submitter should know that Aoibheann is a late period spelling of a name which had fallen out of use by that time. We require that a name be registered in the form suitable for the time in which it was used, except in the case of very early names whose forms we do not know. The Middle Gaelic form of the name, suitable for the period when the name was in use, is Aíbinn or Oébfinn. Without further documentation, the submitted spelling is not registerable." [Aoibheann Bean Ardan, LOAR 03/2012]

From the commentary on the Trimaris 12/31/2011 LOI, the byname should be <bean ui Raghailligh>, therefore, it appears that she could be <Aíbinn bean ui Raghailligh>, but with the "no major changes" I think we have to get her permission to change it.

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 14:28:03
The client has rescinded "No Major Changes" and asks to do whatever is necessary to keep "Aoibheann" as submitted.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 15:56:41
I think it's extremely unlikely that she will be able to document <Aoibheann>. That's what the word was the last time she submitted, and they gave her suggestions of other forms of the same name. Since that was the result of the work of some of our heralds most knowledgeable in Irish names, I really think the submitter needs to choose something else.

If there is documentation showing that the spelling <Aoibheann> was actually in use pre-1650 (and NOT just mentioned in a later document talking about somebody a few centuries earlier), then that documentation needs to be summarized and submitted.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:18:38
I am not aware of any documentation supporting Aoibheann within period.

Rurik Ulfhammer at 2014-07-20 09:20:01
http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1103.txt

This St Gabriel letter says that is a fairly common Scottish Gaelic name, and provides the same documentation. The Aoibheann spelling appears in many letters on the archive.

Edit: In all the letters I have seen it is listed as a possible spelling, and a common name from 12 century and later.

Rurik Ulfhammer at 2014-07-20 09:28:12
Sorry to double post, but here is the citation for the name in full. The spelling on here is Aibin, but also showing Aoibhenn.

edit: forgot to put the link. http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aibinn.shtml

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 07:49:23
All of the St. Gabriel letters discussing this spelling pre-date the 2012 precedent stating that <Aoibheann> is unregisterable. In 1998, when Report #1103 was issued, we knew far less about Gaelic names than we do now, and some of the advice given is no longer good based on that new information.

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-20 16:01:29
Submitter is willing to accept Aoibhenn, Aoibhinn, or Obefinn. Will not accept Aibinn due to the possibility of seeming presumptuous of having the same name of a peer in kingdom.

Perusal of previous Aoibheann submissions for documentation: OC&M provides Aoibhinn as the nearest nominative case spelling. Irish Names, D.ÓCorráin & F.Maguire, The Lilliput Press, Dublin, 1992, 2nd, 0-946640-66-1, p 15

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 08:01:36
<Aoibhenn> is a spelling found in the raw data in Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's "Index of Names in Irish Annals" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aibinn.shtml) s.n. Aíbinn dated to 1066. This seems to me like the best option, as it is the closest to her originally submitted spelling.

If she wants to be the "wife of Riley", then her formation is off. She needs to delete the <Ui> to obtain that meaning.

Also, an entirely Middle Irish formation, consistent with the time period for the given name would be <ben Rogailligh>

<Rogailligh> is one of the standard Middle Irish genitive forms of the given name <Rogellach>, which becomes the Anglicized <Riley>. It is found in Mari's "Index" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Rogellach.shtml) with a relevant Annals date of 1014.

<ben> is the Middle Irish word for "wife" found in Mari's "Index" s.n. Eithne in the example "Eithne ben Congalaigh meic Maoilmithidh" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Eithne.shtml). This example shows the pattern [female name] + ben + [husband's name in genitive].

Since she is open to changes, I recommend <Aoibhenn ben Rogailligh> as an entirely 11th cen. Gaelic name.

She *can* leave the byname in the Early Modern spellings, but I note that the Early Modern Gaelic term for "wife" is spelled <bean>, as shown in the example: Mairghreg inghen Uátéir A Búrc bean Aedha mic Feidlimidh Uí Concobair ri Connacht from Mari's "Index" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Mairghread.shtml). Again, note that to be Riley's wife, the form is bean + [husband's name in the genitive form].

<Raghallaigh> is the correct Early Modern genitive form, per Mari's "Index" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Rogellach.shtml).

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-21 17:37:07
Submitter is ok with the change to Aoibhenn ben Roghailligh.

Sadb ingen Thuathail at 2014-07-24 23:01:17
We should be aware that there is a note that relates to this entry, "NOTE: The Annals referenced below under the code letters A, B, C, E, & F tend to use later spellings than the other Annals. In some cases, the spellings listed in these Annals may not be appropriate for the year referenced in the Annal entry."

The entry for <Aoibhenn> is labeled "B", so we are actually unsure as the actual date this is referenced.

The rest of the name as documented by Blue Tygar looks good.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:34:36
The given name is not in my copy of O'C&M at all as far as I can see. The second reference points to a previous submission that ended up as "Aoibheann Bean Ardan". The third reference points to the 3/12 LoAR, which contains nothing pertinent that I can find. Don't have Woulfe so can't verify that reference.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-08-01 02:16:44
Did you look under the spelling <Aibenn>, Gawain?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-08-02 06:40:19
That's a good example of why I shouldn't even touch Irish names. The closest O'CM entry is for "AÍbinn, Oébfinn: Aébfhinn, Aoibhinn:". Don't see any reference to "Aoibheann", nor do I find an entry for "Aibenn".

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-08-03 00:56:02
<Aibenn> was a guess on my part, not having OCM to hand. <Aibinn> was the entry I was thinking of; when a name has both MIr and EMIr forms, OCM use the former as the header. Since <Aoibheann> is an EMIr form, I figured it would be likely to appear in an entry under the MIr form.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:36:13
I find no conflicts. Blazon-fu: Vert, a bend gemel between two Bowen crosses and on a chief argent two branches of ivy intertwined vert.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:35:28
"Bowen" is a proper name. The blazon would not ensure that this rather unusual arrangement of the vine would be reproduced. The dexter ends of the bendlets end neither at the upper corner of the field nor at the intersection of the field and the chief. They need to be redrawn. No conflicts found.


2: Artemisia Di Pennelli -New Name & New Device

Quarterly sable and argent, in saltire a quill inverted argent and a artist's brush inverted sable.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Artemisia: Artemisia is listed in "Feminine Given Names from the Italian Renaissance by Anebairn MacPharlane of Arrochar (Caidan Heraldic Symposium, AS XXIV), citing the Encyclopedia Britannica's entry on the Early Baroque painter Artemisia Gentileschi (July 8, 1593 - c. 1656).

Pennelli: first found in 1189 when Alessio Penna was created by Pope Clemente III

http://www.houseofnames.com/Pennelli-family-crest

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:05:07
I find no conflicts.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 03:34:02
The form <di Pennelli> is appropriate only if <Pennelli> is her father's name or, much more rarely, a place name. See Appendix A of SENA on Italian naming patterns.

<Pennelli> is an Italian *word* meaning "brushes" but it is not clear whether this word was ever used as a name element.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 08:07:50
If we cannot find documentation for <Pennelli>, would she consider <del Penna>, which is found as a byname in "Names in 15th Century Florence and her Dominions: the Condado" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/familyalpha.html)?

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2014-08-11 08:16:45
Arbor siue Genealogia familiae Scortiae, nec non perantiqua eiusdem familiae... ; a geneaology of the Scorza family, by Alessandro Scorza, Pietro Vincenti, Bernardo Ferrari, 1611, in Latin. Book pages 31, 52, 72 show the name Penelli [one N]. Page 72, index, lists the name as a `Comites Lauaniae' [Lavaniae= Lavagna?].
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrGLQMRkxJYC&pg=PA31&dq=Penelli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kqboU66ZIurE8gGim4GYB g&ved=0CCIQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Penelli&f=false

The same book, 1611, thankfully in Italian, lists Alberto Penello, ca. 12th C., book p. 28 , `Il secondo, Alberto padre di Gerardo, da cui fú generato Armano, che procreò Alberto Penello, Ormano, Thedisio...'= The second, Gerardo Alberto's father, from whom later bore Armano, who fathered Alberto Penello, Ormano, Thedisio…
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrGLQMRkxJYC&pg=PA115&dq=%22Alberto+Penello%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w7XoU7 iZKuiH8QHij4HgDQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Alberto%20Penello%22&f=false

Also, Delle Cose Della Repvblica Di Genova... By Uberto Foglietta, 1575, pdf page 49, `li quale escono da stirpe Nobile, come sono Passani, Castiglioni, Penelli...' = the noble lineage from which they come, such as Passani, Castiglioni, Penelli…
http://books.google.com/books?id=0_g5AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=Penelli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jK3oU6b4LJCL8gGQ6YCoD g&ved=0CDEQ6wEwAzge#v=onepage&q=Penelli&f=false

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:36:28
The preposition should be lower case: "di". Looks registerable.

Device Comments:

Vettorio Antonello at 2014-07-16 09:50:32
Blazon-Fu: Quarterly sable and argent, in saltire a feather inverted argent and a artist's brush inverted sable, a brodure Gules.

I'd be tempted to say the feather and brush are counterchanged but they coloration doesn't exactly follow the field division lines, especially for the feather (Note: As depicted it's a feather, not a quill pen.)

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-07-20 09:38:56
No conflicts found

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:00:41
I fear this design may run afoul of SENA A3B4b, with an identifiability problem with proper contrast between the feather and the field. The rule says:

b. Identifiability: Charges and fields must retain identifiability. A field that is neutral may have good contrast with a charge that shares a tincture with it, but it may only be registered if both the charge and the field remain identifiable. Thus, the field and charges on it may share a tincture only if (1) the charges appear only on a section of the field with a different tincture or (2) only one of the two is multiply divided and the charge(s) is an ordinary or simple geometric shape arranged in a way that both the type of field division and charge are clearly identifiable.


(1) doesn't apply, and neither does (2), quite, as while the field is multiply divided, the feather is not an ordinary or a simple geometric shape.

Making the feather or the field Or (yellow) instead of argent (white) would solve the contrast problem. No conflicts found with either proposed variant.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:37:17
A quill is a feather with all the vanes stripped off for use as a spool for thread or yarn. A (quill) pen is a feather with the vanes stripped off most of the way up from the point to provide a comfortable grip, and with the point sharpened. What we see here is just a feather. All three are registerable. No conflicts found. We're concerned about the portion of the argent feather overlying the argent quarters of the field.


3: Beatrice Whitcombe -New Name & New Device

Or, three bees in pall heads to center sable marked Or and a bordure sable.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Beatrice: "International Genealogical Index (IGI)," database, FamilySearch (http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MM4R-D8J : accessed 2014-05-20), entry for Beatrice Adam 1571

Whitcombe: "International Genealogical Index (IGI)," database, FamilySearch (http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9Z3T-CG3 : accessed 2014-05-20), entry for Margarita Whitcombe 1571

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 06:59:59
The familysearch.org records cited above are not acceptable to use as documentation, as they are from the user-submitted part of the database. However, all is not lost:

<Beatrice Mitchell> female, married 1546, Lincoln, England. Batch no. M03424-3 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJKX-FX9)
<Beatrice Sewell> female, married 1562, Lincoln, England. Batch no. M03099-2 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NV5C-Z2C)
<Beatrice Bradshawe> female, married 1572, Lincoln, England. Batch no. M01133-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5VC-QZY)

<Walterum Whitcombe> married 1561, Hereford, England. Batch no. M15543-2 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFV3-ZQN)
<Thomas Whitcombe> married 1583, Hereford, England. Batch no. M13794-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKNQ-2QY)
<Joane Whitcombe> married 1581, Devon, England. Batch no. M05234-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2G9-K4P)

It is a lovely English name.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:06:47
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:37:49
Looks OK.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:11:20
I find no conflicts. The closest is: Or, three bees and a bordure embattled sable. [Amy of Calafia, LOAR 01/2000]. Clear by SENA A5E5 (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5E5): for change in orientation of the primary charge group.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-07-20 09:43:03
Same result as Orle. No conflicts found.

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:03:19
Not clear under A5E5, as that requires change of posture/orientation of the *entire* group. Here, only 2/3rds have changed from the default palewise two-and-one bees.

Fortunately, still clear with a DC for change of posture/orientation of at least half the group, and a DC for changing from an embattled bordure to a plain bordure.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:38:38
We found nothing closer than Amy of Calafia.


4: Brienne Malcolm -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound (Bree Enn or Bree Ann) most important.

Brienne: <Brienne-le-Chastel> is dated to 1603 in Dictionnaire topographique du department de I'Aube: comprenant les noms de lieu anciens et modernes, by Ernest de Bouteiller

Malcolm: Malcolm is a masculine given name, with the submitted spelling dated to 1204-11: "Mael Columb 'devotee' or 'shaveling of Columba' the particular saint meant being S. Columba of Iona. The later G. is Maol Chaluim. Four kings bore this name "George F. Black's "Surnames of Scotland" pg. 576, 2004 Edition

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 07:09:20
We can make this a Scottish/English name (and sidestep the issue of <Brienne> being documented as a place-name) with:
<Sara Brienne> christened 1640, London. Batch no. C04903-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5LK-K4L)
<Jean Brienne> christened 1648, London. Batch no. C04903-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5L2-W2T)
and
<Andro Malcolm> married 1564, Perth, Scotland. Batch no. M11387-4 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY3V-4PT)
<Katrin Malcolm> christened 1600, Midlothian, Scotland. Batch no. C19503-1 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRB-NQH)

The September 2012 cover letter says:
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/09/12-09cl.html
In general, family names documented in sixteenth century England may be used to create given names, even if they are of Scottish or Gaelic origin.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:12:51
I find no conflicts. The pronunciation will almost certainly voice that terminal -e as a schwa, BREE-EN-AH.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-19 22:55:46
Just in case they're needed, here are two female Bryan/Brian's:
<Bryan Jefferey> christened 1560, England. Batch no. C02160-2 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JWQ5-26V)
<Brian Bandsell> christened 1562, England. Batch no. C10943-3 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JSB7-S9H)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:40:41
If "Brienne" can be properly documented this should fly, as French/Scots names are registerable. SENA also supports unmarked Scots patronymics.


5: Brun Oloff -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Spelling (Brun Oloff) most important.

Brun: "Brun von Wintecke" 1291, pg. 6 - Socin, Mittlehochdeutsches Nomenbuch

Oloff: Oloff, pg. 3556 - Hans Bahlow, German Names

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 07:35:04
Typo: Socin is Mittlehochdeutsches Namenbuch.

I only have Bahlow's Deutsches Namenlexikon, do we know what the entry on Oloff says? The closest I can find is Olaf, which discusses the Norwegian saint.

Just in case, there is gender-neutral(!) <Oloff brun> documentable through the Diplomatarium Norvegicum:
<Thorleif brvn> 1418 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=2937&s=n&str=brvn)
<Gudbrander brun> 1419 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1781&s=n&str=Gudbrander%20brun)
<Gerik Brwn borgemestere> 1484 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=12035&s=n&str=brwn)

<Oloff Olafsdotter> 1437 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=6942&s=n&str=Oloff)
<Olof Arnæ døtter> and <Oloff> 1471 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=2012&s=n&str=Oloff)
<Oloff Hæneskes dotter> 1474 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=9953&s=n&str=Oloff)

<Oloff Karlszon j Hoff> 1435 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=11929&s=n&str=Oloff)
<Oloff Linnarson j Staffrvm> 1448 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=11954&s=n&str=Oloff)
<Oloff Berwlffson> 1486 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=7032&s=n&str=Oloff)

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:14:49
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:42:23
The summaries of the references are missing. Socin's entry for :"Bruno" cites "Brun von Windecke". "Oloff" is in the entry for "O(h)loff, Ohleff, O(h)lf". It's marked as Low German-Frisian, but no dated citations are given. It's on p.391 of the Gentry translation.


6: Cesare of the Ruins -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for Italian.

Cesare Webster's Biograhical Dictionary, (Copywrite 1963) pg. 172

Borgia, Cesare. Eng. Cesare, 1475 or 1476 - 1507, created archpapale legale (199) to Naples to Crown Frederick of Aragorn,

King; relinquished Cardinal's Office (1498)...

of the Ruins Local group name, Registered to Trimaris (via Meridies 1983)

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 07:38:36
Technically, the group is registered as "Shire of the Ruins" (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Ruins%2C%20Shire%20of%20the).

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:15:29
I find no conflicts.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-19 23:12:17
From the cover of Cesare Campana's Delle historie del mondo (1597)
Image 1: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=XAlPAAAAcAAJ

and Cesare Campana's Compendio historico delle Guerre (1597)
Image 2: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=p008AAAAcAAJ

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 08:09:44
We don't need to get exotic for the documentation. <Cesare> is found as a male given name in "Names in 15th Century Florence and her Dominions: the Condado" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/mensalpha.html).

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 09:16:26
Could Cesare be equivalent to a title (Caesar)?

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 16:19:35
Possibly. The easiest cure is for him to add a clearly non-locative byname, such as those found here: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/familyalpha.html. For example, <Cesare Boni of the Ruins> would avoid the presumption issue.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:43:13
Well, at least the given name is authentically Italian. It's certainly registerable.


7: Cheongju Han Jeong Mi -New Name Change

OSCAR NOTE: 'Old Item' should contain the former primary name. The form that is there is not a registered name.

Old Item: Bres O'Seachnasaigh, to be released.
Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Language (Korean) most important.
Culture (Korean) most important.

Cheongju Han, [한 (韓)] JeongMi [정미 (正美 )] Would accept JeongMi of the Cheongju Han Clan

The name is for a female

In the past the SCA did not allow for registration of Korean names due to a lack of significant or substantial contact with pre-17th century Europe. However, the SCA has since changed this policy and now allows elements and patterns for personal names from beyond Europe which are from cultures that were known to medieval and Renaissance Europeans or whose members might reasonably have traveled to Europe. Korea or Couray was known to the Portuguese since 1543, however the Koreans knew of Portugal in 1520.

See the following for evidence that Korea was known to Europeans before 1650.

1. Kim Hyeong-guk 2007. "How Historical Figures Can Influence People's Perceptions" _Korea Foundation Newsletter_ (16)6 http://newsletter.kf.or.kr/english/contents.asp?vol=80&no=906&lang=English&key=corea

"The first known encounter between Korea and Spain occurred when Catholic Priest Gregorio de Cespedes, from Madrid, followed Konishi Yukinaga, a Japanese general, to Korea during the Imjin War, or the Japanese Invasions of Korea, which broke out in 1592. …

Francesco Carletti, an Italian priest who visited Japan in 1597, rescued five Korean boys from the slave trade in Nagasaki, and sent them to Goa, India. He then took one of them with him to Florence, where he was educated, given the name Antonio corea, and eventually settled in Rome. This boy was thought to be the first Korean who landed on the soil of Europe."

2. Park, Song-Rae 2004. `Portugal and Korea: Obscure Connections in the Pre-modern Sciences before 1900' in: Luís Saraiva [ed] _History of Mathematical Sciences: Portugal and East Asia II_ (World Scientific) GoogleBooks preview: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6IN3LdqmmfwC&pg=PA165&dq=Portugal+and+Korea:+Obscure+Connections +in+the+Pre-modern+Sciences+before+1900&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_xqnUbqBIPCtiQeyn4G4Ag&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onep age&q=Portugal%20and%20Korea%3A%20Obscure%20Connections%20in%20the%20Pre-modern%20Sciences%20before %201900&f=false

Portugal was known as "Bullanggi: in Korea, when the Koreans had known, for the first time, anything about the country in 1520. Bullanggi is the Korean rendition of the Chinese word for Portugal: Fo-lang-chi. This term can be found in the History of Ming.

3. From The Journal of Henry Hamel:

The first Europeans who knew about the existence of Korea were the Portuguese. Since 1543 they had a trade post on the island of Hirado, where they without doubt got to know that in northwestern direction passed the island of Tsushima, there was a nation that they called Couray. During his investigations in Portugal and on the Portuguese merchant fleet, Jan Huyghen van Linschoten got to know this from Dirck Gerritszoon Pomp, nicknamed "Dirck China." Pomp, a Hollander, also in the service of the Portuguese, went to sea in 1584 aboard the Portuguese vessel "Santa Cruz". The ship was richly laden with merchandise and had sailed by way of the trade-settlement in Goa, India, to Macao in China and from there to Japan. He arrived in Nagasaki in 1585, perhaps the first Hollander to set foot on Japanese soil. Dirck gave oral information to Jan van Linschoten. In his Reisgheschrift (travel notes), which were published in 1595, he writes the following:

...soo streckt de Custe [van Japan] weder nae het noorden toe, wijckende daer nae inwaerts, noordwestwaerts aen, aen welcke Custe comen die van Japon traffijcken met het Volck van de contreije diemen noemt Cooraij, waer van ick goede, breede en waerachtige informatie hebbe, als oock van de van de Navigatie naer dit Landt toe, van de Piloten die 'taldaer' ondersocht ende bevaren hebben.

..so stretches the coast [from Japan] again to the north, recedes after that inward, northwest ward, to which Coast those from Japan trade with the Nation which is called Cooray, from which I have good, comprehensive and true information, as well as from the navigation to this Country, from the pilots who investigated the situation there and sailed there.

In the Itinerario, which was published one year later:

Een weinig boven Iapon, op 34 ende 35 graden, niet verre van de Custe van China, legt een ander groot Eijlandt, ghenaemt Insula de Core, van welcke tot noch toe gheen seker bescheidt en is van grootte, 'tVolck, noch wat waren daer vallen

A little above Japan, on 34 and 35 degrees, not far from the coast of China, is another big island, called Insula de Core, from which until now, there is no certainty concerning size, people, nor what trade there is.

It was also known to the Portuguese and, through them, to the Dutch, that the Japanese were trading with Korea. And that the Lord, or Daimyo, of Tshusima had the monopoly of this trade.

http://hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/holland4.htm

4. From: Gompertz, G. St. G. M. 1957. "Some Notes on the Earliest Western Contacts with Korea" _Transactions of the Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society_ (33); 41-54.

Letters of a Spanish priest who was in Korea in 1571 well before Father Cespedes.

Father Gregory de Cespedes came to Korea as chaplain of the Japanese Christian soldiers under the Christian General Konishi in 1592. On Feb. 4th., 1571, Padre Gaspar Vilela wrote (l.c. f.305) that he was four years ago in Corai (Korea).

5. Savenije, Henny, "Korea through western cartographic eyes," Korean Culture, Vol. 21 No. 1 Spring 2000 pp. 4-19. (Los Angeles: Korean Cultural Center, 2000) reprinted online at <http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr/> states that Gregorio de Céspedes (1550-1611), a Jesuit, visited Korea from Dec. 27, 1593 until April 1594 on the invitation of one of the three leading generals of the Japanese invasion army and is generally believed to be the first westerner to visit Korea, despite evidence of a brief earlier visit by an unnamed western in 1582.

According to Savenije, a letter of one Father Luis Frois (1532-1597) tells of 300,000 Korean prisoners of war being brought to Nagasaki, Japan as part of a slave trade.

Savenije quotes Francesco Carletti's Discourses, in which Carletti describes his purchase in 1597 of five Korean slaves, and further states that one of Carletti's Korean pupils accompanied him back to Europe, visiting Holland and eventually residing in Italy. This Korean student was known by the European name of Antonio Correa (1578?-1626) and was sent to Manchuria by the Vatican in the 1610s as a missionary.

Evidence of Korea on European maps

6. "Western Maps and Korea" at <http://www.korea.net/news/issues/html/eastsea_world_2.html> (WWW: The Republic of Korea, 2007) states in part:

The map created in 1594 by Petro Plancio of the Netherlands is known to be the oldest existing map in Europe that made reference to Korea with the marking "Corea." (There are two earlier maps, drawn by Bartholomeu Velho in 1562 and by Abraham Ortelius in the 1580s that show the Korean Peninsula but they gave no specific name to the peninsula.) In 1646, Sir Robert Dudley's hydrographic chart Dell'Arcano del Mare, (The Mysteries of the Sea), referred to Regno di Corai (the Kingdom of Korea).

Understanding Korean Names

Korea used Chinese characters to write the Korean language, however, the pronunciations and grammar were different than Chinese. These Chinese-like characters are used by Koreans in this way, they refer to the characters as "HanJa." [http://koreangenealogy.org/book/names/] In 1443 during the Joseon Dynasty Hangul, or Chosongul (officially transcribed Han-geul in South Korea and Chosŏn'gŭl in North Korea), was created. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul] and [http://koreangenealogy.org/book/names/]

Korean Names:

Korean names are usually three syllables that can be written in Hangul or Hanja characters. The family name comes first and is normally one Hangul syllable or Hanja character. The given name is listed last and is generally two Hangul syllables and Hanja characters with distinct meanings. There are no middle names. [http://koreangenealogy.org/book/names/] and [Ask The Korean]

The family name can be traced back to the first male ancestor with that name. It is further subdivided into bon-gwan, (clans), extended families which originate in the lineage system used in previous historical periods. The bon-gwan is identified by a specific place, and also traces its origin to a common male ancestor. Each clan publishes a comprehensive genealogy (jokbo) every 30 years. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon-gwan] and [http://koreangenealogy.org/book/names/]

Translations of Korean names:

Both the revised Romanization and the McCune-Reischauer are used and presented.

Family Name

Cheongju Han 한 (韓)한 (Hangul) 韓 (Hanja)

Revised Romanization - Cheongju-si

McCune-Reischauer - Ch'ŏngju-si

Cheongju Han (韓) clan name dates back to the Silla Dynasty 57BC to 935 AD. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_%28Korean_name%29]

Seongjong of Joseon (20 August 1457 - 20 January 1494) was the ninth king of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea - Mother: Queen Sohye, adoptive Mother: Queen Ansun and Consort Queen Gonghye were of the Cheongju Han clan [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seongjong_of_Joseon]

Given Name

JeongMi -정미 (Hangul) 正美 (Hanja) 정미 meaning: pure beauty

Romanization spelling JeongMi or McCune-Reischauer spelling ChŏngMi

Jeong is unsex and Mi is feminine [http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/08/its-not-just-that-they-all-look-same.html] Each Hangul

While documenting elements of a given name is currently difficult because female names were not recorded in jokbos several of King Taejong (May 18, 1367 - May 10, 1422) daughters had Jeong as an element in their given names.

Princess Jeongsun (정순공주, 1385-1460), 1st daughter

Princess Jeongseon (정선공주, 1404-January 25, 1424), 4th daughter

Princess Jeongshin (정신옹주, dates unknown), 1st daughter

Princess Jeongjeong (정정옹주, dates unknown), 2nd daughter

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 08:02:59
Part of the issue is that there hasn't been an attempt at registering an SCA name (until now) after the introduction of SENA. The last submission I can find, is from 2007 sn. Yang Su Gyong, which says in part:
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2007/08/07-08lar.html
This shows evidence of one European in Korea in the last decade of the 16th C, one slave trader who purchased five slaves, and some interaction between the one European in Korea and native Koreans. There is no evidence of Koreans in Europe prior to 1600, no evidence of regular trade, religious missions (larger than one individual), settlements, invasion, or other types of contact that we examine to determine whether cultures might have influenced each other.

So, in the past, the evidence of Gregorio de Cespedes travelling to Korea was considered insufficient, as was Francesco Carletti and his purchase of slaves.

But as the summary says, SENA GP.3.B. doesn't hinge on "influence" but just be one of the "cultures that were known" to Europeans.

Need to sleep, will post more later.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 20:12:30
I suspect the best way to argue for a culture being "known" in Europe, in this case, is to look at literature that was published before 1600 in Europe.

Cheong Sung-hwa and Lee Kihan "A Study of 16th-century Western Books on Korea: The Birth of an Image" Korea Journal (40:3) 2000:255-283 says:
https://www.ekoreajournal.net/issue/view_pop.htm?Idx=3115
"Through the Padroado, Portugal was able to monopolize the Catholic mission in the Far East in the late sixteenth century.... Luis Frois was the first Jesuit missionary to mention Korea, having written in 1562 that Korea played an intermediary role in the transmission of Buddhism from China to Japan..."

p. 269 however, notes that this isn't much use here, as "...Frois's book, written between 1549 and 1578, does make some passing references to Korea; however, it was not until 1926 that it was finally translated into German and published...."

pp. 262-4:
"Significant among these was Vilela's November 3 report from Goa to Francisco de Borja, General of the Society of Jesus,in which the following observations on Korea were included:
According to my information, this kingdom is said to extend as far as some very high mountains, and beyond them live people of white race, with whom however they have no dealings on account of the many dangerous wild animals that live in the mountains.....
....This 3 November 1571 letter provided the most comprehensive reference to Korea to date, and its subsequent inclusion in the Jesuit
Cartas, published in Evora [in Portugal] in 1598, made a substantial contribution to the introduction of Korea in Europe."

The Jesuit Letter Books, however, were published in Europe before 1600 and included information about Korea:
p. 271 says:
"Annual Letters of Japan, which had made a substantial contribution to the introduction of Korea to Europe, was first published in 1593. The first of these to make a reference to Korea was written by Frois in 1590, and it was translated into Italian and French and published in Rome, Milano, and Paris. The 1591 and 1592 annual letters in which Korea is featured in earnest were originally written by Frois in Spanish, but it was translated into Italian, French, and Latin and published in Rome, Milano, Venice, Douai, among others in 1595 and 1596. Furthermore, a letter written by Father Orantino Bresciano in 1594 and sent to Aquaviva, then General of the Society of Jesus, includes materials on the 1592 War between Japan and Korea, and the Italian and French versions were published in Milano and Antwerp respectively in 1597. Most of the materials related to Korea between 1590 and 1594 were written by Frois and translated into most of the major languages in Europe."

An English translation of those letters appear in Hakluyt's The Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques and Discoveries of the English Nation volume 3, published 1600:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=rbdk&fileName=d0302//rbdkd0302.db&recNum=873&itemLink=r% 3Fintldl%2Frbdkbib%3A@field%28NUMBER%2B@od1%28rbdk%2Bd0302%29%29&linkText=0
There is a transcription at the bottom of this page, it is a lot to read: http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/RichardHakluyt.html
In part: Concerning the mighty kingdom of Coray, tributary to the king of China, and borthering upon his Northeast frontiers, called by the Portugales Coria, and by them esteemed at the first an iland, but since found to adjoyne with the maine not many dayes journey from Paqui the metropolitan citie of China. The more perfect discovery whereof and of the coast of Tartaria Northward, may in time bring great light (if not full certaintie) either of a Northwest or a Northeast passage from Europe to those rich countries. Collected out of the Portugale Jesuites yeerely Japonian Epistles dated 1590, 1591, 1592, 1594, &c.
there is more, dealing with the events of the Japanese invasions of Korea from 1592 to 1598.

back to Cheong and Lee (2000) p. 272-3:
In 1601, Guzman published Historia de las Missiones in two volumes.... Guzman's work deals with the missionary works in the West Indies, China and Japan up to 1600. Of the 13 books that comprise the Historia de las Missiones over half are devoted to the mission in Japan. A segment on Korea, some 80 pages in length, appears in Volume 2, Book 12, Chapters 14 to 37 (pages 497 to 576). Guzman correctly categorizes Korea as a peninsula and explains that Korea borders China to the North and the Tatars and the "barbarians" to the northeast. He states that Korea submits annual tributes to China, is constantly at war with its neighbors, is generally mountainous with great plains stretching up the middle of the peninsula, and cultivates rice and harvests a large amount of fruits and honey.Furthermore, the Koreans roof their dwellings with rice straw, are light skinned, gentle but strong when they have to be, and are adverse to all foreign trade, as well as visitations by foreigners. Guzman also adds some reflections on the backgrounds of the 1592 War between Japan and Korea, the remarkable exploits of Korea's naval forces, China's involvement in the war, and the process through which the peace agreement was reached. To his credit, Guzman does record Cespedes's visit to Korea in Chapter 27.... According to Guzman's account, Cespedes stayed with the Japanese and their Korean captives during his 18-month long stay in Korea and took a Korean boy back to Japan with him, in preparation for the establishment of a Catholic mission in Korea.

I don't read Romance languages well, but I understand from this link: http://www.univie.ac.at/Geschichte/China-Bibliographie/blog/2011/09/14/guzman-historia-de-las-missio nes/ that we want volume 2 here: http://books.google.com.au/books/ucm?id=ErwgsbweJhgC&redir_esc=y

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 20:25:13
Assuming that the translations provided by Cheong Sung-hwa and Lee Kihan are correct, we have:

  1. An account from 1571, published in Evora, Portugal, in 1598
  2. A letter by Frois, written in Spanish while in Japan 1590, published in Rome, Milan, and Paris, with no explicit date.
  3. The 1591 and 1592 annual Jesuit letters, written by Frois in Spanish, published in Rome, Milan, Venice, Douai (France) etc. between 1595 and 1596.
  4. A letter written by Father Orantino Bresciano in 1594 regarding the 1592 invasion. Translated and published in Milan and Antwerp in 1597.
  5. Hakluyt's The Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques and Discoveries of the English Nation volume 3, published 1600
  6. Luis de Guzmán's Historia de las missiones que han hecho los religiosos de la Compañia de Jesús published 1601 (Alcala: Gracian)


Would this be enough to say that Korea, and in turn the inhabitants of the peninsula were known to Europeans before the 17th century?

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-31 18:11:04
Per submitter since submitter does not have commentary rights, but is very involved with trying to pass name:

The standard no longer focuses on influence or substantial direct contact but whether a culture was known. Documentation that may not have been adequate under the standard of significant contact, does reasonably demonstrate knowledge. Some additional documentation includes:

1. "The Arts of Korea a Resource for Educator", The Metropolitan Museum of Art. 2001

It is noted that the 13th century merchant Marco Polo, who claimed to have journeyed from Italy to China, briefly noted the existence of Korea in his travel memoirs, referring to it as the land east of China that had been annexed by Khubilai Khan (r. 1260-94). (Arts page 33 of 118) The first explorer to name Korea was Marco Polo in the end of the 13th century. He describes the battle of Kubilai Kahn against Najan, who tried to grasp the power from his uncle. When Kubilai defeated Najan, Polo mentioned that the barons and soldiers of Najan pledged loyalty to Kubilai and they were representing four provinces: Djurtsjet, Kauli, Barskol and Sikintingin. Kauli is believed to be Korea whether this word refers to the state or Koryo or the Korean peninsula as a whole. The northern part of Korea was conquered by the Mongolians as early as 1231. (Il Millione The original travel accounts by Maria Bellonci Torino Edizioni RAI Radiotelevisione Italiana, 1982) http://www.cartography.henny-savenije.pe.kr/

2. "Nangasacki November 3, 1610. Tin is bought much in Corea, that's why [it] is much retained here, I have requested if it were possible if we could do some trade on Corea here from Japan; for this purpose I have sent on March lastly with 20 picol pepper to the island Tuxcijma being around 30 mijlen from here, who [=where they] , with those of Corea, which is still another 25 mijlen from there, trade and make their journey 3 to 4 times a year hither, however previously mentioned is because of the strict laws found to be impossible, that the Governor of previously mentioned island wouldn't consent, since it would do him damage, then will previously mentioned had not taken place, have further requested since a big profit can be made, so with silk work, leather, medicine and other things which can be brought there" (To Heeren XVII; unsigned but probably from Specx. Also in translation in Nachod, Die Beziehungen etc. Enclosures 8, page XXIII).

Also while the Italian priest, Francesco Carletti, travels were dismissed in the past, we should take into account the travels of his Korean pupil to Florence, where he was educated, given the name Antonio Corea (1578?-1626). Antonio visited Holland then eventually settled in Rome. The Vatican sent him to Manchuria in the 1610s as a missionary. This boy was thought to be the first Korean who landed on the soil of Europe. http://koreanchristianity.humnet.ucla.edu/chronology-/before1876

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-08-01 07:25:38
I'm not certain how relevant 17th c. sources are (which is why I stopped at 1601, I should I stopped at 1600 on re-reading), as SENA GP.3.A. says:
(http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#GP3)
Elements and patterns documented in use during the "grey period," between 1600 and 1650, are generally allowed. This is on the grounds that they might have been in earlier use....However, if there is evidence that the element or pattern could not have been in use before 1600, such as documentation for a name in 1615 which specifically says that it was coined in that year, then it will not be allowed.

So Spex's letter in 1610 is too late, as is Carletti's slave Antonio Corea's arrival in Europe in 1606 (date from Gompertz, G. St. G. M. 1957. "Some Notes on the Earliest Western Contacts with Korea" Transactions of the Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society 33;41-54 (http://www.raskb.com/transactions/VOL33/Vol033-2.docx)), and Carletti's memoirs are also written and published after 1600.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-16 21:15:35
Onto the name!
The examples given, of Princess Jeongsun (정순공주), Princess Jeongseon (정선공주), Princess Jeongshin (정신옹주), and Princess Jeongjeong (정정옹주) don't support her use of 正 - their hanzi are:
Princess Jeongsun - 정순공주 - 貞順公主 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%88%9C%EA%B3%B5%EC%A3%BC)
Princess Jeongseon - 정선공주 - 貞善公主 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%84%A0%EA%B3%B5%EC%A3%BC)
Princess Jeongshin - 정신옹주 - 貞愼翁主(http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%8B%A0%EC%98%B9%EC%A3%BC_(%EC%A4%91%EC%A2%85) ) or 贞愼翁主 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%8B%A0%EC%98%B9%EC%A3%BC_(%ED%83%9C%EC%A2%85) )
Princess Jeongjeong - 정정옹주 - 貞正翁主 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%A0%95%EC%98%B9%EC%A3%BC_(%EC%84%A0%EC%A1%B0) )

In all cases, 정 is 貞 "chaste" http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%B2%9E and 正 "pure" only appears as the second element of Jeongjeong's name.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-07-30 00:42:24
This name is formed of the pattern <bon-gwan(clan)><ireum> The Cheongju Han clan (淸州韓氏) would be the bon-gwan. For example, Queen Inyeol's full name is listed online as <仁烈王后淸州韩氏> [Inyeol wanghu cheongju han ssi] (http://www.shinjongwoo.co.kr/name/ha/hab/cjdwn/cjd145.htm)
The Cheongju Han clan website also has:
(http://www.cheongjuhan.net/htmls/6/2-11-8.htm)
<安順王后淸州韓氏> [Ansun wanghu cheongju han ssi, Queen Ansun 1469-1494]

Which is where I hit my next problem, that non-royal women seem to be referred to as "lady of Clan" without any personal name. For instance, we know the grave goods of Important Folklore Cultural Heritage 115 (Korean: http://www.cha.go.kr/korea/heritage/search/Culresult_Db_View.jsp?mc=NS_04_03_01&VdkVgwKey=18,0115000 0,35&flag=Y English: http://jikimi.cha.go.kr/english/search_plaza_new/ECulresult_Db_View.jsp?VdkVgwKey=18,01150000,35&que ryText=*&requery=0&mc=EN_03_02) belonged to a Lady of the Dongnae Jeong Clan (夫人東萊鄭氏).

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-31 18:16:16
The name was submitted using the written in the formal manner with family name first, then given name. If this created confusion I apologize. The Hanja helps with the translation of the name and is something I am still learning. Therefore the Hanji 貞 is a better selection I am more than happy to use it. JeongMi [정미 (貞美) Cheongju Han, [한 (韓)]

Since the family name is not in question, as mentioned before feminine given names are currently difficult to document because female names were not widely recorded. Several burial sites from the Korea notes the women as the lady of her clan or that they are the Mother of her first born son instead of her given name. What we do know is that women did have given names. Based on what knowledge we have of Korean name structure and those feminine names which are documented we can make a reasonable determination of whether a possible element combination would have been within period for an actual individual. However if this proves to difficult, I am more than happy to take Jeongsun [정순공주 - 貞順公主] as a given name. Princess Jeongsun - 정순공주 - 貞順公主 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A0%95%EC%88%9C%EA%B3%B5%EC%A3%BC)

I obtain a rough translation of Jeongsun [정순 - 貞順] as Ascending The second part of the hangul/hanji means Princess [공주 - 公主] which is a title and therefore should not be considered. http://hanja.naver.com/category/name For the example in the commentary for Queen Inyeol's full name <인열왕후(仁烈王后) [Inyeol wanghu cheongju han ssi] (http://www.shinjongwoo.co.kr/name/ha/hab/cjdwn/cjd145.htm) includes a posthumous name and a honorific. • Inyeol 인열 - is the given name • cheongju han - is the family name • Wanghu - Is a posthumous name with the suffix wanghu (왕후, 王后) given to a queen consort when she passes away. Wanghu gives the meaning of `Queen'. http://thetalkingcupboard.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/royal-titles-and-styles-in-joseon-dynasty/ • Ssi (Hangul: 씨, Hanja: 氏) is an honorific that is most commonly used amongst people of approximately equal speech level. It is attached at the end of the full name, such as Kimcheolsu-ssi (김철수씨) or simply after the first name, Cheolsu-ssi (철수씨) if the speaker is more familiar with someone. Appending -ssi to the surname, for instance Kim-ssi (김씨), can be quite rude, as it indicates the speaker considers himself to be of a higher social status than the person he is speaking to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_honorifics

What we know is that Korean family selected two Chinese characters with good meanings and sounds, and put them together. Some characters are associated with boys, some with girls, and some characters are unisex. There is a list of names of women from period, family names are first then the given name. http://medieval-baltic.us/korwomen.html Ho, Chohui (許楚姬, 허초희) (1563-1589) -- poet. (Kweon, 2003) Family name Ho [Revised Romanization Heo McCune-Reischauer Hŏ] 허 [許] Given name Chohui Revised Romanization Chohui McCune-Reischauer Ch'ohŭi 초희 [楚姬] Pen name Nanseolheon Hangul 난설헌 Hanja 蘭雪軒 Revised Romanization Nanseolheon McCune-Reischauer Nansŏrhŏn Hwang Jin-i (黃眞伊, 황진이) (c. 1520-1560) -- gisaeng and poet. (O'Rourke, 2004) Family name Hwang Hanjul 황 Hanja 黃 Given name is Jin-i 진이 Hanja 眞伊 She was later known as Myeong-wol Hangul 명월 Hanja 明月 which means Bright Moon Sim Su-Gyeong (沈守慶, 심수경) (1516-1599) -- poet. (National Research Institute of Cultural Heritage) Sim family name 심 Given name Su-Gyeong (沈守慶, 수경) (1516-1599) -- poet. (National Research Institute of Cultural Heritage) Yi Hyang-geum (李香今) (1573-1610) -- gisaeng, musician and poet. (Yi, 2004, 58) Yi Sug-weon (李淑媛) (?-1592?) -- poet. (Mann, 2004;8, Kim Haboush, 2004;113, Chang et al. 1999;215) Jang-geum (長今, 장금) -- 16th century medical woman (Wikipedia, 2008) Given name only (I obtain a rough translation of gold for Geum) Kye-geum -- 16th century medical woman mentioned with Jang-geum (Wikipedia, 2008). http://medieval-baltic.us/korwomen.html

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:44:27
The support for the registerability of the name looks fine. Nobody had any idea about the documentation of the name, except that we were all impressed by its length.


8: Chrestienne d'Arles -New Device

OSCAR thinks the name is registered as Chrestienne d'Arles in November of 2006, via Trimaris.

Vert, four oak leaves in cross stems to center within an orle of acorns argent.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:38:17
I find no conflicts. Blazon-fu: Vert, a cross of four oak leaves conjoined at the stems within an orle of acorns argent.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-07-20 09:55:07
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:45:21
The primary leaves should be larger and the secondary acorns smaller. No conflicts found.


9: Ciar ingen Ui Meic Thire -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Corwyn Sinister(11/1988)

Sable, per pale an inverted toad tergiant and two crossed keys Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (Irish) most important.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1151/2014-07-04/11-45-21_Ciar_ingen_Ui_Meic_Thire_Name_w_docs_-n-amp;_Device_2.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1151/2014-07-04/11-45-23_Ciar_ingen_Ui_Meic_Thire_Name_w_docs_-n-amp;_Device_3.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1151/2014-07-04/11-45-24_Ciar_ingen_Ui_Meic_Thire_Name_w_docs_-n-amp;_Device_4.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1151/2014-07-04/11-45-26_Ciar_ingen_Ui_Meic_Thire_Name_w_docs_-n-amp;_Device_5.jpg
#5 https://oscar.sca.org/images/cImages/1151/2014-07-04/11-45-28_Ciar_ingen_Ui_Meic_Thire_Name_w_docs_-n-amp;_Device_6.jpg

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:22:06
I find no conflicts.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 03:43:21
Please please please summarize the documentation, rather than merely attaching pages. Needing to refer back and forth to images makes commenting difficult.

Let's do this simply:

<Ciar> is a female given name found in "Index of Names in Irish Annals" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Ciar.shtml) with Annals dates of 679, 681. Ciar is also a saint's name.

<ingen Uí> is the correct way to form a clan affiliation byname in pre-1200 Gaelic

<Meic Thíre> is the genitive form of the given name Mac Tíre, also found in Mari's "Index" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/MacTire.shtml) with an Annals date of 1025.

In clan affiliation bynames for women, the father's name always lenites unless it starts with a vowel (http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#clanaffiliationbyname). In pre-1200 Gaelic, there is no spelling change when the name starts with an 'M' (http://medievalscotland.org/scotlang/lenition.shtml).

So this name is documentable and correctly formed. All of the accent marks have been omitted, which is permissible.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:46:30
All those pages of documentation are fine in the packet, but what should appear here is a summary of what they say that's pertinent to the submission.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:24:25
I find no conflicts.

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-07-20 09:56:49
Scan looks a little more like copper on my computer.. anyone else?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-20 13:00:53
It's just an orangey yellow, with no possibility of being mistaken for gules, so it should be okay.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-20 14:40:55
It looks likea computer generated gold as opposed to yellow but definitely Or

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 11:42:02
Most of the "or" in this letter looks very orange, though not all (e.g. Beatrice's device).

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:07:02
Note to submission herald: you might check the color levels and tweak them to a more yellow-y orange if your scans are off, to avoid people grousing overly much if these get sent up to Laurel for consideration. :)

Blazon fu: Toads and frogs default to tergiant, and this is in pale not per pale so an improved blazon is Sable, in pale a toad inverted and two keys in saltire Or.

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-22 10:57:45
On my screen the tinctures look exactly like the OSCAR generated version.

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-22 11:13:17
Yes, that is OSCAR saying "this is orange", not "this is yellow".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:47:43
According to the Glossary of Terms, frogs (and presumably toads) are tergiant by default, and keys are "Fesswise, wards to dexter and facing downwards; when palewise, must be specified (wards to chief or wards to base)". Presumably these should be "two keys wards to base crossed in saltire". No conflicts found.


10: Deborah Micheli -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister wavy vert and azure, a seastag Or.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

Deborah: Mundane given name

Names of Jews in Rome In the 1550's by Yehoshua ben Haim haYerushalmi

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/yehoshua/rome_names.html

Micheli: Micheli is listed in Family Names Appearing in the Catasto of 1427

FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Catasto of 1427

http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/catasto/newsearch/family_names.html

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:25:32
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:48:19
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:29:23
I find no conflicts. The sea-stag has a bit of room to grow, let him!

Matilda Wynter at 2014-07-21 21:33:53
Depending on the outcome of the June LOAR, there will be a conflict with Geoffrey Hart: Vert, a seastag Or, with but one DC for the field...

Edited to add: Yep there's a conflict now!

Andreas von Meißen (Rowel) at 2014-07-28 00:45:42
This was my first thought as well.

Matilda Wynter at 2014-07-28 10:11:28
you'd get another DC for a contourney stag, not sure if that would introduce a new conflict

Arwyn of Leicester at 2014-07-20 12:23:41
Again the sea-stag seems to look like copper.. scan problem?

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-20 14:43:48
It looks likea computer generated gold as opposed to yellow but definitely Or

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-22 10:59:34
On my screen the tinctures look exactly like the OSCAR generated version.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:49:58
We normally spell it with a hyphen or a space: "sea-stag" or "sea stag". There was a ruling under the RfS that charges overlying a complex partition line in a low contrast divided field were not registerable. Don't know if this has been upheld under SENA. No conflicts found.


11: Devasse ni Farquhar McFein -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 2002, via Trimaris

Per chevron inverted azure and purpure, a chevron inverted between a cresent and a domestic cat sejant guardant winged argent.

Submission History:

KLoI 07/10

Previous submission Per pale azure and purpure, on a cartouche argent, a cat sable was returned in kingdom with the following reason,

"This Device was returned for redraw: The Cartouches as drawn is not registratable, the only depictions of this type of cartouche used in this manner would be reserved for royalty.

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/cartouche.htm Which would make these Arms pretentious."

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:33:47
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:50:50
"crescent" The two secondaries should be more nearly the same size. Perhaps this would be easier to do if they were swapped with the crescent in base and the cat in chief. No conflicts found.


12: Edward Mandeville -New Name

No major changes.

1350 Southern England

Edward: An Index to the 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Lincolnshire, England by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (mka Kathleen M. O'Brien)

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/GivCtoF.html

Mandeville: William de Mandeville 3rd Earl of Essex died 1189.

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:34:36
I find no conflicts.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 03:52:24
<de Maundeville> appears in Kent (southern England) dated to 1292 in Bardsley s.n. Mandeville. The spelling <de Mandeville> appears in 'Close Rolls, Edward III: January 1363', Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward III: volume 11: 1360-1364 (1909), pp. 509. (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=103132&strquery=Mandeville). The bynames have not been modernized.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:51:52
The Travels of Sir John Mandeville was published in 1371 and became the best-seller of its day. The purported author is probably fictitious, but the name was certainly around at the time. I commend the book to all Society members.


13: Faith Tomlinson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2013, via Trimaris

Vert, on a bend argent between a trillium and a horse within a bordure argent.three butcher knives sable.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:53:16
The knives appear to be inverted. Blazon fu: "Vert, on a bend argent between a trillium and a horse rampant three butcher knives sable, a bordure argent." No conflicts found.


14: Genevieve nic Gwynn -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Gwen Pengam(9/1998)

Azure, a welsh dragon argent and on a chief purpure fimbrated three fleur-de-lis argent.

Genevieve: Late period French Feminine Names Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/latefrench.html

nic: daughter of patrynomic

Gwynn: Dictionary of English Names and Welsh Surnames, Bordstey pg. 345

Nick. "the while" (welgh) probably from the complexion, of English White

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:00:46
<nic> as a patronymic marker is found only in Scots. For the construction <nic Gwynn> to be registerable, <Gwynn> would have to be a Scots (or possibly English) given name, rather than a surname, as it is documented.

In addition, <Gwynn> appears only as the header form in Bardsley; there is no dated example of this spelling.

<Gwynne> appears as a surname in Reaney & Wilson s.n. Gwinn dated to 1481-82. So <Genevieve Gwynne> would be registerable Anglo-French name.

In addition, we do find <Gwynn> as an English given name in the Family Search Historical Records:

Gwynn Parker; Male; Marriage; 11 Sep 1639; Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England; Batch: M05576-1
This may make it worth sending the question up to Pelican of whether <nic Gwynn> is permissible even though it combines two languages in the same name phrase, because English and Scots are so very closely related.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:56:29
Don't have access to "Bordstey", but Morgan & Morgan have a lengthy entry for "Gwyn, Gwynn", et al. They note that "Gwyn" is a masculine adjective and that the feminine form is "Gwen". They have an extensive discussion of the grammar of the name including the statement that "The epithet after a woman's name would naturally be `Wen'." Don't know what this would mean in reference to a feminine patronymic, though. As submitted this uses three languages: French, (post-period?)Gaelic, and Welsh. That's not a problem here because the Gaelic patronymic particle cannot be used with a Welsh name. Change it to the Welsh "ferch" or drop it entirely and that problem goes away.

Device Comments:

Vettorio Antonello at 2014-07-16 09:57:15
I think this runs afoul of SENA A3C: "Peripheral ordinaries may not be voided or fimbriated, nor may other secondary, tertiary, or overall charges."

Chiefs of peripheral ordinaries.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:40:13
Concur with Vettorio. You can only fimbriate two-sided ordinaries.

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 08:27:05
The client approves changing the device design to this:

Azure, a welsh dragon argent and on a chief argent three fleur-de-lis purpure.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 11:44:14
Much better this way.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 14:59:11
"Welsh" is a proper adjective. "fimbriated" "fleurs-de-lis" Don't think we can fimbriate a chief. Glad to see that the client is agreeable to swapping the tinctures of the chief and the tertiaries. Don't know of anything that distinguishes a Welsh dragon from a generic one.


15: Hróðgeirr Oddgeirsson -New Name & New Device

Per pale pally Or and vert and Or, in sinister a winged spearhead sable.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Norse) most important.

Hróðgeirr" Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name 1977, pg. 4

Viking Names found in Landnámabók Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html

Oddgeirr" Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name 1977, pg. 13

Viking Names found in Landnámabók Aryanhwy merch Catmael

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:34:30
Name is correctly cited and formed. When sending this up, use only the Geirr Bassi cites, because they are on the No Photocopy list.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:00:33
Docs check out. References from Geirr Bassi scarcely need page numbers, but if used, they should be correct: the page for the given name is 11, not 4.

Device Comments:

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-17 09:20:03
Unfortunately this must be returned for marshaling.

Simeon ben Iucef de Alcacar at 2014-07-17 13:00:32
Agreed.

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-23 15:12:09
Please forgive me if I'm missing any rules. First time as commentary / helping clients getting names /devices passed. Client would like to try passing the attached file to get rid of the marshalling. I do not know if the original has to be returned in order to "resubmit" the changed device. Or, a boar spearhead sable between two pallets vert.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:01:23
"paly" Can't dispute the statement that this is marshaling by our rules. The revised version not only avoids the marshaling problem but looks much better as well.

Alexandra (Shandra) Vazquez de Granada (Eyas) at 2014-08-05 11:52:02
I concur with Green Anchor on the newly offered device. Proposed blazon on the new device: Or, a boar spearhead sable between two pallets vert. (Can also use the originally proposed "winged spearhead" instead).


16: Judith Tomlinson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2013, via Trimaris

Vert, on a bend sinister , between two horse heads contourny Or three shamrocks vert.

Device Comments:

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:16:44
It needs to be clearer if these horse's heads are couped (cut straight across or with a slight concave line) or erased (more jaggedy, like they were ripped off). Blazon fu: Vert, on a bend sinister between two horse's heads [erased or couped] contourny Or three shamrocks vert. No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:03:29
Agree with Wreath Emerita's blazon except that charges on bends or bends sinister follow the line of the ordinary by defaul, so these must be specified as palewise. No conflicts found.


17: Kára Kveldulfsdóttir -New Name & New Device

Azure, a saltire argent overall a dragon's head erased sable horned gules.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

Kára" The Old Norse Name Geirr Bassi Haraldsson Pg.12

Kveldulf: Saga of the Icelander Egils Saga

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:37:17
I find no conflicts. When sending this up, the name should be entirely cited from Geirr Bassi, which has all the elements and is No Photocopy.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:04:28
Geirr Bassi shows "Kveld-Úlfr" only as an epithet. I have Egil's Saga only in translation, but it has Ulf Bjalfison being tagged with "Kveldulf" because of his bad temper and the resulting rumor that he was a shape-changer. The saga refers to him by that nickname, but it was clearly not his given name. The client will have to provide evidence of Old Norse patronymics being sometimes taken from nicknames.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-08-01 22:12:31
Treat it as a pre-pended byname of her father?
<Kára> p. 12, Geirr Bassi
<Úlfr> p. 15, Geirr Bassi
<Kveld-> is the prepended byname of Kveld-Úlfr in the Landnámabók. It's in Viking Bynames found in the Landnámabók by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/vikbynames.html) lists it, but I don't have my copy of Geirr Bassi handy.

Device Comments:

Vettorio Antonello at 2014-07-16 10:04:24
Per SENA A3B4a: Placement of Charges: Charges must have good contrast with the background on which they are placed. Primary, secondary, and overall charge groups are considered to be placed on the field and must have good contrast with it.

This is a sable head on Azure field. Color on color unfortunately.

Andreas von Meißen (Rowel) at 2014-07-28 00:46:49
Agreed.

Simeon ben Iucef de Alcacar at 2014-07-17 13:04:46
This conflicts with the badge for Scotland, Azure, a saltire argent with one DC for adding the dragon's head, but none others.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:37:51
Concur: this breaks the rule of tincture and conflicts with Scotland.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:05:41
Overall charges must contrast with the field rather then the charge(s) they overlie. She'll need to swap the tinctures around to achieve this. Simplest choice would be to make the field argent and the saltire azure, which would also eliminate the conflict with Scotland.


18: Mæva Eíríksdóttir -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2003, via Drachenwald

Purpure, a tricorporate bee proper and a chief argent fretty purpure.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:40:17
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:06:35
No conflicts found.


19: Mæva Eíríksdóttir -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2003, via Drachenwald

Fieldless, on a bee skep Or a gothic letter "M" purpure.

Badge Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:42:38
I find no conflicts. Blazon-fu: (Fieldless) On a beehive...

Simeon ben Iucef de Alcacar at 2014-07-21 08:58:17
Am I correct that the font of the letter need not be blazoned?

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:18:50
Correct. It has to be in a period hand, just like we require our other heraldic art to be in a period style, but we don't have to blazon the specific hand (just like we don't blazon if that's an early-period English lion or a late-period Italian lion).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:07:10
Versus Cáemfind ingen Chobthaig, badge reg. 1/00 via Atlantia: "(Fieldless) A beehive Or", there is a DC for addition of the tertiary plus the virtual DC for fieldlessness.


20: Marie mac Pherson -New Name & New Device

Quarterly argent and azure, a cat rampant Or maintaining an arrow azure.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Marie: "Marie" pg. 229 - Repertoire Des Nome De Personnes Artésienc en isch

Names from Sixteenth Century Picardy by Arval Benicoeur, Feminine Names

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/senlis/

Marie Mac Pherson: et al. Roger Bergee

Mac Pherson: pg. 557b Donald Mac Pherson, 1420 - The Surnames of Scotland by George F. Black

In the book of Dean Listmore the name is spelled Mac Pherson Alexander

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:44:27
I find no conflicts.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:03:45
This can (and should) be a wholly Scots name:

<Marie> is found as a Scots female name in "Index of Scots Names in Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/mary.html) s.n. Mary, with the submitted spelling dated to 1555, 1565 and 1584.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:08:00
French/Scots names are registerable according to SENA. The quote from Black is actually for "M'apharsone", but there is a 1420 citation for Donald Macpherson. Since the surname isn't documented as Gaelic, the patronymic particle doesn't need to inflect for gender.

Device Comments:

Simeon ben Iucef de Alcacar at 2014-07-17 13:05:34
Does the arrown need to be blazoned as inverted?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:41:57
Blazon-fu: Quarterly argent and azure, a domestic cat rampant Or maintaining an arrow inverted bendwise azure.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-21 05:22:32
Lots of conflicts here, including Gelre (reg. 04/2006 via Laurel), "Azure, a lion rampant queue-forchy Or," United Provinces (reg. 12/1994 via Laurel), "Gules, a lion rampant crowned Or maintaining a sword proper and a sheaf of seven arrows inverted argent tipped Or," Bulgaria (reg. 12/1994 via Laurel), "Gules, a lion rampant crowned Or", Rhine, Palatinate of the (reg. 12/1994 via Laurel), "Sable, a lion rampant Or crowned gules," and Belgium (reg. 12/1994 via Laurel), "Sable, a lion rampant Or."

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:08:34
Agree with Schwarzdrachen's conflict calls.


21: Melina Jolisyeux -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 1992, via Caid

Azure estencelly argent, a gore argent and a daisy proper.

History: Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Noir Licorne) at 2013-10-06 19:34:21

The daisy is in its expected location so Azure estencelly argent, a daisy proper and a gore argent. The roundels should be drawn a bit larger, and they may in fact be returnably small.

Changes: Device was redrawn with larger sparks and reblazoned.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:49:03
I find no conflicts. As a peripheral ordinary, the gore is secondary and should be blazoned last. Blazon-fu: Azure estencelly, a daisy and a gore argent.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:09:09
Agree that a primary charge is blazoned before a peripheral. No conflicts found.


22: Miro di Marco -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Trimaris LoI of December 31, 2013 as submitted.

Per pale Or and argent, on a card pique sable three card trefles Or.

Researching Medieval Cards

Playing Cards - History and Useful Information

•Coeurs, Hearts - denotes the Church.

•Carreaux, Diamonds - denotes the arrowheads which are symbolic of the vassels from whom the archers were drawn.

•Trefles or Clover, Clubs - signifies the husbandmen.

• Piques, Spades - denotes the the points of Lances, symbols for the knights themselves.

http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/playing-cards.htm

Games Guild of Ealdormere

1470 C. E. The French create our current suits of Hearts, Spades, Clubs and Diamonds (though the French called them Hearts, Spearheads, Trefoils and Squares).

http://gamesguildofealdormere.blogspot.com/2011/09/brief-timeline-of-medieval-playing-card.html

Device Comments:

Madog Hir of Aire Faucon at 2014-07-29 02:10:33
Do we count a DC between piques and trefles? If not, does this fall afoul of Sword and Dagger?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:09:42
No conflicts found.


23: Morina de Clare -New Name & New Device

Purpure, a triquetra and on a chief argent a natural panther sable between two roses purpure.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (14th Century Irish) most important.

Morina: 1; probably a diminutive of Irish Mor, with Latinization. If so, this counts as Irish context, although the remainder of the entry is Latin. Names and Naming Practices in the Red Book of Ormond (Ireland 14th Century) by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lateirish/ormond-given.html#Given

de Clare: A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames by Bardsley, pg 183 S.n. Clare gives the example of Richard de Clare died 1090, Elizabeth de Clare, one of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare's descendants, established Clare College in the 14th century.

Clare College is the second oldest of Cambridge's thirty-one colleges (its foundation having been anticipated, among surviving institutions, only by Peterhouse). It was founded in 1326, and generously endowed a few years later by Lady Elizabeth de Clare

http://www.clare.cam.ac.uk/College-History/

http://www.castlewales.com/clares.html

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:10:15
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:44:22
Blazon-fu: Purpure, a triquetra fretted with an annulet and on a chief argent a natural panther sable between two roses purpure.

Purpure + Argent + Sable + Triquetra + Annulet + Chief + Panther + Rose = 8, right at the limit of complexity.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:10:50
The panther is (very, very slightly) passant, and should be drawn clearly as either that or statant. The triquetra is interlaced with a annulet. No conflicts found.


24: Oldenfeld, Barony of -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2005, via Trimaris

Vert, a lion couchant gardant Or.

Populous Badge

Badge Comments:

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-21 05:25:46
Conflict with Aénor de Winchester (reg. 12/1983 via Meridies), "Gyronny wavy gules and argent, a lioness dormant coward Or." One DC for the field; none for the type or head posture of the cat.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:11:37
"Populace"

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-31 23:23:52
Consider the Arms of the Barony of Oldenfeld registered 08/79 Vert a lion Couchant gardant Or, langued and clawed gules, mouthed sable fanged argent, orbed vert, in base a laurel wreath Or
and their augmentation registered 06/02 Vert, in pale a lion couchant guardant and a laurel wreath Or, as an augmentation, within the Laurel wreath a triskele argent


25: Rosamond Alys Darlinge -New Name & New Device

Vert, a pheon argent in base between two flanches ermine. each charged with a rose gules.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Rosamond: 1282(W)

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Rosamund

Alys: 1525 Motley

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Alice

Darlinge: DSB 1576

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juetta/parish/surnames_d.html

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:12:03
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:14:49
Some of those at the meeting didn't like this because they thought it would look really, really bad on heraldic garb. I didn't see any problem till it was explained to me. No conflicts found.

Matilda Wynter at 2014-08-08 12:54:03
I agree that this device should NEVER EVER EVER go on a sideless surcote. Aside from that, no problems.


26: Sabine de Saintes -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Trimaris LoI of January 26, 2014 as submitted.

Argent, a bend sinister gules between a hound rampant and a dolphin contourney sable within a bordure gules.

Device Comments:

Matilda Wynter at 2014-07-21 21:40:10
I don't know if this would make the device returnable, but when I look at this, all I see is "no dogs or dolphins allowed"

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:15:20
"contourny" No conflicts found.


27: Sæbjorn Richwinson -New Name & New Device

Sable, a mullet of seven points argent and a base barry wavy argent and azure.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Sæbjorn - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name 1977, pg. 15

www.vikinganswerlady.com

Richwinson - Patronymic Richwin: Hans Bahlow, German Names, pg. 412

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:49:26
You cannot combine the Old Norse patronymic formation (given name + son) with a German name. SENA PN.1.B.2.b.3 (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN1B2b3): "3. Bynames Constructed from Given Name Elements: In many languages, bynames of relationship can be formed from attested given names. The specific pattern used to form the byname must be found in the language of the elements used to form it."

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-21 05:26:27
And the appropriate way to form a patronymic byname in German is to simply use the father's name, unmodified.

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-21 17:43:27
Submitter would prefer Rickardson (son of Richard), but Norse.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-23 15:17:56
Geirr Bassi p. 14 has <Ríkarðr> and <Ríkharðr>, which would give us patronymics of <Ríkarðarson> or <Ríkharðarson>. And <Sæbjǫrn> should be cited with the o-ogonek.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-08-01 21:25:18
Just checking, when he says Norse does he mean Viking Age or what? Because there's <Sæbjørn Rikardsson>...

<Sæbiorn Helgha son> 1317 Diplomatarium Norvegicum (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=151&s=n&str=S%E6b%rn)
<Sæbjørn Siuordszonn> 1558 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=17903&s=n&str=S%E6bj%rn) and
<Arne Rikardsson> 1494 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3288&s=n&str=Rikards%)
<Thomass Rikardsson> 1509 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=6384&s=n&str=Rikards%)

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-26 17:05:45
Submitter would like Sæbjǫrn Ríkarðarson.

Sæbjǫrn - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson The Old Norse Name 1977, pg 15

Ríkarðarson - Patronymic of Ríkarðr: Geirr Bassi, pg 14

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:17:38
The client's second choice is much better, and avoids the problems we were going to point out with the first version.

Device Comments:

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:27:35
Conflict with the device of Anna af Aarnimetsä (April 1997 Drachenwald): Sable, a mullet and a base wavy argent. DC for change of tincture of the base, but that's it.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-22 01:22:09
I know Countess Anna and can approach her about permission to conflict if that's desired.

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-22 18:41:22
Submitter would be most appreciative if you could ask Countess Ana for permission to conflict.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-27 01:15:03
Can you email all the details (submitter's SCA name, submitter's legal name, blazon of device) to herald@drachenwald.sca.org, so I don't forget to ask Anna?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:18:46
A base wavy barry wavy argent and azure can be more succinctly blazoned as a ford.


28: Seamus mac Airt -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Seoinin mac Meic Raith(6/1998)

Per fess azure and scaly argent and azure, in chief a triskelion argent.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (Irish) most important.

Seamus: "Seamus" pg. 163 - Ó Corrain & Maguire, Irish Names

Index of Names in Irish Annals: Séamus, Mari Elspeth nicBryan, http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Seamus.shtml Early Modern Irish Gaelic (c1200-c1700) nominative form: Séamus

Mac Airt: Index of Names in Irish Annals Descriptive By Names: MOR pg. 1385 - by Mari Elspeth nie Bryan

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Mor.shtml

Example - Art mac Airt Moir h. Mailsechlainn Co. 1385.2

Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:08:23
<Airt> is the genitive form of the male Gaelic name <Art>, found in Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's "Index of Names in Irish Annals" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Art.shtml) with relevant Annals dates of 1414, 1458, 1473, 1478, 1512, 1513, 1518.

The relevant Annals dates for Séamus in Mari's "Index" are 1398, 1405, 1448, 1463, 1467, 1484, 1486, 1502, 1511, 1519, 1567, 1581, 1608, making this a nice 15th and 16th cen. Gaelic name.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:19:37
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:50:54
As drawn, where the blue scales collide with the fessline makes the line of division look like a low-amplitude wavy. Either make it wavy, or align the scaly so that the tips of the crescents just touch the fessline.

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 07:28:16
Adjusted scales.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 11:49:33
MUCH better!

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:33:17
Probable conflict with the badge of Trimaris for the Order of the Triskele: Azure, a triskele argent. There's a DC for the field, but probably nothing for putting the triskele in chief, as I'm not at all sure it could overlap the line of division without a contrast problem popping up.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:20:31
Our opinion is that this is definitely a conflict.


29: Sebastian Halyburton -New Household Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 1989, via Meridies

Griffin's Aviary

Griffin: Heraldic monster

Aviary: Bind enclosure - Hugh de Fouilloy - De Avibus

http://bestiary.ca/prisources/psdetail1086.htm

Household Name Comments:

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:09:28
To use "Aviary" as a household designator, the submitter will have to show that the term: (1) existed in period; and (2) was used in period to referred to a group of people. I do not see any documentation for either of these points.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-20 21:51:02
Aviary - COED A-O 1971 ed. pg. 585 is dated to 1572 listed as a large cage, house or enclosure, in which birds are kept.
Could this not fall under the "inn or tenement house" category?

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-21 05:32:21
A large cage or house where birds are kept is not going to provide us with a model for organized groups of people.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-21 06:43:54
Why would it not fall under the "inn or tenement house" category?

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 07:42:34
I really and truly am not saying this in a snarky way: Because birds are not people. We have never registered enclosures used solely for animals as household designators. Much more documentation would be needed to make the argument that animal enclosures are appropriate for identifying groups of people -- such as examples of a period group of people referring to themselves in such a fashion.

There's also another major problem with this name. Even if <Aviary> were an acceptable designator, it conflicts with <Griffin Freehold>, a household name registered to John ap Griffin in March of 1978. The designators are treated as identical for conflicts purposes when dealing with non-personal names. So we are left comparing <Griffin> and <Griffins>, which almost certainly conflict.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-07-22 01:22:47
"Because birds are not people." I can't really say it any better than that.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:21:27
Agree that even if we could accept this as possible place name, it isn't suitable as a household name.


30: Signý Thorstensdóttir -New Name

No major changes.

Signý - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name 1977, pg. 14

www.vikinganswerlady.com

Thorstensdóttir - Patronymic from Thorsten: Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name 1977, pg. 16

"Þorsteinn" Old Norse Spelling.

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:51:58
When this goes up, please use just the citations from Geirr Bassi, since they are on the No Photocopy list. The name is not correctly constructed. The patronymic would be Þorsteinsdóttir, not -sten- but -stein-.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:22:34
Docs check out, save for the misspelled patronymic that Orle pointed out.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-08-01 21:41:20
If the submitter is ok with losing the accents, she can keep <Thorstensdottir>:
<Olaff Thorstensson> 1420 Diplomatarium Norvegicum (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=671&s=n&str=Thorstens%n)
<Sigurder Thorstensson> 1437 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1859&s=n&str=Thorstens%on)
<Olaff Thorstensson> 1545 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=11818&s=n&str=Thorstens%on)

<Signy Styrmisdotter> 1404 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=6875&s=n&str=S_gny)

-dottir can be documented with:
<frw Margaretta Eilifs dottir> 1425 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1816&s=n&str=%dottir)
<ffrv Ælin Laurentza dottir> 1476 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=13747&s=n&str=%dottir)
<Elene Trondz dottir> 1506 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1021&s=n&str=%dottir)

To form <Signy Thorstensdottir.


31: Sigrun Ionsdottir -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity for Norway 1300-1450.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Sigrun: Diplomatarium Norvegicum (vol 1-XXI)

http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=2602&s=n&str=sigrun

Ion: Diplomatarium Norvegicum (vol 1-XXI)

http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=362&s=n&str=Ion

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:23:19
Don't read Norwegian, but the docs appear to check out.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-08-01 21:49:28
Better way of setting the summary out:

Sigrun
<Sigrunn Gunnærs dotter> and <Sigrun> 1359 Diplomatarium Norvegicum, volume 3 p. 246 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=2602&s=n&str=sigrun)
Ionsdottir
<Ion Nikulasson> 1358 Diplomatarium Norvegicum, volume 1, p. 282 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=362&s=n&str=Ion)

What is missing, however, is the -dottir ending. Here is:
<Jngeborgh Ions dottir> 1392 Diplomatarium Norvegicum, volume 12, p. 97 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=10589&s=n&str=Ions%20dottir)
<Ragna Ions dottir> 1423 Diplomatarium Norvegicum, volume 12, p. 135 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=10637&s=n&str=Ions%20dottir)
<Gudhridho Jonsdottir j Hemmings husom> 1408 Diplomatarium Norvegicum, volume 2, p. 452 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1733&s=n&str=%onsdottir)

Seriously nice Norwegian name!


32: Trimaris, Kingdom of -New Order Name & New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 1985, via Trimaris

Seawall, Order of the

Azure, a wall argent masoned sable and a base wavy azure.

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
No major changes.
Sound most important.
Meaning most important.

Submission follows the pattern of Other Adjective plus Charge as described in Juliana de Luna's Medieval Secular Order Names

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/order/new

Seawall - COED P-Z 1971 ed. pg. 2699 is dated to 1416 listed as a wall or embankment to prevent encroachment of the sea.

Order Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:23:49
Looks OK.

Badge Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:53:29
Blazon-fu: Azure, a wall argent masoned sable issuant from a base wavy azure.

The crenels on the embattlement should be as tall as they are wide. You can't expect your archers to hide themselves behind flat crenelations! ;)

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 07:39:13
The crenels adjusted.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 11:57:16
Isn't a wall in heraldry a fess embattled, masoned? Perhaps this should be blazoned as a field per fess embattled.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:24:41
No conflicts found. Glad to see the embattlement redrawn.


33: Trimaris, Kingdom of -New Heraldic Title

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 1985, via Trimaris

Mast Herald

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Meaning most important.

This submission follows the pattern of "Charge" plus Herald.

Heraldic Title Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:54:29
I don't believe I have ever seen just a mast used as a heraldic charge. How would it be different from a pole?

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 09:06:15
Although this is only a name submission and not a device or badge, I would imagine that a badge would look something like this, NOTE: this is only my idea of how it would look, NOT an official submission.

Argent, a ships mast azure within a bordure azure.

1: Image 1

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 10:35:55

That's a mast with a pennant, yard, and sail furled. The mast itself is a big pole, the rest must be separately blazoned. The Oxford English Dictionary has the word itself as early as King Alfred's Boethius, with definitions:

  • An upright pole or spar, usually raked, which is fixed or stepped in the keel of a sailing ship in order to support the sails, either directly or by means of horizontal spars.
  • From as early as 1353: A piece of timber suitable for making into a ship's mast, spar, etc.
  • 1500s: A pole or length of timber, as used in the construction of various articles, for scaffolding, etc.
  • From the mid-1500s: An upright pole or similar vertical structure resembling a ship's mast, esp. one supporting a flag, lightning conductor, broadcasting aerial, etc.; such a pole or structure forming part of a building, crane, etc. Also: a construction, often taking the form of a latticework tower or tripod, erected on a ship for various purposes, such as radio transmission, etc.

I think, in order to consider this a heraldic charge, we have to have documentation that a mast alone was used as a heraldic charge.

Ardan O Raghailligh at 2014-07-23 20:22:11
What about a vexillum? http://mistholme.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/flag_vexillum.jpg While not a ship's mast, visually similar?

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-23 20:51:04
It has to do with the nautical theme.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:25:19
Looks OK.


34: Wilhelm Philip Josef von Klett -New Name & New Device

Checky argent and sable, a cross formy vert and on a chief purpure three fleur-de-lys Or.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Wilhelm: German Names Hans Barlow pg. 554

Philip" John or Philip Platt IGI P01218-1

Josef" Josef Bloght IGI C05242-3

von" "from"

Klett: German Names Hans Barlow pg. 271

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:56:21
SENA Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixA) doesn't have a pattern for German of three given names plus a locative. This construction would need to be documented.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-20 04:17:30
Appendix A does permit double given names + byname + locative in German. Is there any support for <Josef> as a surname?

Improving the documentation overall,

<Wilhelm> is found as a German male name in "German Names from Nürnberg, 1497" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/nurnberg1497.html)

<Philip> appears as a male given name in the same article (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/german/nurnberg1497.html)

There is evidence of <Joseph> as a German surname in the Family Search Historical Records:

Catherine Joseph; Female; Marriage; 05 Nov 1588; Evangelisch, Frankenthal, Pfalz, Bavaria; Batch: M98429-2 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J4YT-F98)
Margaretha Joseph; Female; Christening; 03 Nov 1571; Ulm, Württemberg, Germany; Batch: C02686-0 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NC7W-BS4)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:26:13
"Bahlow" Docs from there check out. Haven't looked up the others. If we call "Josef" an unmarked patronymic, this form should be registerable.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 14:57:57
The vert cross is placed on an almost solid black area of the checky. Reversing the check colors would result in white checks at the intersections of the arms, providing much better contrast.

Collyne Greymoire (Collyne Greymoire (Lymphad Trimaris)) at 2014-07-19 09:18:07
This is the checky reversed. With the Cross Fimbrated.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 10:25:16
That is amazingly better.

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 11:59:11
Reversing the checks is a big improvement.

Emma de Fetherstan (Wreath Emeritus) at 2014-07-21 23:38:42
Much better with the checks reversed. No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:27:00
"fleurs-de-lys" It's surprising what an improvement swapping the tinctures of the field makes. No conflicts found.


35: Zafira bint Katz -New Name & New Device

Per pale argent and sable, three gouttes gules and a feather argent.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Middle-Eastern Jew) most important.
Meaning most important.

Zafira (victorious)

Jewish Women's Names in an Arab Context: Names from the Geniza of Cairo by Juliana de Luna

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/geniza.html

Katz (The base form as Katz derives from a fused form or acronym of "kohen tsedek" meaning a priest, or literally a priest of righteousness!)

Ancient rolls and charters of Germany Bernardus Cattus zu Hamburg in the year 1252, and in 1355, that of Catharina Katz of Gamshurst, Achern.

https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Katz

We have documentation (copy of DL) proving her Mundane Surname is Katz.

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-19 10:39:42
She can be <Zafira Katz> using the legal name allowance, but as per SENA PN.1.B.2.b.3 (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN1B2b3): "In many languages, bynames of relationship can be formed from attested given names. The specific pattern used to form the byname must be found in the language of the elements used to form it."

The byname is <bint X>, and the whole phrase must be in the same language that uses <bint> as a relationship term.

Alys Mackyntoich (Blue Tyger) at 2014-07-21 16:27:09
Also, for <bint Katz> to work, <Katz> would have to be a given name. I agree with Orle that <Zafira Katz> fits the current documentation best.

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-24 15:06:53
If Katz were a given name, I could provide support for combining an Arabic patronymic particle with a Hebrew given name. But it is a Hebrew byname, in fact a Hebrew acronym byname.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:28:07
Is there documentation for using the Arabic "bint" in a Jewish patronymic? If so, we should be shown it here. Agree that a patronymic is normally formed from the father's given name, so "Katz" must be documented as one.

Haakon Bjornsson (Gold Axe) at 2014-07-31 23:18:02
From the 12/10 LOAR Rahil bint Haroun. via Trimaris
Submitted as Rahil bat Haroun, this submission requested that we consider the combination of Hebrew and Arabic in a single name phrase: bat Haroun combines Hebrew bat with Arabic Haroun. The fully Hebrew version would be bat Aharon; the fully Arabic version would be bint Haroun. While it is certainly true that there is evidence that the Jewish community in Cairo recorded their names both in Arabic and Hebrew, commenters could not find clear examples that combined Hebrew and Arabic in a single phrase. This problem is, in fairness, made difficult by the fact that the patronymic particles are often recorded only as the abbreviation b, which could represent either the Hebrew or Arabic form. However, barring such evidence, we cannot register this combination as submitted. The submitter allowed the change of the patronymic particle to bint; we have made that change. It would also be registerable as bat Aharon, the Hebrew form of the same name.

Juetta Copin at 2014-08-01 09:28:43
Perhaps the submitter would be interested in a name meaning "daughter of So-and-so the Kohen."

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-07-18 15:05:15
We don't allow comma-shaped gouttes. They need to have wavy tails. See the Cover Letter 03/2013 (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/03/13-03cl.html#5) This is a feather inverted.

This is also marshalling as per SENA A.6.F.2.c (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A6F2c).

Simeon ben Iucef de Alcacar at 2014-07-21 09:01:34
Agreed, this is marshalled.

Juetta Copin at 2014-07-21 12:00:35
What she said, plus I don't know how to blazoned the arrangement of the gouttes.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-07-31 15:29:18
Agree that this is marshalling by our rules. When resubmitting, the client's artist should read our rules about the emblazoning of gouts.


Yours in Service,

Lord Collyne Greymoire

Lymphad Herald of the Kingdom of Trimaris


OSCAR counts 21 Names, 1 Name Change, 1 Household Name, 1 Order Name, 1 Heraldic Title, 23 Devices and 3 Badges. There are a total of 51 items submitted on this letter.