OSCAR Kingdoms: Trimaris Internal Letters

[ TRIMARIS Home | Trimaris Heraldry | Trimaris Submissions ]
[Æth|AnT|Anst|Arte|Aten|Atla|Avac|Calo|Drac|Eald|East|Glea|Loch|Meri|Midd|Nort|Outl]


TRIMARIS Home
Trimaris Heraldry
Trimaris Submissions

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

Actively
Commenting
only:
Include LoI Text:
Include Comments:
Type:

Trimaris ILoI dated 2014-02-16

Greetings unto the Heralds of Trimaris and the Known World. I wish to thank all the groups that comment and helped with every ILOI.

I do appreciate all the assistance I receive. This job can be a little frantic at times and I grateful for all your help! If you have any suggestions please email them to me directly at ristard.mac.iomhair@gmail.com.

This letter will be open for comment until March 30th 2014. You can submit your commentary via OSCAR or through a private email. If you have any questions on any of the submissions below please do not hesitate to ask.

I thank you in advance for your commentary and help.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-03-16 17:01:38
Comments under my name on this letter are the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoimhin McKee, TBD Herald, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Azrà bint Selçuk -New Name & New Device

Quarterly argent and azure, a two headed eagle sable .

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Azrà: Ibn Khallikan's Biographical Dictionary, Volume 1, Page 615.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hMOj5-wWtC8C&pg=PA615&dq=%22azra%22#v=onepage&q=%22azra%22&f=false

Shâhanshâh had a daughter, named Azrà, who founded the college at Damascus which is called after her the Azrawiya:....

bint: Patronym meaning Daughter.

Selçuk: Sixteenth-Century Turkish Names Ursula Whitcher http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ursula/ottoman/feminine.html

Muslim Women names: Selçuk

Correction (2014-Feb-16 10:02:30): Please ignore this name submission... This was on our November internal letter and has been decided on and will be on our next external letter to Laurel.

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-03-14 08:40:58
The name is on the February 2014 Trimaris LoI.

Device Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-02-16 11:10:48
Conflict: Erminois, an eagle displayed within a bordure sable. [Friedrich Eric Helmut von Rheinhausen, LOAR 11/1994] There's one difference for the field. "There is no difference for the number of heads on the eagle." [Ulric of York, LOAR 11/2005]

Blazon-fu: Quarterly argent and azure, a two headed eagle and a bordure sable.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-02-17 02:36:19
I agree with Gunnvor's reblazon and conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-03-16 17:02:52
What she said.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-02-17 14:32:57
If you charged something on the eagle's breast, say, a silver crescent etc., it would clear the conflict by adding another charge group. Just a suggestion.

Etienne Le Mons (Vexillum) at 2014-03-13 19:45:10
Agree with the conflict call.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-03-14 08:38:39
The barony of Nordskogen in Midrealm was the last known SCA location found for Friedrich Eric Helmut von Rheinhausen. The submitter might inquire with that group to see if permission to conflict is possible.

http://www.nordskogen.northshield.org/officers.html

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-03-15 03:10:04
Baron Friedrich is still active. I'm friends with his wife on FB if that would help facilitate reaching him for permission to conflict.


2: Kaelon the Red -New Name & New Device

Gules, two wyverns addorsed on a chief argent a dragon's head couped gules within a bordure dovetailed counterchanged.

No major changes.
Meaning (the Red) most important.

Kaelon: The given name was documented from Ó Corráin and Maguire (Irish Names, s.n. Cáelán) who show it was a masculine name, stating "As well as being a secular name, this name was borne by two saints, St. Cáelán whose feast-day is 30 June, and St. Cáelán of Inis Celtra (Holy Island on Lough Derg), whose feast-day is 29 July."

the Red: <the Red> is a lingua anglica translation of the Gaelic byname "Ruadh" The descriptive ruadh also appears in O'Brien

(op. cit. at http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Ruadh.shtml)

as a descriptive meaning "red" probably referring to hair color with a standard middle Irish form of ruad and early modern Irish form of ruadh.

Woulfe (p. 665 s.n. Ruad.) gives the meaning of this byname as "red, red-haired".

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-02-17 02:02:59
What evidence is there for a pattern of spelling Gaelic names with a K-, or -on?

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-02-17 02:37:14
None. "K" is not a letter in the Gaelic alphabet.

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-02-17 02:41:13
The lingua anglica translation of <Ruadh> is <Red>, not <the Red>: the Gaelic byname does not include the definite article.

If he'd like the article, then it would be better to document the byname as a lingua anglica form of <le Rede>, dated to 1220 in R&W s.n. Read.

ffride wlffsdotter (Goutte d'Eau) at 2014-02-17 21:32:14
If the submitter has their heart set on a name beginning with a K, why not go via the late-period English bynames as personal names route, with one of:
<William Kalinn> christened 1645, England. Batch no. C13062-2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKFS-VN5
<Wyllyam Kawlyn> married 1579, England. Batch no. M15305-1
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NXBY-Y55
<Brigit Kyline> christened 1599, England. Batch no. C03250-2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQTM-2R3

None of them are that close to Kaelon, but you never know.

Alys Mackyntoich (Eastern Crown) at 2014-02-26 22:39:19
Some other options from the Family Search Historical Records:

Kalin Pakie Or Pakye; Female; Christening; 26 Nov 1563; SUTTERTON, LINCOLN, ENGLAND; Batch: P00608-1
Kalam Dederige; Male; Marriage; 20 Sep 1597; Saint Thomas, Dudley, Worcester, England; Batch: M04014-5
But, if the submitter wants a Gaelic given name, then <Cáelán> based on the saint's name is the closest.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2014-03-14 09:02:07
Kaelon appears to be a modern name from the searches I have done so far.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-03-16 16:56:11
Incorrect documentation: O'C&M's entry has the header "CÁELÁN: CAOLÁN" and says nothing about the submitted spelling. Not surprising, as Irish doesn't use the letter "k". The lingua Anglica form of the surname should be fine. As submitted, this looks more like a name from a fantasy movie or video game than one from a historical document.

Device Comments:

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-02-17 02:39:58
Reblazon: "Gules, two wyverns erect addorsed and on a chief argent, a dragon's head affronty gules, overall a bordure dovetailed counterchanged".

The 10/1996 LoAR notes:

This is also being returned for the counterchanging of the bordure over the chief. There have been several previous rulings that state we do not counterchange bordures over ordinaries.
However, precedent from 2001 affirmed on the 09/2008 LoAR states:
Precedent, from the July 2001 LoAR, says that counterchanging a bordure over an ordinary is a step from period practice: "Given that we allow other peripherals to be counterchanged across an ordinary, we see no reason to disallow it here [a bordure counterchanged over a pile]. However, this practice is not good style and therefore counts as a [step from period practice]." As there is only the one step from period practice, we can register this device.
Ahah, here from the 10/2013 LoAR:
There is a step from period practice for counterchanging the bordure over a chief.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-02-17 10:04:56
Is there a SFPP for the Chinese dragon head??

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Schwarzdrachen) at 2014-02-18 02:39:16
What makes this dragon head Chinese?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2014-02-18 11:59:30
Horns and tentacles.

1: Image 1

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2014-02-21 20:52:45
I would call the head caboshed.

The horns look more like ears to me.

Etienne Le Mons (Vexillum) at 2014-03-13 19:36:16
Appears clear from conflict. I agree with the SFPP for the bordure. If this is considered a Chinese dragon's head and an additional SFPP, that would be an issue.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2014-03-16 17:00:02
A dragon's head faces to dexter by default: this one is better blazoned as "a dragon's head cabossed" or "a dragon's face" or the like. The wyverns would be better served by elongating them to fill their spaces. One SFPP for the counterchanged bordure. No conflicts found. How much better this would look if it were "Per fess gules and argent, two wyverns addorsed and a dragon's face within a bordure dovetailed counterchanged"!

1: Image 1


Yours In Service,

Ristard mac Iomhair


OSCAR counts 2 Names and 2 Devices. There are a total of 4 items submitted on this letter.