Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 07:39:05
[There's a summary at the end.]

There are multiple problems with this as documented.

• You can not combine elements from more than two regional naming groups per SENA PN2C2b. This combines English/Welsh, French, and Iberian.
• You can not combine languages in a single name phrase (unless we can document such combinations in period) per SENA PN1B1. As documented this combines the Spanish de with French Crécy
• You need to state what the Encyclopedia Britannicasays about Crécy. The fact that Crécy is found in the Encyclopedia Britannica may show that it existed in period but it almost certainly doesn't support it as a period spelling.

Acelina is found in DMNES as the Latin nominative Acelina as the Latin nominative in 1189 in England and c1050 in France. Aceline is dated to 1313 in Old French. Acelina should still be the Latin nominative of the name in the 14th C.

de Crecy is dated to "1384, 14th C, 1438" in Aryanhwy merch Catmael, "DRAFT: Bynames in Medieval France" (https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/french...) dates de Crecy; the source is Morlet Picardie. The same article dates de Creci to 1292; the source Hercule, Geraud, Paris sous Philippe-le-Bel: d'après des documents originaux et notamment d'apraès un manuscript contenant Le Rôle de la taille imposèe sur les habitants de Paris en 1292.

Submitted as Acelina de Cr_é_cy, we have dropped the accent to match the available documentation.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 07:47:14
No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:13:38
Raised is not a heraldic term; did the submitter intend rising? These birds are in trian aspect and probably need to be redrawn so you're not seeing their backs.

No conflicts found regardless of the cormorants posture.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:04:52
I would modify the first line to "The English surname..."

Don't forget to include screenshots for the three -streme examples as the cited website is not an Appendix H source. It is a good source, and is fine to cite, you just need copies of the pages.

You need to provide the url for Juliana's article (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/EnglishCompoundPlacena...). It is an Appendix H source so you don't need a copy of it.

Yes, the construction seems reasonable.

No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:24:04
We don't blazon the number of traits in barry wavy. Typo: wreaths. So,

Barry wavy argent and azure, on a chief vert a castle between two laurel wreaths Or

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-13 22:10:11
I also found no conflicts

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:04:30
For authenticity, since the given name is not Latinized, I'd expect the byname to appear first (at least in Hungarian). I would also expect the name to be in a single language, either Hungarian or Czech/Slovak. Hungarian and North Slavic names (including Czech/Slovak) can be combined when dated within 300 years per SENA Appendix C.

Prior registration is not precedent. Only what was said when those names were registered is precedent.

Kovács is not a feminine name in "Hungarian Feminine Names", it is the header that given names were found under in Kázmér. It is an occupational byname in "Hungarian Names 101", but it is the header form in Kázmér, not the period spelling. To the best of my knowledge, Hungarian does not form matronymics by adding -ova (as Russian does).

Prior registrations of Drahomira have been without comment, so aren't really useful. As she is not a saint, simply the mother of one, the name is may unregisterable without additional documentation. The 2002 registration used the same documentation that the submitter uses here; nothing appears to have been added in commentary. I'm not finding the name prior to the 19th C at Ancestry and the 20th C at FamilySearch. However, Google books to the rescue. Here's a period (1541) citation:

Drahomira is mentioned in Kronyka Czeská cum gracia et priuilegio Regie Maiestatis by Václav Hájek z Libočan (https://books.google.com/books?...). It is likely registerable as a literary name at the very least.

I'd send the name up with the 1541 documentation in addition to the Catholic Encyclopedia and ask for help. I'd recommend checking to see if the submitter is more interested in an authentic name or the name as submitted. I suspect an authentic name is going to require major changes, which they may not be happy with.

No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:37:43
Typo: contourny (no e, one u). A trimount has to be in base. Normally we'd blazon "a pale issuant from" but with the pale being charged I'm not sure that's the case. Maybe something like:

Argent, on a pale raguly sable issuant from a trimount gules a wolf contourny argent

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-13 22:32:25
I also found no conflicts

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:46:04
Typo: argent (no y)

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-07-27 08:57:55
Conflict with Judith Jehana di Ettore (6/1990, West), Per bend sinister gules and sable, a fox rampant to sinister argent. There is a DC for fieldlessness but no difference between a fox and a wolf.

Conflict with Dorcas Dorcadas (2/1971, West; reblazzoned 5/2010), Sable, a three-headed hound rampant contourny, one head reguardant, argent. There is a DC for fieldlessness but nothing for the type of dog nor for the number of heads (e.g., [Robert of Wolford, 04/2011, R-An Tir] and [Alastar Acton, 12/2017, R-Middle]).

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 13:17:21
The Nordic Names wiki is not a usable site for our purposes, though Lena Peterson is - her work is on the no-photocopy list in Appendix H of the Admin Handbook. Either cite that (http://urn.kb.se/resolve?...) or Gunnvǫr silfrahárr's translation at http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/FTP_Files/NordisktRunnamns....

I doubt that Bloodyaxe will work; however, Bloodaxe is the lingual Societatis form of blóðøx. Cite Geirr Bassi, not the wiki.

The documentation I recommend for the LoI:

Drengr is a masculine Old Norse name found in Gunnvǫr silfrahárr's "Old Norse Men's Names" (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#...) where it is noted as being found in this spelling in Old West Norse and also common in West Scandinavia from the 1300s onward.

Bloodaxe is the lingua Societatis form of blóðøx, found as byname in Geirr Bassi. The submitter would prefer Bloodyaxe if that can be documented.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:19:16
Prior registration is not precedent. What was said at the time of registration is precedent. In this case, Eyfura Eydisardottir was registered without comment so no precedent was set.

Gunnvǫ silfrahárr, "Old Norse Women's Names" (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml) does list Eyfura, noting:

For the first element Ey- see above. The second element -fura may be related to the Old Icelandic word fura, "fir-tree". The name Eyfura appears in the legendary saga Orvar-Odds saga, c. 1250, as the mother of Angantyr.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 13:23:04
Those are awful short handles on the tridents. I wonder if they'd be better blazoned as demi-tridents? They're not trident heads because there is a handle.

That is also a very strange melusine - the tails lack flukes and there seem to be flukes growing out of its back. If this is a period depiction, it would be wise to cite the source.

For conflict checkers, no difference is granted between a melusine and a mermaid (or merman).

No conflicts found.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-13 23:20:44
Agree that the source of this melusine would be helpful.

These look like inverted Salmon spears...

http://heraldicart.org/salmon-spear/...

which include the cylindrical handle holder.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:23:08
This does not run into the super-protection of the badge for the Red Crescent as that is actually a decrescent, not a crescent.

Typo: Or should be capitalized.

No conflicts found.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-14 20:28:21
So, for the record...

Per bend argent and gules, a crescent gules and a tulip blossom Or.

I also found no conflicts

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:27:04
Typo: there is no e in contourny.

The Admin Handbook requires a summary of prior returns. In this case:

The submitter's prior device, Argent, three tortoises statant in annulo within a bordure vert, was returned on the August 2019 LoAR as three tortoises cannot be in annulo.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-14 21:15:42
This appears to address the reason for return.

I also found no conflicts

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:32:42
Please add to the LoI (yes, I checked the name form):

The submitter's name is on Trimaris's July LoI. They allow the creation of a holding name if necessary.

Nest verch Gwilim (Crane) at 2023-08-14 11:55:14
Our most recent precedent on tusks states that:

"Given the lack of identifying features between a tusk and a drinking horn, and absent documentation otherwise, we will cease further registration of tusks of any kind effective as of the January 2018 decision meeting." [Bowen Doyle, 2017/07, A-An Tir].

Image 1 shows the arms of Gaudart from Armorial de Waignart, 1600-1631 French (France, Abbeville, Bibliothèque municipale, 108), https://www.armarium-hautsdefrance.fr/document/20687, f. 1029r. According to Wikipedia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Gaudart_(1588-1634)) the charges on the bend in the arms of Gaudart are boar's tusks (défenses de sanglier).

This should be enough evidence to at least warrant sending this up for external commentary.

Sláine báen Ronán (Diademe) at 2023-08-14 21:38:12
I had no clue what those were...my 1st thought was some sort of long grass??

And is no one else seeing a Preppy Collared Shirt logo? (Yes it was contourny, but still...) Anyone?

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:34:21
Typo: there is no e in contourny.

This does not run into the super-protection of the badge for the Red Crescent as that is actually a decrescent, not a crescent.

No conflicts found.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-08-12 16:02:21
Since overall charges lie on the field and not the on the primary charge, can we even have an overall charge in a badge with no field?

This may also be "barely overall". If I reverse the order of the charges, we can still tell that there's a winged horse there. but there's no way to tell if it's a whole pegasus or a demi-pegasus (Image #1).

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-08-12 16:04:28
Since <víss> is the strong masculine nominative of this adjective, we need to change it just a smidgen to use the strong feminine nominative instead, <vís>.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-17 13:00:57
Unless you are using the short form citation from AH Appendix H, you need to include the title and author of sources. The first citation can use the short form, Lind Supplemental, without including the title. The second source is "Old Norse Women's Names" by Gunnvǫr silfrahárr.

You need to include what the sources say about a name element (unless it is obvious from the title). Lind notes Svala should perhaps be taken as a byname and doesn't, as far as I can tell, actually date the name. You are perhaps better off just citing Gunnvǫr's article.

Svala is found "Old Norse Women's Names" by Gunnvǫr silfrahárr, http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml, where it is noted " This name is taken from the bird, "swallow". May occur in the Anglo-Scandinavian name Swale (1185). Found as a woman's proper name in Bandamanna saga.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-04 06:33:25
Portions of the PDFs are unreadable due to the way they are highlighted. The relevant portions of the article should be saved as images rather than PDFs which do not display correctly. Also, it would be useful to underline or circle the relevant portion.

The documentation needs to be summarized, not simply included as an attachment.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-04 06:40:30
Wickenden shows only the earliest example found of each spelling. Unless authenticity is requested, the assumption is that the spelling is valid throughout period and thus any elements found in the source can be combined without temporal issue. Relevant precedent (07/2017 CL): "Because only the earliest date is given for most names, we generally give submitters the benefit of the doubt that name elements found in the Dictionary are temporally compatible."

For the grammar section, you need to quote or summarize the relevant section, not just link to it. I can't figure out which section is intended here - falconer doesn't seem to fall into the descriptive byname category. I wonder if the intended reference is to this paragraph:

Adjectival bynames consist, in turn, of two sub-categories. There are numerous cases of simply adding a common adjective onto a given name, as in: Korotkii/Korotkaia ("short"), Dorogoi/Dorogaia ("dear"), Pervoi/Pervaia ("first"), Beloi/Belaia ("white"), Shirokii/Shirokaia ("wide"), or Krasnyi/Krasnaia ("red"). The adjective, of course, has to agree with the gender of the subject (the standard masculine adjectival endings are -oi/-yi/-ii, while the feminine ones are -aia/-iaia). It is also possible (although rare) for this byname to appear in the genitive case (just like type #3 masculine patronymics). To become genitive, masculine adjectives drop their endings (-oi, -ii, or -yi) and replace them with -ego or -ogo4 while feminine adjectives drop their endings and add an -oi or -ei.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2023-08-12 16:06:05
Let's tweak the blazon a bit: Argent, on a rose azure barbed and seeded gules, a falcon per bend volant argent, a bordure wavy azure semy of hawk's bells argent

Alys Mackyntoich (Ogress) at 2023-08-12 11:01:44
The FamilySearch record for de Navarre is not one of the usable ones, as it has neither a valid Batch number nor a viewable image.

I know the submitter wants Greek, but right now the best I can do is get this exact name entirely in French:

Zoe is a French literary name found in Summaire de chroniques, contenans les vies, gestes et cas fortuitz, de tous les empereurs Deurope, depuis Jules Cesar, jusques a Maximilian dernier decede by Giovanni Battista Egnazio, translated into French by Geofroy Tory de Bourges and published in French in 1529 (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1157936/f2...?...) (images below)

de Navarre - Navarre appears as an unmarked locative surname in "Bynames in Medieval France" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/french...) at p. 143 s.n. Navarre, dated to 1292 and 1421; locatives in French can be marked or unmarked per Appendix A. Therefore, this supports de Navarre.

The change in language is not a "change" by precedent: "A change in language is generally considered a major change, which the submitter does not allow. However, a "change" that does not change the spelling of the name cannot be a major change, or even a minor change." [Lucian Artz, 11/2011 LoAR, A-Atlantia]

Therefore, I suggest sending this up documented in French and asking for the College's assistance to document it to the submitter's requested time period and language.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-17 15:16:36
No conflicts found.

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (Palimpsest) at 2023-08-02 14:35:34
This is not a new device change, it is a new augmentation change. Select Augmentation of Arms from the drop-down menu and then check the box "This is a change".

No conflicts found other than their current augmentation, which is not an issue.