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Outlands LoP dated 2015-11-11

Unto the Outlands College of Heralds, our respected friends and colleagues who give freely of their time to provide commentary, and all others who come by these letters, on this 10th day of November, A.S. L (2015 CE), does Lord Gauvain Eisenbein send greetings on behalf of Baron Randal Carrick, White Stag Principal Herald.

Here follows the Kingdom of the Outlands' Letter of Presentation for October, 2015.

Anyone may comment upon the items found herein, and e-mail commentary to the herald's commentary list is encouraged. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome. Please have comments on items contained herein to Rampart Herald by November 17th, 2015, for the decision meeting on November 18th, 2015. As a reminder, the College of Arms requests commentary on all items, including appeals.

1: Conrad von Zollern and Katelin de Irlande -Resub Household Name

OSCAR finds the name (Conrad von Zollern) registered exactly as it appears in March of 2002, via the Outlands.
OSCAR finds the name (Katelin de Irlande) registered exactly as it appears in May of 2008, via Artemisia.

Abbatia Porta Leonis

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Language ("Abbey of Lions Gate" in Latin) most important.
Culture ("Abbey of Lions Gate" in Latin) most important.
Meaning ("Abbey of Lions Gate" in Latin) most important.

Resubmission from 09/2011

Conrad von Zollern and Katelin de Irlande. New Household Name, Priory of the Lion of the Abbey of Saint David. Submitters documented the construction of the household name using Project Ordensnamen, by Meradudd Cethin, and included what may be the defining instance of "Priory of" as a household designator. There are 2 problems with this. First, Laurel noted that name patters for order names are not appropriate for household names on the September 2009 LoAR (, returning the name House Silver Talon (via Aethelmearc): "To be a house name, this must be justified as an inn sign name. It can't be based on the pattern for an order, as it's not an order. The concept is at some level fine; Margaret's "Comparison of Inn/Shop/House names found London 1473-1600 with those found in the ten shires surrounding London in 1636" ( has <Eagles foote> before 1600. Mari's "English Sign Names From 17th Century Tradesman's Tokens" ( has <Golden Leg>. That's probably close enough to give <talon> the benefit of the doubt..." Secondly, the designator "Priory of" makes no sense in combination with "Abbey of", and would not have been used in period. While submitters allow changes, we have no idea how to rescue this particular construction.

Abbatia - Latin Translation of English word `abbey'

Abbey is dated in this spelling to 1250 in the OED. Household designators are based on groups of people in period. An abbey is place where a group of people lives together. The August 2008 LoAR (v. Brockore Abbey, Canton of) noted: ... Siren provided the following examples of the pattern place name + abbey, from Chersey abbey 1538, Pypwell Abbey 1511, Myssenden Abbey 1511, Meryvall Abbey 1511, Bardmonseye Abbaye 17 Edward II. Margaret Makafee also provides some examples, from the Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse,, including the following: Kenelworthe abbey c. 1450, Becc abbey 15th C, seynt Ede abbey undated. [Brockore Abbey, Canton of; Aug. 2008] Rising Waters, Barony of was registered Oct. 1992 via the Middle. Allows adding/deleting a word like "de" or "the" or changing language when the change is small

Porta - Latin Translation of English word `gate'

Leonis - Latin Translation of English word `lion'

Precedent states that "Abbeys are clearly named for placenames and for their patron saints." [Monique Marie Sauniere, Household name Flaxen Abbey, 9/2011 LoAR, R-Caid]

The Lion's Gate is one of the seven Gates in the Walls of Old Jerusalem. The Lions' Gate is located on the north-east walls of the old city of Jerusalem, leading to the Via Dolorosa.

Porta Leoni is also an ancient Roman gate in Verona, northern Italy.

Consulting Herald: Katelin de Irlande (Hawk's Hollow)

2: Dagun of Rio de las Animas -Resub Name & Resub Device

Per fess azure and vert, a fret Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.

[Dagun] - St. Gabriel's List Mongolian Naming Practices

[of Rio de las Animas] - A place name.

If the above place name is not possible in this culture, then he would like Taijut from Mongolian Naming Practices.

The previous submission, Dagun Tngri, was returned on the July LoR ( with the following: {The name is returned for presumption. Tngri means "of heavenly beings" and a reference to gods; giving the implication of Dagun being a god which is presumption and disallowed by SENA (}

Consulting Herald: Geua filia Guy (Rio de Las Animas)

The previous submission, Azure, a fret Or, was returned on the July LoR ( with the following: {The device is returned for numerous conflicts and lack of name to send up with it.}.

Thus ends the extra-super-sparse October 2015 Letter of Presentation. I hear there are a bunch of submissions from Battlemoor, but they haven't made it to me yet.

In Service,

Gauvain Eisenbein

Castle Herald

OSCAR counts 1 Name, 1 Household Name and 1 Device. There are a total of 3 items submitted on this letter.

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