SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
Sub Status



Create Account

MAIL ME my password.


[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Outlands LoI dated 2015-08-31

From the Office of Rampart Herald

THL Khalidah bint Yahya'a (Nicole Riviezzo)

Unto the Sovereigns and members of the College of Arms of the Society, does Khalidah bint Yahya'a, Rampart Herald send her greetings.

What follows is the August 2015 Letter of Intent for the Kingdom of the Outlands.

I would like to thank ffride wlffsdotter, Green Anchor, Ogress, Kolosvari Arpadne Julia, Lions Heart, Skraeling Althing, and all of the heralds who were kind enough to contribute comments on OSCAR.

It is my intent to register this August the following items from the Outlands' College of Heralds.

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

1: Dairenn of Galway - New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2012, via the Outlands

Darri skytta

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Culture (Viking) most important.

[Darri] - from Geirr Bassi

Originally submitted as Darri Bowmaster but was changed - with submitter's involvement and approval - after internal commentors questioned the use of 'Bowmaster' with Viking and authenticity along with the possibility of presumption. Submitter also withdrew the authenticity request.

Additional Documentation by ffride wlffsdotter:

SMP sn. Darre ( mentions <Darri> in NecrLund p. 72. NecrLund is Necrologium Lundense, and according to the Lund University Library ( it is a Memoriale dealing with individuals between 1074 to 1316.

byname <skyti> (roughly: skey-ti) meaning "marksman, archer". Lind Personbinamn col. 336 sn. skyti gives literary examples. sn. skytta has the same meaning, but it is a later spelling, with examples from Diplomataria. eg. <Olaus skytta> 1364, <Ingimar skyttæ> 1376, <Iens skytthe> 1489

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

2: Danielle de la Rochelle - New Name & New Device

Per pale azure and argent, on a mullet fimbriated a mullet counterchanged

Sound most important.


de la Rochelle:

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

3: Dearbháil inghean Léoid - New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2007, via the Outlands

(Fieldless) a fox's mask per pale argent and purpure

The Original Emblazon: New art was provided to Kingdom, by the submitting herald, after commentors noted blazoning issues with the multicolored tufting. (The new color emblazon was done with marker - rather than computer rendered like previous emblazon - then significantly color adjusted as it scanned blue.)

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

4: Ealusaid of Ardrenk - New Name & New Device

Per chevron embattled argent and vert, seven maple leaves vert and a squirrel sejant erect argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language (Manx Gaelic) most important.
Culture (Manx Gaelic) most important.
Meaning most important.

[Ealusaid] - "Scottish Gaelic Given Names: For Women" Sharon L. Krossa ( dates Ealusaid as late medieval between 1401 and 1600.

[na] - Gaelic "the", as in "of the", several forms documented in "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Masculine Descriptive Bynames" Kathleen M. O'Brien (

[Ardrenk] - from Isle of Man manorial rolls 1511-1515: "Treen of <Ardrenk> - The Forester's Lodge." ( (

Originally submitted as <Ealusaid na Ardrenk> but was changed by Kingdom, with submitter's approval, to <Ealusaid of Ardrenk> based on the provided documentation for <Ardrenk>.

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

5: Erchambaut le Breton - New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound (see below) most important.
Language (French) most important.
Culture (French) most important.

Original name choice was "Arianhod", which we [the submitter/submitting herald] can't find documentation of use in SCA time period.

[Erchambaut le Breton] -

[le Breton] -

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

6: Gabriela Wendin - Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2006, via the Outlands

Quarterly azure and vert, a G clef between three pheons inverted Or

The previous submission, Quarterly azure and vert, a G-clef Or, was returned on the January 2015 LoAR ( with the following: {his device is returned for using a design that consists of only an abstract symbol. SENA A3E3 states "Likewise, designs that consist only of letters or other abstract symbols...will not be registered." Although the G clef in this depiction appears to match one of the various period G clef symbols, it is not distinguishable from a capital letter G and thus is equivalent to trying to register a capital letter G.}

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

7: Genevieve Chastain - New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

[Genevieve] - "Late Period French Feminine Names" Aryanhwy merch Catmael (

[Chastain] - Beauchet-Filleau, Henri, "Dictionnaire historique et genealogique des familles du Poitou, Volume 2" pg. 269: <Chastain> (Francois de), Ec., sgr de Beaumont, fit aveu de ce fief en 1506 au Dorat. (

Additional Documentation provided by Skraeling Althing:

Jacques Chastain, marriage, 1647. ( There's an odd curlicue at the end of <Jacques> - not sure if that's just the ending of the name, or a scribal abbreviation for <de> or something else. (

Here's another one without <de> - Code. - Lyon, Freres de Gabiano 1593 (, imprint. (

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

8: Katelin de Irlande - New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2008, via Artemisia

(Fieldless) A double rose Or and sable barbed and seeded proper

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

9: Kat'ryna Tsaatan - New Name & New Device

Kat'ryna Tsaatan

Argent, a stag rampant azure armed and attired gules on a chief embattled azure an arrow fesswise reversed Or

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

Russian and Mongol names can be combined per SENA Appendix C

[Kat'ryna] - "Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names - Section KA" Paul Goldschmidt, ( <Kat'ryna> (f) -- var of Ekaterina

[Tsaatan] - "Mongolian Naming Practices" Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy ( <Tsaatan>/Tsaatanguud 2 ("Reindeer People" of Turkic Urianhay or Tuva)

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

10: Kolosvarj Hoyai Kristof - New Name Change & New Device Change

OSCAR NOTE: filing name should not be registered for a primary name change. It was, in in November of 2015, via the Outlands.

Purpure, a tree blasted and eradicated between two mullets argent and a ford proper

Old Item: Faolan Ó Lacháin of Galway, to be retained as an alternate name.
Old Item: Per chevron sable and gules, a chevron rompu between a decrescent moon, an increscent moon, and a wolf's head erased contourny ululant argent, to be retained as a badge.
Sound most important.

Original Documentation: c. Lingua Anglica allowance: location Hoia Baciu;, Kristof;

New Documentation provided by Kolosvari Arpadne Julia:

First, expanding the inadequate documentation summary for the given name: Kristof is a masculine name dated to 1560 and 1574 in Walraven van Nijmegen's "Hungarian Personal Names of the 16th Century" ( (It's almost certainly from Hungarian-context sources -- the Latin would be Christophorus or similar -- but you can't tell that from the article.)

I still hold that in Hungarian, Corvinus is presumptuous: it's an epithet that only ever applies to King Matthias. As I recall, it has been found as a byname in German sources, so I suppose there are stunt-doc-y ways around my objection, but I had to raise it nevertheless.

I found an article (see below) that dates the name of the mountain ridge (or vineyard) and forest outside Kolozsvár as montis Hoya vocatj in 1564. Other period mentions cited in the same article: 1582 Howaiabol ('from Howaia'), 1584 Hoiaban ('in Hoia'), 1597 az hoyay zeoleoben ('in the vineyard of Hoya'). The article doesn't identify its sources, but it appears to be taking some pains to reproduce original spellings faithfully.

The article: Lajos Asztalos, "Néhány kolozsvári helynév újabb eredeztetése" (New derivations for a few placenames of Kolozsvár), Napkút Kiadó, Budapest, 2006. (

The idea that this forest is haunted appears to be entirely modern, probably invented as a way to draw tourists looking for Dracula (in the wrong part of the world entirely, but I digress). I *think* the Romanian name is literally something like "Hoia meadow"; in any case, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with hauntedness. (I will leave arguments about the derivation and therefore meaning of Hoya to the placename-scholars like the author of the cited article. Ideas range from "silver fir" to "enclosed clearing".)

The closest I can find to "haunted" in a Hungarian name context is Szamota/Zolnai s.n. kisértet: 1467 Ambrosius Keserteth, which may mean 'spook, specter' (but may simply be a form or derivative of 'companion, accompaniment'). I certainly haven't found the concept combined with erdő "forest"; the only modifier that occurs in Kázmér is fekete 'black'. (There were places named 'Black Forest' in several counties.)

Where to go from here depends on the submitter's desires. He could be Hoyai Kristof, referencing the mountain ridge and the forest on its north side just outside Kolozsvár, or he could use a byname referring to forests in general: Erdey 'of the forest' (this spelling dated to 1439 and 1578 in Kázmér s.n. Erdei) or Erdews 'with forest: forester or landowner' (a common spelling s.n. Erdős, found throughout the 15th-16th centuries). Then there's the only slightly different derivative of the word for forest, Erdély 'Transylvania', which in period spelling is often indistinguishable from the locative adjective erdélyi 'Transylvanian'. (Some common 15-16th c. spellings s.n. Erdélyi: Erdeli, Erdely, Erdelj.)

It's also up to the submitter whether he puts the byname before or after the given name; authentic combinations include Hoyai Kristof, Christophorus Hoyai, or Christophorus de Hoya, but "Kristof Hoyai" or "Kristof de Hoya" are also registerable.

Locatives are the most common type of Hungarian surname. As you can see from my own name (and my husband's, on which it is based), Kolozsvár just needs the -i 'of, from' suffix to make it into a locative adjective and surname. However, the 'zs' spelling for the voiced /zh/ sound (like the 's' in 'measure') is post-period; before the mid-17th century, they mostly just wrote this sound as 's'. (My husband's name uses the modern spelling, but it was registered the year before Kázmér's big surname tome was published.) Period spellings under the header of Kolozsvári include 1416: Koloswari, 1445: Cluswari, 1453: Coloswary, Koloswary, 1458: Kolosvarj, 1566: Coloswary, 1575: Colosuarj, 1584: Coloswary, 1585: Colosuary, 1588: Kolosuary, 1590: Colosvari, 1591: Colosuarj.

Hungarian names with more than just two parts (given name plus byname) are very rare, unless you count women's married names (which have up to four parts: the husband's two plus the wife's two). All of the scant dozen examples I've collected over the years are basically a name and address: one of the bynames is a locative. The arrangement doesn't vary, either: in Latin, the locative comes last (1524: Barnabas Molnar de Chopak 'Barnabas Miller of Chopak'), while in Hungarian, it comes first (1585: Zikzay Lakatos Janosnak 'for John Locksmith of Zikzó'). I have two examples where both bynames look like possible locatives: 1570 Mwrgonday Gywlay Myhal 'Michael of Gyula of Morgonda' and 1590 Malamffaly Soffalj Janos 'John of Saltville of Millville' (if I'm interpreting the somewhat ambiguous period spellings correctly). This means that something like Koloswary Hoyay Kristof is probably technically OK, even though it sounds a bit odd. In Latin, I think only one of the bynames would use 'de': Cristoforus Hoyay de Koloswar, but I'd have to do quite a bit of digging to justify (or disprove) my instinct.

Instead of the Latin Corvinus, any interest in the Hungarian equivalent holló 'raven'? This was used as a byname (almost always spelled Hollo) throughout the 15th-16th centuries, by all sorts of people with no claim to fame, so it's not presumptuous. (Plus, it's not in Latin, so it can combine with Kristof rather than just Cristoforus.)

Spelling in period Hungarian was highly inconsistent and variable, so I actually wouldn't be surprised by a name that used multiple different spellings for the same sounds, or the same spelling for different sounds. (An example of the latter is Waryw, a common period spelling of Varjú 'crow'; the first 'w' is a consonant, /v/ as in 'vine', while the second 'w' is a vowel, roughly /oo/ as in 'goo'.)

I see no reason why Kolosvarj Hoyai Kristof couldn't be registered: 'i' and 'j' were still considered orthographic variants of each other, just like nowadays capital J can be written with or without a crossbar, or how Roman typefaces have 'a' while Italic ones have 'a'.

Originally submitted as Kristof Corvinus de Hoia Baciu but, after a long conversation in internal commentary, the submitter has opted to change to a suggested variation.

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

11: Logan of Logan - New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Outlands LoI of December 26, 2014 as submitted.

Sable, a sinister hand Or between three bezants one and two

Original Emblazon: Was redone by the submitting herald and provided to Kingdom after internal commentors suggested the hand should be much larger to be the primary charge rather than a co-primary.

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

12: Logan of Logan - New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Outlands LoI of December 26, 2014 as submitted.

(Fieldless) On a sinister hand Or, a gunstone

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

13: Lörinc Ötög-äke - New Name & New Device

Per fess wavy argent and azure, a bear's head erased affronty sable and a fish naiant embowed Or

No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

[Lörinc] - Major, J., "On the Medieval Hungarian Townscape": "The more surprising is the trial between <Lörinc>, son of Fülöp of Dág, and Andras. Cenki, in 1339, a year before the report on the completion of the fortifications." (

[Ötög-äke] - descriptive byname from Mongolian meaning "mother bear"

[Ötög] - middle Mongolian form of "bear": Ötög (өтөг) is an older Mongolian word for `bear' which has largely been supplanted by baavgai (баавгай) in the modern language (baabgai баабгай in Buryat). (

[-äke] - middle Mongolian form of "mother" mother: <äke>, ebei (

Additional documentation by Kolosvari Arpadne Julia:

The cited article of"Fülöp of Dág", it has modern spellings only. Lőrinc is the Hungarian form of Laurence, and it's found in late period in nearly this spelling: Walraven van Nijmegen's "Hungarian Personal Names of the 16th Century" ( dates Lo"rincs (which is his pre-Unicode workaround for Lőrincs) to 1560, and Kázmér s.n. Lőrinc has 1569 Lörincz Péter and 1596 Lörinch Andras. More typically, especially earlier, the first vowel is written as 'eu', 'ev', 'ew', or 'eo'. (There is also variation between 'i', 'y', and 'e' in the second syllable, and the final /ts/ sound is rendered variously as 'ch' or 'cz', with occasional examples with 'c', 'cs', 'tz', or even 'sz'.) In Fehértói, most of the citations are under Laurencius, the Latin form of the name (which is very likely what appears in the legal records referenced in the cited article), but she also has Leurench 13c and 1211 and Leurenc 1240 s.n. Leurench.

Additional documentation from Wharrow, the submitting herald:

1. St Gabriel #3375 ( specifically mentions "ötege" and "ötöge" as words for "bear", and goes on to mention that they could plausibly be used as elements in a period Mongol male name:

We were able to find a mid-14th century word <o"tege> 'bear' in the

Ilkhanate. <O"tege> and a variant spelling <o"to"ge> 'bear, old man'

were also recorded in Chinese and Uighur scripts in other parts of the

Mongol Empire (here the /o"/ represents a sound similar to the German

o-umlaut, the vowel you get by pronouncing the /e/ in <let> with your

lips positioned to pronounce <o> as in <over>). [2, 3] Because bears

were a totem animal for some Mongol groups, their "real" name was

considered too sacred to speak and they were referred to by another

name--in this case a name related to <o"to"ge> (also <o"to"gu"> or

<o"tegu">) 'old man' or 'elder'. [4]


One of the following names would be plausible for an ethnic Mongol man

in your period (<O"to"ge> may be substituted for <O"tege>, and/or

<Boro> for <Bora>):

<Bora O"tege> 'Gray Bear'

<O"tege Bora> 'Bear the Gray'

<O"tege Ebu"gen> 'Bear the Old Man'

<O"tegedei Bora> 'The Bear the Gray'

2. "ON SOME MONGOLIAN NAMES OF WILD BEASTS", NICHOLAS POPPE, Central Asiatic Journal, Vol. 9, No. 3 (September 1964), pp. 161-174

This article states that "ötege" was used in Middle Mongolian as "bear". See image of page 170 (

3. "From animal to name, remarks on the semantics of Middle Mongolian personal names", Volker Rybatzki, University of Helsinki

This academic paper mentions "Ötöge 'bear'" in a group of Middle Mongolian totemic names. See image of page 336 (

The submitter as stated to me that he is fine with the minor changes of "äke" to "eke" and "Ötög" to "Ötöge", and that either "Ötöge Eke" or "Eke Ötöge" would be acceptable as a surname for him, with his preference being for the former.

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

14: Lörinc Ötög-äke - New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) Two fish embowed respectant gules, maintaining between their tails a pearl argent

Consulting Herald: Warenus de Fulmere

This item was on the 11-2015 LoAR

15: Olivia Solís de Luján - New Name & New Device

Purpure, a triquetra within six hearts in annulo, points to center, argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (Spanish culture/language; family names) most important.
Culture (Spanish culture/language; family names) most important.

Documentation cleaned up and provided by Ogress:

Olivia is a female given name found in "Names from Sixteenth Century Venice" by Juliana de Luna (

Italian can be combined with Spanish per Appendix C of SENA.

Solis is a Spanish surname found in the Family Search Historical Records:

Angela Solis De Salsedo; Female; Christening; 13 May 1591; Santiago Apostol, Valladolid, Valladolid, Spain; Batch: C87105-2 (

Andres Solis; Male; Christening; 17 Jun 1563; San Andrés, Valladolid, Valladolid, Spain; Batch: C87100-1 (

de Lujan is also found in 16th cen Spain in Family Search:

Maria De Lujan; Marriage; 24 Sep 1584; El Salvador, Valladolid, Valladolid, Spain; Batch: M87122-7 (

Jacinta Diez De Lujan; Female; Christening; 10 Nov 1597; SANTA CRUZ, MEDINA DE RIOSECO, VALLADOLID, SPAIN; Batch: C87262-2 (

Thus ends the August 2015 Letter of Intent.

In Service,

THL Khalidah bint Yahya'a

Rampart Herald

OSCAR counts 7 New Names, 1 New Name Change, 1 New Alternate Name, 6 New Devices, 1 New Device Change and 4 New Badges. These 20 items are chargeable, Laurel should receive $60 for them. OSCAR counts 1 Resub Device. This item is not chargeable. There are a total of 21 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos