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Outlands LoP dated 2012-02-10

Greetings!



This is a test of the Outlands Internal Commentary System. This is only a test. We are still accepting commentary on the January and February Letters of Presentation on the Outlands-heralds@yahoogroups.com and o-commentary@yahoogroups.com mailing lists for the time being.

1: Alysandir Keyth -New Name & New Device

Argent, a fox couchant regardant, on a chief gules three pallets Or

No major changes.
Culture (14th Century Scottish) most important.

[Alysandir] - '13th & 14th Century Scottish Names' by Symon Freser of Lovat. Revised 18 Dec 2000 by Arval Benicoeur with direction from the Academy of Saint Gabriel. (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/symonFreser/scottish14/scottish14_given.html)

[Keyth] - '13th & 14th Century Scottish Names' by Symon Freser of Lovat. Revised 18 Dec 2000 by Arval Benicoeur with direction from the Academy of Saint Gabriel. (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/symonFreser/scottish14/scottish14_sur.html)


2: Andrew von Otelingen -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2009, via the Outlands

Quarterly azure and argent, a bordure counterchanged.


3: Caerthe, Barony of -Resub Order Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in January of 1973, via Laurel

Order of the Green Tree of Caerthe

Meaning most important.

Submitter's previous submission, Order of the Sapling of Caerthe, was returned on the June 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/06/09-06lar.html) stating:

This is returned for lack of documentation that it follows patterns of period order names. The only possible meta-pattern from the August 2005 Cover Letter that this order name could follow is the heraldic charge meta-pattern: "orders named for heraldic charges or for items that, while not found in period as heraldic charges, may be used as heraldic charges." While there are some very early registration of saplings in SCA armory, there have been none since Laurel ruled on the March 1994 Cover Letter that baby flora are not generally registerable. A sapling is a baby tree, and hence falls under this stricture, so this order name is not registerable under the heraldic charge meta-pattern.

Submitter's previous submission, Order of the Arbor of Caerthe, was returned on the September 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-08-lop/1109-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for lack of documentation of the order name construction. Submitter should consult Medieval Secular Order Names by Juliana de Luna (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/order/new/) and document each element of the name accordingly before re-submitting.

Naming practice per article, 'Medieval Secular Order Names' by Juliana de Luna, Siren Herald 2008-2009. Specific usage as "Color + Charge" [eg. Order of the Golden Tree from France (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/Fraternal_Knightly_Organizations.shtml)]. (http://medievalscotland.org/jes/OrderNames/index.shtml)

Submitter has made changes in accordance with the suggestions from September 2011's LoR.


4: Conrad von Zollern -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2002, via the Outlands

Per chevron sable and argent, in pale a demi-sun issuant from the line of divison Or, an hourglass sable

This submission is to be associated with Justin Timme

Submitter's primary name was registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands. Submitter's alternate name was registered on the October 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/10/09-10lar.html) via the Outlands.

Previous Badge, Per chevron sable and argent, in pale a demi-sun issuant from the line of division Or, and an hourglass sable, was returned on the Oct. 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

Commenters raised questions about the depiction of the hourglass, noting that it appears to be tipped forward, giving it somewhat of a trian aspect. From the September 2010 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/09/10-09lar.html) "This device is returned because the hourglass is depicted in trian aspect. Having a three-dimensional appearance has long been grounds for return. While certain charges (wedges of cheese, dice, etc.) require trian aspect to be recognizable, the hourglass is not among them."

Submitter has cleared the stated conflict by 'flattening' the hourglass image.

Submitter wishes to retain old badge(s).


5: Conrad von Zollern -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2002, via the Outlands

Per saltire Or and argent, within an orle a stag tippant to sinister regardant vert

This submission is to be associated with Oshere Ceoluhtes suna

Submitter's primary name was registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands.

Submitter's alternate name was sent up to Laurel on the October 2011 LoI (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-loi.html).

Submitter's previous badge, (Fieldless) A lion rampant sable, was returned on the June 2009 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2009-05-lop/0906-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for multiple conflicts: Buchanan of that Ilk "Or, a lion rampant sable." (12/94, Laurel); Flanders. "Or, a lion rampant sable." (12/94, Laurel)

Submitter's previous badge, Per saltire Or and argent, a stag's head erased vert was returned on the October 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for conflict with Geoffrey Biedermann (Feb. 2000 via Ansteorra) "Argent, a stag's head erased vert". There is only 1 CD for the change to the field.

Submitter has cleared the stated conflict by altering the primary charge.

Submitter wishes to retain old badge(s).


6: Conrad von Zollern and Katelin de Irlande -Resub Household Name

OSCAR finds the name (Conrad von Zollern) registered exactly as it appears in March of 2002, via the Outlands
OSCAR finds the name (Katelin de Irlande) registered exactly as it appears in May of 2008, via Artemisia

Prioria Niger Leonis

Language (Priory of the Black Lion (currently in Latin)) most important.
Meaning (Priory of the Black Lion) most important.

Submitters' primary names were registered on the March 2002 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/03/02-03lar.html) via the Outlands and on the May 2008 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/05/08-05lar.html) via Artemisia.

Submitters' previous Household name, Priory of the Lion of the Abbey of Saint David, was returned on the October 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-09-lop/1110-lor.html) stating:

Submitters documented the construction of the household name using Project Ordensnamen, by Meradudd Cethin, and included what may be the defining instance of "Priory of" as a household designator. There are 2 problems with this. First, Laurel noted that name patters for order names are not appropriate for household names on the September 2009 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/loar/2009/09/09-09lar.html), returning the name House Silver Talon (via Aethelmearc): "To be a house name, this must be justified as an inn sign name. It can't be based on the pattern for an order, as it's not an order. The concept is at some level fine; Margaret's "Comparison of Inn/Shop/House names found London 1473-1600 with those found in the ten shires surrounding London in 1636" (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~grm/signs-1485-1636.html) has <Eagles foote> before 1600. Mari's "English Sign Names From 17th Century Tradesman's Tokens" (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/Tokens/) has <Golden Leg>. That's probably close enough to give <talon> the benefit of the doubt..." Secondly, the designator "Priory of" makes no sense in combination with "Abbey of", and would not have been used in period. While submitters allow changes, we have no idea how to rescue this particular construction.

Submitters made changes by reducing the number of designators.

Prioria Niger Leonis, Latin form of "Priory/Abbey Black Lion"

Submitter believes Latin grammar is proper, but freely admits it has been many years since he studied Latin:

Prioria Niger Leonis ~ Black Lion Priory

Abbatia Niger Leonis ~ Black Lion Abbey

"To be a house name, this must be justified as an inn sign name."

[Color+Beast] Black Lion (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~grm/signs-1485-1636.html)

[Priory] - Owlwycke Priory was on the July 1987 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1987/07/lar.html) via Caid.

[Abbey] - Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd year, 1st tenure) 1992.04 [Order of Black Widows] "Despite the contention in the LoI to the contrary, this name is indeed a conflict with Widow's Abbey per RfS V.2. Addition of an adjective is insufficient difference. Since we can grant no difference for the identifying designator (per V.4.d.), this is a conflict. As noted by Lord Batonvert, 'Abbey' in Widow's Abbey performs the same function as the word 'household' in the same position would. If the word 'household' is the designator in 'Widow's Household', 'abbey' is the designator in 'Widow's Abbey'. As for the argument in the LoI that a black widow is 'a thing, a critter, a two word noun', if the College were to have to consider this submission on those grounds alone this would have to be returned, since the name 'black widow' was not given to the spider until early in the 20th century (the earliest citation is 1927), well after the Society's 1600 cut-off date. (The arachnid is not itself native to the Americas, but was brought into this hemisphere in the late 19th or early 20th century from the Far East.)" [April 1992 LoAR pg. 24 (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1992/04/lar.html)] (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/OrderAwardNames.html)

Submitters prefer "Priory" as a Household designator, but will also accept "Abbey" or even "House."


7: Diana Doria -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2004, via the Outlands

Azure, a loom argent between a pair of flaunches sable with a semy of sparks argent

Submitter provides documentation for the loom's appearance on the field and use of a loom in heraldry.

'Medieval Italian Heraldry', pg. 3 (http://regalis.com/reg/medherald.htm)

Past Acceptance submission of a 3D item (http://wharrow.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?Letter=g&PersonID=1108)

'The Weaver' from Das Standebuch, 1568 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_054.png)


8: Eishi Akimori -New Name

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Culture (13th Century Japanese) most important.

[Eishi] - Name Construction in Medieval Japan, Revised Edition by Solveig Throndardottir, pg. 222. Dated 1332, meaning 'Lady'

[Akimori] - Name Construction in Medieval Japan, Revised Edition by Solveig Throndardottir, pg. 222. Dated 1332, meaning 'High Status'


9: Eleanor of Penn Forest -New Name & New Device

Per pale wavy purpure and argent, a human skull and a staff of Asclepius counterchanged

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Client requests authenticity for 13th-15th Century English.
Meaning (The submitter is from Pennsylvania and is trying to mimic this association) most important.

[Eleanor] - Feminine Given Name in A Dictionary of English Surnames by Talan Gwyneck (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyAG.html)

[Penn Forest] - No documentation provided but submitter states '[there are] many examples of registered names that are similar [in construction], i.e. Kynan of Wyre Forest.'


10: Ellinor Rose Sanbourne -New Name & New Device

Azure, a rose within an orle argent

No changes.
Spelling ('Ellinor') most important.

[Double given names] - Double given names are documented as having been used in late period England in Africa filia Kennocii (Sharon L. Krossa)'s article titled "Concerning Double Given Names Before 1600." (http://medievalscotland.org/problem/practices/middle)

[Ellinor] - English given name documented in Aryanhwy merh Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman)'s article titled "English Given Names from16th and Early 17th C Marriage Records: Ellinor" (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/parishes/ellinor.html)

[Rose] - English given name documented in Talan Gwynek, Fause Losenge Herald Extraordinary (Brian M. Scott)'s article titled "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames ~ Rose" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Rose)

[Sanbourne] - The IGI extracted records show one "Agnes Sanbourne" married on 28 April, > 1605, at St. Botolph, Aldgate in London (Batch M000803). The IGI extracted records are part of the LDS databases. JPG image of record is attached.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=753/2012-02-10/00-59-17_AgnesSanbourne.JPG


11: Guy Herbert of Rutland -New Name & New Device

Per pale argent and sable, wolves rampant adorsed and a chevronelle abassed counterchanged

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Client requests authenticity for 11th-12th Century English.
Culture (11th-12th Century English) most important.

[Guy] - Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by Elizabeth G. Withycombe, pg. 143

'Masculine Given Names Found in the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland' by Karen Larsdatter (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm)

[Herbert] - Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by Elizabeth G. Withycombe, pg. 150

'Masculine Given Names Found in the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland' by Karen Larsdatter (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm)


12: Hrefna Cyrredsdottir -New Name & New Device

Quarterly sable and argent, a heart counterchanged

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Client requests authenticity for 12th-13th Century Norse (Viking).

[Hrefna] - 'Old Norse Women's Names' from Viking Answer Lady Webpage (http://vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml#h)

[Cyrredsdottir] - No documentation provided but the submitter writes 'Cyrred is my father even though he's Welsh. If it can't be "Cyrredsdorrir", please change to "Torinsdottir".'


13: Lijsbet vande Visschereye -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2006, via the Outlands

(Fieldless) a lion erminois

Submitter's previous badge, (Fieldless), a lion rampant Or ermine azure langued and armed azure, was returned on the Janurary 2006 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2005-12-lop/0601-lor.html) stating:

Commenters indicate that the ermine spots are too small to allow their tincture to be identifiable. They tend to look sable in the images and paperwork. This is a violation of RfS VIII.3 which states "Elements must be used in a design so as to preserve their individual identifiability" and further explains "Identifiable elements may be rendered unidentifiable by significant reduction in size…" In this case it is effectively impossible to determine the tincture of the spots. Badge returned for rework.


14: Máel Mide ingen Domhnaill -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Outlands LoI of November 28, 2011 as submitted.

Per bend vert and sable, a bend between a dragonfly bend-sinisterwise and a deer hoofprint bendwise argent

Submitter's name was sent up to Laurel on the November 2011 LoI (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-loi.html).

Submitter's previous device, Quarterly vert and sable, a dragonfly and a deer hoof print argent, was returned on the November 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-lor.html) stating:

This device is Returned for appearance of Marshalling per RfS XI.3.a: "a. Such fields may be used with identical charges over the entire field, or with complex lines of partition or charges overall that were not used for marshalling in period heraldry." (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#11.3) This device does not meet that requirement.

Submitter changes the field division to clear the issue.


15: Pipa de Blakemere -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2011, via the Outlands

Per bend argent and sable, a natural panther rampant sable and a cross fleury argent, within a bordure embattled per bend purpure and argent

Submitter's name was registered on the November 2011 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/11/11-11lar.html) via the Outlands.

Submitter's previous device, Per bend argent and sable, an ounce rampant sable incensed argent and a cross flory argent, a bordure embattled per bend purpure and argent, was returned on the November 2011 LoAR (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/11/11-11lar.html) stating:

This device is returned for a redraw, for violating section VII.7.a of the Rules for Submissions which requires that "Elements must be recognizable solely from their appearance." Blazoned on the Letter of Intent as a panther, this is neither an English-style panther, which has spots, nor a Continental panther, which is typically horned and has eagle's forefeet. A panther's incensing would also issue from both the mouth and ears, instead of just the mouth as depicted here. We have therefore reblazoned it as an ounce, which is a mane-less lion. However, the incensed flames here are argent on an argent field, giving no contrast at all. While in some cases small details of a charge may have poor or no contrast with the field, the overall charge must still be identifiable, and in this case we feel a return for a redraw is best.

The device was redrawn and reblazoned with a natural panther.


16: Quintin d'Acre -New Name & New Device

Azure, a crab within a bordure argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

[Quintin] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#Q)

[d'Acre] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#jewish)


17: Seamus O Mourane -Resub Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Spelling (spelling of given name, Seamus) most important.

Submitter's previous name, Seamus O'Mourne, was returned on the September 2010 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2010-08-lop/1009-lor.html) stating:

RETURNED for lack of documentation of the surname. MacLysaght is considered among the "Name Sources to Avoid" in the College of Arms Administrative Handbook (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/admin.html#APPENDIXF). The documentation shows "Mourne" to be the name of a mountain, while the article "O'" is almost exclusively used in conjunction with family names. Commenters noted that "O Mourane" would be an acceptably documentable name (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/)." Submitter cleared the issue by using the suggestion given in the September 2010 LoR.

[Seamus] - listed in <OC&M>, p. 163. 

[O Mourane] - <Woulfe>, p. 618.


18: Shahida al-Fustati -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No changes.

[Shahida] - Used in 16th Century Jerusalem, documented in A World Within: Jewish Life as reflected in Muslim Court Documents from the Sijill of Jerusalem (XVIth Century) by Amnon Cohen; 'Jewish Names in Ottoman Court Records (16th C Jerusalem): Feminine Given Names' by Kathleen M. O'Brien (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Jerusalem/WomenFullNames.shtml)

[al-Fustati] - a geographical nisba, meaning 'from Fustat'. Fustat was the capital of Egypt prior to Cairo off and on from 641 to 1168. (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/arabic-naming2.htm)


19: Shoshanah Simkhah bas Ruven -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 2010, via the Outlands

Per fess, vert and argent, a loaf of bread Or and a cauldron sable


20: Vvillequin d' Maquereau -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Culture (13th Century France) most important.

[Vvillequin] - 'An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris' by Scott Catledge (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#V)

[Maquereau] - 'French Names from Two Thirteenth Century Chronicles' by Josh Mittleman (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/crusades/)


21: Yasamin al-Hadiyya -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2010, via Drachenwald

Purpure, a senmurv within eight octofoils in annulo Or

Submitter's previous device, Purpure, a senmurv within eight octofoils in annulo Or, was returned on the November 2011 LoR (http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2011-10-lop/1111-lor.html) stating:

Returned for conflict with Bahram the Resplendent (2/83, An Tir): Sable, a senmurv within an annulet of roundels Or. There is one CD for the change of color of the field, but there is no visual difference for roundels versus the octofoils as drawn.

The octofoils were redrawn to give more of a visual difference from roundels.


Khalidah

Castle Herald


OSCAR counts 10 Names, 1 Household Name, 1 Order Name, 11 Devices and 4 Badges. There are a total of 27 items submitted on this letter.

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