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Middle LoI - 2017-03-31

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This item was on the 06-2017 LoAR

16: Veoreos Miklos - New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Middle LoI of March 31, 2017 as submitted.

Azure, an eagle sable in dexer chief a decrescent and in sinister chief a mullet of eight points argent.

In Commentary:

Daniel the Broc at 2017-02-01 13:46:24

Is the submitter attempting to do an IAP for a black charge on a blue field?

If not, then this has contrast issues.

Konrad Mailander (Dragon) at 2017-02-01 19:56:35

Yes this is an IAP for Hungarian arms. I did the work a few years ago. I'll track down the images.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-02 00:21:00

Strongly reminiscent of but clear from the important non-SCA arms of Moldavia, Dec 2003, Azure, an eagle displayed Or, beaked and membered gules, maintaining in its beak a Latin cross, between in chief a sun and an increscent Or.

However, and declare that those are the arms of Wallachia, at least as represented in the marshalled arms of Romania. Moldavia gets an aurochs, not listed in the O&A.

I like the between in chief phrasing but wouldn't insist on it here.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-02-02 20:27:05

This is very strongly reminiscent of Transylvania's coat of arms ( [ ] ), or the top half thereof (which is traditionally the part representing Hungary). The arms were officially awarded by Maria Theresa, but the design was first developed in the 1590s, under Báthory Zsigmond. (The placement of the parts took a while to "solidify".)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-02 21:54:25

Even if that part is treated as a marshalled coat--which would be ahistorical, according to, in particular the enraged-chicken depiction at, dated to 1596--it comes out as minimally different from the submission: 1 DC for types of secondary charges, and another for half their tinctures.

But definitely worth knowing.

Palotzi Marta at 2017-02-08 10:44:44

Given that the placement of the charges on Transylvania's arms varied, sometimes greatly, I think the only real difference between this and the eagle+sun+moon portion of Transylvania's arms is the tincture of the sun.

Given the submitter's name, I'm certain the resemblance is deliberate, but it's not good period recreation (ordinary people did not go around using a principality's arms), and it makes me very, very uncomfortable. I don't know whether it actually violates our presumption/conflict rules, but it certainly goes against their spirit.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-08 20:18:48

I see your argument, and agree that placement varied greatly, as conveniently shown at However, I'm curious about whether you've found the moon at dexter for Transylvania. Puttering around with Hungarian Wikipedia images and where they lead me, I haven't yet met that arrangement. It does occur with a deer and with a wolf* among the arms at my link above, but with the eagle and towers, it's always sun-&-moon, never moon-&-sun, either in redrawn cases like those, or in the few period images I've seen.

That page also shows a coat quartered by Sigismund Báthory that is interesting for our purposes: Azure, an eagle close contourny regardant wings displayed sable maintaining in its beak a Latin cross between in chief a sun Or and a decrescent argent. It too counts as clear from though rather reminiscent of this submission.

In any case: I think there's a more charitable way to interpret Miklos's imitation: As a statement of allegiance to Wallachia, on the pattern of the Guelph and Ghibelline chiefs in Italy. (What do we call those? "Chiefs of allegiance" seems not to be the phrase I'm half-remembering.)

I do concur that this concern should appear in the XLoI!


* That wolf is the House of Szapolyai's arms, used by various rulers of Hungary or parts of it:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-02-16 16:45:11

Closest is:

Victor Ispan

The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 2007 (via the East):

Azure, a raven sable perched atop a trimount vert and in chief two mullets argent.

One DC for posture, one for removing a charge group (the trimount, being a type of base, is a separate charge group from the mullets), and one for changing the type of half a charge group.

Victor's submission has some excellent IAP documentation. See:

Note that was pended, due to problems with the original documentation. I believe that documentation would suffice for this submission.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-02-27 12:49:21

Unfortunately the image links in that IAP no longer work: the Hungarian National Archives rearranged its website and no longer has the armorial up anywhere that I can find. The images can be found in the Hungarian Wikibooks armorial by searching for the names (for example I've been meaning to come up with an amendment for Victor's docs so that other people (such as this submitter) can use them, but my copious spare time hasn't been sufficient.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-02-27 15:59:34

Oh dear.

Well, it looks like he'll have to go through bit by bit. At least I doubt he'll need as many examples as Victor gave.

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