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Ansteorra Kingdom ILoI dated 2018-07-02

Good day. During these hot days of summer, remember to hydrate

1: Aillenn bean Ui Maille -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Alan ap Neel(7/2009), Alyna of Pinehyll (1/2008)

Purpure, a raven migrant to chief argent and on a chief argent 3 feathers sable

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (15 - 16th century Irish) most important.

Aillen - http://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aillenn.shtml

bean - is the post 1200 Gaelic form for wife. The pattern wife + husband's byname is documented from various Annals

OMaille - Header form in Woulfe pg 594 - There are several italicized 16th/17th century angelicized Irish forms under this header including <OMalley> which is enough to give submitter the benefit of the doubt that the Gaelic header was used

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:40:44
First URL fails because (at least in my Firefox browser) KMO cannot be capitalized. Use:

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aillenn.shtml

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 14:13:59
"The pattern wife + husband's byname is documented from various Annals."

Well, yes and no. The construction is fine, but I do not believe we have a single example of a woman described as X, wife of Y without a patronymic identifier preceding it. It is secondary information, as in, "Mary, John Brown's daughter, you know, the one who was married to Tom Jones, the singer. She died." As here:

M1187.4 inghen Ui Eidhin (.i. Duibheasa) ben Choncobair Mic Diarmata (tigherna Maighe Luircc) daughter of O'Heyn, (called Duvesa) and wife of Conor Mac Dermot (Lord of Moylurg)

I find a few places where the husband appears only by the clan name, but this is fraught. I don't believe there ever was AN O'Dempsey, so I think this citation is clean:

M1376.5 Bébinn inghean Domhnaill Uí Duinn, bean Uí Diomasaigh do écc. Bebinn, daughter of Donnell O'Dunne, and wife of O'Dempsy, died.

However, this one is decidedly not:

M1497.15 Elinora ingen Tomais (.i. iarla Cille Dara) mic Seain Caim ben Uí Neill (Conn mac Enri mic Eoccain) d'ég. Eleanora, the daughter of Thomas (i.e. Earl of Kildare), son of John Cam, and wife of O'Neill (Con, son of Henry, son of Owen), died.

In the latter case, "ben Uí Neill" is actually 'wife of the clan chieftain', using his TITLE "the" Uí Neill, rather than his name, which was Conn mac Enri mic Eoccain.

Accordingly, where there is a clan chieftain referred to by his title, as is the case with the O'Malleys, I believe "wife of O'Malley" is presumptuous, being a claim to being married to the clan chieftain. This is easily fixed by inserting a given name for her husband. If the Denys further down the letter is her husband, she might want to know that I find this in the Annals of Ulster:

U1444.7 Graine, ingen Domnaill h-Ui Daimin, companach Maigister Deinis Mic Gilla Coisgle Graine, daughter of Domnall Ua Daimin, consort of Master Denis Mac Gilla-Coisgle

Clearly a less formal arrangement than "wife".

If her culture of late period Ireland is important to her, she really needs to pick a patronymic, because I don't believe she'd be recorded without it. Otherwise, she needs to add a given name for her husband to avoid the presumption. Aillenn bean Deinis Ui Maille should be registerable.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 14:18:15
And, in a perfectly grammatical world, both Deinis and Maille should probably lenite, though I have carefully provided more than three examples from the annals where there is NOT lenition where we might expect it, so if she wants to stick the way it is, she can.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-16 19:55:33
I am happy to accept Pympernell's analysis as to what the name as submitted means. However, I can find nothing in http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN4B that makes "the O'Malley's wife", or even "the O'Malley", presumption under our rules.

§1, "Use of Elements that Appear to Be Titles", forbids only "the appearance of a claim to have a specific protected rank or title that the submitter does not possess within the Society". So far as I can tell, our peculiar set of ranks does not include "clan chief".

§2, "Dynastic Names", seems to forbid only names of royal dynasties. No matter how justifiably proud the O'Malleys might have been, their dynasty was not royal.

Neither §3, "Combination of Family Name and Location", nor §5, "Combination of Occupational and Locative Bynames", applies.

§4, "Honorific Names", forbids "Name phrases that were only granted as an honor or award by rulers". I do not believe any ruler granted the clan name.

Moreover, PN4B, forbidding "Claim of Identity or Close Relationship with an Important Non-SCA Person", in §1, "Non-SCA People Protected from Presumption", does not protect clan chiefs as a group, and the submission does not identify a particular chief.

I believe that while submitter should be strongly counseled that her proposed name makes a presumptuous claim, it may well be registerable under our rules.

Whether it should be is a different argument, and one that would appropriately be made to our Sovereigns.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-17 11:45:35
This is obviously wildly variable based on the actual clan name involved, and the period in which the name is placed. In the modern world, we think of a clan chieftain as a bloke who comes out dressed up for clan gatherings, but in early Ireland, these men WERE kings. From Wikipedia, s.v. Umhalls:

"Umaill was a territory located in the west of what is now County Mayo, Ireland. It comprises the baronies of Burrishoole and Murrisk, essentially all the land adjacent to Clew Bay.

The realm was conquered by the Tudor Kingdom of Ireland under the forces of Richard Bingham in 1593. It had then been under the leadership of Gráinne Ní Mháille, who was powerful there in lieu of her nephew, Éamonn Ó Máille, infant son of her brother and previous king, Lochlann Ó Máille who died in 1580. The English forces successfully integrated the realm into County Mayo."

Note the usage "the previous KING." The O'Malleys are one of the few clans where the name is NOT the given name of a clancestor, but in fact the Celtic word (maglios) for 'great, chief, king'. The O'Malleys managed to hold their land far longer than the Whelans (see Ui Faolain, below).

There are plenty of clans which held three farms and a leaky wagon, and plenty of names for which no formal clan exists, all of which are open to the enthusiastic recreator to run with and make their own. But if they are going to pick one of the handful of names of families who WERE kings in Ireland, they really need to be careful how they use them.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:30:12
'Migrant' is to chief by default, so that can be omitted. That, plus removing a spare 'argent' and spelling out the number, gives:

Purpure, a raven migrant and on a chief argent three feathers sable.

The migrant posture is considered equivalent to displayed. As such, there is a step from period practice for use of a non-eagle bird displayed. That appears to be the only SFPP here, though.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-07-06 15:23:29
There's nothing that distinguishes this as a raven. I'd blazon it as just a bird.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-07-06 15:36:10
Are those feathers chevronelly inverted sable and argent?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:46:49
No conflicts found, regardless of the intended tincture of the feathers.


2: Cailleach Dhé O'Cearbhaill -New Name & New Device

Cailleach Dhé O'Cearbhaill

Quarterly vert and sable, a greyhound sejant sinister paw raised Or and on a chief Or three poppies gules seeded Or

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Cailleach Dhé - https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Feminine?CailleachDhe.shtml

O'Cearbhaill - https://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-cearbhaill.php

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:41:54
First URL fails because (at least in my Firefox browser) KMO cannot be capitalized. Use:

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/?CailleachDhe.shtml

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:49:37
But that link doesn't help; it goes to the article's intro. What's needed is the same minus the question mark.

Cailleach Dhé - Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Cailleach Dhé", https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/CailleachDhe.shtml, shows <Cailleach Dhé> as the standard Early Modern Irish Gaelic (c1200-c1700) form.
That should replace the first item in the headmatter.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 19:17:57
Byname info should I think be

Ó Cearbhaill - An undated Gaelic header form in Woulfe, https://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-cearbhaill.php. Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada, "16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe: Sorted by Anglicized Irish Root", http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedRoot_C1.shtml, gives a period form <O Carrowill>, so we believe <Ó Cearbhaill> is reasonable for Irish Gaelic of the time.
Note that this is not the submitted <O'>. The most recent LoAR, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2018/05/18-05lar.html#39, Conall Ua Doibhilén, explained, "Submitted as Connall O' Doibhilin, the name improperly combined the Anglicized Irish O' with the Gaelic Doibhilin in the same name phrase". So with submitter's permission, send this up corrected to

<Cailleach Dhé Ó Cearbhaill>

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:50:38
Agree with Gerard's comments on the name.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 14:23:37
Submitter desires a FEMININE name. How about Cailleach Dhé inghean Uí Chearbhaill?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-16 19:58:55
Silly Sassenach was I, supposing that in Gaelic <feminine given name> + <surname> = <feminine name>.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-17 11:55:46
No different than any of a number of period cultures where gender agreement is required, including Latin, the leading documentary language of the medieval world. It's the Saxons that are weird.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:36:12
The dog is facing sinister, so that should be mentioned. Recent blazons suggest we normally use 'forepaw' instead of 'paw' in these situations. Those, plus removing an extra 'Or', gives:

Quarterly vert and sable, a greyhound sejant contourny sinister forepaw raised and on a chief Or three poppies gules seeded Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 13:43:58
I don't see that sinister is required, or even meaningful, as this facing is default for sejant contourny. The alternatives would be blazoned gardant and reguardant. So prefer:

Quarterly vert and sable, a greyhound sejant contourny forepaw raised and on a chief Or three poppies affronty gules seeded Or

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:03:31
Preceding corrected. Without affronty, the flowers would be in profile.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:05:45
The chief is very shallow, but this seems to incur only an artist's note from our Sovereigns. (Which is nevertheless undesirable.)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:51:21
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's blazon.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 14:49:49
That chief needs some serious charge chow. These poppies are red, with gold seeds, except that they are also half black. Also, poppies generally have four petals, not five; these are oddly-colored heraldic roses.

Compare image #1, the registration of Sigrun Ionsdottir (reg 2/2017) Argent, three poppies affronty gules seeded Or, and a chief embattled vert. Four petals, all red, no black.

1: Image 1


3: Denys O'Maille -New Name & New Device

Denys O'Maille

Per saltire azure and argent, on a bend gules 2 dragon's heads cabossed argent

No major changes.

Denys - "Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRSF-943 : 11 February 2018), Denys Faroll, 17 Mar 1645

O'Maille - header form in Woulfe pg 594. There are several italicized 16-17th century Angelicized Irish forms under this header including <O'Malley> which is enough to give submitter the benefit of the doubt that the Gaelic header form was used in the same time period

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:51:50
Given name doc checks out.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 12:51:43
FS batch number is C70111-1. No problems. Woulfe <O'Maille> checks. No conflicts noted.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 14:56:00
No, the header form in Woulfe is Ó Máille. O-apostrophe is a mistake.

If the submitter wants an entirely Irish name, he should tweak his spelling:

U1444.7 Graine, ingen Domnaill h-Ui Daimin, companach Maigister Deinis Mic Gilla Coisgle

Graine, daughter of Domnall Ua Daimin, consort of Master Denis Mac Gilla-Coisgle

Deinis Ó Máille is lovely.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:42:25
This is a bend sinister, not a bend. The dragon heads need to be specified as palewise, otherwise they would follow the line of the bend. That, plus spelling out the number, gives:

Per saltire azure and argent, on a bend sinister gules two dragon's heads cabossed palewise argent.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-07-06 15:24:13
Concur with Iago.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:52:11
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's comments.


4: Edward du Bois -New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Ansteorra.

Raskgarðr Skarptǫnn

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Raskgarðr - Constructed from Nordisk + runnamnslexikon

Rask- + -garðr pages 30 and 77

Skarptǫnn - constructed from Geirr bassi

Skarp- + tǫnn - pages 27 and 29

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-07-01/19-46-00_Raskgardr_Skarptonn_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-07-01/19-46-02_Raskgardr_Skarptonn_name_doc_2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-07-01/19-46-03_Raskgardr_Skarptonn_name_doc_3.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-07-01/19-46-05_Raskgardr_Skarptonn_name_doc_4.jpg

Alternate Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-07-04 06:30:30
So, SENA gives us some guidance on how to construct a name:
PN1B2b: Constructed Name Phrases: Name phrases may be constructed from attested period name elements. To do this, documentation must be provided to demonstrate that the name phrase follows a period pattern. We generally require at least three examples to consider something a pattern, as sometimes a single name phrase can create the appearance of a pattern that does not actually exist. The examples should closely match the constructed name phrase.

Nordisk runnamnslexikon has the names RaskulfR and Raskviðr, but not a third example. Lind doesn't have any examples of Rask- names.

However, it does appear in Sveriges medeltida personnamn (without a full entry, sadly) with:
http://www.sprakochfolkminnen.se/sprak/namn/personnamn/sveriges-medeltida-personnamn/smp---natutgava -och-fullstandigt-register.html
Raske, Raskolf, and Raskvidh.
We can show there is a pattern of shorter names having multi-element names in medieval Sweden:
sn. Bote (http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Osammansatt/ Mansnamn/Bote/Bote.pdf)
sn. Botvidh http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Botvidh/Botvidh.pdf
sn. Botgher http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Botgher/Botgher.pdf
sn. Botmund http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Botmund/Botmund.pdf

sn. Gere http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Osammansatt/ Mansnamn/Gere/Gere.pdf
sn. Gerlef http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Gerlef/Gerlef.pdf
sn. Gervidh http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Gervidh/Gervidh.pdf
sn. Germund http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Germund/Germund.pdf

sn. Borghe http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Inl%C3%A5nat/Osammans att/Mansnamn/Borghe/Borghe.pdf
sn. Borgholf http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Borgholf/Borgholf.pdf
sn. Borghvat http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Borghvat/Borghvat.pdf
sn. Borghsten http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Variationsna mn/Mansnamn/Borghsten/Borghsten.pdf

So Rask- could be productive.
SMP doesn't have entries for all of these, but lists
sn. Grytgardh http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/view/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok/Nordiskt/Sammansatt/M ansnamn/Grytgardh/Grytgardh.pdf
"Thorgardh"
"Valgardh"
"Ødhgardh"

So we could construct a Swedish (but not Old Norse, sadly) "Raskgardh"?

For the byname, Lind Personbinamn doesn't seem to have any compound bynames beginning with Skarp-. There is the byname "Hilditǫnn" (battle-tooth, war-tooth) that was famously associated with a semi-legendary 8th c. king of Denmark?

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-07-06 15:25:45
Concur with ffride.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:52:36
Nothing to add to what ffride has posted.


5: Elionora ingen ui Ceallaigh -New Name & New Device

Pure pale azure and argent, on a pellet a quartrefoil knot argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language most important.
Culture (14th century Irish) most important.

Elionora - Gaelicized form of Norman "Elenor" (which dates in various spellings to 12c). Usage of English / Norman first names is supported by the Fitzwilliam accounts as "Irish women are more likely to bear non-Irish given names than Irish men are". Known usage of this spelling in 1560 through 1599. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lateirish/fitzwilliam.html

ingen Ui Ceallaigh - Ui Ceallaigh is anglicized as "Kellie" in referenced text (ibid). The unleniated form is personal preference of the client

Name pattern: (Given) + ingen + (ui + Given)

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lateirish/ormond-patterns.html#Patterns

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:52:53
Looks OK.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 15:25:03
Oh, that article needs NOT to be cited for construction patterns. In fact, both of these articles are terrible if you want an Irish (Gaelic) name. The FitzWilliam accounts are Latin and English, and the Red Book is Latin. Neither will give you a suitable Irish name.

Elionora is either Latin or English. In Irish, we have Ailinora, Ailionora, Eilénóra, Eilonora, and Elinora. Ailionora and Eilionora are considered grammatically standard, though we don't have Eilionora actually attested in the annals. Since the first O in the submitted form Elionora is silent, I suggest Elinora as closest to that, though any of the attested forms are fine.

She wants 14th c., so she needs inghean Uí, not ingen. In the annals of Ulster, I find in the 14th century:

U1393.10 Domnall & Emonn, .i. da mac Mailechlainn h-Ui Ceallaigh, d'eg in bliadhain-si, .i. righ h-Ua Maine.

So, Elinora inghean Uí Ceallaigh in the 14th c. is possibly a little early for Elinor in Irish, but otherwise unremarkable. (See the documentation above for Aillenn for many examples of non-lenited feminine clan bynames.)

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-17 12:17:50
And, after having the discussion above about presumption, I realize this name may have the same problems. O'Kelley is another high king. Woman who are recorded around a standard patronymic with THIS PARTICULAR clan name typically refer to the king:

M1468.10 Ben Mumhan inghean Eoghain Uí Concobhair ben Uí Ceallaigh .i. Aedh mac Briain d'ecc. (Ben Mumhan, daughter of Eogan O'Connor, wife of O'Kelley, called Aedh son of Brian, died.)

This is the wife of Aedh mac Brian Ó Cellaigh, King of the Uí Maine, 1424-1467.

It is suggestive that if I search the annals for "inghean Uí", I get pages of hits, and if I search for "inghean Uí Ceallaigh", in both spellings of ingen, in every spelling of Cellaig, lenited and unlenited, I get ZERO.

Here again, sticking in a name for her father solves the problem, at least if she picks a name other than someone who was king of Uí Maine in the late medieval period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_U%C3%AD_Maine

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:44:37
Fixing a couple typos:

Per pale azure and argent, on a pellet a quatrefoil knot argent.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:53:10
No conflicts found.


6: Eys von Schnecken -New Name & New Device

Sable semy of spiders argent, a snail facing to sinister Or

Submitter has no desire as to gender.

Eys - Late Period German Masculine Given Names by Talan Gwynek (Brian M Scott) http://heraldry.sca.org/names/germmasc.html

Schnecken - German Place Names from a 16th C Czech Register by Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/modernperiod.html

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:53:45
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:49:28
Let's go with the more common 'contourny' here:

Sable semy of spiders argent, a snail contourny Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:06:59
(Irrelevant to registration: Gorgeous semy!)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:54:00
No conflicts found.


7: Eys von Schnecken -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A snail facing to sinister vert shelled cheqy purpure and Or

This submission is to be associated with Eys von Schnecken

Badge Comments:

Emma de Davyntre at 2018-07-02 22:09:04
I just realized that I wrote Purpure and Or and not Purpure and Argent for the shelled portion.

Fix as needed, thank you!

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 10:51:44
Let's go with the more common 'contourny' here, plus correcting the Or to argent and fixing the small typo:

(Fieldless) A snail contourny vert shelled chequy purpure and argent

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:54:24
No conflicts found with the badge as correctly blazoned.


8: Friderich Graubart -New Name & New Device

Lozengy azure and argent, a chevron gules within a bordure embattled vert

Friderich - "Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZ6H-345 : 10 February 2018), Friderich Löchlin, ; citing Mowenhain, Germany; FHL microfilm 891,677.

Graubart - "Deutschland Geburten und Taufen, 1558-1898," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NCWS-SJY : 10 February 2018), Johannes Graubart, 01 Mar 1605; citing ; FHL microfilm 1,184,933.

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:54:49
Docs check out.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:01:20
FS batch number for <Friderich> is C94091-1, no problems. Friderich is also found in dmnes: http://dmnes.org/cite/Friderich/1406/UrkJen2.

FS batch number for <Graubart> is C91509-1, no problems.

I find no conflicts.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 15:55:01
Friderich dated to 1160-1190 here: https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowMasc.html

Bahlow, snn. Gratop(p), Grau have a variety of old guy descriptives, including Grawetop 1301, 1472 'gray head'; Grolock 1382 'gray hair'; Groman 1390, Graman, Graweman 1291 'gray man; Grauschedel 1361 'gray crest'; Grauschopp 1377 'gray tuft'. I find Graubart 'gray beard' an unremarkable part of the pattern.

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-07-05 16:23:34
The embattlements are very obscured by the azure in the lozengy.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:08:47
Concur; they'd be just about adequate over a plain field, but as is I worry this will be returned.

Also, the chevron is very narrow.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:55:09
Agree that the embattled bordure doesn't work well with the lozengy field. No conflicts found.

Thomas de Groet at 2018-07-15 21:20:53
I have no difficulties with identifiability on the bordure embattled.


9: Henry Gruffudd -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Honoré Corbaut(5/2011)

Henry - http://st-walburga.aspiringluddite.com/docs/NamesFrom1thCcenChanceryDocuments.pdf

Gruffudd - https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/british1000/appendix4_5.html#app5

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:55:31
Looks OK.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:12:54
The submitter's chosen byname is documented in the link as a given name. It cannot be used as a byname with this documentation.

However, if the submitter is willing to go with the more Anglicized spelling of <Griffith> there is a Family Search entry which will do it: Richard Griffith 15 OCT 1592 OSWESTRY,SHROPSHIRE,ENGLAND, Batch Number C02071-1. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB4G-DBH

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 16:18:52
As Pantheon points out, the link for the byname is a record for a given name, but worse, it is the normalized headword form, not the form found in the period documents. Not even the Welsh spelled Gruffudd like that in period.

With the English Henry, he's going to want a late form of the byname. The closest I can get for him is from Morgan & Morgan, s.n. Gruffudd, where Gruffyths appears as a surname from the parish registers of Hanwood, Shropshire in the marriage of Hugo Gruffyths & Jana Gybbons in 1610 and the burial of Catherina Gruffyths in 1612. Detail available online http://www.melocki.org.uk/salop/Hanwood.html


10: Keyna Morgan Oulton -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 1991, via Ansteorra.

Per pale purpure and Or within a bordure an eagle displayed counterchanged engorged with a baronial coronet argent

Correction to Device (2018-Jul-13 13:07:13): Client wishes to release her old device.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 11:07:28
Putting the bordure at the end, removing 'displayed' (as it is the default for eagles), and correcting the phrasing for the coronet ('gorged of' not 'engorged with', and 'pearled' not 'baronial'), gives:

Per pale purpure and Or, an eagle counterchanged gorged of a pearled coronet argent within a bordure counterchanged.

According to the Ansteorra OP, client was awarded a Court Barony on February 3, 2018.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:16:53
I find the coronet wholly visible, but the pearling not. Is this a problem for the submission?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:19:02
Client has the same arms minus the coronet already registered. A statement as to the disposition of those arms is required.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:56:03
No conflicts found. Agree that baronial coronets are not the same in every kingdom, so the type needs to be specified as in Iago's reblazon.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-07-11 23:25:43
The submitter has a device registered, what does the submitter want done with her old device if the new one is registered.

The following device associated with this name was registered in November of 1991 (via Ansteorra): Per pale purpure and Or, an eagle displayed within a bordure counterchanged.


11: Myfanwy ferch Eifion -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 1997, via Ansteorra.

Argent, within a snake in annulo vorant of its tail vert a mushroom gules cap marked argent

Badge Comments:

Steve of Tirnewydd at 2018-07-16 08:46:22
As the central charge, shouldn't the mushroom be blazoned first? Thus giving us:

"Argent, a mushroom gules, cap marked argent, within a snake in annulo vorant of its own tail vert"

Using that blazon, I didn't find any conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-16 11:26:29
I hope someone else will answer your question, to which I add mine: Is there a good way to decide whether it's primary encircling secondary, primary within secondary, or blurring the distinction?

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 16:35:07
Sigh. This would be bad enough as arms, but it is so much worse as a badge, a badge, a badge, a badge, a badge.

<considers threatening to pull out as music coordinator for KWMD bid if she doesn't withdraw this...>

In all seriousness, I think this motif has been stopped in process for everything but the 1 April 2013 Imaginary Letter submission of Badger Mush Room Snake. It has been awhile since the horrifying video went around, but why you want to put modern ear worm in nice people heads? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQP_VKmn3ko

(And if you survive that, someone has spliced it together for AN HOUR.)


12: Nanna Spykernell -New Name & New Device

Per bend argent and azure, three lillies gules and a unicorn's head couped argent

Nanna - "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJHG-QJV : 8 March 2018, Nanna Pixley, ); citing , index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,895,093

Spykernall - Family Search John Spykernell

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJH8-6ZH

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:56:28
Docs check out.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:15:10
FS batch numbers for the names are I04521-2 and M86694-3. Both are acceptable. I find no conflicts.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 17:05:17
The given name support is a BIRTH record for 1650. That is not how the "gray period" works. The idea of having a gray period is that someone who marries in 1620 or dies in 1640 has a good chance of having been born in or before 1600. It also appears to be an "I" batch which is NOT on the acceptable batch list [B, C, J, K, M (except M17 and M18), or P are generally acceptable]. There is a P batch record slightly earlier, though still not great, for Nanna Golsworthy, christened 24 Jun 1647, which is suspicious in that her mother's name is listed as "Manna", and an all-number record for Nanna Medcalfe born 13 Oct 1664, for which there is a photo of a recopied register that nevertheless clearly says Hanna. There are MANY late-period instances of Hanna, and the N-for-H typo is a very easy one to make.

Hanna, or Nan, or Anna are all great names for late period England. I believe Nanna is a typo.

The surname is great, from Middle English spigurnel 'a sealer of writs'. R&W, s.n. Spickernall have Spigurnel(l) 1192, 1205; Spigernel 1259; Spikernel 1275; le Espycurnel', Espigurnel 1285; Sprigunnel 1297.

Be aware you have a typo in the docs line Spykernall rather than Spykernell.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-16 20:09:27
It may not be how the gray period should work, but it is explicitly how it does work. http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#GP3A, "Temporal Definition":

The use of a name element by a human being during the grey period is generally sufficient to allow this use, even if it is the name of an infant.
The question of a typo in the citation is more relevant.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-17 12:39:48
You left out the previous sentence, "This is on the grounds that they might have been in earlier use." If I remove my date parameters from Family Search and let it fly, outside of the couple of suspicious entries discussed, I start seeing bunches of Nanna examples after 1750, most of which are in America. I do not believe it is likely that Nanna was in use before 1600. Withycombe, s.n. Ann, actually speaks to reasons other than fashion, "The early diminutives were Nan and Nanny, but they came in time to be used as a term for a loose woman, and were replaced in the 18th c. by Nancy." And, apparently, especially in America, evidently Nanna. Family Search is great for many things, and I have heavily annotated my copy of Withycombe with entries for names where she says, "This name was not much used until the 17th c.," when the huge data pool of FS tells us otherwise. But here she provides a good reason, and the data backs her up.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:56:56
The plural of "lily" is "lilies". No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-10 16:08:01
So

Per bend argent and azure, three lilies gules and a unicorn's head couped argent


13: Nvala Keane -New Name & New Device

Argent, a strawberry azure capped vert

No major changes.
Language most important.
Spelling (Keane) most important.

Nvala - https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Nvala.shtml

Keane - https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/Woulfe/sortedbyangelicizedroot_K.shtml

Name Comments:

Villana Palazolo at 2018-07-03 19:35:44
Submitting name should be Nuala, with a U, not a V.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:37:54
Same change required in the URL, along with lowercasing KMO, giving https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Nuala.shtml, by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Nuala".

Contrariwise, the correct byname URL is http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedRoot_K.shtml, Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada, "16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe: Sorted by Anglicized Irish Root"

The latter source supports <M'Keane>, which we would expand to <MacKeane>, but not a bare <Keane> except as a "root". Is that sufficient for its use as a byname?

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:18:04
No, the submitter would have to use MacKeane. And I suppose the <v> in the initial submission is a typo? The submitter wants <Nuala> and not <Nvala>?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-13 13:47:04
Regarding the V: Yes, <Nuala>. So says Lady Villana at the beginning of this sub-thread.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 17:35:20
Nuala is a fine Gaelic name. (Yes, that's a U.)

Keane is fairly common in the southern and middle counties in England from the Cornish root, hence Sir Kay in the Arthurian legends and Saint Keyne of Cornwall. Bardsley, s.n. Kean, has the marriage of Richarde Fludde and Hester Keane in 1598. There is no problem mixing Cornish or English with the Gaelic first name according to SENA, so Nuala Keane should be fine. I see no conflicts.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:57:21
No conflicts found.


14: Ophelia Warde -New Name & New Device

Argent, on a bend sinister purpure three dragonflies in bend argent between two dandelions Or slipped and leaved vert

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound (Ward) most important.

Ophelia - English given name recorded in Hamlet by William Shakespeare - 1603

Shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet.1.3.html

Warde - Reaney+Wilson_EnglishSurnames_,s.n.

Ward(i)William.John_Warde_1194,"1257"

Name Comments:

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:21:36
Extending the documentation for the given name, I have Ophelia Young in Family Search, batch number I07101-5https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:ND7T-ZLF

I find no conflicts.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 17:59:02
Well here's a fun one. Shakespeare is late to the party. Withycombe, s.n. Ophelia cites the Greek word ὠφέλεια 'help, aid, succour, especially in time of war', which Liddell backs up. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%29fe%2Fl-eia&la=greek&can=w%29fe%2Fl-eia0#lexicon

She says the first appearance as a female name (which I haven't checked against LGPN, but it hardly matters) was by the poet Iacabo Sannazaro in his work "Arcadia" published in 1504. He spells it Ofelia, probably pronounced oh-fay-lee-ah. http://www.letteraturaitaliana.net/pdf/Volume_3/t67.pdf

There are a couple of English Ophalia (two As) examples that LONG predate our Will, including:

Ophalia King, Female Christening Date 07 Aug 1575 Christening Place Kings Areley, Worcester, England Father's Name Humfrey King https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR8C-R8V Indexing Project (Batch) Number C13561-5

So, by hook or by crook, somebody read enough Italian to get Ophalia into the 16th c. English naming pool, and restoring the original vowel E to the middle syllable is a not unexpected change. The Greek was probably oh-feh-lay-ah, so the pronunciation oh-FEE-lee-ah we can probably lay at Shakespeare's door.

Bardsley, s.n. Ward, baptism of Andrew Warde in 1541. Ophalia Warde would be super cool, but I think Ophelia Warde will be fine.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 11:13:22
This is a bend, not a bend sinister. We don't need to specify that the dragonflies are in bend, as that's the default for charges on a bend, but we do need to note that they are palewise, as otherwise they'd follow the line of the bend. Those, plus changing the order to primary/secondary/tertiary, give:

Argent, on a bend purpure between two dandelions Or slipped and leaved vert three dragonflies palewise argent.

We can't have Or dandelions on an argent field.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:42:26
I wonder if we can't get around that with

Argent, on a bend purpure between two dandelions vert flowered Or three dragonflies palewise argent

Or would that need more foliage in the emblazon?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:58:07
No conflicts found vs. the device as reblazoned by Iago.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-10 16:08:38
Which can't be registered.


15: Órfhlaith Ni Hwoligan -New Name

Spelling (Hwolighan) most important.

Órfhlaith - https://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/orfhlaith-orlaith,php

Hwoligan - https://www.medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnglicizesIrish/feminine.shtml

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 14:58:52
Typo in the first URL (comma for the needed dot). Use https://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/orfhlaith-orlaith.php.

Unfortunately, this represents Rev. Woulfe's original text, which apparently made inaccurate deductions about earlier forms. Tellingly, only the forms <Órlaith>, <Orlaith>, <Órlaithe>, <Orlaidh>, and a couple in <A-> are to be found in Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Órlaith", https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Orlaith.shtml.

Suggest <Órlaith> for the submission.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 15:11:08
There is a typo in the byname submission shown, repeated once in the headmatter--H omitted--and unrelated ones in the URL (unaccepted capitalization and S for D). Also, the correct capitalization for <Ni> is evidently none.

Byname submission should be <ni Hwolighan>. Byname citation should be

Hwolighan - Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada, "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents: Women's Names", http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Feminine.shtml, s.n. Ellen, Ellen ny <Hwolighan>.

Whole submission should, with submitter's permission and note made of the change, be <Órlaith ni Hwolighan>.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 18:30:34
Since we are going for the amusing misspelling in the Anglicized documents, unless there is a pressing reason NOT to keep the full byname as found, I believe we should. Ny is the overwhelming choice for this set of documents, and the attested byname is ny Hwolighan, so I believe we should submit ny Hwolighan. These names are already screwed six ways from Sunday; you simply can't pull them apart and say, for instance, that Hwolighan is a plausible spelling for the given name Uallachán.

It is a pity we can't talk her into the equally amusing Ortlinia from the same collection, which pretty much has to be some attempt to Latinize Orlaith, there being no other Irish feminine name beginning in Or- and having both an L and a T in it. Ortlinia ny Hwolighan would be beautifully consistent in a painful sort of way.

I see why the Fs got stuck in there; we see it occasionally on Coblaith, as in the busy 10th c. citation (M914.5) for Cobhfhlaith, inghen Duibh Dúin, banabb Cille Dara. I have never seen it in Orlaith, though. (Also, NEVER trust Woulfe for given names. He's a godsend for surnames, but.) So, yeah, Órlaith ny Hwolighan.


16: Refr Inndraumspaki -New Alternate Name

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Wolfker Fuchs

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.
Meaning (Last name Fox or as close as possible for a German) most important.

Wolfker - https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowMasc.html

Fuchs - https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/Early_German_Bynames.html

Alternate Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-07-04 06:36:56
The registered name is "Refr inn draumspaki," registerd September 2006: http://oanda.sca.org//oanda_name.cgi?p=Refr%20inn%20draumspaki

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 14:59:29
The documentation should include what the references say about the names.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 18:56:20
Wolfker is found once as a given name in 1296, in Silesia, which is technically Poland, but was under German control. Most of these names are ethnically German, but some have slavic influences. The names should be considered Mittelhochdeutsch. The collection also includes Wolf, Wölfel, Wolferam, Wolveram, Wolfhart, and Wolfgang, so Wolf- as a protheme was a big winner.

Fuchs is a modern High German name which appears in MHG as Vuhs, and in the detail material as follows: Arnoldus qui Vulpis dicitur 1237 = Arnoldus Vulpes 1242 Arnolt der Fuhs n.d. [may be the same person] Hugo dictus Vulpes 1237 Daniel cognomine Fu(h)s 1198

Wolfker Fuhs or Wolfker Vuhs are fine. Fuchs is a much later form of German which does not make a happy combination with the data from which we find Wolfker.


17: Ricardus Oldecroft -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Ricardus - http://heraldry.sca.org/names/eng13/eng13m.html

Oldecroft - http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/docs/Surnames_in_the_Middle_English_Period.pdf

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 16:06:10
The byname source is Baron Edwin Fitzlloyd, "Surnames in the Middle English Period: the 12th through 14th centuries", which shows Lofvenberg, Mattias T, Studies on Middle English Names (London: Williams & Norgate, 1942), as its source. It is not helpful to the good baron's credibility that the only form of the title I can find for Löfvenberg on the Net is Studies on Middle English local surnames. More unfortunately, the snippets of that work available from Google books do not show the name in any period context.

So perhaps another source should be cited. One possibility is Close Rolls of the Reign of Henry III: Preserved in the Public Record Office, Volume 13 (Great Britain. Public Record Office, Kraus Reprint, 1970), https://books.google.com/books?id=2ug_AAAAYAAJ, p. 500, image below, but the title page is not available at a readable size. I am not certain whether that prevents its use.

So then in Latin, Charles Roberts, ed., Excerpta è rotulis finium in Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico tertio rege: A. D. 1216 - 1272. A. D. 1246 - 1272, Volume 2 (1836), https://books.google.com/books?id=ev09AAAAcAAJ, p. 443, second and third images below.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:00:04
Docs check out.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:28:21
Ricardus is in the dmnes: http://dmnes.org/cite/Ricardus/1181/StPaulDom and Oldecroft is well enough doumented by Michael Gerard Curtememoire.

I find no conflicts.


18: Rys Seir -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Ragi heror(2/2009), Rose Grey (8/2015)

Vert, an owl and in a chief argent two mullets vert

No major changes.

Rys - R & W, s.n. Rhys masculine name patronymic Walter Rys dated 1327

Seir - R & W, s.n. Sayer, masculine name Stephanus filius Seir dated 1148-52 unmarked patronymic

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 19:04:50
I helped him with this. He was after particular sounds, and this was pretty darned close, while being totally documentable. No conflicts noted, checking Ris, Rhys, Rys, Rees, Reese.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 11:14:53
Fixing a small typo:

Vert, an owl and on a chief argent two mullets vert.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:00:37
No conflicts found.


19: Sam Bramall Davenport -New Name & New Device

Per chevron embattled gules and sable chief two crosses crosslet Or a wolf passant contourny Or

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Sam - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWXZ-QB3

Bramhall - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQKW-YR The surname was found in the Domesday book, the name meaning "hook of land where broom grows" derived old English "brom+halh"

Davenport - https://familysearch.org/ark/61903/1:1:NGZ3-9J8 The first surname was found in the Domesday book derived from Deneport. The name Dane meaning "trickling stream" and "port derived from harbor port

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 16:50:14
We should "summarize" the content of the FamilySearch records, in particular showing acceptable batch numbers. Begin with

Sam - <Sam> Ivory, Male, christened 10 Nov 1616, Saint Martin at Palace, Norwich, Norfolk, England, C04790-1, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWXZ-QB3
(There are dozens of earlier items for <Sam>, but since gray period suffices, we may as well use the submitted record.)

The offered URL for the first byname is missing a 9. And it should cite <Bram_all>, as submitted for the name, not <Bramhall> as currently shown in the headmatter:
Bramall - Thomas <Bramall>, christened 02 Feb 1634, Bradfield, York, England, P00712-1, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQKW-9YR
The URL offered for the second byname is similarly missing a colon. Cite:
Davenport - Dorathe <Davenport>, christened 27 Feb 1607, Broughton by Brigg, Lincoln, England, C02687-1, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGZ3-9J8
[Later: I believe the three indented paragraph in this post should suffice for the XLoI. However, submitter's "hook of land" and "trickling stream" comments may also be appropriate.]

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:01:19
Docs check out for the first and last names. Can't open the entry given for Bramall, but they have a number of late-period entries for that surname.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-10 16:10:37
Mine for <Bramall> with the 9, or his original?

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-07-13 13:33:48
The FS links for the bynames don't work anymore, I suspect that the site is updating. However, <Bramhall> does appear in R&W s.n. Bramah [...] Bramhall. and Davenport also is in R&W, s.n. Davenport as Thomas <Davenport>, 1642 during grey period.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-13 14:00:21
I testify that the FS links in the three indented paragraphs in my first post above are working now.

Also, note that <Bramhall> is pretty clearly a typo. The link the submitter attempted to cite was to Thomas <Bram_all>, as I show above.

I believe the name should go up as submitted, viz., <Sam Bramall Davenport>.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 19:16:48
We don't need the over-the-hedge Family Search citations.

Bardsley, s.n. Samms, Sams has Samme Parvus (the little) in 1273, and the note, "This name (Sam or Samp) was so popular, and Samuel so rare, that we must needs give it the preference."

R&W, s.n. Bramah has Thomas Bramall in 1543 and the same guy as Thomas Brammall in 1566.

Bardsley, s.n. Davenport has John Davenport, 1555.

Sam Bramall Davenport is fine.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 11:16:48
We can simplify the blazon somewhat:

Per chevron embattled gules and sable, two crosses crosslet and a wolf passant contourny Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:01:47
No conflicts found.


20: Siyâva thugatêr Karsanou -New Name

Language most important.
Culture most important.
Meaning (Rider of the dark horse) most important.

http://www.sarmatianinthesca.blogspot.com

https://www.s-gabriel.org/3315

popflick.com/learn?s=siyâvash

The Sarmatian Language and the area was based to the concept of the Iranian Knights however they would have passed in area

The closest living and dying language now is Wakhi which is used in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and used by about 30,000 people in the world

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 17:47:41
Unfortunately, nothing in the headmatter can be considered any kind of documentation for the submitted name. (This includes my search on Aritê gunê Akasa's blog for the offered given name and byname.) Both of the valid links there do support the Sarmatian language as existing though recorded only via ancient Greek. The "popflick" item has proved refractory to my attempts.

Submitter may be feminizing either the modern <Siyâvash> or the earlier Siyâvoš (Persian: سياووش‎), which names

a major figure in Ferdowsi's epic, the Shahnameh. He was a legendary Iranian prince from the earliest days of the Iranian Empire. A handsome and desirable young man, his name literally means "the one with the black horse" or "black stallion".
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siy%C3%A2vash) But if my guess is accurate, it has two problems: She does not source her grammar, and the name is of a legendary figure. Wikipedia also covers one "<Siyâvash> ... (c. 1536 -- pre-1616) ... an Iranian illustrator" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siy%C3%A2vaosh_Beg_Gorji), but this is not great evidence for a period spelling, and in any case is not that in the submission.

<Siauos> occurs in Ursula Georges, "Greek Names with Scytho-Sarmatian Roots" at http://yarntheory.net/ursulageorges/names/iranianroots.html, as masculine--again, this might feminize as <Siaua> to match the submitted <thugatêr>, 'daughter of', but I don't know that much Greek.

The rest of the byname eludes me entirely (except for the Webminister in the Barony of Wiesenfeuer, listed at http://barony.wiesenfeuer.ansteorra.org/baronial-members/baronial-officers as Lady Siyava Thugater Karsanou, who is presumably submitter).

I do not find "Iranian Knights" as a proper name. (Surely irrelevant: "Persian Knights" is tenuously reported as a modern gang at https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Persian%20Knights and https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2y523.)

Wakhi is indeed the modern name of a language, with perhaps twice as many speakers as stated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakhi_language), but its relevance to the submission seems tangential at present.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-16 21:29:28
There is just no getting around a minority culture that had no written language in our period. We are forced into the closest approximation via the documentary language, and in this case, it is Greek. Unfortunately, since the word elements don't always follow the rules of Greek, we are kind of throwing darts in places.

Problem #1, there is little overlap between the feminine name elements in Ursula's article, but there is a feminine Mada and a masculine Madakos. I think the submitter has chosen an arguable analog; there is a masculine Siauakos, so a feminine Siaua is not unreasonable. We have no basis for combining this orthography with that on the blog, so though I think Siaua is not a bad guess, there is no support for Siyâva nor can it be combined with the byname as presented.

Ursula gives us thugatêr and sends us diving for a genitive of Dad's name. Sadly, there is no Karsanos such that thugatêr Karsanou is supported. There is Karsas, which gives us a world of hurt, because Greek terms in -as are often adjectival and they don't become genitive as names. (E.g., the tribe Doukas, collective noun plural Doukai, feminine Doukaina, surname for a man... Doukas, undeclined.) I think I would be okay with thugatêr Karsas in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

So based on Ursula's Greek evidence, there are worse choices than Siaua thugatêr Karsas, but that is as close as I can get to submitted form.


21: Stefania de Pane -New Name

Language most important.
Culture most important.

Stefania - https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/perugiaFemAlpha.html

The tax roll is studied by Alberto Grohmann in L'Imposisione Diretta nei Comuni della'Italia Centrale nel XII Secolo: La Libra di Perugia del 1285 (Paris, Torino: École Fran{c.}aise de Rome, 1986

de Pane - https://heraldry.sca.org/kwhss/2013/Giada_Alberti/Overview_of_Medieval_and_Renaissance_Italian_Names .pdf

Trades often became the baisi for the family surname. By vocation I bake, thus I have chosen de Pane (Baker)

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:35:42
First citation, with working URL, should be

Stefania - in Arval Benicoeur, "Feminine Given Names from Thirteenth Century Perugia: Names Listed Alphabetically", https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/perugia/perugiaFemAlpha.html.
The sentence imnmediately following ("The tax roll ...") should be deleted as irrelevant for the present purpose.

Second citation should be
Pane - listed as a "surname root" for "baker" under "Vocational Surnames" in Signora Giata Magdalena Alberti, "Overview of Medieval and Renaissance Italian Names". This does not quite support <Pane> as a full surname, and we have found only the bucket shops (https://www.houseofnames.com/pane-family-crest and https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=pane) citing it as such. Assistance to better evidence is sought.

Trades often became the basis for the family surname. By vocation I bake, thus I have chosen <Pane>, literally 'bread'.
This evidence does not support <de> since <Pane> is not a place.

I believe submission should be sent up as

<Stefania Pane>

with the indented paragraphs above--and submitter's approval for in particular the rewrite of the last sentence.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:05:39
Agree with Gerard about the "de".


22: Thyrae Gyldenstjerne -New Name & New Device

Per pale nebuly vert and argent, an open book Or pierced with a rapier inverted bendwise sinister sable and in canton a mullet of seven points Or

Language most important.
Culture (15th - 16th Century Danish) most important.

See Attached Documentation

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-07-01/19-48-50_Thyrae_Gyldenstjerne_name_doc_1.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-07-04 06:46:45
So the given name is from St. Gabriel report no. 3332:
http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?3332+0
"In the 13th century, we find the name spelled <Tyræ>, <Thyræ>, and <Thyry>, and in the 14th century the spellings <Thyræ> and <Thyre> are the most common. (Here, <æ> represents the a-e ligature.)"

So, the name is Thyræ, not Thyrae.

It also appears in Diplomatarium Danicum with:
"iomfrw Thyræ herra Thorbernæ dotter", 1401
https://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/14010105001

As does the byname:
"frwe Bodill Gyldennstiernn" [Lady Bodil Gyldenstjerne], 1453
https://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/13969999003
So "Thyræ Gyldennstiernn"?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:06:41
What ffride said.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:07:47
No conflicts found. More commonly this would be "pierced by a rapier."


23: Tigernán mac Flainn Uí Fáeláin -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Tigernán - Middle Irish Gaelic masculine name dated 980, 1201, 1313 in "Index of names in Irish Annals: Tigernán / Tighearnán" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M O'Brian) https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Tigernan.shtml

mac - patronymic marker

Flainn - genitive form of Flann, Middle Irish Gaelic masculine name dated 754-1486 in "Index of Names in Irish Annals, Flann" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M O'Brian) https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Flann.shtml

Uí - clan affiliation marker

Fáeláin - genitive form of Fáelán Middle Irish Gaelic masculine name dated 628-1423 in "Index of Names in Irish Annals, Fáelán / Faolán" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M O'Brian)

https://medievalscotland.org/KMO/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Faelan.shtml

This name is a simple patronymic with clan affiliation byname, X mac Y Uí Z. Pattern is documented in "Quick and Easy Gaelic names" 3rd Edition by Sharon L. Krossa https://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#patronymicwithclan

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:00:44
The first three links fail because KMO cannot be capitalized in them--at least not in my Firefox browser. So

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Tigernan.shtml

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Flann.shtml

https://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Faelan.shtml

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 18:04:07
I find no conflicts for <Tigernán mac Flainn Uí Fáeláin>, and see no registered name on which it might presume a relationship.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:08:49
Docs check out, thanks to Gerard.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-07-17 10:55:09
Okay, go with me a bit on this one. Neither the early form Tigernán nor the early form Fáeláin is appropriate here; this name really needs to be in Early Modern form. The clan name is spelled exclusively Ui Faolain in Gaelic records, for good reason.

The clancestor is Faelán mac Cormac, who we see becoming king of the Déisi here:

I966.1 Mors Cellaich m. Foelain, ríg Laigen, & Foelain m. Cormaic, ríg na n-Désse.

His grandson, who is technically the first Ua Faeláin, literally, was not recorded that way until long after his death. His death is in fact recorded here:

U1014.2 Mothla m. Domnaill m. Fhaelain

For the next century and a bit, the ONLY person referred to as any form of Ua Faelain was the king of the Déisi, and the term was synonymous with the chieftaincy and kingship. The king was Ui Faolain, and his heir was mac Ui Faolain. In the late 1100s, the Anglo-Norman invaders decided to take the land previously owned by the Déisi. They beat the Irish army pretty soundly in 1170, and cleaned up the last of the resistance, including mac Ui Faolan, here in 1196:

M1196.3 Slóighead lá Ruáidhri Mac Duinn Slebhe co n-Gallaibh, & go macaibh toísech Connacht do shoighidh Chenél n-Eoghain, & na n-Airther. Tangattar dna Cenél Eóghain Telcha Ócc, & fioru Airthir co machaire Árda Macha i n-a n-aghaidh, & do-radsat cath dhóibh go raoimheadh for Mhac Duinn Slebhe & ro ládh derg-ár a mhuintire. Torcratar ann dna a dó dhécc do macaibh flatha, & toíseach Connacht go sochaidhibh oile do dhoescurshluagh imaille friú. Ba dia maithibh Brian Buide Ua Flaithbhertaigh, mac Maoil Iosa Ui Concobhair a Connachtaibh, mac Ui Concobhair Failge, & mac Ui Faolain na n-Deise.

(stuff happened and everybody, including the heir to the throne, died.)

At this point, there was no longer a king of the Déisi known as Ui Faolain, and this is where the clan name starts to be adopted by survivors and hangers-on. So that pretty much takes us to 1200 and the Early Modern Irish break.

So, Tighearnán mac Flainn Uí Faoláin is good for anytime from 1200 on. Tigernán mac Flainn is a perfectly acceptable earlier name, but at that time nobody was Uí Fáeláin except the king.


24: úllach inghean Uí Dhubhshlán -New Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Azure, a triquetra and three lions sejant forepaw raised Or

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-07-03 11:24:55
I assume this is: •Úallach inghean Uí Dhubhshláine ◦This name was registered in June of 2015 (via Ansteorra).

Specifying that the triquetra is primary by using 'between' instead of 'and':

Azure, a triquetra between three lions sejant forepaw raised Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-07-09 17:57:40
I'd prefer

Azure, a triquetra between three lions sejant dexter forepaws raised Or

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-07-10 15:09:38
Found nothing closer than Annora of Trinity House, reg. 11/12 via the Middle: "Azure, a triquetra between three roundels Or each charged with a triquetra azure."



OSCAR counts 18 Names, 2 Alternate Names, 14 Devices and 2 Badges. There are a total of 36 items submitted on this letter.

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