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Northshield ILoI dated 2018-05-24

Greetings unto Baron Iohannes Glenfidanus, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield May Internal Letter. Comments are due by June 20, 2018.

1: Brice Davidson -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2016, via Northshield.

Azure, scarpes sinister wavy a quill pen and an open book argent

Submission History This revised device is a resubmission of the the return from the February 2018 Northshield kingdom letter, 'Gules, a bend sinister wavy argent, an open book and a quill Or'. That return was for conflict with EĆ³rann Maguire.

The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 2000 (via Trimaris):

Gules, a bend sinister wavy argent between two quatrefoils Or.

https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=83380

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-05-25 07:56:48
We need to say how many scarpes there are. Scarpes are sinister by definition. And this is a feather, not a quill pen.

Azure, two scarpes wavy between a feather and an open book argent.

Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-25 12:20:44
I agree with Iago's reblazon.

If the submitter really wants a quill pen, this should be returned for a redraw.

A pen is a tool for writing or drawing with ink. The most common form of pen in heraldry is the "quill pen", sometimes misleadingly (and wrongly) blazoned simply a "quill"; the quill pen is the default form of pen for Society use; the supplied illustration is taken from Bossewell, 1572.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-25 14:09:06
"Scarpe" is the diminutive of a bend sinister. This then is blazoned as Iago suggested. No conflicts found.This pen would be uncomfortable to write with; agree that it needs to have the vanes stripped off the quill far enough back to leave room to grip it comfortably.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-25 16:23:30
The edges of the scarpes should be parallel, for each scarpe and for the pair. I can find no examples of armory returned by Laurel, only artist's notes, for similar problems. Nevertheless, it would be well to let submitter redraw them thus, as ordinaries and not so much like fluttering ribbons.


2: Joubert De La Rose -New Name & New Device

Azure, two ravens displayed argent and on a chief embattled Or, between two fleur de lys azure, a rose gules

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Spelling (Joubert is preferred, De La Rose can be altered if needed) most important.

Joubert is a 17th c English surname found in Family Search:

Maria Joubert, married 25 Dec 1648, London, England, Batch # M00145-1 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJYC-3M7)

Late period English surname used as a given name.

De La Rose is a 16th c English surname found in Family Search:

Richard De La Rose, Male, 13 Nov 1540, LONDON, ENGLAND, Batch # P00165-1 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JM5Q-74K)

Name Comments:

Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-25 12:06:26
I have no issues with this name's construction but would like to see additional documentation for use of a surname used as a given name, when the only submitted documented use of the surname desired is that of a person likely born after 1600, given that most people married in period before the age of 48.

No Conflicts found.

Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-25 12:12:36
According to the 'Dictionnaire etymologyique des noms de famille de France' whilst today the various spellings have sometimes become fused, there were originally two centres for the name and two separate origins. The first is that as Jubert it is from the departements of Ouest and Rhone, the derivation being from the Latin word 'jubilare' meaning joyful. As such it was apparently a nickname for a person who had a life full of pleasure, or perhaps given the robust nature of medieval nicknames, the complete reverse! The second origin is from the early pre 7th century personal name Jaubert.

From an admittedly dubious source: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Joubert#ixzz5GXCCS05v

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-06-05 11:32:01
Per the Sept 2012 LoAR:

For the last two years, we have registered given names derived from late period English family names, based on a well attested pattern. Commenters have provided dozens of examples of this pattern for masculine names, as well as several examples of this pattern for feminine names (including Smith as a feminine given name). These examples are found both in the IGI index and in Withycombe, which mentions a grey period example of a woman named Essex.

Various commenters have called for us to restrict the registration of these given names to submissions that are completely late period English names. However, this limitation would be a sharp departure from current policy.

First, we would have no grounds to place this limitation on attested given names, which would include Smith, Leach, White, Bainbridge, Guildford, and Richardson, among others. A system which would allow Smith as a given name to be registered more easily than Ashley would create confusion. Second, by long precedent we treat constructed name elements exactly as attested ones. Therefore, we will continue to register these constructed given names in any context suitable for an attested late period English given name.

We note that this pattern has not been documented in Scotland or Ireland. As such, family names only found in Scotland and Ireland cannot be used to create given names. However, many family names spread from Scotland and Ireland into England. In general, family names documented in sixteenth century England may be used to create given names, even if they are of Scottish or Gaelic origin.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-25 14:10:42
Docs check out by our standards.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-06-05 16:37:56
I'd expect FamilySearch's atypical capitals would be lowered, to give

<Joubert de la Rose>

I find no conflicts.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-05-25 08:08:10
Getting rid of some unnecessary commas, specifying the placement of the birds, fixing the plural of the fleurs, and blazoning the tertiaries from the center out, gives:

Azure, in fess two ravens displayed argent and on a chief embattled Or a rose gules between two fleurs-de-lys azure

Complexity count is an allowable 8.

A step from period practice for non-eagles displayed, but that's the only one.

Conrad von Zollern [Tiramisu HI] (Conrad von Zollern) at 2018-05-25 11:53:13
Blazon-fu: "Azure, in fess two ravens displayed respectant argent and on a chief embattled Or a rose gules between two fleurs-de-lys azure."

No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-25 14:13:36
My blazon is between those of Iago and Conrad: "Azure, two ravens displayed respectant argent and on a chief embattled Or a rose gules between two fleurs-de-lys azure." No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-05-25 14:22:18
Why no 'in fess'? I didn't think there was a default arrangement for 2 charges.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-25 16:31:57
I've often seen that declared, and declared it myself without incurring correction. (If I should find two birds displayed in period arms, I'd expect to see them one above the other, but in that respect my little knowledge is doubtless a dangerous thing.) So I think we do need

Azure, in fess two ravens displayed respectant argent, on a chief embattled Or a rose gules between two fleurs-de-lys azure

Also, because somebody's got to say it eventually: SFPP for non-eagle birds displayed, but I think no others.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-05-31 15:21:16
Concur with the reblazon.


Thus ends the May Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 1 Name and 2 Devices. There are a total of 3 items submitted on this letter.

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