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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2018-05-03

Greetings. Here are the submissions I received in April

1: Aalina Godwin -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Alane Godwin(3/2016)

Vert, a bend sinister sable fimbriated overall a stag passant argent

Submitter has no desire as to gender.

Aalina - s.n. Aline. Aalina dated to 1154-1189 in Feminine Given Names in "A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek http://heraldry.sca.org/names/reaheyAG.html

Godwin - s.n. Godwin [RW] Walter Godwin dated to 1177

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVLW-314C : 13 December 2015

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 18:32:28
Submission clear of OSCAR's guess, <Alane Godwin>, by changes to at least two syllables: "i" ≠ "a", and the same with whatever their sounds may be, and "a" ≠ "e", all the more if the latter is silent. We therefore don't need to consider "Aa" vs. "A".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:34:38
Given name doc checks out. Couldn't find the reference for the surname, but found other Family Search entries for Godwin with dates in (late) period.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 18:19:44
Unfortunately, the Reaney & Wilson citation is actually Walter <Godwin'>, which Mistress ffride tells us is scribal for <Godwine>. Whether that supports the desired spelling I do not know. Safer to cite

Godwin: R&W sn. Godwin, etc., Nicholas <Godwyn> 1239; "i/y switches are common ... at this time" (i.e., 1290; http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/11/15-11lar.html#70, Roger Aylward Bagley, alternate name Jon Gylbert)
The surname link offered leads to Joan K. Goodwin, b. 1193, d. 1997, then buried in Alabama--either a vampire or a typo. If we must cite a record from that source, multiple choices are indeed available, e.g.,
Agnes <Godwin> married John Gybsone, 1567, Broughton, Lincoln, England, M02687-3, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFWL-5XJ.
I believe only the indented paragraphs need be sent up.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-14 13:38:04
Owing to problems navigating the article, plus some questions about correctness, I strongly advise that the given name be documented from the source material rather than Talan's article, i.e.:

R&W, s.n. Alin, has a citation of Aalina from the reign of Henry II (1154-1189), along with a note that it is probably a diminutive of the Old French name Aalis.

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-03 17:21:46
Isn't there a SFPP for an overall charge with a fimbriated ordinary? My google-fu is failing to find the precedent. In any case, it'd be the only SFPP.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-05-04 10:02:24
"There is a step from period practice for the use of a fimbriated ordinary with an overall charge." [Salmey of the Fenix. December 2017 via the Middle]

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:00:04
It well may be that not all of us know Google's undocumented AROUND operator. It locates stretches where one element (it can be a single word or a quoted phrase) is close to another element. You set the maximum number of words between them in parentheses. So at http://morsulus.org/, entering
step AROUND(15) "fimbriated ordinary"
or
step AROUND(15) overall
will each get a few dozen hits, including some on the precedent desired here.

http://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2010/10/around-has-always-been-around.html is a bit more complete than I've been.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-14 13:43:54
Kewl. Adding to my notes. I teach a research class, and I am stunned at the number of people who don't even know the minus operator to trim bad hits. Even people who use Google every day don't necessarily know how to use it properly.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-14 17:10:00
My issues had far more to do with dealing with a 6 year old with a stomach virus lol

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:35:13
No conflicts found. Passant stags are blazoned as trippant. See the PicDic entry for "Deer".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 18:28:03
We've registered stag(s) passant more than a few times, the most recent for Eadyth Woderose, Feb 2017. But the more erudite use, and several times more common in the O&A, is indeed

Vert, a bend sinister sable fimbriated overall a stag trippant argent


2: Calvin Tittle -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Calvin - found in Family Search Historical Records

Calvin Brian, married on 03 April 1621 in Chesire, England Batch #M03657-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVM7-3NG

Tittle - found in Family Search Historical Records

"England Marriages, 1538-1973," database, Family Search https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVGW-5HQ 10 February 2018 Rich tittle and Johan Dawson, 12 Jun 1593; citing Freiston, london, England, reference, index based upon date collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 432,491 Batch #M02839-2

Name Comments:

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2018-05-09 16:10:48
docs check out, no conflict found

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:35:27
Docs check out.


3: Cordeilla verch Rosser -New Name & New Device

Or, a celtic cross and on a bordure azure four roses saltire Or seeded gules barbed vert

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Spelling (Cordeilla) most important.

See attached documentation

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-29/17-48-58_Cordeilla_verch_Rosser_name_doc_1.jpg

Name Comments:

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-14 13:51:33
I wrote the docs for this, so let me know if there are any questions.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-14 14:47:26
Having just wrestled with more transcription typos than was fun at other submissions: I urge that the links (along with the data summaries) be placed in the headmatter where we can click them and make sure they work!

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:09:18
With our usual capitalization, adding a word, and in our usual (though not invariable) sequence:

Or, a Celtic cross and on a bordure azure four roses in saltire Or barbed vert seeded gules

The last four words will either disappear or not for reasons I do not understand, and I'm not certain we can place charges in saltire on a bordure. But I'm sure that Wreath finds deleting words faster than typing them, so I propose this blazon.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:36:15
Gerard's blazon looks good to me.


4: Diarmuid mac Brain -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2016, via Ansteorra.

Or, a raven migrant to chief purpure charged with a torque Or and in cheif two drinking horns fesswise purpure

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:26:01
Based on the very recent blazon at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2018/02/18-02lar.html#121, Finn the Black, with a torc opening to chief, and adopting the shorthand at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/horn/, I get:

Or, a raven migrant to chief purpure charged with a torque opening to base Or and in chief a pair of drinking horns purpure

There is a step from period practice for the use of a migrant bird, but I don't see a second step here.

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-05-09 07:38:47
The horns are addorsed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-09 23:45:45
True, and Mistholme says that's default for a pair.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:36:47
No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 18:30:12
I (and I'm sure our Sovereigns) could wish the horns not touching the top of the shield, but I believe that will at worst incur an artist's note.


5: Ellen de Grae -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Elena Edgar(6/2006), Ella Anne de Kari (3/2006), Elwynn de Grai (9/1984)

Quarterly purpure and Or semy of arrows inverted, a throwing axe counterchanged

Ellyn - http://medieval.scotland.org/KMO/AnglicizedIrish/Feminine.shtml

de Grae - http://medieval.scotland.org/KMO/Woulfelsortedbygaelic_G2.shtml

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-05-04 01:55:11
I'm not sure whether the submission is meant to include "Ellen" or "Ellyn". They both appear in Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada's Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents as attested forms of a feminine given name, "Ellen" recorded 146 times between 1548 and 1629 and "Ellyn" 7 times between 1584 and 1601 (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Feminine.shtml).



The submitted "de Grae" appears in the same author's 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe as a modern header form. The attested forms listed, which date to between 1588 and 1625, are "de Grey" and "de Graye" (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByGaelicRoot_G2.shtml).

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-13 16:08:07
Submitter wants Ellyn

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-14 14:42:15
Concur on the surname spelling. This is Woulfe's headword, but not an attested period spelling. In addition to Woulfe's circa 1600 spellings of de Grey and de Graye, R&W, s.n. Gray, has 'de Grai' 1086, and 'de Gray' 1196, described as "from Graye (Calvados)". Family Search has one 'de Grae' from the Netherlands from a marriage record of 1634, but upon examination of the original record, I think it is a misreading of de Graue.

Withycombe, s.n. Ellen has Ellyn, 1507. Ellyn de Gray or Ellyn de Graye are fine.

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-19 18:52:12
Talking with the client she would prefer Graye if Grae is not useable

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-03 17:23:20
The axe is a bit hard to identify.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:27:42
Dividing the haft more evenly would help greatly.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:30:17
So that two quarters don't come out plain purpure, this needs to be

Quarterly purpure and Or all semy of arrows inverted, a throwing axe counterchanged

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-05-09 07:39:50
I find the axe completely lost within the hail of arrows. I could not distinguish the haft at all.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:37:29
No conflicts found. I too found this a bit hard to make out.

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-19 18:56:13
What needs to be done for the device to make it more clear?

I am the submitting herald and trying to help the client get it going before return at kingdom level.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-19 19:01:22
Perhaps not quite as many arrows, or perhaps centering the axe haft on the partition line as Gerard suggested.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-19 19:39:46
Preferably both, IMO. It may help to realize that cut-from-cloth is not the only correct way of rendering semy of charges: See Eowyn Amberdrake's seminal "Essay on Seme" at http://heraldry.sca.org/armory/semy/Seme.html.

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-20 13:07:02
So obviously a very crude drawing, but I want to make sure I have the right idea before completely redrawing

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-20 17:46:08
That could work, with the haft sufficiently wide. I'd still rather see the haft half-and-half, but not if you don't like it.


6: Gassion de Beaumarchais -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 2002, via Ansteorra.

Per fess enarched rayonny sable and gules, two mullets of eight points and a phoenix within a bordure embattled Or

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-03 17:24:34
The size difference between the mullets and the phoenix make it hard to see them as coprimary.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:38:33
But Appendix I insists that they must be considered so. I believe this is a problem.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-05-03 21:09:05
This is not a New Device but a resubmission for a Laurel return.
[April 2015 LoAR, R-Ansteorra] Gassion de Beaumarchais. Device. Per fess enarched rayonny counterermine and Or, in base a phoenix gules.
This device is returned for conflict with the device of Stafngrimr of Agaricus, reblazoned elsewhere on this letter as Per fess enarched rayonny sable and Or, a phoenix issuant from base gules. There is a DC for changing the tincture of half of the field but none for the fact that the phoenix is issuant from base in one case and not the other.

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-05-09 07:45:46
Concur this violates SENA A2C3 which states in part, "Elements must be drawn at an appropriate size for their role in an armorial submission and must be generally large enough to be identified as charges. Charges that are too big or too small may blur the difference between charge groups."

Also, given that the line is enarched, this may fall afoul of precedent:

[a chevron rompu rayonny to chief] This device is returned for combining two complex lines of division, which has consistently been grounds for return since at least 1992. [Cristine Tailleur, 04/2007, R-Calontir]

[a chevron rayonny to base] It was suggested that this be reblazoned as ... a point pointed rayonny ... However, that would cause the device to be returned for using two complex lines of division on a single charge. A point pointed rayonny is no more acceptable that a chief triangular rayonny is. [Elianora Feverel, 02/2007, A-Trimaris]

A point pointed is would fall under the same constraints as a chief triangular, thus drawn as a point pointed engrailed this would be returned for using two complex lines of division. [Mairgreg ingen Chailtigirn, 05/2006, R-Calontir]

Iago ab Adam at 2018-05-09 07:54:40
'[a chief enarched and invected] To quote from the LoAR of June 1997, "While it is true that lines could be enarched and also embattled, engrailed, et cetera, the enarching was basically to show the curvature of the shield". Enarched lines are an exception to the general practice of disallowing the combination of two different complex lines of partition into one line of partition, so this enarched and invected chief may be accepted. [Justinian the Gentle, May 02, A-Outlands]'

Gassion de Beaumarchais at 2018-05-11 08:07:25
"Rayonny" Enarched is an allowed exception to line complexity rules. It is treated as a single line treatment.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:38:24
Agree that the per fess line needs to be moved down a bit, and perhaps the rayonny line needs to be lowered in amplitude, so that the mullets and the phoenix may be drawn more nearly the same size. No conflicts found.

Gassion de Beaumarchais at 2018-05-11 07:52:30
Reading the comments thus far, I think I understand the issues needing to be addressed. I've re-drawn my device with what I think are appropriate corrections. Please advise.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-11 14:48:58
I always have one piece of advice for charges on sable: Color the mullets' outlines the same as their centers, to make those in the colored version as large as those in the b&w. This seems to be permitted by our Sovereigns.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-11 18:12:09
Agree!


7: Gouen atte Fyrthe -New Name & New Device

Emine chevron garb Or, two battle axe Or on an azure field

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Meaning most important.
Spelling most important.

Oxford "A Dictionary of English Surnames" reviced edition pg 169 "atte Firthe"

Yorkshire subsidy rolls, 1379 "Gouen Fyrthe"

see documentation

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-05-01/21-28-26_Gouen_atte_Fyrthe_name_doc_1.jpg

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-05-01/21-31-07_Gouen_atte_Fyrthe_device_doc_1.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-05-04 02:48:15
What is the source cited for "Gouen"? The attached image is clearly not of a 14th century subsidy roll. It resembles one of the lists of taxpayers transcribed from The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journals hosted by GENUKI, but I found the list for Allerton Bywater, and "Gouen Frythe" does not appear on it (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kippax/KippaxSubsidyRoll).

Is the "Oxford, 'A Dictionary of English Surnames'" referenced in the submission Reaney and Wilson?

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2018-05-09 16:46:04
I concur with Coblaith that this is not acceptable documentation. I also checked both the GENUKI site and the other sites listing the Yorkshire Subsidy listing and found that none of these site have the actual documentation rather they have a listing of where the document can be found in The National Archives. Having a listing is like a old card catalog in the library; it tells you where it is but it is not the documentation. I did not find the name requested either. Since we can not verify the documentation this submission must be returned for additional work

Device Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-03 17:25:36
The chevron here is far too low and should be redrawn to be balanced on the fess line. Since a redraw is going to be necessary anyway, I'd suggest using more "OSCAR-friendly" tinctures.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-03 17:30:48
They're OSCAR friendly - they correct just fine. the fact that they are colored pencil is another issue entirely that must be addressed.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-05-03 17:40:47
Fair enough :-)

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-05-04 03:04:44
I think we need to be wary of SENA A.6.E (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A6E), here. I don't know whether Thomas Firth, of Hartford Lodge, Northwich, co. Chester, esq., is less important than a clan chief, but he was important enough to have his arms listed in Burke's Encyclopædia of Heraldry (https://archive.org/stream/encyclopdiaofher00burk#page/347), which could hardly be called an "obscure reference book". His arms differed from the submission only in that the chevron was engrailed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 23:15:58
On the other hand, I cannot believe that "a significant number of SCA members" would know the Firth arms without looking them up in that reference book reasonably well known to heralds but obscure to the general populace. For anyone like me who cannot make the Burke link above show a readable text, I append the first image from https://books.google.com/books?id=9hFXAAAAYAAJ s.n. Firth.

On the third hand, you can buy exactly the submission--well, better proportioned and drawn, although with pretty bad ermine, and adding the crest blazoned in Burke--on a mug from Zazzle for less than $ 25 including minimum shipping. Second image below from https://www.zazzle.com/firth_coat_of_arms_coffee_mug-168034610085522839.

I hope the kingdom Submissions Herald(s) can counsel submitter on heraldic ethics regardless of what the letter of our law requires.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 22:42:41
Call this

Azure, a chevron ermine between two battle axes and a garb Or

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-05-09 07:51:41
Current rules do not check for conflict with mundane arms... true. However, in this case, the name combined with the exact arms presume.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:40:48
What you have shown us is a product of a heraldic "bucket shop" as evidenced by the scroll at the bottom with the family name on it. If this is from one of the less dishonest ones, the arms may have belonged to someone with the surname "Firth". Some of the other ones just pick something at random. In any case, it's not evidence that the client inherited it, or even when it was originally granted. So, this is no evidence of registerability. I note that in the submitted version, the chevron is well below the midpoint and would need to be moved up to divide the field more nearly in half. Also note that the line drawing is not the same as the colored version. Agree with Gerard's blazon.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 18:34:52
The choice by the bucket shop involved is from Burke; see Coblaith Muimnech's post above.


8: Robert Carrot -New Name & New Device

Sable a carrot Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (The meaning must somehow be related to carrot(s)) most important.

Robin Carrot

The pattern "given + byname" for Modern English names is attested in SENA Appendix A

Robin - Batch M00009-1 "English Marriages, 1538-1973," database FamilySearch

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZJ-852 10 December 2014 Robin Cooper and Margret Brantingarn 19 Aug 1592, citing Saint Oswald, Durham, Durham, England

Carrot - Batch P00021-1 "English Births and Christenings. 1538-1973"

database FamilySearch https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7SM-L38 Thomas Carrot 22 Jul 1565 citing AUCKLAND SAINT ANDREW, Durham, England

Correction to Name (2018-May-10 09:05:18): Submission is for <Robin Carrot>, not <Robert>.

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-05-03 15:49:29
Docs check out with a correction. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZJ-852, batch C60286-3 belongs to Maria Secilia christened in Mexico, 1756. Robin Cooper's url https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLZJ-652

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2018-05-09 16:52:58
found no conflict as presented

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:41:22
It's not clear to me whether the client wants Robert or Robin.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-10 09:43:15
He wants Robin - the listing is a typo.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:41:41
No conflicts found.


9: Vanesa de Verona -New Name Change

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Venanza da Verona(4/2001)

OSCAR NOTE: 'Old Item' should contain the former primary name. The form that is there is not a registered name.

Old Item: Venanza de Verona, to be released.
Sound (Vanesa) most important.

Family Search Historical Records:

Vanesa - female, 20 Sep 1577, Santa Maria, Orfans Gerona Spain Batch#C87881-1

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F55D-F8R : 11 February 2018

Verona - Place name

Spanish and Italian names can be mixed per Appendix C

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-05-03 16:22:37
The Vanesa doc checks out. Her name was registered as Venanza *da* Verona in April of 2001 in Ansteorra.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-05 23:37:52
Which makes me realize that as submitted and documented we are mixing Spanish and Italian in the single phrase <de Verona>--"de" is a Spanish preposition, not an Italian one--which is forbidden!

Fortunately, the period Spanish name of Verona in period is <Verona>, as in the image below from Goncalo de Illescas, Historia pontifical y catholica (1583), https://books.google.com/books?id=xSpSAAAAcAAJ, Vol I, p. 290, mentioning a decree of the Synod or Council of Verona, Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Verona). So the name as submitted is wholly Spanish.

1: Image 1

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-05-06 13:45:36
De is Latin and is found in many examples of Italian names.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-06 17:21:27
I stand corrected. But isn't all-Spanish simpler anyway?

Christian Jorgensen af Hilsonger at 2018-05-09 17:01:45
how about using this https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5N8-B7C : 11 February 2018), Francisca Martinez De Verona, ; citing Fuentealbilla, Albacete, Spain, reference 2:R380PF; FHL microfilm 1,279,587. Batch C89145-1....

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-10 09:42:21
Given name doc checks out.



OSCAR counts 6 Names, 1 Name Change and 7 Devices. There are a total of 14 items submitted on this letter.

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