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Ansteorra Kingdom ILoI dated 2018-04-02

Good day, Gentles. This letter contains submissions from Gulf Wars XVII

Letter Comments:

Alisone McCay (Star) at 2018-05-10 18:48:41
Please watch your words in commentary here. This is to help educate people not demean them.

1: Aki Seulf -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Ása lúfa(7/2001), Ashley of Fife (5/2013)

Per pale ragully barry wavy azure and argent and azure in sinister wolf"s head caboshed argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Aki - Viking Answer Lady http://www.vikinganswerlady.com

Old Danish. Frequently found in Denmark

Seulf - Reaney & Wilson pg 399

Headword- Self, Selfe Anglo Saxon - Seulf

DB: 1066 Robert filius Seulfi

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-04-05 00:39:43
R&W sn. Acke
Aky prior 1168-75

R&W sn. Self
Seulf 1066
Robert filius Seulfi 1185

SENA Appendix A says that unmarked patronymics require no further documentation for Old English names.

Do we know if the i/y switch for English applies to Old English names, too? Because "Aki Seulf" or "Aki Seulfi" would be pretty cool names.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:44:39
Given name doc checks out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:27:31
A more precise link would be http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml

No conflicts found

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 00:59:15
The complex line of division is really hard to identify here.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-03 02:28:35
Difficult enough that I would suggest a redraw. Without the complexity of the LoD, this looks marshalled.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-06 23:48:43
I do not believe this design can be drawn so that the line is identifiable except perhaps by placing every other azure crenel so that all three sides are over an argent area. But that means running into http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A1C, "Designs which depend on careful alignment of items in a way that cannot be reliably blazoned using standard period heraldic terms will not be registered."

I don't see how anything less drastic than replacing one but not the other azure with some other color can work.

Modar Neznanich (Volk) at 2018-04-03 16:00:19
Unfortunately you lose visibility of some of the crenelations in the raguly line where they overlap the azure bars.

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-04-17 11:13:45
Concur. I do not identify that as raguly.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:45:06
Agree with Iago and Sea Stag.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 17:11:50
I suspect that a complex line dividing a field where the two fields share 50% identity of tincture is going to be an impossibility. This happens to be a particularly bad example, but I'm not sure, say, "Per pale engrailed barry gules and Or and gules" would be any more likely to be identifiable. It's going to leave odd bits terminating in other-than-straight edges. It's certainly possible to line up the wave length of a complex line such that the pieces have like terminations, but that can't be relied on for a cohesive design.

Vettorio Antonello at 2018-04-24 09:00:43
Concur with the above commenters, the line of division is unidentifiable in the color version.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:19:09
Beautiful raguly division line in the line art. Unfortunately completely lost in the color emblazon. Hope the fix is as gorgeous as the original line art!

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:23:15
I agree that the contrast isn't enough, nor do I think there is a way to make it enough.

I see no conflicts


2: Artur Wolfe -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Wolfe: Marriage Thomas Horneby. spouse's name Mary Wolfe 18 Jan 1572 Sainte Giles Cripplegate, london, london, England

M02243-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ5W-LX1

Marriage John Sheirs spouse's name Alice Wolfe 20 Jun 1568 Saint Mary the Great, Cambridge, Cambridge, England

M13064-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJBT-KT1

Marriage Robert Wolfe spouse's name Annis Hamly 02 Dec 1570 Saint Mabyn, Cornwall, England

M00205-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ1J-9QZ

Artur: Artur Clarke, England Deaths and Burials 15381991, 15 Jul 1576, Otham, Kent, England, Family Search Batch I01453-4

Name Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-03 02:32:53
I is not normally an accepted IGI batch number. The records from the FamilySearch Historical Records that acceptable are from the following Batches: B, C, J, K, M (except M17 and M18), or P.
Try this one:
Name: Artur Cooke
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 24 Jul 1639
Burial Place: Bolingbroke, Lincoln, England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number B05343-4
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHBJ-Z28

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-06 23:50:13
For those of us who like mnemonics: CranBerry Jelly Keeps Mary Pretty (unless she's 17 or 18).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 19:41:20
Docs check out, with Sea Stag's information.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:43:52
Assuming we use Sea Stag's source, the links check out

No conflicts found


3: Daniel Mac Thámhais -New Name

Daniel - s,n, biblical name borrowed by several early Irish Clerics - O'Corrain & MacGuire, Irish names p70

Mac Thámhais - s.n. (mac) Cavish - A rare name found in County Cavan akin to the Scottish MacTavish - MacLnsaght; The Surnames of Ireland p 41

MacTavish - from Mac Támhais, Doncan M'Thamais 1355 - Black; The Surnames of Scotland p 566

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-04-04 04:53:23
MacLysaght is a poor source, and should be avoided. "The focus of this book is on modern usage; in particular the spellings, both of English and Gaelic forms are modern." (heraldry.sca.org/admin.html#APPENDIXF) Fortunately, Black ought to suffice for the byname.

If the intent is to submit a Gaelic name, you need to use diacritics either everywhere they're appropriate, or nowhere (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2004/02/04-02lar.html#179). As the standard Old Irish Gaelic and Middle Irish Gaelic form of the given name is Daniél (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Daniel.shtml), there's a good chance the sovereigns will require either "Daniél Mac Thámhais" or "Daniel Mac Thamhais".

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 17:27:34
Well, maybe. However, since we horribly allow people to combine English and Gaelic in the same name, this could be interpreted as English Daniel with a Gaelic byname phrase. In fact, if submitter desires an entirely Irish name, he's still okay, as the annals examples do NOT have any fadas in Daniel, even when accents appear in the same citation, e.g. Four Masters A, M768.3 Daniel ua Foilene, scribhneóir Lethabhai. Other annals spellings include Dainel and Daníel, so when the fada appears, sometimes it's on the I rather than the E. In this case, the "standard" form is erroneous for period orthography; you will see Daniél in the English translations.

Woulfe, s.n. Mac Thámhais has anglicized spellings near 1600 of M'Cawyshe and M'Cawys, so the patronymic is supported in this form (i.e. Tamas rather than Tomas). The Mac shouldn't ideally be capitalized, but Daniel mac Thámhais is perfectly consistent with the orthography of the Irish annals.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:49:58
I see no conflict


4: Diderick von Schatten -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister azure and sable a bend sinister bevilled argent

Diderick - German male given name "Diderick Gelinck" christened 1639 Family Search batch #C98571-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR87-LBC : 10 February 2018

Schatten - German byname "Agnes Schatten" married 1586 Family Search batch #M95993-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J45P-FXW : 11 February 2018

von - Standard German preposition indicating "from" in locative byname Schatter= a shady place per Bahlow

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 19:40:00
Given name doc checks out. Family Search shows a lot of Schattens but no von Schattens.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 17:46:50
Dyderich appears in 15th c. Arnsburg, so with the common I/Y exchange, this name is supportable much earlier than the IGI cite. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/germmasc/arnsburg15.html

Schatten is a common German noun meaning 'shadow'. It is not a period placename that I can find. Building a name phrase meaning 'of the shadow' would be "von der Schatten" and highly unlikely. "per Bahlow" is somewhat mystifying, as Bahlow does not have a headword for Schatten, and most of the names in Schatt- are marked as either forms of Schatz 'darling, treasure' or Schottler 'gatekeeper'. We need a headword or a page number to check docs from a non-photocopy source.

Diderick Schatten is registerable.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:55:45
Links work to document Diderick Schatten.

I see no conflicts for Diderick von Schatten or Diderick Schatten

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-06 23:55:11
Needs a comma after the field statement:

Per bend sinister azure and sable, a bend sinister bevilled argent

(For possible future reference: See "The bevil made me do it", Figure A, on http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1992/08/cl.html.)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:47:53
Sorry! Wrong place.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:49:04
No conflicts found.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:22:41
Striking and simple device! Nice submission!

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 17:54:09
I see no conflict.


5: Diederick van Sitteren -New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of February 28, 2018 as submitted.

Maubee Knott

Maubee - Allowance of surname-as-Given name in SENA Found on FamilySearch.org

English Births & Christenings, 1538-1975, batch C02774-2 (Batch C is acceptable in SENA) - Ame Maubee, Christening date 23 June 1576

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGQ1-PJ8 : 11 February 2018, Ame Maubee, 23 Jun 1576

Knott - Found on FamilySearch.org English Births and Christenings, 1538-1975, batch P00907-1 (Batch P is acceptable in SENA) = Renalde Knott, Christening date 29 June 1547

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQP4-QL1 : 11 February 2018, Knott, 1733

Alternate Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-04-04 14:27:00
There's nothing in SENA about FamilySearch batch numbers.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-04-05 00:41:33
It's Appendix H of the Administrative Handbook, as per the January 2018 LoAR:
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2018/01/18-01cl.html#2
"Effective as of the date of issuance of this letter, the following name sources are added to Appendix H. Copies or scans of these sources do not need to be provided in the OSCAR packet for submissions that cite them, as long as the URL is given.

Records from the FamilySearch Historical Records that are from the following Batches: B, C, J, K, M (except M17 and M18), or P...."

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:49:55
Docs check out. I dislike the use of surnames as given names, but it's documented. Using the practice to form a joke name crosses the line for me. Presumably this is connected to item 12 with the joke name May Bee.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:03:48
I've tried to find this practice and I haven't found it documented. Can you point it out to me, please?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-05-09 21:47:49
Other heralds won't always be near to find items. You need to learn to search for rulings.
[September 2012 Cover Letter]
From Pelican: Late Period English Given Names Derived from Family Names
For the last two years, we have registered given names derived from late period English family names, based on a well attested pattern. Commenters have provided dozens of examples of this pattern for masculine names, as well as several examples of this pattern for feminine names (including Smith as a feminine given name). These examples are found both in the IGI index and in Withycombe, which mentions a grey period example of a woman named Essex.
Various commenters have called for us to restrict the registration of these given names to submissions that are completely late period English names. However, this limitation would be a sharp departure from current policy.
First, we would have no grounds to place this limitation on attested given names, which would include Smith, Leach, White, Bainbridge, Guildford, and Richardson, among others. A system which would allow Smith as a given name to be registered more easily than Ashley would create confusion. Second, by long precedent we treat constructed name elements exactly as attested ones. Therefore, we will continue to register these constructed given names in any context suitable for an attested late period English given name.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-09 21:56:32
The Ansteorran internal letters generally encourage questions of this nature. Your introductory statement is inappropriate. At the very least, you could point out how one might go about learning to search for rulings.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 00:23:43
It turns out that entering
"surnames as given names"
including the quotes at http://morsulus.org actually finds the desired precedent. (I was surprised.)

In other cases, however, an exact-quote string is less useful. Then it's essential to know Google's undocumented AROUND operator. It locates stretches where one element (it can be a single word or a quoted phrase) is close to another element. You set the maximum number of words between them in parentheses. (http://searchresearch1.blogspot.com/2010/10/around-has-always-been-around.html is a bit more complete than I've been.)

So entering
step AROUND(15) "fimbriated ordinary"
or
step AROUND(15) overall
is a good way to find instances of "There is a step from period practice for the use of a fimbriated ordinary with an overall charge."

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-10 08:46:25
Thank you.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-05-10 18:23:23
More teaching and fewer unhelpful comments if you please.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 17:52:01
Sheesh, they didn't look very hard to support the joke.

Name Willus. Maby Residence Place Norwich, Norfolk, England Gender Male Christening Date 05 Jun 1540 Christening Date (Original) 5 Jun 1540 Christening Place St. George-Tombland, Norwich, Norfolk, England Father's Name Johnis. Mabye C00079-5

That entry supports Maby Knott and Mabye Knott.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:04:44
I've seen no conflict


6: Duncan of Sileby -Resub Appeal of Laurel Return of Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of November 03, 2015 as submitted.

Argent, a brown bison statant sinister proper, an orle vert

Previous submission - https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=59208

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 01:04:00
The word 'to' is missing from the blazon:

Argent, a brown bison statant to sinister proper, an orle vert.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 17:10:34
Duncan Sileby registered February 2016. This appears to be a resubmission of a Laurel return.

[February 2016 LoAR, R-Ansteorra] Duncan Sileby. Device. Argent, on a mullet of four greater and twelve lesser points sable, a wisent's head cabossed argent.
This device is returned for redraw, for violating SENA A2C2 which states "Elements must be drawn to be identifiable." Commenters were unable to identify the type of beast's head used as tertiary charge.
On resubmission, if the submitter still chooses to use a mullet of four greater and twelve lesser points, they should provide arguments in favor of registering it, as it follows no known pattern of period usage. We allow mullets of alternating large and small points, such as compass stars, with a step from period practice.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-04-04 20:43:07
This can't be an appeal as an appeal has to be identical to the original returned submission. If there is any changes to the submission it is a resub. Also an appeal needs to state the reason why the submission is being appealed.

from the Admin handbook on Appeals E. Right of Appeal - A submitter shall have the right to appeal any return to Laurel; to be treated as an appeal, the submission must be identical to the returned submission. All appeals should be supported by new documentation, other proof that the original submission was returned in error or compelling evidence that the submission was not properly considered at the time of return. Appeals must be submitted through the appropriate heraldic officers specified for such actions by the submitter's kingdom of residence. Such officers must forward the appeal in a timely manner, with or without recommendation, to Laurel. Neither local nor kingdom heraldic officers may return appeals. If Laurel rules against the appeal, a second appeal may be made directly to the Board of Directors. Any substantial change to the submission requires it to be treated as a resubmission rather than an appeal (both for purposes of required fees and for purposes of forwarding policies).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:50:23
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's blazon correction.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:24:39
Please increase the space between the edge of the field and the orle, and beef up the orle a bit.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:11:43
The orle is too thin in my opinion.

I see no conflict


7: Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia -New Alternate Name

OSCAR thinks the name is registered as Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia in July of 2004, via Ansteorra.

Kit Kynge

No major changes.

Kit - 1374 Feminine Given Names in "A Dictionary of English Surnames" Talan Gwynek http://heraldry.sca.org/names/reanyHZ.html

Kynge - "Surnames in 15th Century York" Karen Larsdatter http://heraldry.sca.org/names/york15/surnames-alphabetical.htm

Per PN.4.B.1 Kynge is equivalent to the example given "Visconti", the protected Old English totle is Kyng, which has the same number of differences as Visconte

Alternate Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:52:03
Couldn't find the article cited for the given name, but the surname doc checks out.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:02:28
The cited source s.n. Katharine in fact has <Kit> 1379. The info I've underlined needs to be added to the item's headmatter, and the bolded date used to correct the typo or misreading there.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 18:11:35
"Kynge is equivalent to the example given "Visconti""

No, no it isn't. The alteration to Visconti in Italian changes the word from viscount (visconte) to 'of the family of the viscount'. Terminal Es come and go in English, sometimes for case changes, and sometimes just for laughs. The header in R&W is King, Kinge, Kings. The question should be, is <kynge> a plausible period English spelling for king? Because it is. (See the 15th c. work, The Dethe of the Kynge of Scotis, concerning the murder of James I of Scotland in 1437, also called The dethe of James Kynge of Scotis, one of the reasons we steadfastly don't let people be James King.) http://name.umdl.umich.edu/deathjas

Personally, I know King is a totally normal surname in period, with no pretensions or claims. There are tons of heralds listed in period as so-and-so King or le Roy. But we have, to this point, declined to register King as a surname, and this spelling is no different.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:12:30
And unlike its approval for <Regina the Laundress>, where the byname takes away the sting of the given name, http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN4B1, "Use of Elements that Appear to Be Titles", is inflexible about bynames. Its final example:

... no submitter may register a byname meaning king or princess ...
Pimpernell is correct: In this case, the documentable medieval mindset is superseded by the Society mindset; the submitter needs to choose a different surname.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:28:54
The Online Middle English dictionary is riddled with period examples of the spelling <Kynge> used to describe a ruler. Image attached for examples as I'm commenting on my phone.

1: Image 1

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:18:13
First link was broken (404 error), second link worked.

I found no conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 00:26:17
First link should be http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyHZ.html. That should be corrected in the headmatter here. [Post edited to correct typo! ;-> ]


8: Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia -New Alternate Name

OSCAR thinks the name is registered as Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia in July of 2004, via Ansteorra.

Stepan Tvorimir Ivanich Domazhirov syn Novgoradski

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (12th century Russian) most important.

All from Wickenden http://heraldry.sca.org/names/pan/

Stephan (12th century)

Tvorimir (12th century)

Ivanich (1176)

Domazhirov - 1476 from Domazhir (12-13th cent)

Name is <christened name> <Slavic name> <christened patronymic> < Slavic patronymic> <locative> per SENS Appendix A

Alternate Name Comments:

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2018-04-02 20:07:59
To clarify, the name is "Stepan Tvorimir Ivanich Domazhirov syn Novgorodski", there is no "a" in "Novgorodski".

Additionally Domazhir appears as both a given name and a patronymic in 12th century Novgorod per "Russian Personal Names: Name Frequency in the Novgorod Birch-Bark Letters" by Predslava Vydrina https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/predslava/bbl/men.html

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 18:15:18
Also note you have Stepan in the submission line and Stephan in the body of the docs. Assuming the latter is a typo?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:52:22
Docs check out as corrected.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 19:11:23
SENA says these elements are individually possible, not all at once. Basically SENA is just inaccurately parroting Paul's grammar section, and even Paul in his most ridiculous examples does not have this many elements.

Paul has no examples of a person recorded by both a Christian and a Slavic name, also bearing patronymics using two given names for the father. He mentions both of the father's names can be used to form a patronymic, but he attaches them only to a Christian name for the son, e.g. Vasilii Ivanov Gubin, Vasilii Ivanov, or Vasilii Gubin.

However, regarding the usage of -vich in names popular in Novgorod, he specifically says, "If the father had two given names, the son used only one of his father's names in this construction, usually the "Christian" one (i.e., our Vasilii would probably be named, Vasilii Ivanovich, but he could also have been named in theory, Vasilii Gubinich). The use of syn or the genitive "a" also did not occur."

I also don't find the locative appropriate with quite this many begats. Paul's examples have either ONLY a locative byname, or the locative and ONE patronymic element, with or without syn. (There is a Tvorimirits noble house in the Great Novgorod.)

I would also think the attested Novgorodov {Sidor Novgorodov (15th Century) [Gra 276] ("from Novgorod")} is superior to positing Novgorodskii (Paul's examples have the double I), but it's certainly not impossible. I do have a question about order; several of Paul's locative examples, and the only one from the 12th century, appears BEFORE the patronymic, David Kievlianin Zorynich (1167) [Mor 92] ("from Kiev"). So with the desired elements and Paul's grammar, these are some three-element possibilities (there are lots of two-element possibilities also): Stepan Tvorimir Ivanich Stepan Tvorimir syn Ivanov Stepan Tvorimir Ivanov syn Stepan Ivanov Domazhirov Stepan Ivanov syn Domazhirov Stepan Novgorodov Ivanich

Anything else requires more examples and documentation, and specifically counter-examples to Paul's statements regarding the proposed construction.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-19 00:33:25
I suspect the URL in the headmatter is a typo for http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/. And under http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/sp.html, there is indeed no <Stephan> but only the submitted <Stepan>.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:35:36
The link submitted does not work (404 error).

Using Michael's link (which looks like it's the intended), I was able to find the submitted Stepan, not the mentioned Stephan.

I see no conflict


9: Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia -New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2004, via Ansteorra.

Yi Jun

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (Joseon Korean) most important.

Yi - is an alternate translation of "Ol" that is closer to the Korean pronounciation commonly spelled Lee, this name was common among both royal noble and non-noble families through period. It is the second most common family name in South Korea (see attached documentation)

Jun - was the given name of Heo jun 1537/39-1615, a well known male court physician in the Joseon court (see attached documentation)

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-02/05-49-03_Yi_Jun_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-02/05-49-04_Yi_Jun_name_doc_2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-02/05-49-06_Yi_Jun_name_doc_3.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-02/05-49-08_Yi_Jun_name_doc_4.jpg

Alternate Name Comments:

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2018-04-02 20:16:41
Again to clarify, the original Korean name is "이" in hangul, and Yi is the second most common transliteration behind the more modern Lee. Since neither are the standard transliteration in McCune-Rauscher (which would be "I", not at all conducive to correct pronunciation) I am following the Korean tradition of using the transliteration Yi in historical contexts.

There is a dearth of readily accessible English language resources for historical Korean names, but Heo Jun authored a medical text that has its own UNESCO listing, which establishes that it was published in 1613 (solidly within the grey area, given that he was an adult when it was published) and includes the same transliteration of his name that I am seeking to register in its listing. http://www.unesco.org/new/en/communication-and-information/memory-of-the-world/register/full-list-of -registered-heritage/registered-heritage-page-2/donguibogam-principles-and-practice-of-eastern-medi cine/

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-04-05 01:24:55
The February 2015 LoAR sn. Jeong Cheongju Han notes:
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/02/15-02lar.html#298)
"...late period Korean names are registerable under the standards of SENA."

So, all that's really needed to add, is to show that "Yi" was a surname used in the 16th/early 17th c. in Korea.

The relics of Admiral Yi Sun-sin (1545-1598) are classed as National Treasure 326 in South Korea, and have an entry on the Cultural Heritage Administration's website in English: http://english.cha.go.kr/chaen/search/selectGeneralSearchDetail.do?sCcebKdcd=12&ccebAsno=03260000&sC cebCtcd=34
and in Korean, where his name is recorded as 李舜臣 and 이순신.
(http://www.heritage.go.kr/heri/cul/culSelectDetail.do?region=1&searchCondition=&searchCondition2=&s_ kdcd=00&s_ctcd=00&ccbaKdcd=12&ccbaAsno=03260000&ccbaCtcd=34&ccbaCpno=1123403260000&ccbaCndt=&stCcba Asno=326&endCcbaAsno=326&stCcbaAsdt=&endCcbaAsdt=&ccbaPcd1=99&culPageNo=1&chGubun=&header=view&retu rnUrl=%2Fheri%2Fcul%2FculSelectViewList.do&sCond=)

This website about the Dongui bogam gives Heo Jun's name as 허준(許浚)(click on the English flag to get the text and a horible text-to-speech voice https://m.cha.go.kr/mobileApp/heri/cul/culSelectDetail.do?VdkVgwKey=11,03190300,11&pageNo=77010000)

The Library of Congress's guide to the romanisation of Korean says:
https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/korean.pdf
p. 13
"The surnames 李 and 異, written in Hangul as 리 or 이, are always romanized as Yi no matter how they are written."
and
준 is romanised in their PDF as "Jun" in the name 국립 국어 연구원. 표준 국어 대사전/Kungnip Kugŏ Yŏn'guwŏn. P'yojun Kugŏ taesajŏn.

So, 李浚/이준 = "Yi Jun"

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:53:02
Docs seem to check out.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-18 19:17:04
There was a Korean diplomat named Yi Jun, for whom the Yi Jun Peace Museum in the Hague is named. I believe he meets the encyclopedia test for fame. https://denhaag.com/en/location/478/yi-jun-peace-museum

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-19 01:02:35
Mistress Adelaide's citation does not show that the diplomat meets the encylopedia test of http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN4D1. A monument is not an entry, nor does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Tjoune#Legacy, which notes the conversion of the hotel in the Hague where he died into a private museum, count as print.

But even if it did, SENA requires that "Individuals who do have an entry [in a print encyclopedia] must be further considered." Yi Jun was not among "Sovereign rulers of significant states". Given the Western bias of our membership, and the small proportion of those who are Dutch, it seems vanishingly unlikely that he's among "Individuals whose names are recognized by a significant number of people in the Society without having to look them up in a reference".

That leaves "Individuals whose work and/or life are still influential today ... whose work significantly shaped the course of world history, science, or the arts." The most laudatory statement I have found, at http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2008/08/178_23958.html, is

Today, Yi is remembered as a national hero in both South and North Korea. Last year, the 100th anniversary of Yi's death was extensively commemorated in The Hague, according to The Hague administration Web site (www.denhaag.com).
But SENA's criterion is world history.

The section suggests "numbers of search engine hits for the individual" as a possibly relevant measure. Searching Google with "yi jun" korean diplomat finds 1.4K hits for me today, where "carrie catt" women's suffrage finds 10.1K and "lucy mcgillicuddy" "i love lucy" finds 14.5K.

I do not believe the name <Yi Jun> is presumptuous under our rules, even if a standard print encyclopedia article could be found.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-19 10:58:24
This is a matter for Pelican to decide. Kingdom does not determine which historic people are important enough to protect.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-19 17:27:29
To my mind, offering relevant evidence to Pelican--and the Laurel-level commenters--is something between a courtesy and a necessity.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:38:31
I see no conflicts


10: Emma de Davyntre -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2012, via Gleann Abhann.

(Fieldless) a paternoster quarterly vert and purpure tasseled argent

Badge Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:53:17
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:40:29
I see no conflicts


11: Grimhildr Læknir -New Name & New Device

Quarterly gules and argent, 2 furisons argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.

Grimhildr - http://www.VikingAnswerLady. Name appears in the Greenland Saga (1382-1395) as the wife of Thorsteinn of Lysufjord

Læknir - Geirr Bassi pg 25 - Nicknames, 2 name instances "leech, doctor"

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:53:41
Given name doc checks out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:42:59
Link does not work. Proper link is http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml

I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Modar Neznanich (Volk) at 2018-04-03 16:03:34
Minor nitpick. I believe the "inner area" of the furisons should be tinctured gules also...that is the open area where tinder is put so the falling sparks will land on it and catch afire. As it is an open area, you would see the gules field thru it.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 00:01:23
It would be desirable to get that fixed, with submitter's approval, before the XLoI.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-04-14 22:49:15
No, the inner area has nothing to do with tinder. This style of furison may have a cutout or may lack one. The bottom edge is an iron blade, the top part is often gilded bronze etc. I have pics of Viking Age examples at http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/fire.shtml

You put the tinder to the side towards which the sparks will fall, and below, not above the striking edge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-14 23:28:23
Thank you! I'm rubbish at most things mechanical, and I hadn't gotten the idea clearly at all.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 09:44:01
Yes, a furison need not be pierced, but when it is, as here, the field needs to show through.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 00:02:42
Spelling out the numeral as always (which avoids single-character typos):

Quarterly gules and argent, two furisons argent

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:54:13
We spell out numbers in blazons. No conflicts found. Agree about the furisons.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 18:45:00
Agreed the interior ought be colored.

No conflicts found


12: Hextilda Corbet -New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Atlantia.

May Bee

No major changes.
Sound (Maybe) most important.

May - familysearch.org - England B&Cs 1538-1975

May Armesone c April 1, 1584 batch #C03696-2

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J3C6-VMC : 11 February 2018, May Armesone, 01 Apr 1584

Bee - familysearch.org - England B&Cs, 1538-1975

Frannces Bee c NNov 24, 1554 batch #C06088-https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK2G-3HS : 11 February 2018, Frannces Bee, 24 Nov 1554

Alternate Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 00:08:24
This is of course a joke name, which the College explicitly accepts, though not any "that, by its very presence, destroys any medieval ambience" (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1992/08/lar.htm s.n. Porsche Audi, returned). No problem here to my mind.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:54:38
Docs used to form this joke name check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:25:37
Links work.

I see no conflicts


13: Hextilda Corbet -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Atlantia.

(Fieldless) a saltire couped azure overall a bee proper

This submission is to be associated with May Bee

Badge Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:55:03
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:28:14
I see no conflict


14: Hrafn Óláfsson -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2005, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) A double-headed raven maintaining in each claw a Thor's hammer argent

Badge Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-03 02:38:39
I would suggest a redraw here to make the feet stick out a bit further from the bird so the hammers can be a bit bigger, otherwise the hammers just look like ill-shaped feet. If a redraw is done, I'd also suggest some internal detailing and another eye. Poor one-eyed bird. Flying without depth perception...

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:55:37
No conflicts found. Isn't a displayed bird that's not an eagle a SFPP?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:18:09
It is, though nobody had yet said so. Such seem regularly to be cited in the headmatter by some kingdoms.

But I don't believe there's any others, so we're okay there.

Concur with Sea Stag that a redraw would improve what is perhaps a marginally registerable emblazon. If one is done, care should be taken to preserve the hammers' bendwise (sinister) orientations, or if desired to change them to clearly palewise or fesswise.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 10:00:19
Birds displayed other than eagles are a SFPP; worse, double-headed displayed birds are pretty much going to be taken for eagles regardless of what else is going on. And those are pretty small Thor's hammers. Therefore, I have a problem with calling this clear versus the protected armory of the Kings of Serbia, Gules, a double-headed eagle crowned argent. One DC for fieldless versus field, but I'm not seeing those little hammers as being very visually impactful. Contrast with the badge of Felicitas Flußmüllnerin, March 2014 via AEthelmearc, (Fieldless) A double-headed eagle argent sustaining a waterwheel gules. The waterwheel is drawn large enough to be undeniably equal weight with the eagle, and it's in another tincture.

1: Image 1

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 10:03:52
Felicia's badge for comparison.

1: Image 1

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-19 10:20:19
The hammers do clear the conflict with the Kings of Serbia according to our current rules regarding maintained items, despite their small size. They still need to be redrawn to be identifiable, but it's clear.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:32:37
Further agreement that the hammers need to be bigger

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:36:45
The hammers are not identifiable as hammers. I thought they were feet until I read the blazon.

This is a SFFP because the birds are ravens, not eagles, but since I think it's okay to add a second head without that counting as another SFFP, that's cool.

I see no conflicts


15: Izza al-Khayyat -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Meaning most important.

Izza - Found an article "Period Arabic Names and namking Practices" by Da'ud obn Auda, http://heraldry,sca,org/names/arabic-naming2.htm

al-Khayyat - Ibid

Submitter prefers the name "Izza al-Kayyata", if documentation can be found

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 00:28:43
The URL is http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm with dots, not curls (or whatever you call commas in URLs). The article name is best given explicitly as "Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices (2nd edition)". And the author is former Laurel King of Arms Da'ud ibn Auda.

Since al-Khayyat is noted as masculine in the source, and Arabic bynames seem routinely to need feminization for feminine names, I suggest <al-Khayyatiya>, which not only has a suffix I've seen elsewhere but seems to be correct for modern Arabic transcribed (https://successfulsocieties.princeton.edu/sites/successfulsocieties/files/TD_Morocco%20Rural%20Water _AFD_1.pdf, first paragraph of Introduction).

The given name found in the source is in fact <`Izza>, beginning with an ayin, which is a letter, not a diacritic. (YouTube has multiple videos trying to help the English speaker pronounce it.)

I therefore suggest sending up for comment

<`Izza al-Khayyatiya>

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-09 00:07:26
SENA Appendix D says you can drop the ayin (there spelled "ayn") if consistent with the rest of the transliteration.

My apologies.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-04-08 20:25:08
The byname is definitely masculine. Please see the attached, which shows the definition of Khayyaṭ, its use by men contrasted to women, and two men with the byname al-Khayyaṭ.

The dot under the ṭ, and the ʻayn, may be dropped by SENA Appendix D. I believe al-Khayyatiya or al-Khayyatiyya are likely feminine forms, and should be acceptable.

I didn't find any conflict.

1: Image 1

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 10:18:53
Concur. This could be 'Izza bint al-Khayyat, 'Izza, daughter of the tailor'; al-Khayyat is marked in Da'ud's article as both an occupational nisba AND a nisba used as an 'ism. Otherwise 'Izza al-Khayyatiyyah is the likely feminization if she herself is the tailor.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-04-19 16:33:36
Ah! I hadn't thought of ʻIzza bint al-Khayyāṭ, which would be a fine Arabic name.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:57:03
Izzá is found in the cited article, but don't see the form as submitted. Surname doc checks out, but don't see the client's desired spelling.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:23:16
The form of the given name in Da'ud ibn Auda, "Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices (2nd edition)", is without an acute accent.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:38:51
Link did not work for me.

I see no conflict

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 00:37:16
See my correction of the link above.


16: Joanna Watyn -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of February 28, 2018 as submitted.

Argent, within a bordure quarterly vert and purpure a poppinjay vert

Previous blazon: Argent, within a bordure gyrrony of eight vert and purpure a poppinjay vert

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 01:10:48
Argent, a popinjay vert within a bordure quarterly vert and purpure.

A bit more info about the original return would be useful.

Original submission: http://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=82254

Presumably returned for having an element divided into greater than 4 parts with poor contrast.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:57:23
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's corrected blazon.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:40:31
I see no conflicts


17: Karl bogsveigir Thorgeirsson -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2010, via Ansteorra.

Per pale gules and argent a bowen cross and a bordure countercharged

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 01:14:05
Since the cross is touching the bordure, let's add a 'throughout' in there. Also, we capitalize 'Bowen', and it's -changed, not -charged.

Per pale gules and argent a Bowen cross throughout and a bordure counterchanged.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:57:47
What Iago said. No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:48:11
I see no conflicts


18: Katerine Anne de Wolf -New Name & New Device

Gules, a wolf rampant argent and a tierce ermine

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (wolf) most important.

Katerine - given name 1522 "Given Names from Brittany, 1384-1600" http://heraldry.sca.org/name/latebreton.html

de Wulf - byname 1583 "Names from Lallaing 1389-1600" http://heraldry,sca,org/lallaing/lallaing-names.bynames.html

Anne - Larouse pg 10 sn "Anne"

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-10 05:10:36
Additional docs for Anne - DMNES, Anne, France, Middle French :1561 Anne RegPCC-1 p. 3. http://dmnes.org/cite/Anne/1561/RegPCC-1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:58:16
The article cited for Katerine also supports Anne from 1535, 1543, and 1549. Other docs check out.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 11:12:16
Submission line says "de Wolf" and documentation supports "de Wulf". This is not a place we can assume vowel switches, because the documentation is from France, where "de Wulf" would have been a foreign name. If the locals had messed with it, it would have become "de Loup" or something a French speaker could understand. Dauzat, s.n. several including Dewulf and Dewolf says these are Flemish names, and of course does not date them to period.

If she wants a French name, I can support Loup as a surname in period. If she wants the spelling de Wolf, IGI has a number of pre-1600 citations from both Germany and the Netherlands, both of which are allowable combinations with French per SENA, and the Lallaing citation should be dropped.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:55:33
The links do not work for me

No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-10 00:45:37
The first link is missing an S: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/latebreton.html

The second, with its commas instead of periods, is invalid on its face. The right link also needs to include an additional level: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_names_bynames.html

One more reason it's well to include the article name in documentation!

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:01:49
The use of a tierce with other charges is a step from period practice.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:58:31
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 19:59:48
I see no conflict


19: Koke Gan -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister vert and sable

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (Golden Horde era Mongol) most important.

Koke - "Blue" from "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongol Names" by Baras-Aghur Naran per http://heraldry.sca.org/names/mongol.html

Gan - "Steel" per IBID

Name constructed as noun+noun, two word construction method. Koke Gan is adjective+concrete noun.

Name similar to "Mongke Temur" (lit. "Eternal Iron"), also per IBID

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:58:48
Docs check out.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:34:27
There are several other <Gan>s registered, along with Western European <Gun(n)>s, a <Ginn>, <Gwyn(n)>s, etc., and a <Kauko> Karvulakki, but I find no name close enough to be worth counting the differences from the submission.

I believe there's no conflict.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-04-19 12:05:52
All due respect to Baras, Marta, and "other sources", I really wish we would stop registering this element. I cannot find Gan anywhere except as gan=khan=qan=xan=γan= "king". I certainly do not see anything remotely close meaning "steel". I do see kete 'steel for making fire'. Really high-quality blade material seems to be described with the same word as gold, altan.

If "blue steel" as in blades is important to the submitter, neither of these elements is correct. Koke is blue-green-gray from kok, 'sky'. Submitter might like Ildech 'swordmaker, swordsman' or Ildutei 'carrying a sword'.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:07:44
Link worked.

I found no conflict

Device Comments:

Vémundr at 2018-04-04 15:04:01
No conflict found, always nice to see more Field Only armoury!

Closest would be Oddr Þiálfason's badge, Per bend sinister dovetailed sable and vert. This one is clear for the total swap of both tinctures per A5F2; there's also the change of line type for a DC per A5G1c.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 21:38:20
There's not an SC from Oddr under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5F2, which requires that "each has at least one tincture on the field that the other does not". There is, however, a DC under A5G1a for the swap, and another for the change of line, so no conflict there.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:59:07
No conflicts found.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:33:40
Striking armory! Love to see field only!

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:10:25
No conflicts found


20: Lessandra Francesca della Torre -Resub Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Per pale sable and azure, a ram's head affronty and on a chief argent three bowen cross' sable

Old device originally submitted under the name "Mary Whytehorne"

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=27678

Name changed to Lessandra Francesca della Torre

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=76729

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 01:17:19
To make it clear there's no neck showing, let's use 'cabossed' here. That, plus fixing the capitalization of 'Bowen' and the plural of 'cross', gives:

Per pale sable and azure, a ram's head cabossed and on a chief argent three Bowen crosses sable.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:55:47
Lessandra della Torre was registered in September of 2017 (via Ansteorra).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 14:59:39
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's blazon corrections.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:11:40
No conflict found


21: Lessandra Francesca della Torre -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) On a bowen's cross sable a ram's head affronty argent

Badge Comments:

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-03 02:52:30
The head doesn't seem to be on or overall... I think this is a pretty good example of "barely overall".

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:56:04
Lessandra della Torre was registered in September of 2017 (via Ansteorra).

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-04-04 15:13:17
The ram's head obscures the identifying features of the cross. As drawn, only one short line segment differentiates it from a cross of five mascles, and that's especially subtle in the colored version.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:00:38
"a Bowen cross" No conflicts found. If the head were significantly larger, the cross would be nearly unidentifiable. I wonder if it should be blazoned as "(Fieldless) A Bowen cross surmounted by a ram's head cabossed argent".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 22:04:18
So far as I know, surmounted by has no different meaning than and overall. And as Sea Stag notes, this head is neither that nor on the cross. For the reason you state, Green Anchor, enlarging the head to avoid "barely overall" is unworkable. I believe this design must be radically rethought.

Just a suggestion--useful even if, or perhaps especially if, submitter hates it, as something to react against: (Fieldless) A cross of four lozenges sable each charged with a ram's head cabossed argent. Alternatively, with the lozenges not conjoined: (Fieldless) In cross four lozenges sable each ...

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-19 11:58:39
I continue to insist that "surmounted" means overlapping the charge on which it lies, while "overall" means overlapping all the charges on the field. Agree that here the head would have to be tiny to be simply "on" the cross, and that it would be best to send it back for a redesign.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-19 18:16:10
I was in error. I should have said something like:

"So far as I know, when there is only a single underlying charge, surmounted by ..."

As far as "overall" requiring overlap of all the charges on the field, that had troubled me until now. Fortunately, we have a couple of clear counter-examples.

Countess Adelicia of Cumbria's device is unofficially illustrated at http://op.atlantia.sca.org/op_ind.php?atlantian_id=15 and http://www.haakonstead.org/adelicia.html, first image below. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/02/14-02lar.html#134 notes it was "Blazoned when registered in March 1983 as Sable, four swords in saltire conjoined at the points proper, overall five mullets in cross argent" but reblazons it as Sable, four swords in saltire conjoined at the points proper between four mullets in cross, overall a mullet argent because "there is only one overall mullet." That mullet does not overlap anything other than the sword points, and our Sovereigns cannot believe their reblazon implies that it does.

Lord Thomas Ravenwood of Western Seas's device (Aug 2002), illustrated at http://caidwiki.org/index.php?title=Thomas_Ravenwood_of_Western_Seas, second image, is blazoned Sable, a bend sinister between two grenades Or overall a sword proper all within a bordure Or. It would be difficult to require the sword to overlap the grenades, and ugly if achieved.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:15:39
I can hardly identify the bowen cross. The ram's head takes up too much of the cross aspects of it.

There's no conflict


22: Luka Iakovich Novgorodets -New Name

Luka - 11th Century male Russian Name (gin. Luka, Wickenden) http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/l.html

Iakovich - regularly constructed formed of Iakov. First found in the 12th - early 13th century (gin. Iakok, Wickenden) http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/h-j.html

Novgorodets - locotive type II byname first found in 14th century following a pattern that appears in other cities beginning in the 12th century (header "Novgorod II", Wickenden on locative bynames http://heraldry.sca.org/names/toprus.html

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:01:00
Docs check out.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 18:47:02
Same question as above, wondering about order, with no good answer. I do see Iakov Iur'evich Novosilits, a -vich form followed by a Type II locative, so I feel better.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:18:32
Links worked.

I see no conflict.


23: Marie de Meaux -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Myrddin Hawk(9/1992)

Argent, a footprint gules and on a chief embattled sable a bearded axe argent

Sound (Marie) most important.

Marie - Withycombe, French, under Mary

de Meaux - https://www.britanica.com/place/Meaux

Article > Meaux, France

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-04 18:11:29
I don't have Withycombe. Marie - DMNES, Mary, France, Old French,1313 Marie Paris1313 p. 7; Middle French, 1455 Marie HRAVP-3 p. 353. http://dmnes.org/name/Mary

https://www.britannica.com/place/Meaux. "Meaux, town, Seine-et-Marne département, Île-de-France région, northern France, east-northeast of Paris…it has been an agricultural market centre since medieval times. The most outstanding building, Saint-Étienne Cathedral (12th to 16th century)…"

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:01:34
Looks good. Family Search has a couple of individuals named Marie De Meaux and Marie Demeaux, both married in the 1670's.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:24:02
I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:52:00
A footprint is a step from period practice.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:01:59
No conflicts found.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-03 11:19:42
This item's art was not approved by the submitter. It was a Gulf Wars submission and should have included a chief, not a chief embattled.


24: Ongust mac Uuid -Resub Name & Resub Device

Per bend sinister vert and Or, a brown bear proper rampant regardant bearing a goblet argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture (9th century Pictish) most important.

See attached

originally submitted name "Oengus Mac Aoidh" which was never registered

Device originally submitted with name "Oengus Mac Aoidh" which was never registered

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2018-04-01/08-48-07_Ongust_mac_Uuid_name_doc_1.jpg

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:47:11
Óengus mac Aoidh was on Ansteorra ILoI - 2018-01-07 and it looks like it was returned at kingdom.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-04-04 15:54:57
Yes, <Oengus Mac Aoidh> was returned at kingdom due to conflict. this is a Resubmission at the Kingdom level.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2018-04-04 15:52:16
Really wish a documentation summary had been given here, instead of just a scan of some printouts containing only parts of the necessary information.

The source cited is Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's A Consideration of Pictish Names. (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/pictnames/pict3_4, https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/pictnames/pict5.html#section5).

It presents "Ongust" as a standardized, reconstructed 6th century form of a masculine given name, and says of such reconstructions, "Ideally, actual cited forms from the data should be used in preference to these, but the table of forms can be used to guide the choice of spellings compatible with earlier or later periods." The cited forms include "Oinuist", "Onnist", "Onuis", "Uidnuist", "Unuist", and "Vnuist".

It presents "Uuid" as a standardized 6th century form, taken from an Irish source, of a masculine given name found only in patronyms, and warns, "Keep in mind that the fathers of Pictish kings may not themselves have been Pictish."

It lists {given name} mac {father's name} as one "basic 'historic era' name construction", but goes on to say, "'Mac' is the Gaelic patronymic marker and would have come into use with the gradual Gaelicization of Pictish culture. It almost certainly would not have been in common use in the 6th century, and almost certainly _would_ have been in common use towards the 8th century."

As the submitter has indicated having a 9th century Pictish name is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, someone might want to mention to him that major language shifts took place between the 6th and 8th centuries, and "Unuist mac Uuid" is not only better supported by the article than is the submitted form ("Unuist" being cited rather than reconstructed, and "mac" actually having been in common use by the 8th century) but undoubtedly much closer to a 9th century form.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 19:03:35
I weighed in on this one via Facebook, so it's partly my fault. Yes, he wants to be a Pict, but he SO wants Ongust over Ungist or any of the U forms. Also the forms missing the G. I had the "how Angus became Aeneas" discussion, and he was unmoved. He wants it to start with O, and have a g, so that pretty much leaves us with Ongust.

After some discussion, wherein I told him there was no way Uuid was related to Aed, but it was short and sweet and kind of had a similar ear, he went with that.

And yeah, I had the Ogham discussion, and we tossed around some Ogham forms, but he kept going back to Ongust mac Uuid as the nearest thing to as many of the things that were important as possible. I believe it is registerable, and Wid doesn't sound like EE, so there shouldn't be a conflict problem.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:29:18
Coblaith's link supports the names.

I found no conflicts

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:49:13
The device was on Ansteorra ILoI - 2018-01-07.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-04-03 16:56:28
A similar device was on that letter. This images fixes the issues with the cup. Because of issues with the name and the alignment of the cup, the submission was not sent to an external letter. This is a resubmission at the Kingdom level.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:16:30
It is interesting that at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=5115#6, An Tir from Central/Summits is proposing for Hallgrímr Þorvaldsson (before blazon tweaking) Gyronny arrondi of four argent and azure, a brown bear rampant regardant proper maintaining a basket Or. 3DCs for field and type and tincture of maintained charge, so no problem, just interesting.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:19:47
Let's sequence this

Per bend sinister vert and Or, a brown bear rampant regardant proper maintaining a goblet argent

Apologies for not tweaking last time.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:02:39
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:33:16
I see no conflicts


25: Padric OMullan -New Household Name

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

House of Shadow Fire

Submitter's name was registered in Ansteorra in 1998 http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Padric%20O%20Mullan

House of - standard household designator

Shadow - surname as given name "Edwardus Shadow" 1543 English C

Fire - English surname "John Fire" 1587 Batch C

House of < given name > + < surname > pattern attested in Sharon Krossa's article http://medievalscotland.org/names/eurohouseholds/englandhouseholds.shtml

Household Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:43:24
Padric O Mullan was registered in September of 1998 (via Ansteorra).

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-04-06 14:43:44
It looks like the submitter is trying to make the household name out of two bynames from Family Sarch, taking the 'byname as given name' precedent (Sept 2012 LoAR CI).

Edwardus Shadow https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRZB-GXN Christening Date 18 Jun 1543 Christening Place STEVENAGE,HERTFORD,ENGLAND Batch # C04890-2

John Fire https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMWQ-NY7 Christening Date 12 Jan 1587 Christening Place ST ANDREW,HOLBORN,LONDON,ENGLAND Batch # C01051-1

This submission stretches precedent, but I see no reason not to send it up for final decision.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 19:16:35
I hate this. Must get back to that proposed rule change...

In the meantime, I reluctantly point out that the current precedent in force supports this submission:

"A recent ruling held that the pattern House of + person's full name is the only form in which a person's full name is usable in a household name in English. [Brigit inghean ui Dhomhnaill, November 2014 LoAR, A-East]. Thus, Hammer Fall House was not registerable, but House of Hammer Fall was."

Hammer Fall was documented exactly as Shadow Fire is here.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:36:53
I see no conflicts


26: Raulff Smeithberde -New Name & New Device

Quarterly vert and sable, a stag head erased affronty argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound (Ralph Smithbeard) most important.

Raulff - http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/ralph.html

Smeithberde - http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/smithbeard.html

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-04 17:36:40
Docs check out. Raulff is dated to 1590. Smeithberde is dated to 1526.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-04-06 14:45:46
I find no conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:03:49
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:38:55
Links work

No conflicts found

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:22:52
Fixing the tiny typo:

Quarterly vert and sable, a stag's head erased affronty argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:24:56
If the erasing here meets the criteria set on http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2001/11/01-11cl.html, it does so just barely. I would hate to see this returned for what submitter will undoubtedly consider a very minor point. Is a redraw possible in time?

Villana Palazolo at 2018-04-17 15:26:11
As helping consulting herald, we used the Pennsic traceable art project for this image - http://www.aeheralds.net/submissions/traceable_art/IndivPDFs/Deers_head_erased_affronty.pdf. (I do know that it is not perfect)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 22:10:53
In the best of all possible worlds, I recommend minor extensions of the jags and a stiff note to the Project. If that is not possible, our Sovereigns' advice is when in doubt to send it up.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:04:14
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:40:56
I see no conflicts


27: Rebekah Aleyn -New Alternate Name

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of June 28, 2017 as submitted.

Deborah Bee

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language most important.
Culture (Relects my religion - Hebrew) most important.
Meaning most important.
Spelling most important.

Deborah - mundane name use allowance. Also, according to the Book of Judges chapters 4 and 5, Deborah was a prophet of Yahweh the God of the Israelites, the fourth Judge of pre-monarchic Israel and the only female judge mentioned in the Bible, and the wife of Lapidoth. Deborah told Barak that Yahweh commanded him to lead an attack against the forces of Jabin king of Canaan and his military commander Sisera (Judges 4:6-7); the entire narrative is recounted in chapter 4. Judges chapter 5 gives the same story in poetic form. This passage, often called The Song of Deborah, may date to as early as the 12th century BC and is perhaps the earliest sample of Hebrew poetry.

Bee - Hebrew translation for the name Deborah. Also in "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N24K-XVS : 11 February 2018, Agnes Bee, 14 Oct 1541); citing St Modwen's, Burton Upon Trent, Staffordshire, England

Alternate Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:32:23
Name registered September 2017.
FamilySearch Historical Records
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N24K-XVS
Name: Agnes Bee
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 14 Oct 1541
Christening Place: St Modwen's, Burton Upon Trent, Staffordshire, England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C04287-9

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPD7-XZ6
Name: Deborah Rogerson
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 13 Mar 1591
Christening Place: SAINT MARY,BEDFORD,BEDFORD,ENGLAND
Indexing Project (Batch) Number P00510-1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:42:14
<Deborah> is also the form of the judge's name in the King James Bible, and in Wycliffe's late 14th-century English-language version: http://dmnes.org/name/Deborah.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:04:44
Name docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:44:19
Links work, and are good batches

I see no conflict


28: Rebekah Aleyn -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of June 28, 2017 as submitted.

(Fieldless) On a mullet of six points azure, a bee proper

This submission is to be associated with Deborah Bee

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-03 01:25:17
Mistholme says:

The Society defines its "proper" tinctures with argent wings, upper body Or, lower body striped Or and sable; a bee proper is treated as a metal for contrast purposes.
This bee has Or wings and a black upper body, so is not 'proper'. I'd go with something like 'sable marked and winged Or', which makes clear the bee is mainly sable, and therefore has a contrast problem.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2018-04-14 22:51:26
Concur with Iago.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:32:12
Name registered September 2017.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:05:04
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:46:24
Agree the bee is colored incorrectly.

I see no conflicts.


29: Ronald fitz Robert -New Name & New Device

Argent, on a pale azure between two arrows sable three bezants

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Meaning (Ronald son of Robert) most important.

Ronald - [RW] s.n. Ronald, Ronalds, Randald. John Ronald dated to 1635

[RW] s.n. Ronaldson, Doul Ranaldsone (son of Ronald Alanson) dated 1511

Robert - [RW] s.n. Robert, Roberts, Robart, Robarts, Robberds, Robearts, Robers Willemus filius Roberti, dated to 1086. William Robert dated to 129, Thomas Robart dated 1332

SENA Appendix A attests to the naming pattern <name> fitz <name>

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-04 05:08:37
Docs check out.
Ronald - Besides John Ronald in 1655, it shows a John Ronnald 1463 from Black.

For fitz there is R&W, s.n. FitzHerbert - William Fitz Herbert, 1295, `son of Herbert; s.n. FitzJames - Thomas Fitzjames, 1345, `son of James'; s.n. FitzWilliam, FitzWilliams - Raul' le fuiz William, 1299, Edmund Fitzwilliam, 1424 `son of William'.

S.n. Robert - William Robert is 1292.

Additional doc for Ronald, Black's `Surnames of Scotland', p. 502, s.n. MacGillivray, et al shows a Ronald McAllen McIlvery or McIlverie was a land tenant in 1541.

Lilie Dubh inghean ui Mordha (Pantheon) at 2018-04-06 14:52:58
Docs check. Clear of Rónán fitz Robert, registered Dec 2013 via East.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:05:22
Looks OK.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:51:25
I see no conflicts

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 19:33:33
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:53:42
I see no conflicts


30: Santiago el Rojo -New Name & New Device

Argent, an anchor gules between in pale two crosses of Santiago sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Santiago - s.n. Santiago. Spanish given name dated to 1576 dmmes.org/names/santiago

el Rojo - Juan El Rojo, male, chr 12 June 1603, Santiago Apostol, Valladolid, Valladolid, Spain Batch C87105-2 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:/:FFHW-VRW

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-04 04:38:20
Docs check out. The url for Santiago is http://dmnes.org/name/Santiago. Fwiw Alonso El Rojo is the baby's father; the url is one number off, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FFHW-VRW

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 19:34:00
Docs check out.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-18 22:18:09
I don't find any conflicts.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 20:57:37
Maridonna's links work, and look correct.

I see no conflicts

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-04-04 15:58:05
I'm having an extremely difficult time identifying these crosses as Santiago crosses. http://mistholme.com/dictionary/cross-santiago/

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:53:36
Call my time impossible for that purpose.

These crosses are patonce at the top, their cross bars end almost like a cross of Calatrava's, and their feet seems to be intended as clechy. (See, e.g., http://coblaith.net/Heraldry/Crosses/period.html or Mistholme.)

Since this must (I believe) be returned for redraw of the unblazonable crosses, it would be a service to the client to suggest he place his anchor between three crosses, which would leave more room for everything.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:06:11
No conflict found.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-04-24 11:53:22
Submitter has approved this redraw:

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-24 14:51:34
I believe all charges are identifiable at viewing distance. Hurray!

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 19:21:21
Did he give any reason why he wants the crosses in that position, and so small? If he really wants his armory to look Iberian, he should have four, two and two on either side of the anchor.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2018-05-02 19:22:56
no, just that he wants 2 rather than 3-4.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-05-03 08:30:23
It would look so much better with the crosses in fess.

1: Image 1

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 21:00:52
I see no conflict.


31: Set Sette -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Sedeke Edye(4/2006), Sithia, House de (7/1981)

Submitter has no desire as to gender.
Sound (Set) most important.

Set Sette - Dutch name "Set Sette" was christened in 1608, IGI batch Coo826-3

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2018-04-04 04:24:53
The url for Set Sette is https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBBS-SBF

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 01:55:32
And the batch number is C00826-3, not with lowercase Os.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 21:03:40
Maridonna's link works.

I see no conflicts


32: Sofia Patrekieva -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2014, via Ansteorra.

Or, a raven sable maintaining in its claws a ring purpure, on a chief gules a sun Or

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-04-03 16:29:06
This is not a New Device but a resubmission of two returns at Laurel.

[August 2014 LoAR, R-Ansteorra] Sofia Patrekieva. Device. Or, a raven rising sable maintaining in its claws a gem ring argent, on a chief gules a sun Or.
This is returned for non-period style. Blazoned on the LoI as a gem, the charge attached to the ring is actually a brilliant cut gemstone. Precedent says:
The device is returned for non-period style. Blazoned on the LoI as a set cut gemstone, the charge in base appears rather to be a brilliant cut gemstone. Our rules (RfS VII.3) allow artifacts known in the period and domain of the Society to be registered as armorial elements provided they are depicted in their period forms. The brilliant cut, being developed in the 17th Century, is post-period and not registerable.
The other problem is that the gemstone is in profile. Batonvert noted: "However, be it known that my sole example in period heraldry of a gemstone used as an independent charge (i.e., not attached to a ring or other piece of jewelry), in the civic arms of Beihlstein (Siebmacher 226), shows the gem from above, not in profile. A set gem would be likewise seen from above. Neither in its natural setting (as it were) nor in heraldry would a gemstone be seen in profile. Granted that we've registered gemstones in profile once before (in the arms of Theresa Yolanda Cabeza de Vaca, April 2005), it remains a poor practice, and I see no reason to perpetuate it." Theresa's device was blazoned Argent, two chevronels braced and on a chief rayonny sable three faceted gemstones in profile argent. However, she also submitted documentation showing that style of gem cut (with a flat top, or table, with eight supplementary facets) was developed in 1380. No such documentation has been adduced here.
A non-period cut for a gemstone is not registerable. Depicting a gemstone in profile is a step from period practice. [Taran MacThamhais, Feb 2007, R-Northshield]
This submission has the same problem, and is therefore returned for the same reason.

[Agusut 2016 LoAR, R-Ansteorra] Sofia Patrekieva. Device. Or, a raven rising sable maintaining an annulet argent, on a chief gules a sun Or.
This device is returned for redraw, for violating SENA A2C2 which states "Elements must be drawn to be identifiable." Because of its lack of contrast, small size and significant overlap by the raven's foot, the maintained ring loses identifiability. This issue was not raised at the time of the previous return in 2014 because at that time maintained charges had more latitude with regard to contrast and identifiability. However, the precedent of August 2015, which allows maintained charges to contribute for difference also requires that maintained charges have to be identifiable and have good contrast or else be cause for return.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 02:20:44
As soon as possible, submitter should be advised that she can have a gem ring without penalty so long as the gem's cut is documentably period, it has adequate contrast with its background, and the ring is in a blazonable orientation (bendwise for choice here, I think, or else inverted).

The following is reproduced from Mistress ffride's commentary at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=84387. The first two images follow up the citations at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/ring/ for von Enzberg.

Image 1: Ingeram Codex, fol. 104, dated ca. 1459 according to Wikipedia.
Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ingeram_Codex_104.jpg

Image 2: Siebmachers Wappenbuch von 1605, plate 110.
Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Siebmacher110-Entzberg.jpg

There are also some more images I [ffride] found of the Enzberg arms:
Image 3: Wernigeroder (Schaffhausensches) Wappenbuch, ca. 1475-1500. Bayerische Staatsbibliothek München, Cod.icon. 308 n, fol. 149r.
Source: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00043104/image_295

Image 4: Scheibler'sches Wappenbuch, älterer Teil, ca. 1450. Bayerische Staatsbibliothek München, Cod.icon. 312 c, fol. 238
Source: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00007174/image_243

Image 5 is (Mistress ffride says) from Gunnvor Orle's comments at http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=41692 for this device's predecessor. Its sources can be seen in its captions.

It would therefore seem that the statement in Sofia's Laurel return that "Depicting a gemstone in profile is a step from period practice" is not applicable to a gem ring depicted in profile.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:07:50
No conflicts found.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 19:24:04
That word "rising" needs to go back in the blazon. A default raven is close.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-05-03 01:54:18
So:

Or, a raven rising sable maintaining in its claws a ring purpure, on a chief gules a sun Or

assuming she doesn't add the gem back.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 21:06:59
I see no conflicts


33: Villana Palazolo -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2014, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) A peacock in its pride pean

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 02:22:55
I hope we can make this

(Fieldless) A peacock in his pride pean

Villana Palazolo at 2018-04-07 07:27:54
Out of curiosity m, why does it matter for "his" vs "its"?

My device is " a peacock in ITS pride"

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-07 09:00:38
Either's correct, of course. But I like a male being a he better than a non-human being an it.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-08 20:09:16
A peacock is male. The female bird is called a peahen.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-04-17 15:08:17
No conflicts found.

Andrewe Bawldwyn (Laurel Emeritus) at 2018-04-24 20:16:47
Worth discussing identifiability. If the feet can be butched up a bit that would help. Before reading the blazon I had a little difficulty telling what was going on with it. Post blazon it's clearly peafowl so ymmv.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-25 01:20:52
I concur about the feet. They're visible but anemic from viewing distance.

Adelaide de Beaumont (Pympernell) at 2018-05-02 19:25:59
I would like a little more tail detail; with the whole thing a dark color and strewn with ermine tails, I thought it was a fan. I agree visible feet would help.

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-02 19:32:17
I had originally had it completely colored black with the ermine spots and it was not easily identified as a peacock.

When our submissions herald was scanning the original drawing in, it was scanning as a "black blob" (her words).

Villana Palazolo at 2018-05-02 19:32:54
On the feet - I used the peacock in the Pennsic Traceable Art. Which I do know if not perfect.

Thora Grimudottir at 2018-05-09 21:14:19
The peacock looks much like a fan. However, the pic dic isn't much better. http://mistholme.com/dictionary/peacock/

I see no conflicts



OSCAR counts 15 Names, 6 Alternate Names, 1 Household Name, 14 Devices and 7 Badges. There are a total of 43 items submitted on this letter.

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