SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
LoIs
KLoIs
SENA
Prec
AH
Track
Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Trimaris ILoI dated 2018-03-05

Unto The College of Herald's Greetings!

Please review these submissions, on our behalf. I look forward to learning from you.

Please note: I have made corrections to errors on my part only. Anything else is exactly as the submitter desires.

Letter Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-05 08:30:53
The blazons here all seem to be misplaced.

Sibeal inghean Mhurchadha (Lymphad) at 2018-03-05 13:15:19
I put it in the notes. I am guessing that is not where it goes, but this is my first time filling out the form. My apologies.

1: Branwen Bae -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Bran na Fé(1/1990)

Pale bendy sable and argent, a bend sinister argent and fimbriated vert, bendwise two ravens head to sinister with a bordure vert.

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Client requests authenticity.
Meaning (see above) most important.

Given Name: Branwen-

Ruled SCA compatible in June of 1996. Reaney & Wilson (p. 61 s.n. Brangwin) date Brangwayna to 1250 in the form of Brangwain,with that status restated in Nov. 2001. Several instances have been registered since, there should be no problem with using a locative by-name.

http://heraldry.sca.org/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/Compatible.html#Branwen

Byname/Locative: Bae (deBae, of the Bae/Bay)

Refers to place she was known to hale from, at Bae Ceredigion (Welsh) or in English, Cardigan Bay. Per a Brief Introduction to Medieval Bynames, topographical locative names used local landscape features, mostly when one relocated far away. Many times preositions were dropped or not used at all.

Brief Introduction to Medieval Bynames- https://s-gabriel.org/names/arval/bynames/

Correction to Name (2018-Mar-26 06:03:07): Branwent Bae-

Nicholas Branwent, male, married 1594, Grantham, Lincoln, England. Batch no. M01124-1

(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKZL-XZG)

William Bae, male, married 1622, Parish Of Ash, Canterbury Diocese, Kent, England. Batch no. M01478-4

(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNW6-FX2)

Flower Bae, female, married 1621, Plympton Saint Mary, Devon, England. Batch no. M05197-1

(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2GS-F21)

With the June 2016 LoAR sn. Mark Lothian ap Lyonesse noting that:

(https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/06/16-06lar.html#90)

"Lyonesse is a 16th-17th century English surname used as a given name."

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2623/2018-03-04/23-04-29_Branwen-locative.png

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-05 17:10:35
What the Compiled Name Precedents actually says is:

Branwen was ruled SCA compatible in June of 1996. Reaney & Wilson (p. 61 s.n. Brangwin) date Brangwayna to 1250, and various surname forms to later. However, this is not a form of Branwen, but rather of Brangwain, which is a different name. Therefore, Branwen is not registerable as a documented name, thought it remains SCA compatible. [Branwen ferch Gwythyr, 11/01, A-East]
Consider what the May 2009 Cover Letter said:
On the May 2008 Cover Letter, we ruled:
Therefore, as of the May 2009 decisions meetings, we declare that no new name elements or name patterns will be ruled SCA-compatible, that all names previously ruled SCA-compatible are no longer SCA-compatible and that in order for them to be registered, documentation meeting the same standards as for non-SCA-compatible names will be required.
This ruling went into effect with this, the May 2009 Pelican meeting.
Since in 2001 it was ruled there is no documentation for Branwen and that it was "SCA-compatible" and in 2009 we stopped allowing "SCA-compatible," this primary name is not registrable.

Brief Introduction to Medieval Bynames speaks of byname types in general, and uses some Early Modern English examples. That does not mean that all languages treated all types of bynames the same way. Since Bae is said to be Welsh, there needs to be documentation of dropping prepositions in Welsh locative bynames.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:34:50
Docs check out, though I'd like to see support for the surname's spelling as having been used in period.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-20 02:47:59
The given name is where the documentation problem is found. The surname is fine.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 04:00:53
It's not quite what the submitter wants, but...
Nicholas Branwent, male, married 1594, Grantham, Lincoln, England. Batch no. M01124-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKZL-XZG)

William Bae, male, married 1622, Parish Of Ash, Canterbury Diocese, Kent, England. Batch no. M01478-4
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNW6-FX2)
Flower Bae, female, married 1621, Plympton Saint Mary, Devon, England. Batch no. M05197-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2GS-F21)

With the June 2016 LoAR sn. Mark Lothian ap Lyonesse noting that:
(https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/06/16-06lar.html#90)
"Lyonesse is a 16th-17th century English surname used as a given name."

Would "Branwent Bae" be close enough for the submitter?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-20 02:49:25
Your find appears to be the only hope for salvage of the name.

Sibeal inghean Mhurchadha (Lymphad) at 2018-03-25 19:45:54
She just got back to me. Yes it will. I will get the correction added. Thank you for the assist!

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-05 08:29:25
Suggested blazon: Pily bendy sable and argent, on a bend sinister argent fimbriated vert two ravens contourny palewise sable and a bordure vert.

The ravens are closer to palewise than they are to bendwise, but I fear this might blur that line.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:06:02
This definitely is not bendy, but pily, and I'm afraid I'm not seeing the bendy. Also, I think the raven are much closer to being palewise.

Maybe "Pily bendwise sable and argent, on a bend argent fimbrated vert two ravens palewise sable and a bordure vert"

The bordure is very thin, An artist's note might suffice there, but it is barely thicker than the fimbriation, and really ought to be thicker.

This is actually a visually striking device otherwise, and I found no conflicts.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-04-01 10:34:17
The field here is exactly what 'pily bendy' describes. Do a Google image search for "pily bendy" for examples.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:03:41
Or check out OSCAR-era registrations. E.g., from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=13571 for Ellias Silver, Pily bendy sinister sable and argent, first image below, or more like the submission in thickness, from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=80970, second image, for Gogan ap Gryffry, Pily bendy Or and sable, a dragon's head cabossed vomiting flames gules.

But that makes four of us very uncomfortable with the thinness of the bordure. Is it possible to get a redraw before sending up?

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-05 20:56:25
The bordure is awfully thin. The ravens aren't quite palewise, so might blur a distinction. IMO this could use a redrawing; at the least it ought to have an artists' note.

I agree with Iago ab Adam's blazon.

I didn't find any conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 08:51:28
Observation of period rolls has shown the College that bordures don't have to be overpowering. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/09/13-09cl.html#3, "From Wreath: Bordures -- Can You Really Be Too Thin?" concluded:

In general, only when a bordure could be confused with a thick outline of the escutcheon, or when any charges on it are hard to identify, is it too thin. We will continue to register thin bordures without comment.
However, particularly combined with the fimbriation of the same tincture, this one strikes me as looking too much like a mere "thick outline" on a tables (backgammon) board.

Do the rest of you think it's so thin as to be unregisterable?

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-07 10:27:43
With the bordure being only the slightest bit thicker than the fimbriation, I lean towards 'too thin'.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 15:48:44
I do indeed think it is too thin.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:36:44
No conflicts found. Would like to see the bordure thicker, but this will probably be registerable. How about "Pily bendy sable and argent, on a bend sinister argent fimbriated vert two ravens close to sinister sable, a bordure vert."?

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-06 10:10:45
'Close' is the default for ravens, so can be omitted. Once there's no longer a posture term for 'to sinister' to modify that will need to be changed to 'contourny'. Your blazon also doesn't specify the orientation of the ravens (which would default to bendwise, and these are closer to palewise).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 08:41:51
Aren't these ravens nearer default? If per http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/09/11-09lar.html s.n. Joye de Beumund, "The default orientation for animate charges not affronty or displayed on a bend is bendwise sinister; in other words, they are climbing upwards along the bend", I would expect the default on a bend sinister to be bendwise.

Looking at these with my head tilted left, they're nearly but not quite close contourny bendwise, not palewise, with their heads lowered too much.

I think the solution is for someone who understands postures on a bend to consult with submitter for a redraw.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-07 10:32:00
Looking at it on my phone, and tilting the phone until the ravens look upright, the magic angle seems to be about 15°, well shy of the 22.5° which would mark the halfway point between bendwise and palewise.

I think, though, that the fact that it is even being discussed points towards this blurring the line between the two.


2: Brithwynn Artor -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in April of 2010, via Trimaris.

Argent, a chevron ermine fimbriated sable between two rams respectant and a rose gules.

Device Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-05 21:03:42
I think we blazon a rose with those details as "proper", giving Argent, a chevron ermine fimbriated sable wbetween two rams respectant gules and a rose proper. However, the given blazon is shorter; I'll let others decide which blazon is better.

The ermine tails are, IMO, too small and too close together.

I didn't find any conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:19:46
I've just discovered that we count the extra tinctures of a rose proper toward a design's complexity (example in http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3E2), so I think your proposed blazon is required:

Argent, a chevron ermine fimbriated sable between two rams respectant gules and a rose proper

But that leads to a complexity count over the limit: Argent + chevron + ermine + sable + rams + gules + rose + Or + vert = 9.

However, the rule continues, "An item with a complexity count of nine or higher that follows a period pattern of charges and tinctures may be registered, but may need to be documented as an Individually Attested Pattern. [Emphasis added.]" On first reaction, I'd be disposed to send this up with only that quote and no IAP, claiming that this is an entirely period pattern with a rose proper ... but then I wouldn't be the one betting 6 months of my life waiting for a decision!

And on further thought, I'd be slow to claim that ermine fimbriated sable is found in period. It may be, but I don't know that. One simple change to meet the criterion would be

Argent, a chevron counter-ermine between two rams respectant gules and a rose proper

with, indeed, the spots drawn rather larger.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2018-04-01 17:30:03
This has been corrected since SENA was released.
May 2014 - Complexity Counts and You:
We will not count the tincture of purely artistic details, whether they are blazoned or not. This means a rose proper has only one tincture, gules, as the tincture of the barbing and seeding are considered artistic.
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/05/14-05cl.html#4

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 18:01:38
Oh, good!

I would have sworn I'd seen that, but I assumed it must have been earlier, not later, and they'd been keeping SENA online up to date.

Asinine me.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:37:17
No conflicts found.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:10:16
Visually, the ermine spots are so tightly packed that they are hard to identify, but I found no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:21:01
At 20:1 viewing distance, I find them just identifiable. (Art criticism: But I'd prefer them larger.)


3: Katica von Schwarzwald -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.

Katica: documented Katica DObo (or Dobo Katica) daughter of Istvan Dobo, present at the Seige of Eger (Hungary), 1552 (see attached)

von: Germon for of/from

Scwarzwalf: German place name for Black Forest.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2623/2018-03-04/21-56-21_Katica_1.png
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2623/2018-03-04/21-56-21_Katica_2.png

Name Comments:

Gareth de Taunton at 2018-03-05 09:38:52
Note: Submitter originally wanted "Katya" as the first name but was unable to document it in a way that was compliant with SENA Appendix C to be used with the German "von Schwarzwald". If such documentation could be found, that would be submitter's preference. Otherwise, she is still happy with Katica.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 23:33:00
Found while looking for something else.

SSNO volume 2, p. 552, sn. Katjanka(?) has
Cum Anna Kathianka ... priuigna domini Nikel Yelenyovvicz 1450
Katha, vxor Nicolai Jelenowicz 1441

SENA Appendix A for North Slavic notes that "In Polish, i/y/j switches are common" so that would get the submitter close with Kathyanka? Also, North Slavic and German are compatible per Appendix C.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-03-10 22:35:58
I found Catia in English. By precedent in the Feb 2015 cover letter late 16 and early 17th century english given names can borrowed into German. Catia Davemford, female christened on 09 Feb 1633 in Cheshire, England Batch #K13073-2 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW2Y-WX4

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:16:03
Catia actually seems to be the closest to what the submitter asked for, if she doesn't mind the "k" to "c" switch, and I found not conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:24:00
An initial K/C switch in English is quite common. [Remainder of comment removed as irrelevant.]

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 09:39:47
I believe we need to change the submitted 'von' to 'vom/von dem' or 'zum'

The byname "zum Schwarzwald" is dated to 1378 in Karl Schmidt's Die Hausnamen und Hauszeichen im mittelalterlichen Freiburg. The spelling Schwartzwald is found in a 1570 map made by Abraham Ortelius. A byname using "vom" is also feasible; [Dedrich Schweickhardt vom Schwartzwald, Æthelmearc]

Katica is apparently a Slovenian/Hungarian diminutive of Katherine which is a permissable combination with a German byname, although I can't find a better source for 'Katica.' It appears free of conflict. The closest is 'Katrina von dem Schwarzwald.'

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-06 03:58:40
The full citation for the byname is:
[February 2012 LoAR, A-ÆTHELMEARC] Dedrich Schweickhardt vom Schwartzwald.
The byname zum Schwarzwald is dated to 1378 in Karl Schmidt's Die Hausnamen und Hauszeichen im mittelalterlichen Freiburg. The spelling Schwartzwald is found in a 1570 map made by Abraham Ortelius. A byname using vom is also feasible; therefore, this byname can be registered as submitted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:39:00
Can't read the first reference; it's too blurry when enlarged enough to read. The second reference refers back to a book I know nothing about. Agree with Triskele about the toponymic.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2018-03-06 13:08:54
Dobó Katica is probably a fictional character. Later histories or traditions assigned this name as one of the heroic women who protected the fortress of Eger, but it's uncertain whether such a person ever existed, let alone whether she was actually the commander's relative. (I'm not sure whether the episode involving hot soup poured down the necks of the invaders was an invention of Gárdonyi's or based on historical events.)

The 16th century Hungarian diminutives of Catherine were Kata, Kató, and Katus. Walraven's "Hungarian Feminine Names" (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/magfem2.html) documents them in the following spellings: Cata, Catha, Cathus, Catus, Chata, Chatus; Kata, Katha, Katho, Kathws, Kato, Katta, Katus, Katws.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 15:51:47
I didn't find any conflict.


4: Kolbrandr Haukr -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Trimaris LoI of May 31, 2017 as submitted.

Argent, ahawk stooping vert maintaining in its talons an arrow azure within a bordure rayonny sable.

Device Comments:

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 09:44:46
08-2017 LoAR Reason for Return: This device must be returned for violation of SENA A2C2, which requires that the orientation of charges be recognizable. The arrow is neither fesswise nor bendwise, and thus blurs the distinction between the two orientations.

It looks like the orientation of the arrow has been addressed but we should maybe include that in the blazon as well?

Argent, a hawk stooping vert maintaining in its talons an arrow azure fesswise, within a bordure rayonny sable.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-05 11:31:02
Except the arrow is bendwise, not fesswise. We also don't need that final comma (for peripheral ordinaries we use a word (a conjunction or a preposition: 'and', 'within', etc) or a comma, but not both).

So:

Argent, a hawk stooping vert maintaining in its talons an arrow azure bendwise within a bordure rayonny sable.

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 11:49:37
D'uh, thank you. It's been -that- kind of a Monday :)

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:20:23
Agreed. The arrow is bendwise. No conflicts found.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-06 04:00:38
Name registered August 2017.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:39:32
The arrow is bendwise inverted. No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-06 10:12:31
Whoops, missed that. I also note that my blazon above has 'azure' in the wrong place. So:

Argent, a hawk stooping vert maintaining in its talons an arrow bendwise inverted azure within a bordure rayonny sable.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 16:02:44
I would like to see the arrow considerably thicker, to make it more recognizable. As it is, it nearly disappears at the 20:1 distance.

I didn't find any conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 17:47:54
I find it visible, but thicker wouldn't hurt.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-21 09:22:49
This was a redraw to make the arrow more distinctly "fesswise".

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-21 09:25:45
Oops - not "fesswise" - if the arrow needs to be thicker - that can be corrected.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 07:24:16
Waiting for client approval (just sent the email) - here is the redraw.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-22 17:05:20
The shaft could stand to be unrealistically thicker, but with the head and fletching so much more visible, that's perhaps unnecessary.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-22 17:15:02
I apologize for not bringing this up before, but compare the first image below from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=55423 for the Barony of Glymm Mere's Orden de Juana, returned for the gouttes' shape and with a note "The bordure should also be drawn with fewer, thicker rayons." The second image is the registered version.

If this submission could be re-redrawn so that such a note--or just possibly a return, since these "rayons" are rather smaller--does not mar the permanent file, I believe it would be a service to submitter. And again I apologize for asking belatedly.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 08:18:50
Redraw approved by the client!

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-24 09:59:21
Will have a redraw when I get home.


5: Maeva Eiriksdottir -New Badge

OSCAR thinks the name is registered as Mæva Eíríksdóttir in April of 2003, via Drachenwald.

(Fieldless) a windmill or.

co-owner's name is Gareth Dalyngrigge (Monte Watson)

Badge Comments:

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 10:06:03
Conflict with Katheline van Weye, (Fieldless) A windmill Or sailed vert issuant from a mount couped sable. registered jointly with Ryan Dollas, in February of 2009 (via Atenveldt): conflict resolved through permission to conflict.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-06 04:11:37
This is not a conflict. There is 1 DC for Fieldless, 2nd DC for changing the tincture of the sails and a possible 3rd for the issuant from a mount.

1: Image 1

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-06 11:32:32
We weren't sure the color difference of the sails would be considered enough to be worthy of a DC. Glad to know it is! Thank you!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:04:42
The ruling cited by Lord Magnus in the next sub-thread requires that "the sails must be drawn such that they are half the charge." They are in Katheline's, but I don't think they are in the submission with its taller tower. It might be a good idea to redraw with enlarged vanes. (Medical pun, perhaps regrettably, intended.)

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-05 10:13:16
[May 2008 LoAR, R-Atenveldt]
Katheline van Weye and Ryan Dollas. Joint badge. (Fieldless) A windmill vert, sailed purpure, issuant from an earthen mount proper.
This is returned as there is no defined proper tincture for dirt; dirt can vary significantly in color from red to brown to white. The ground beneath a windmill, like that of a beacon, is an optional detail worth no difference. However, a windmill actually issuant from a mount or a trimount would be a CD from a windmill.
We grant a CD for changing the tincture of a windmill's sails, therefore the sails must be drawn such that they are half the charge. The sails on this windmill are too small, which is also grounds for return.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 16:37:36
The returned badge can be seen at:
https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=5882
The registered badge can be seen at:
https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=8359

IMO, the vanes in this submission are not big enough to constitute "half" of the charge. Therefore, this has two DCs from the badge of Katheline van Weye and Ryan Dollas, one for fieldlessness and one for removing the secondary mount.

This is clear of:

Ivanov von Schloss
Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in July of 1971:
Ermine, a tower Or.
Due to the following precedent:
Aleksandr the Traveller. Badge. (Fieldless) A windmill vert maintaining through the sinister chief blade a tilting spear fesswise reversed Or.
This badge does not conflict with the badge for Sheri Lynn of Emerson Lake, Or, a tower vert. There is a CD between a tower and a windmill with its sails in the default orientation (in saltire).
Thus there is one DC for fieldlessness and one for type of charge.

The same is true for:
Brusten de Bearsul
Either the name or the following device associated it (or both) were registered in December of 1975:
Per fess embattled azure and vert, a tower Or.
Nothing else noted.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-07 22:19:04
Now I get visions of Don Quixote over this submission.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-03-06 01:07:08
When putting a badge with joint ownership, put it in as Mæva Eíríksdóttir and Gareth Dalyngrigge.

Also please don't publish modern names in the notes.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:42:45
Gareth's name was registered 2/11 via Trimaris. No conflicts found. Agree with Magnus about the potential conflict with Katherine. Agree with Ragged Staff about the owners of the badge.


6: Magos Kolskeggr -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Micahel Corey(7/2008), Michael Grey (4/1999), Michael Wickwar (12/1991), Mikael Carhu (6/1999)

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. p 13 Magos

Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. p 13 (last) Kolskeggr

Correction to Name (2018-Mar-25 19:03:40): Name corrected to be Magnos Kolskeggr, with same supporting documentation.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 04:13:14
I honestly can't see "Magos" in my copy of Geirr Bassi, nor can I find it in Lind. I wonder what name he wants?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:06:01
Best bet from my ignorance is the very common <Magnus>. Perhaps the submission's handwriting could be looked at again?

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 17:39:55
The "tricky" bit is that there is the name "Magons," it may be a variant of Magnus, in medieval Sweden.
SMP sn. Ake (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Ake.pdf)
p. 8 of the PDF
Magons Akason, 1481

sn. Brodhir (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Brodhir.pdf)
p. of the PDF
Magons Brorson j Edzsta, 1486

sn. Germund (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Germund.pdf)
Magons Germundi, 1489

SMP doesn't have Magons listed as an entry under Magnus though, so I might be wrong.

If the submitter does want Magons instead of Magnus, then we might need to construct the byname to be within 500 years of the given name.

Tilnavne i den islandske oldlitteratur by Finnur Jónsson has:
kolskeggr, Þorsteinn Ldn. IX--X. `Kulskæg', med kulsort skæg
[Þorsteinn kolskeggr, Landnámabók 9-10th c., "coal-beard", with a coal-black beard]

So I'm not certain a 9-10th c. name works with a 15th c. name.

Sibeal inghean Mhurchadha (Lymphad) at 2018-03-25 18:59:34
Handwriting has been reviewed, and I believe you are correct that the name should be Magnos

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-25 19:17:29
Magnus or Magnos, Sibeal Lymphad?

Sibeal inghean Mhurchadha (Lymphad) at 2018-04-05 20:17:20
It looks like an o to me, but I will have someone else take another look.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 16:43:48
Whether Magos or Magnus, I didn't find any conflict.


7: Merewyn Sunnild -Resub Device

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Per fess purpure and azure, an owl contourny and increscent argent.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-05 09:01:28
As blazoned these charges would default to being on either side of the division. Reblazon:

Per fess purpure and azure, in fess an owl contourny and increscent argent.

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 10:11:36
LoAR August 2017, Reason for Return: This device is returned for redraw. SENA Appendix H states, "In many cases, a charge overlying a low-contrast complex line of division will render the line of division unidentifiable. Thus, divided fields with low-contrast tinctures with complex lines of division will be registered with a charge overlying the line division only if the line of division remains readily identifiable." In this submission, the two primary charges overlay the low-contrast complex line of division, obscuring it sufficiently to render it unrecognizable to many commenters.

Reason for return was addressed (even though the combination of purpure and azure is still very low contrast it's not prohibited - yet).

I concur with the improved blazon provided by Iago.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-06 04:21:40
Name registered as Merewyn Sunnild August 2017. No conflict found.
The previous device submission was Merewyn Sunnild. Device. Per fess wavy purpure and azure, in fess an owl contourny and an increscent argent.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:44:30
"and an in crescent" No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-06 10:13:28
"increscent"

So: Per fess purpure and azure, in fess an owl contourny and an increscent argent.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-07 16:54:51
The increscent is rather tilted, though an artists' note might suffice.

I didn't find any conflict.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-21 09:27:08
The tilt can be corrected.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 07:25:45
Here is the redraw, client approval pending.

1: Image 1

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 18:26:31
Client approved the redraw!

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:34:45
This new submission addresses the matter of obscuring a low-contract complex line of division, and I agree with Iago's reblazon. I also find the colors better on the redraw than on the original.

Closest found was Elaine d'Hibou The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 2010 (via the West): Per bend vert and Or, an owl contourny head facing sinister argent. Clear.


8: Philippe d'Artaignan -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2007, via Trimaris.

Or, on a saltire between four fleur de Lys azure, a pair of rapiers argent, and overall, a wolf's head cabossed proper.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-05 08:57:21
There is no default proper colouration for a wolf. We have in the past registered a few 'grey wolves proper' but not since the 80s (aside from 1 grandfathering), though I can't find any precedent specifically disallowing them.

And although the past examples seem to be a mix of considering the grey a colour or a metal, current practice is to consider grey equivalent to argent, which means this head doesn't have the necessary contrast with the Or field.

The name Philippe d'Artaignan was registered in February of 2007 (via Trimaris). The 'Lord' and an extra 'l' have confused things.

I'm not clear on how an individual's device submission can be associated to a Shire.

Mayken van der Alst (Triskele) at 2018-03-05 09:57:34
LoAR Augsur 2017/ Reason for Return: This device is returned for presumption on the arms of France, in violation of A6B1. Per the LoAR of June 1995, "Neither France Ancient (Azure semy-de-lys Or) nor France Modern (Azure, three fleurs-de-lys Or) may be used in SCA heraldry, either as the field (or part thereof) or on a charge. To do so constitutes a claim to connection to French royalty."

The original cause for return has been addressed. I agree that the contrast of the wolf's head against the field is a bit iffy.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-09 04:30:58
Kingdom could return it for contrast of the overall wolf head with the field. One solution would be make the wolf head some color other than azure. Issues with overall charges and their overlap with other charges are best decided by Wreath.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:46:13
The head is not on the saltire, but surmounting it. It's not overall because it doesn't overlap the fleurs-de-lys. There's no proper tincture for wolves, according to the Glossary of Terms. My best try at blazoning this is "Or, on a saltire azure two rapiers in saltire argent, surmounted by a grey wolf's head cabossed proper, all between four fleurs-de-lys azure." No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:21:41
I don't believe overall requires that the charge overlap everything on the field (as I once claimed, in error, on another submission), but only that it overlap the primary charge. However, it does so insufficiently here; it needs to be enlarged in order not to be barely overall. Whether this can be done in the present design--only the basemost fleur has much space between it and the head, and the charged saltire can be narrowed only a little while narrowing the rapier hilts--I do not know.

But for the blazon, providing for proper contrast, with our usual plural for the secondaries, and removing commas excess to requirements:

Or, on a saltire between four fleurs-de-lys azure a pair of rapiers argent and overall a wolf's head cabossed sable.

This will require recoloring the head with a significantly darker shade of gray.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:23:33
Complexity count (if my reblazon above is implemented): Or + saltire + fleurs-de-lys + azure + rapiers + argent + head + sable = 8, our maximum without special justification.

Modar Neznanich (Volk) at 2018-03-08 10:29:16
Wouldn't the wolf head be considered a quaternary charge as it lays over/atop the rapiers (tertiary charges)? SENA states in Appendix I.C.: "Charges on tertiary charges are known as quaternary charges and are not allowed, unless documented as an Individually Attested Pattern." There certainly is an appearance of 4 layers, there is the field, on top of that is the saltire, on top of the saltire are the rapiers and on top of that is the wolf head.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-08 18:27:13
"on" in the rule you cite refers, I believe, to lying entirely on, not to overlapping.

The explanation in SENA, at Appendix I, section D, "Overall Charge Group" does not mention overall charges lying over tertiary charges as well as primary charges. I'm not sure if such a situation has ever come up. From the Oct 2017 LOAR, under Returns-Atenveldt:

Robbert Broekhuijsen. Device. Per bend sinister gules and argent, an Oriental dragon in annulo azure, in base a bugle reversed vert surmounted by two arrows inverted in saltire sable.
This device has charges surmounting a secondary charge. Discussion of whether this practice is allowable, or a violation of SENA Appendix I.D, which requires overall charges to cross the center line of the device and surmount the primary charge group, is currently underway in OSCAR and will be decided at the December Wreath meeting.
(returned administratively)
Unfortunately, I cannot access the September 2017 LOI's, and none of the December LOARs have anything about this.

While the above concerns overall charges on secondary charges, it could give guidence for overall charges on tertiaries. Personally, I consider it allowable, as long as the overall charge is properly drawn WRT to primary. YMMV.

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2018-03-14 07:46:33
I would argue that the tincture depicted i much closer to sable than to the natural coloring of a grey wolf. That would give it correct contrast with the underlying field. The charge is barely overall though... I would estimate that less than a quarter and probably closer to a fifth is actually on the field. WRT the ability to have an overall charge surmounting tertiaries. Appendix J lists designs with three or more charge groups that have been documented. This arrangement appear to fall under "A primary charge group, any type of secondary charge group, and an overall charge (a label only can be overall and in chief), with a tertiary charge group on the primary charge group and any ordinary".

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-15 05:16:57
Given there are several issues with the device that may be considered to require a ruling by Wreath I would send it up for an expert opinion. These are rule judgements that kingdom doesn't need to make and the advice is when in doubt send it up.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-15 19:42:02
I believe it would be a major service to submitter if he were allowed to enlarge and darken the wolf's head. But in any case, for better hope of registration it should be reblazoned (with other adjustments) as sable:

Or, on a saltire between four fleurs-de-lys azure a pair of rapiers argent and overall a wolf's head cabossed sable

This is suggested by http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/08/10-08lar.html s.n. Cicily Bridges, which states that, although "Blazoned on the Letter of Intent as being proper, the bridge is tinctured in a very dark gray" and "grey is equivalent to argent in SCA armory", "We have registered such dark grey as sable, in the past. Doing so here allows us to accept this device."

I do not myself believe the head here is "a very dark gray", but if Lymphad doubts both that and its barely overall status, certainly it should be sent up to Wreath.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-21 09:30:07
We can lighten the grey on the submission.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-21 11:15:40
Wrong direction. It needs to be darkened in order to contrast with the metal field.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 07:26:31
Updated from 50% grey to 30% - pending client approval

1: Image 1

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-22 09:09:28
Making it lighter makes the problem worse, not better. We need improved contrast with the Or field.

Calpurnia Fortunata (Seacat) at 2018-03-22 09:50:26
I agree. The lighter shade of gray is making it blend in more with the Or background. Maybe try going from 50% to 55 or 60%?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-22 17:20:01
No, you want at least 80% gray, more likely 85%. The target is "very dark gray".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-22 17:21:46
See also the comments about "barely overall" above.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-24 07:58:23
The RGB value of the grey for the wolf is 124/124/125 - 50% is around 127/127/127

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-24 08:25:24
I colored half of this in roughly 80% grey

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-24 09:08:03
I estimated right, I think: 80% good, 85% better.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:46:37
The wolf's head on this device is, to me, "barely overall", and in the past that was reason for return. Also, I believe an overall charge is required to contrast with the field, and not with the underying charge. The problem here, at least for me, is that so much of the head lies on the saltire that it is hard to identify it if it is dark colored. If the head were larger and a different/lighter color like red, there would be better contrast with the saltire and it would better qualify as overall. If we were to make the wolf's head slightly smaller so that it does not overhang the saltire and make it argent then the contrast would be better, and the charge would not be barely overall. Just suggestions though.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:35:13
I don't think "slightly smaller" would get the head entirely on the saltire. And if we made the head a great deal smaller to fit, lying over the rapiers, we'd run into the very recent ruling, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2018/01/18-01lar.html#23, Gráinne Shionnach, that when "nothing in SENA allows for charges surmounting secondary charges", it means that arrangement can't be registered.

I again urge

Or, on a saltire between four fleurs-de-lys azure a pair of rapiers argent and overall a wolf's head cabossed sable

with sable in this instance 85% gray, preferably with white internal detailing, and the head enlarged enough to "have a significant portion on the field" as required by SENA.


9: Shire of Dragon's Chase -Resub Device Change

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Chequy argent and sable, three dragons passant wings addorsed in anuulo gules within a laurel wreath vert.

Old Item: , to be retained as a badge.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-05 10:05:14
No conflict found. I believe there is a step from period practice for charges in annulo not in their default orientation.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-05 10:18:32
The name is Dragons Chase, Shire of
This branch-name was registered in July of 2017 (via Trimaris).

This laurel wreath looks open enough to get returned.
[September 2016 LoAR, R-Gleann Abhann]
Ravens Hold, Shire of. Device. Per saltire argent and gules, a raven migrant sable within a laurel wreath vert.
This device is returned for redraw. The laurel wreath is too open at the top and should come nearly to a full circle.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:53:47
"annulo" Don't they need to tell us what their old device is, and when it was registered? I believe they will need to remove the laurel wreath from it if it's to be used as a badge. No conflicts found.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-06 10:17:22
◦The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1991 (via Trimaris): Sable, on a pile argent surmounted by a laurel wreath counterchanged, a manatee azure.

And yes, they can't keep that as a badge. They could keep it as Ancient Arms, though.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-03-06 23:55:00
Oscar does not have "retain as ancient arms", only retain as a badge. However the SH can make a note on the LoI the group would like the badge retained as ancient arms.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:48:52
Agreed.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-08 18:37:35
I find the dragons extremely hard to identify, especially at a 20:1 distance. I agree the wreath is mis-formed.

I didn't find any conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-08 23:36:10
The dragons will get even harder to see if they're more closely confined inside a near-circular wreath. I'm not sure this design can be made registerable.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-09 04:25:01
The checky field and complex shape of three dragons make this design difficult to pull off. Past registrations with three items within the Laurel wreath used simple charges and had the unregistrable open wreath. This design is visually attractive but I doubt it can be made identifiable.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-21 09:34:55
If we fix the laurel wreath, will we need a new petition?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-22 10:26:28
I think you would so get a new petition. It is not worth risking an administrative return with branch armory.

Nope (Trireme) at 2018-03-22 07:27:51
Redrew the laurel wreath - will fix the teeny gap before it's submitted. Pending client approval, and new petition sent out for signatures.

1: Image 1

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:49:13
I like the redraw better.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-04-01 17:37:27
Concur. In particular, the little bit more of the chiefmost dragon's head lying on argent (just by the width of its tongue) increases identifiability amazingly!


10: Tyrvi Magosdottir -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Þóra Hrafnsdóttir(5/2013)

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, p-15 (first) Tyrvi

Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, p-13 (last) Magos

Old Norse Name, Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, p-18 (first) dottir

Correction to Name (2018-Mar-25 19:03:28): Correct Surname to Magnosdottir. Spelling error was carried from Father's submission to daughter's submission.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 04:15:30
Same comment as for submission number 6 -- I'm not sure what name "Magos" is?

ffride wlffsdotter at 2018-03-07 18:07:35
There is the name "Magons," it may be a variant of Magnus/Mogens, in medieval Sweden.
SMP sn. Ake (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Ake.pdf)
p. 8 of the PDF
Magons Akason, 1481

sn. Brodhir (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Brodhir.pdf)
p. 8 of the PDF
Magons Brorson j Edzsta, 1486

sn. Germund
(http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Germund.pdf)
p. 11 of the PDF
Magons Germundi, 1489

If we do assume that it is a variant of Magnus, like the better-attested Mogens, then we can form the medieval-period Swedish "Magonsdottir":
SMP sn. Gunnar (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Gunnar.pdf)
p. 27 of the PDF
"aff Gwnner Mogensson" 1498

sn. Cecilia (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Cecilia.pdf)
p. 18 of the PDF
Cissiilla... änke efter fogden Twffue Mogensson, 1491

That doesn't solve the problem that Geirr Bassi p. 15 has "Tyrvi" as a masculine name though. Could she mean the Swedish name Thyrvi?

SMP sn. Thyrvi doesn't have a full entry, but provides the spellings:
Thyrvi, Thuiri, Thuri, and Thyri.
http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/marshal-oais/nav/isof/namn/nau/smp/smp-sok

But that might be enough for the submitter to get a Swedish "Thyrvi Magonsdottir"?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-09 04:16:54
This one is simple. The documentation cited is wrong so it is ask the submitter what is intended or return it. Suggestions might be helpful depending on the submitter's wishes.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-08 18:44:42
There's no conflict with Tyrvi regardless of the byname.

Thyrvi/Þyrvi/ðyrvi followed by anything starting with "M" is also clear.


11: Verena von Talhain -New Name Change & New Device Change

OSCAR NOTE: 'Old Item' should contain the former primary name. The form that is there is not a registered name.

Azure, on a chief-pale Or, six seeblatter Gules.

Old Item: Verana von Wulfflingen, to be released.
Old Item: Device, to be released.
Submitter desires a feminine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Please note that the name Verana von Talhain was preiously submitted and passed when I was living in Aethelmarc.

All name elements are from the Acadamy of ST. Gabriel article, "German Names from Rottweil, Baden, Wurtenburg, 1441. see attachment

Azure, on a chief-pale Or, six seeblatter Gules.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2623/2018-03-04/22-51-45_verenadoc.jpeg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2623/2018-03-04/22-51-47_vontalhaindoc.jpeg

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-05 09:58:21
German Names from Rottweil, Baden-Württemberg, 1441 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/rottweil1441.html
Feminine Names s.n. Frena
Verena

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/german/rottweilsur.html
Surnames s.n. Talhain
von Talhain

Gareth de Taunton at 2018-03-05 10:00:32
CORRECTIONS: All instances of Verana above should be "Verena" (middle letter is an "e", not an "a").

Submitter was originally "Verena von Talhain" O&A: Verena von Talhain This name, registered in February of 2010 (via AEthelmearc), was changed to Verena von Wúlfflingen in October of 2011 (via AEthelmearc).

Submitter wishes to release Wúlfflingen and return to her previous Talhain.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:55:18
Docs check out now that Gareth has straightened out the given name issue.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-08 18:49:44
I didn't find any conflict.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:50:55
Looks good.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2018-03-05 09:59:58
No conflict found.

Seraphina Delphino (Ragged Staff) at 2018-03-06 01:09:35
The previous device is Azure, on a chevron engrailed between three wolf's heads erased Or three seeblätter azure.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2018-03-06 09:56:05
Interesting: the PicDic lists the chief-pale, but I see no instances of a previous registration. No conflicts found. The plural of seeblatt is correctly spelled as seeblätter, but it has also been registered as seeblatter.

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-06 10:20:45
The PicDic itself gives an instance:
Renzo di Ilario di Federigo Venturius bears: Vert, a chief-pale ermine.

The O&A also lists: •Muiredach mac Robartaig◦The following device associated with this name was registered in July of 2017 (via Atenveldt): Chevronelly inverted azure and Or, on a chief-pale sable between two doves respectant gules, a double-headed axe Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:32:33
Fixing that and the other typos for Lymphad's convenience:

Azure, on a chief-pale Or six seeblätter gules

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2018-03-07 09:35:52
One can hope our Sovereigns will accept this arrangement as the default for six charges on a chief-pale. It's certainly the way to "fill the entire chief-pale, both the horizontal and vertical portions" (http://mistholme.com/dictionary/chief-pale/).

Iago ab Adam at 2018-03-07 09:46:37
My hope, if this passes, is that this is explicitly stated to be the default for 6 charges on a chief-pale. This arrangement makes sense, but as a scribe if I had to emblazon this from the blazon I'd probably panic a little without being able to verify it.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2018-03-08 19:12:00
There are two registrations of "a chief-pale" and one of "a pale and a chief". Nothing for "a chief and a pale," "a chief with a pale," nor "a pale with a chief". It looks like this is a very rare charge in the SCA. However, as it is in the PicDic, it is acceptable.

I didn't find any conflict.

Bronwen o Gydweli (White Antelope) at 2018-04-01 08:52:18
No conflicts found.


In Service I Remain,

Sibeal inghean Mhurchadha, OP

Lymphad


OSCAR counts 4 Names, 1 Name Change, 5 Devices, 2 Device Changes and 1 Badge. There are a total of 13 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]


Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos