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Ansteorra Kingdom ILoI dated 2017-11-21

Hope you had an enjoyable All Hallow's Eve

1: Arthur Morganson -New Name & New Device

Sable, a lozenge gules fimbriated and a ram's head erased argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language (English) most important.
Culture (Late period) most important.

See attached documentation

Correction to Device (2017-Dec-11 14:12:59): Submitter has approved the redraw provided by Kryss Kostarev at 2017-12-07.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/16-46-41_Arthur_Morganson_name_doc1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/16-46-42_Arthur_Morganson_name_doc2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/16-46-44_Arthur_Morganson_name_doc3.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/16-46-45_Arthur_Morganson_name_doc4.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-11-22 19:45:56
I commend the submitter on his thorough documentation for a late period English, masculine name.

We can, however simplify things a little:

Arthur Jewkes, male, christened 1559, Ludlow,Shropshire,England. Batch no. P00680-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWDJ-6YX)
Roger Morganson, male, married 1560, Ludlow,Shropshire,England. Batch no. M00680-1
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NL9D-HM5)

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 18:11:57
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:56:09
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:16:51
I believe the fimbriation is so narrow here that it will be returned, as was the case for the images below, all with fimbriation no narrower than here. They were respectively for:

Apolonia Zawadzka, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=70908. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/02/17-02lar.html#204 declared, "As the fimbriation is so thin that it looks like a lighter outline line, we have the appearance of a gules fess on a vert field."

Ewander Maclachlan, https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=6392. On http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/08/08-08lar.html, "The 'fimbriation' in this device is too thin to be considered such."

Lucrezia Colze, https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=52609. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/07/15-07lar.html#62, "the fimbriation is too thin and can be easily interpreted as a relatively thick drawing line, introducing a metal on metal issue."

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Iago ab Adam at 2017-11-22 10:12:40
Reblazon: Sable, on a lozenge gules fimbriated a ram's head erased argent.

Concur with Lord Gerard on the fimbriation being too narrow.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-22 17:43:01
Concur with Maister Iago on the blazon.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-11-24 15:54:05
I suggest an addendum:
Sable, on a lozenge gules fimbriated a ram's head erased fesswise argent.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-11-24 16:46:42
I agree that the orientation of the head should be mentioned, but I'd change the word order slightly, otherwise it sounds like it's the erasing that's fesswise instead of the whole head: Sable, on a lozenge gules fimbriated a ram's head fesswise erased argent.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-24 18:45:47
When I actually consider it, I see that the head could well be the default palewise, so I concur. It should be blazoned that way on the redraw.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-11-25 14:42:29
Iago ab Adam said:

I agree that the orientation of the head should be mentioned, but I'd change the word order slightly, otherwise it sounds like it's the erasing that's fesswise instead of the whole head
Good point! I agree.

Thomasine Lestrange at 2017-11-23 22:54:02
Agree that fimbration is way too thin - can barely see it. Redraw?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 18:10:29
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:56:57
Agree about the narrow fimbriation and with Iago's reblazon. No conflicts found.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-12-07 08:24:52
It is very easy to widen the fimbriation. If this is acceptable to everyone and if someone can check with the submitter to make sure this is acceptable to them, I humbly submit this as an alternate emblazon. The original artwork has not been modified except to be slightly reduced to leave room for the wider fimbriation.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-07 11:48:57
Hope it's accepted.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-12-07 11:49:59
I've sent the submitting herald a message, so I'll get back when I hear back.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-12-11 14:22:07
Submitter approves the redraw.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-12-07 12:03:33
Is the head bendwise?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-07 19:54:12
I think calling it fesswise, in concurrence with Maister Iago and Lions Heart above, is far safer. In that case, the only arguably anomalous element is the angle of the erasing, and I don't believe that argument would hold.

For bendwise, the angles of both the head's vertical and horizontal axes are anomalous.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-12-07 22:28:07
I'm fine with it either way, as long as it's reproducible and doesn't blur the line between the orientations.


2: Emma de Davyntre -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2012, via Gleann Abhann.

(Fieldless) On a butterfly, purpure a triquetra argent

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:20:22
Losing the comma:

(Fieldless) On a butterfly purpure a triquetra argent

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 18:18:16
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:57:23
No conflicts found. Agree with Gerard's blazon touchup.

Beorhthanc Thuck (Sanguinaris) at 2017-12-12 15:41:18
Not finding a conflict. Agree with Gerard's Blazon touch up as well.


3: Henesey Donyhue -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of December 02, 2013 as submitted.

(Fieldless) A trefoil vert within and conjoined to a sea-serpant in annulo head to chief and vorant of its own tail argent

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-21 19:13:33
Henesey Donoghue registered in March of 2014 (via Ansteorra). No conflict found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:28:02
Fixing the tiny typo:

(Fieldless) A trefoil vert within and conjoined to a sea-serpent in annulo head to chief and vorant of its own tail argent

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:58:09
No conflicts found.


4: Hextilda Corbet -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Atlantia.

(Fieldless) A skull argent semy of mullets azure

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:10:08
Suggested blazon: (Fieldless) A skull argent mullety azure.
No conflict found. Is the submitted skull too modern?

1: Image 1

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:30:17
I see no conflict.

I think the skull looks very much like a Dia de los Muertos skull.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-27 20:51:26
I am not sufficiently attuned to Mexican culture to have an automatic response, but my Google Image search on Dia de los Muertos candy skulls finds in the first few hundred a very strong tendency toward multicolor rather than bicolor decorations, and no semy-like designs, certainly none obscuring the teeth.

Searches on skull tattoos and motorcycle skulls produce image fields far more reminiscent of Mistholme's depiction than of the submission.

I cannot think of any other common modern depictions of skulls. (The Punisher uses a death's head with teeth reduced to four and elongated.)

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-11-30 00:05:01
That was my knee-jerk reaction as well, but then I live in South Texas, where if you want anything, and I mean anything, with a floral-painted skull on it, you can find it. Flowers in the eye sockets would put it over the top, but the overall mullety doesn't say calavera to me.

Hextilda Corbet at 2017-12-07 00:52:33
(Submitter here)

This is a fair point! It was definitely not my conscious intent to emulate Dia de los Muerto sugar skulls. I can see the possible concern (especially for cultural appropriation/inadvertent offensiveness) -- but I am also Latinx and living in central Texas. I hope this helps to alleviate any cultural concerns.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-12-07 10:36:44
Hextilda, If the drawing of the skull is deemed problematic, would you find a redraw using the heraldic skull Magnus posted acceptable?

Hextilda Corbet at 2017-12-07 13:17:04
Absolutely. I'd be more likely to render it in that style, anyway.

Hextilda Corbet at 2017-12-07 13:48:25
I did a quick redraw in Photoshop using the image supplied. Does this work better? (Also: do the eyes/nose/etc. need to be blackened out?)

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-07 20:04:38
The rule is that the field should not show through, as though the charge were a mask rather than a complete skull, although this has not always been insisted on. This seems to be interpreted as either making the skull a single color or else showing its shadowed interior through the openings.

I'm left wondering whether your skull should also be mullety inside, but that's likely my idiosyncrasy.

As for the shape, I think it could be either a high-class sugar skull or nothing to do with that. What say you all?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:58:37
No conflicts found.


5: Hextilda Corbet -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Atlantia.

Sable mullety argent, a weaver's shuttle bendwise sinister Or

Badge Comments:

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:24:55
I see no conflicts

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:25:56
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 08:59:19
No conflicts found.


6: Nicola Francesca La Volpina Landini -New Name Change & New Device

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in September of 1992, via Ansteorra as Marcus il Volpe.

Purpure, a seafox countourny argent

Old Item: Marcus Il Volpé, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Nicola - Italian (Latin) Feminine given name, 1527 Nicola (nom) Rome 1527 p88

http://dmnes.org/name/nicole

Francesca - Italian (Latin) feminine given name, 1522x1532 Francesca (nom) DSF p56, 13 http://dmnes.org/name/Frances

Landini - Italian surname, born c. 1335, Fiesole, near Florence - died Sept 2, 1397, Florence, Francesco Landini http://britannica.com/biography/Francesco-Landini

La Volpina - Italian for fox, adj, sobiriquet in Italy (16th century), sobriquets & nicknames, Albert R Frey, p11, "Thunderbolt of Painting", "The sobriquet was given him by the Italians, because of his vehement impulsiveness and rapidity of execution"

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-11-22 04:43:29
Is "Thunderbolt of Painting" where the submitter found the name pattern?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-22 16:56:30
I'd expect <Nicola Francesca la Volpina Landini>.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-22 17:23:06
The book being quoted from is actually Albert R. Frey, Sobriquets and nicknames (Boston, 1888), title page first image below, p. 339, showing that Tintoretto's sobriquet was "The Thunderbolt of Painting", second image below. (Incidentally, the entirety of Frey's p. 11 mentioned in the headmatter, third image below, seems irrelevant to the submission. Nor does his p. ii contribute, being the copyright display.) This seems to be adduced solely to show that sobriquets were used in 16th-c. Italy.

It does not in fact show the name structure submitted, which is highly reminiscent of a non-period sobriquet structure, e.g., <Erwin "the Desert Fox" Rommel>. Nor that <la Volpina> was used as a sobriquet. Nor that it is a period spelling in any version of Italian. That it means 'fox (f.)' in modern Italian we are left to discover ourselves from our favorite dictionaries.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-11-23 04:57:40
Florio's 1598 Worlde of Wordes dictionary, s.v. "Volpino, craftie, slie, wily, subtle, wily-beguly, a yoong fox. Also a kind of fish called a sea foxe." 1598 Dictionary url http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio1598/florio_1598.pdf

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-23 08:49:05
I should have checked that while I was pontificating. Glad you did!

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-11-23 06:50:30
I've never run across the name pattern as submitted. It may be out there somewhere…

Two examples of Southern Italian nicknames are Joanne Baptista Albanese alias Traccho and Bertrardini de Urso alias Veroli, both dated to 1532. 16th and Early 17th C. Southern Italian Nicknames by Andrea L. Hicks. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/southernnicknames.html

Also use of detta can be found in 1612 book "Compendio delle vite di tutti I santi" by Lodovico Zacconi Combi, book 1, s.n. Ioseffo, second column, pg. 41, Maria detta Salome, madre di S. Gioanni Evangelista & di Santo Giacopo Maggiore (Mary called Salome, mother of Saint John the Evangelist and Saint James the Greater). https://books.google.com/books?id=IBxSAAAAcAAJ

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:14:59
Links work. I see no conflicts.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-11-30 00:29:40
Babe Ruth was also called "the Sultan of Swat," and "the Bambino," but Babe was the only thing that ever stood in place of a name. Tintoretto was known as Tintoretto, because his father was a dyer.

Volpe appears as a surname in the Catasto. I find modern surnames of Volpini and Volpino, and a 15th c. painter called Giovanni da Volpino from a placename. A volpino italiano is a modern foxy-looking dog breed.

I have no problem with the nickname, but I think sticking it in the middle of a very formal double-given name and family name is something we should require support for. Nicola la Volpina is fine, as is Nicola Francesca Landini, and even Nicola Francesca Landini da Volpino, but I agree that the submitted form feels like George Herman "Babe" Ruth Jr., a name formation that we would see in a modern biography.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-21 19:16:50
This is not a New Device but a resubmission of a September 1992 Laurel return.
Marcus il Volpe. Device. Azure, a sea-fox argent.
This conflicts with the badge of HMSubmarine Seawolf, cited by Master Hrolf Herjolfssen via Lord Hund: Azure, a sea-wolf argent. (The badges of British ships are registered with the English College of Arms, so this is "real" armory, deserving protection under our current standards.) There's no heraldic difference for sea-fox vs. sea-wolf.

This looks like a conflict with Aeruin as Sruth Waleis
The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1990 (via the West):
Quarterly vert and azure, a seawolf, tailed as a fish, erect and sinister facing argent.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:40:55
Concur on conflict.

And if he turns it around again, he runs into Brand the Black's device, Sep 2000, Checky sable and Or, a seawolf erect argent.

(Almost) idle curiosity: Would he be clear of Humfrey Matthew Lovett's badge, Mar 2016, (Fieldless) A sea-dog rampant argent as quadruped vs. creature erect?

If the same art is adapted on resubmission, note that the field should show inside the loop of the tail.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:17:34
Seadog has 4 legs while a seawolf has two legs and a fish tail.
Humfrey Matthew Lovett. Badge. (Fieldless) A sea-dog rampant argent.
This badge does not conflict with the device of Brand the Black: Checky sable and Or, a seawolf erect argent. There is a DC for the difference between fielded and fieldless design and another DC for the difference between a sea-dog, which is a finned canine quadruped, and a sea-wolf, which has a fish tail.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:31:26
Fixing the tiny typo:

Purpure, a seafox contourny argent

Iago ab Adam at 2017-11-22 10:23:07
I was wondering if a hyphen was needed: all our registered sea-foxes have one, but it's a sample size of 3 and the pattern is definitely mixed for other sea-canines, so I think 'seafox' is fine.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:23:21
I agree with the conflict. As a note, I wouldn't have called this a sea fox. I thought this was a sea wolf until I looked at the blazon.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-27 20:53:14
I do see it as a fox.


7: Randwulf the Hermit -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1991, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) A brown eagle proper trussing a crow sable

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:35:01
No conflict found.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-11-29 23:32:51
As submitting herald, it is my sad duty to report that Randwulf the Hermit was found deceased on November 29 by the Sheriff's Department. Efforts are being made to contact his heraldic heir (sister).

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-11-30 09:49:44
Thank you, Master Tostig. It sounds like this badge might need tweaking, due to the birds being of similar size, so if we can get her word on how she'd like us to move forward, that would be very helpful.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-30 04:33:17
Assuming (I may be wrong) that commentary is now or will become appropriate:

In http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/04/12-04lar.html s.n. Cellach Dhonn inghean Mhic an Mhadaidh, we are told "A properly drawn hawk trussing a bird would have the hawk as obviously the main charge, with the trussed bird smaller and decidedly less important." The proportions in the submission certainly differ from those in the returned device, image below, described in the return as having the birds "practically the same size". Whether the difference is sufficient to meet our Sovereigns' requirement I am not certain.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 09:00:53
No conflicts found.


8: Rónán Fionn Ó'Dubáin -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Purpure, two garbs of barley in saltire, in chief a hops Or

SUBMITTER'S NAME WAS ON THE 10-2015 LoAR

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-21 19:46:10
Rónán Fionn Ó Dubáin is the registered name. It needs to lose the apostrophe.

Suggested blazon: Purpure, in saltire two garbs of barley and in chief a hop cone Or.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:08:52
I see no conflicts

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-11-30 11:11:35
I realize that there is much heraldic confusion between sheaves and garbs, but these look like sheaves. A garb as typically drawn is more stalks than you can easily count, such that a base is created where there is no doubt that the thing can stand by itself, as you do after harvest. Four stalks does not a garb make. This is a reasonable sheaf if it were arrows, and that is too few pieces for a garb. I believe the period blazon confusion exists in the use of the term sheaf for something we'd call a garb, not vice versa; i.e., you can have a very large, fat sheaf, but you can't have a garb with only a few stalks.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-30 13:39:53
One issue is with blazon in SCA heraldry.
To quote Mistholme s.n. Sheaf "in blazonry, the term also refers to a group of three charges, two in saltire surmounted by another palewise." The January and June 2013 Cover Letters discuss the sheaf issue. Basically in SCA blazon, a sheaf is a shorthand for two X in saltire surmounted by another X.
Because of this, I suspect 4 or more grain stalks will get blazoned as a garb. Your thoughts?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-04 18:48:03
I cannot easily decide whether this is rather

Purpure, in saltire two sheaves each of five stalks of barley and in chief a hop cone Or
instead of your
Purpure, in saltire two garbs of barley and in chief a hop cone Or

To begin with, a review of registered devices seems to show "4 or more" as not a reliable dividing line.

The first image below, submitted at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=56585 for Giovanni da Treviso with a garb, was blazoned a sheaf of five stalks of wheat for registration (Nov 2015), and the same had happened for Wilhelm Jeger, second image from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=13037 (Jun 2010).

But the third image, for Helvi av Gotland from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=65580, was accepted as a garb (Sep 2016), and garbs were registered also for the fourth image below, from Agnes von Heidelberg at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=47426 (Jan 2015), and that for Johann der Becker von Aschersleben at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=22555 (Aug 2012), not shown here.

I would have hoped to deduce from these that the criteria for blazoning a sheaf of five stalks when kingdom submits a garb are, along with five countable stalks, tight binding at the waist, which the submission arguably has, and splayed stalks, which it does not have. But exploding that definition is the fifth image below, for Tegan Marie Silvertree from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=46080, submitted and accepted as a garb (Dec 2014).

Adding the submitted blazon onto the scales, let's go with your blazon, Lord Magnus.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-12-05 12:51:24
I suspect the dividing line on this issue may be the 2013 Cover Letters.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 09:01:25
Agree that the hops fruit is called a cone. No conflicts found.


9: Solmundr of Ansteorra -New Name & New Device

Bendy sinister gules and argent, a lion's head guardant and in chief an arrow fesswise Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Meaning most important.

Solmundr - can be found in the Viking Answer Lady's website, attached as well as in Geirr Bassi"s Old Norse Names, documented in the Academy of St Gabriel, also attached

"of Ansteorra" - can be found in the Branch Names allowance - SENA PN1B2f

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/20-14-38_Solmundr_of_Ansteorra_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/20-14-40_Solmundr_of_Ansteorra_name_doc_2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/20-14-41_Solmundr_of_Ansteorra_name_doc_3.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-10-30/20-14-43_Solmundr_of_Ansteorra_name_doc_4.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-11-22 19:52:27
We can simplify the documentation:
Lind col. 1012 sn. Sǫlmundr
Solmundr prestr Ionsson, Diplomatarium Islandicum 1369, 1398.

The branch name "Ansteorra, Kingdom of" was registered "at some point," according to the O and A: http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Ansteorra%2c%20Kingdom%20of

Kudos to the submitter for picking such a nice 14th century Icelandic given name.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:06:18
I see no conflict

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 09:02:01
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:48:10
We call this:

Bendy sinister gules and argent, a lion's head cabossed and in chief an arrow fesswise Or

or else ... a lion's face and ...

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 19:04:09
I see no conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 09:02:45
In addition to Gerard's blazon corrections, there is the matter that an arrow fesswise is point to sinister by default, so this must be specified as head to dexter. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-04 18:53:42
Whoops. Make it

Bendy sinister gules and argent, a lion's head cabossed and in chief an arrow fesswise reversed Or

unless submitter like ... a lion's face and ... better? For that element, I think asking a submitter about alternate terminology may be desirable.


10: Vilhjálmr Þursasprengir -New Name Change & New Device

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in September of 2014, via Ansteorra.

Gules, a pile sable fimbriated argent overall a badger Or

Old Item: Liam Gordon, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Vilhjálmr - Old Norse masculine forename, Geirr Bassi p 16

Þursasprengir - Old Norse nickname-type surname, meaning "giant killer". Geirr Bassi p 30

Geirr Bassi's "The Old Norse Name" is a no photocopy source

Correction to Device (2017-Dec-04 09:12:50): This item has been withdrawn by the submitter. -Bordure

Name Comments:

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 16:53:16
I see no conflicts

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:44:02
No conflict found.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-21 19:32:17
The submitter already has a device registered, so this is not a New Device.
Liam Gordon
The following device associated with this name was registered in April of 2003 (via Ansteorra):
Per pale sable and Or, on a lozenge throughout a mullet of four points counterchanged.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:54:27
I see the fimbriation here as very slightly thicker than that I show for Lucrezia Colze above at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4851&dsn=80929#1. I suspect it will evade the charge of being merely a thick drawing line at least as much by being argent as by its width.

There is a step from period practice for the use of a fimbriated ordinary surmounted by an overall charge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-21 21:59:29
We need another word in the blazon:

Gules, a pile sable fimbriated argent overall a badger rampant Or

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2017-11-24 01:12:23
I agree with that the fimbriation is too thin.

However, I am more concerned with the fact that the pile is mostly obscured by the badger. Both charges are palewise which means they are trying to occupy the same space. I would say that about 3/4 of the pile is hidden by the badger. Drawing the badger passant or dormant would show more of the pile.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-24 14:18:09
There are only two choices at this point: Send it up to Laurel or Return it because the pile is not identifiable.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-24 18:34:06
I find the pile wholly identifiable.

And I believe the fimbriation will be found just acceptable.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 16:44:59
I would suggest a return for redraw and have the badger redrawn slightly smaller and with the body mass sitting slightly more in the center, just enough so the pile would be visible behind it.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-27 19:43:15
And then you risk a return for a barely overall charge. Overall charges require a careful balance in size.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-27 20:09:01
Actually, using the rule of thumb of reversing the layers--laying the pile over the badger and checking whether the latter remains identifiable--there is a danger of return for that reason right now: The four paws are hardly enough.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-11-27 16:51:38
I see no conflicts

Guillermo Pajaro de Escocia at 2017-11-28 20:27:46
After reading the whole commentary above, I have the following questions:

Fimbration: when working this originally the width was adjusted twice for highly similar comments. What exact perportion are we looking for compared to pile??

Badger: client is insisting on rampant, if not overall, could it be on the Pile only?

Many times before submission both pile and badger were adjusted to ensure this type of discussion would be satisfied. Yet, here we are with multiple opinions tearing it apart. Thank you all for any clear suggestions you can provide.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-28 22:18:47
If the submission was considered for "barely overall" and believed acceptable, I can only regret that your consultant was, to the best of my belief, wrong. (And apologize for not considering the question myself until Lord Magnus raised it.) I again declare that I believe your fimbriation adequate, and don't believe it would draw worse than an artist's note even if our Sovereigns disagree.

You have yourself provided a clear suggestion, Señor Guillermo, and one to me welcome. Gules, on a pile sable fimbriated argent a badger Or with a rather broader (aka more Tudor) pile would be far easier to draw acceptably, and would carry no SFPP.

Unfortunately, it very probably conflicts with only one DC from Roger von Allenstein's device, Jun 1975, Gules, on a pile sable fimbriated argent the sword of Damocles pendant Or. (Given the unofficial emblazon at http://atenveldt.org/Heraldry/OrderofPrecedence/memid/2899, reproduced below, I can't believe we'd count the sword and its thread as two charges.) Reversing the tinctures of field and pile would run into Lettice Spindler, Oct 2016, Sable, on a pile gules fimbriated a drop spindle Or, viewable at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=66791. Would your client consider having the pile between two charges? (I'd prefer Or, but argent could work. Either way the complexity count would be only 7.)

Oh, and don't spread the new pile to the corners as shown below. That's not a well-drawn pile there.

1: Image 1

Emma de Davyntre at 2017-11-29 14:08:57
Since there has been a conflict found - Guillermo and I talked about other options involving a similar design, which can be redrawn and mailed to Asterisk.

Per pale gules and sable, three piles in a point argent overall a badger rampant Or.

I think the closest to this one I found is: Maredudd Cethin The following device associated with this name was registered in July of 2004 (via Meridies) and reblazoned in October of 2004 (via Meridies): Per pale gules and sable, a pile inverted ployé throughout argent.

Would there be a difference between three piles in a point and a pile inverted ployé?

1: Image 1

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-29 15:12:30
The device as currently submitted (badger as overall charge) does not have any conflicts.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-11-29 15:18:41
There is no conflict for the current device.

the fimbriation is fine.

I find the pile to be identifiable.

I think the question is if the pile were on top of the badger, could you identify the badger - which I don't feel is a fair test in this case. But if you like badger butts and feet, I think you probably could identify it.

The important question I need to know before the letter closes and becomes my problem: Does Vilhjálmr want this device to be withdrawn, or sent up for Laurel to decide?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-29 17:42:53
Yes, there would be at least one difference, in fact (I think) three DCs, for position (if not an SC), number, and type (the edges), plus another for adding the overall charge. Maredudd won't be a problem.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-11-30 11:19:22
Moot point, but the second design would undoubtedly be returned for lack of contrast, because the gold badger lies substantially on the silver piles. If you imagine that you cannot see any of the badger that overlies argent, you are left with a couple of paws, an ear, and some badger butt.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-30 17:38:09
I don't believe we count it that way. For contrast purposes, the badger is considered to lie wholly on the colored field. This is truly a case of "Who do you believe, me (SENA) or your own eyes?"

Emma de Davyntre at 2017-12-03 23:00:15
I was under the impression that the colored field + metal ordinary = neutral field?

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-12-03 23:36:20
Colored field = colored field, regardless of the ordinary.

Guillermo Pajaro de Escocia at 2017-11-29 15:01:27
Thank you for a clear summation here. As Emma and I discussed, we will now look to the redraw and hopefully move forward with it.

As always, I learn with each submission. All the Best, YIS, Gui

Emma de Davyntre at 2017-11-29 21:38:29
Thank you!

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-11-30 09:48:30
as asked above, Does Vilhjálmr want this device to be withdrawn, or sent up for Laurel to decide?

Emma de Davyntre at 2017-12-03 22:59:25
He is fine with the device being withdrawn - I will send the redraw with the Three Piles in Point to replace it to Asterisk this week.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-12-04 09:13:19
One of the distinguishing characteristics of a badger is the "mask". Here, it's tinctured the same as the rest of the head and body and so isn't much help in identifying it as a badger. According to The Glossary of Terms, they are statant by default, so this one must be specified as rampant. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-04 16:54:59
Concur, about mask and posture. So the replacement submission will be

Gules, three piles in point argent, overall a badger rampant Or

Emma de Davyntre at 2017-12-07 22:20:40
The field is Per Pale Gules and Sable, but if it's clear as Gules, three piles in point argent overall a badger rampant Or then that works too.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-12-09 01:34:07
Apologies. I have not in fact checked for conflicts. You propose either the above or:

Per pale gules and sable, three piles in point argent, overall a badger rampant Or



OSCAR counts 2 Names, 2 Name Changes, 4 Devices and 6 Badges. There are a total of 14 items submitted on this letter.

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