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Northshield ILoI dated 2017-10-23

Greetings unto Honourable Lady Merideth NiShionniach, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield October Internal Letter. Comments are due by November 20, 2017.

1: Caitríona inghean Criomthainn -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2016, via Northshield.

Per saltire azure and erminois, four quatrefoils conjoined in cross slips to center argent

Submission History: Previous device submission, 'Quarterly erminois and azure, four quatrefoils conjoined in cross slips to center', was returned on the June 2017 LOAR as follows:

"Quarterly erminois and azure, in bend sinister two sets of four quatrefoils each in cross and conjoined at their slips argent.

This device must be returned for the appearance of marshalling, in violation of A6F2d, which states that "When any section of such a field contains multiple charges of the same type in a way that cannot be described as a standard single pattern covering the entire field, multiple charges of different types, or multiple charge groups, it creates the appearance of marshalling." The arrangement of the quatrefoils in cross in the sinister chief and dexter base portions of these arms is not a pattern covering the rest of the field, and so meets the definition of this section."

(https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=74189)

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-10-23 18:44:53
Probably best to use the phrasing from the return, since as blazoned there's only one set of quatrefoils:

Per saltire azure and erminois, two sets of four quatrefoils each in cross and conjoined at their slips argent.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:36:53
No conflicts found. I like Iago's new blazon.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-20 12:43:39
No conflict found.


2: Davin of Jararvellir -New Name & New Device

Gules, a badger rampant to sinister argent and on a chief Or three ogresses

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Davin - http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/levy/david.html

"14th c. David Davin Lunel, Rodez

1444 David Davin de Caderousse

1486 Milhau Davin Milhau Marseille"

of Jararvellir - SCA group name registered in November of 1981 (via the Middle). Use follows Branch Name Allowance in SENA.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-10-24 03:27:22
Tweaking the given name documentation:

Jewish Given Names Found in Les Noms Des Israélites en France by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman), sn. David
(http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/levy/david.html) has:
Davin, 14th century.
Davin de Caderousse, 1444
Davin Milhau, 1486

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:27:49
No conflicts found. Verified documentation.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-10-24 12:51:15
This is a very cartoony badger.

From the return of the device submission of Aurora Rose Prindel, June 2017 LoAR via An Tir (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=73923): "Upon resubmission, the submitter should take care to depict the primary charge in a way that will meet the requirements of SENA A2C1, which states "Elements must be drawn in their period forms and in a period armorial style." As depicted in the current submission, this is a very modern cartoon depiction of a raccoon, with the head the same visual weight as the body."

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-24 16:55:09
Aurora Rose's raccoon always made me uneasy, and I was pleased when the return's statement about its head and body told me why that had been so.

I find this a moderately cartoony badger, with the head arguably somewhat enlarged only to distinguish it from similar beasts. I do believe Maister Iago's concern should be ruled on by Wreath.

To obviate such a ruling, submitter and/or his artist might wish to examine other depictions of badgers on OSCAR--e.g., the registered armory at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=18570 for Grace Fenix, at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=12893 for Gabriel de Beaumont, and at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=64754 for Halgir Bjornsson--and adjust the emblazon accordingly.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-10-29 11:28:35
When you compare the ears of this badger to other images of badgers there is a disconnect. They do, however, have more in common with this raccoon, ignoring the tail https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=35264

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-30 15:19:01
Indeed, actual badger ears are bluntly pointed, as in the image below from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_badger, where the top one is the European species, followed by the continental Asian and the Japanese. I think that whatever the verdict on cartoonishess--and the verdict on whether that verdict can be handed down at kingdom level--there needs also to be a verdict as to identifiability. If submitter's artist can draw this well, then s/he can also draw more accurately.

1: Image 1

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:41:14
I immediately saw this creature as a badger, abet one with a very large head. No conflicts found.

Katerinka Lvovicha at 2017-10-28 10:55:14
I think it would suffice to have an artist's note. The submitter is under 5, so as soon as he can read the artist's note himself, I'm sure he will be happy to comply.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-10-29 11:09:34
I was aware of the age of the submitter, but unfortunately it has no relevance to the emblazon. Once registered the emblazon is stuck in time.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-11-01 17:20:10
If the submitter would accept this rendition, here is an alternate version of their emblazon.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Iohannes Glenfidanus at 2017-11-01 18:39:38
I think this is an excellent revision to the emblazon and input from the submitter should be sought. Now in comparison, the original strikes me as a raccoon more than a badger where before this was posted it did not do so.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-03 10:32:44
In the color version the black "mask" on the badger's face should be filled in--something the submission did get right--not just outlined.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-11-03 12:02:49
Here you go.

1: Image 1

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-11-05 19:28:45
The submitter and mom are pleased with your redraw, Kryss. They send their thanks. We will be using it to move this on to external commentary. :-)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-05 23:06:55
Hooray!

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-11-06 06:22:40
They are very welcome. I am so glad that I was able to help.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-20 12:36:27
No conflict found.


3: Galti holtaskalli -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Northshield LoI of March 31, 2017 as submitted.

Per bend sinister gules and sable, in bend two boar's skulls respectant argent

Submission History: Previous device submission, 'Gyronni arrondi gules and argent, a boar skull caboshed vert', was returned for conflict with Garth the Lost: Argent, a boar's head caboshed vert, armed gules, langued purpure, registered in June of 1982 (via the West), in February 2017 from the Northshield Kingdom Letter. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=72674)

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-23 19:55:47
I am not at all sure we can register boar's skulls that have no teeth. In life, these would have required dentures to go with their tusks.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-10-24 13:56:39
Here is a lateral image of a boar's skull for comparison.

1: Image 1

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-10-30 15:49:25
I was only able to find one example of a non-human skull that has been registered with this orientation. It has teeth. I'm undecided about how much of a difference those teeth make.

Primus Cornelius Caprea - Sable, a natural ibex's skull facing dexter and a bordure argent. Registered 11/14 via Caid (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=45038)

1: Image 1

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-10-24 00:08:18
Name registered June 2017.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:52:14
We do not have any boar's skulls registered yet, and a quick precedent dive doesn't have any attempted either. The lack of teeth isn't the deal breaker to me here, instead it is the size of the tusks. They seem a bit outsized to my eye.

That said, no conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-26 21:02:33
Me, I'm perfectly happy to have an identifying characteristic like the tusks exaggerated.

Brenna Lowri o Ruthin at 2017-10-30 20:30:04
These look more like warthog skulls than boar skulls to me. I believe the length of the tusks add to that illusion.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-10-31 21:34:33
I agree. I immediately thought of warthogs, not boars. The tusks are too large in proportion to the rest of the skull and the whole skull is too elongated for a boar.

Iohannes Glenfidanus at 2017-11-01 18:35:45
Mistholme gives a representation of a period boar's head. I would expect the skull to follow similar structure and proportions. I think the current image is too elongated horizontally and should be taller vertically. I concur that the image should display teeth other than the tusks. That said, I am not opposed to the exaggerated tusks in this rendering. http://mistholme.com/dictionary/head-animals/

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-11-02 06:16:18
The exaggerated tusks in Mistholme are accompanied by the fleshy outline of the boar's head, not the simple skull. The exaggerated tusks on this skull especially make this visually confusing with the warthog. Here is a warthog skull to show what I mean along with Bruce's picture of a boar's head for comparison.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-11-02 21:49:25
IF this rendition is acceptable and IF the submitter is agreeable, I offer this possible rendition of the emblazon. I used the boar skull that was provided by Mira Fastova as a guide but I also exaggerated the tusks a little.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-11-03 10:34:36
These certainly look more like the skulls inside heraldic boar's heads.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-11-11 03:57:16
For conflict searching we must be mindful of but the ruling does not appear to bring up any conflicts.
[August 2017 LoAR, R-Drachenwald]
Gwen Corderay. Device. Sable, a stag's skull argent.
This device must be returned for multiple conflicts. There is a long-standing precedent that no difference is granted between a deer's head and its skull.
Therefore, the device conflicts with Roland the Restless, Sable, a stag's head cabossed argent and a base argent masoned sable, Cernach Locha Da Damh Sable, a stag's head cabossed argent, a bordure parted bordurewise embattled vert and argent, Stigr Arngeirsson, Sable, a stag's head couped affronty argent between three Bowen knots Or, and Michael Leopold, Sable, an elk's head cabossed argent and a bordure barry wavy azure and argent. In each case, there is one DC for removal of the secondary charge(s).

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-11-13 17:16:04
This is good to know


4: Kristyan Applegate -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2008, via Northshield.

Argent, a hippopotamus statant gules maintaining on its back a crow close to sinister sable

Submission History: Previous submission, '(Fieldless) A winged statant hippopotamus gules', was returned for a redraw from the January 2016 Northshield Kingdom Letter. Commenters indicated that the wings should be more eagle-like. (https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=60752)

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-23 19:57:07
Our crows are close by default. Propose:

Argent, a hippopotamus statant gules maintaining on its back a crow contourny sable

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-10-24 00:10:28
There is a step from period practice for the use of a hippopotamus. No conflict found.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-10-24 12:58:40
I find this hippo a bit too naturalistic and trian for my tastes, but I note that we've registered a matching emblazon in the past without comment (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=39837).

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-10-24 13:43:55
Can you please explain what you mean by naturalistic.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-10-24 13:50:58
It looks like a line drawing straight from a photograph, with a fairly 3D style.

SENA A.2.C.1 says:
"Animals and plants must be drawn in a stylized heraldic form, not in a naturalistic or photorealistic style. This does not mean that only heraldic forms of charges may be used, only that they must adhere to heraldic drawing style. Postures other than defined heraldic postures are not allowed. While depictions that are somewhat more naturalistic than the flat stylized depictions of heraldic charges will be registered, animals and plants may not be drawn in trian aspect (with perspective) ...."

But, as I mentioned, we've registered this rendition of a hippo before, so it likely doesn't cross that line.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-24 16:59:05
In this case I dissent from Maister Iago. My impression is of an adequately flat, heraldic rendition.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-10-31 21:41:49
I agree with Master Iago, especially the trian aspect. Having the hippo's head turned at an angle is not a heraldic posture at all. We draw animals' heads straight on, gardent, or in profile, not at odd angles.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-10-31 22:20:38
This version appears to be acceptable to Wreath for registration. That is what matters to the submitter.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-10-26 13:11:36
I once again question whether an animate charge atop another animate charge is something we have any period evidence for in heraldry. At least this is a clean depiction of both things, such that they are recognizable, but has anyone ever seen a period example of an animal standing on another animal (outside of the Bremen Town musicians)?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-26 19:37:44
Are there heraldic instances of non-humans riding horses or other steeds? I believe there are many such cases in illuminators' marginalia, and in heraldry many humans riding horses.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:32:40
No conflicts found. I am personally okay with the way the hippo is rendered. It shows the posture without a lot of frills.


5: Sigríðr Ornólfssdottir -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Language (Norse/Icelandic) most important.
Culture (Norse/Icelandic) most important.

Sigríðr: feminine Norse given name found on p 14 of GB

Ornólfssdottir: patronymic formed following pattern on p 17 of GB using masculing given name <Ornólfr> as found in Viking Answer Lady (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#o) combined with dottir. The terminal -r of <Ornólfr> is changed to -s and an -s is added to create the patronymic.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1123/2017-10-23/18-33-05_Sigridr_Name_Doc.jpg

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-10-24 03:28:46
The patronymic marker is -dóttir, hence Ornólfssdóttir.

Except for the missing accent, the name is correctly formed.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-10-26 19:29:00
No conflicts found.


Thus ends the October Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 2 Names, 3 Devices and 1 Badge. There are a total of 6 items submitted on this letter.

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