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Ansteorra ILoI dated 2017-09-12

I hope this letter finds you dry and safe

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:48:22
Looks OK.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:49:08
Whoops! Wrong place.

1: Adelaide de Beaumont -New Heraldic Title

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1981, via the West.

Pympernell Herald

No major changes.
Sound (pim-per-nel) most important.
Meaning (Pimpernel) most important.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-30/19-32-04_Pympernell_Herald_name_doc_1.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-30/19-32-05_Pympernell_Herald_name_doc_2.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-30/19-32-07_Pympernell_Herald_name_doc_3.jpg

Heraldic Title Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 07:50:26
First let us date the word and meaning to period:
Middle English Dictionary Entry s.n. pimpernel(e (n.)
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/
(a) One of several plants, variously decumbent or having stalks and having red, purplish-red, or white flowers; esp. the Great and Salad Burnets (Sanguisorba officinalis and Paterium sanguisorba), Burnet Saxifrage (Pimpinella saxifraga), and the Pimpernel (Anagallis arvensis);
c1450 Med.Bk.(1) (Med-L 136) 170/524: To knaw the lyue of a woundid man, wheþer he shall leue or dye, take þe rede pympernell and stamp it in a mortere & tamper it with watir or wyne and giffe it to þe woundid man to drynke.

The society registers the pimpernel as an heraldic charge.

An heraldic title may be formed from an existing heraldic charge name.
Heraldic Titles from the Middle Ages and Renaissance: Overview by Julia Smith
http://medievalscotland.org/jes/HeraldicTitles/index.shtml

No conflict found. Lovely choice on the name and congratulations.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-09-20 12:16:13
The url for the <pimpernel(e (n.)> entry is https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=byte&byte=142832930&egdisplay=compact&egs=14284046 2

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 12:06:27
Which is why I use the URL of the dictionary and the lookup header.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 13:16:45
Thank you. OED citations are in image #1, but I love the MED citation. Anagallis is toxic/poisonous, specifically hemolytic, so I imagine giving pimpernel tea to a wounded man would indeed "tell you" whether he shall leue or dye, with the strong betting being on the latter.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:05:20
Delightedly second Lord Magnus's compliments.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:49:33
Looks OK.


2: Adelaide de Beaumont -New Device Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1981, via the West.

Argent, three chevronels braced and in chief a unicorn passant azure

Old Item: Ermine, a unicorn courant between in pale a crescent Or and three chevronels braced vert., to be released.

FROM THE SUBMITTER:

Adelaide de Beaumont

This name was registered in June of 1981 (via the West).

The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1981 (via the West) and changed/released in October of 1982 (via the West):

Ermine, a unicorn courant between in pale a crescent Or and three chevronels braced vert.

The above was "released" in 1982, but per SOP still shows.

The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1982 (via the West):

Argent, a unicorn courant between three chevronels inverted braced and three chevronels braced azure.

The above are the current arms to be changed/released.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 15:08:25
I'm not sure what is meant by "SOP", but the Ermine version has in fact been released while remaining in the O&A, as all released items (and even misblazoned ones) do in perpetuity. The perhaps non-obvious but reliable way to determine release is to display the item with its armory descriptions shown: http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_complexb.cgi?w1=1&m1=name+pattern&p1=Adelaide+de+Beaumont&a=enabled. It has none, to avoid interference with standard conflict checks, whereas the Argent version is coded.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 08:15:27
This is the current registered device:
The following device associated with this name was registered in October of 1982 (via the West):
Argent, a unicorn courant between three chevronels inverted braced and three chevronels braced azure.

I gather this one is to be released. No conflict found.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-09-15 14:44:00
The form states that the current device is to be released, which would be the one that Magnus cites.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-24 21:28:34
Standard Operating Procedure. I do know why we keep all the released items in the O&A, but it's hard to have to relive your ignorance over and over.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-24 23:07:48
NOW I understand. Thank you.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:50:00
What I see is that these appear to be the new arms rather than the ones to be released.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:07:00
The last "above" in the headmatter refers to the preceding line there, not to the emblazon.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-05 17:52:40
I see no conflict. As an artist note, I would like more definition where the cheveroneles are braced together in the color version.


3: Adelaide de Beaumont -New Badge Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1981, via the West.

(Fieldless) Issuant from the bell of a straight trumpet Or, a pimpernel sprig vert flowered gules

Old Item: Argent, three chevronels inverted braced and three chevronels braced azure., to be released.

The following badge associated with this name was registered in October of 1982 (via the West):

Argent, three chevronels inverted braced and three chevronels braced azure.

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 08:22:43
Heralds are easily confused. It would be a very good idea to put off the badge release or make it a separate entry. That is an administrative action which can be done at any time. The submitter is not at the registration limit for armory.

No conflict found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-24 21:26:56
I would be happy to do whatever is needed to make it a separate entry, but I really want it gone. (Bad heraldic example, no biscuit!)

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-25 04:23:46
To get rid of a badge you fill out this letter and send it to Asterisk. It is an administrative action that goes in the LoI and is free.

Letter of Release For Armory
I, [Legal name], known in the SCA as [Society name] hereby release my registered armory "[Blazon of registered armory]". I understand that release of registration is permanent.
[Date] [Signature of [Legal name]]

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:50:30
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-05 18:31:19
I see no conflict


4: Artemis Moondragon -New Name & New Device

Azure, a dormant squirrel and on a chief embattled argent three roses azure

No changes.

Artemis - http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/database/lgpn.php

Permission to Conflict form signed by Tivar Moondragon

Name Comments:

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-09-12 09:17:25
Is she related to Tivar and attempting to "inherit" the byname, or is there documentation for it as a period name?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 11:42:40
She is related.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:28:09
What is needed is evidence that Artemis is a close legal relative to someone who has registered Moondragon rather than Permission to Conflict.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 12:31:32
I need to check, but I believe the PtC had legal names, which is why it wasn't posted. I'll check with Asterisk and see what we can do. likely just add the text with names redacted.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:38:02
The rule for this is SENA PN.1.B.2.g A name phrase from a registered name of an individual may also be registered by a close legal relative (such as parent, spouse, child, sibling, etc.). To do this, the submitter must demonstrate the relationship through legal documents or through attestation of relationship from the individual whose name is already registered.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 12:42:20
We have the attestation of relationship rolled into the PtC. I've sent a message to our internal to get things updated and get further docs if necessary.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-09-15 14:42:26
I can attest as Star Principal Herald that I have known Tivar Moondragon for over 20 years and that his daughter, Rosalind Moondragon is the mother of Artimes Moondragon who is wanting to register Moondragon as a surname. She is entitled to register it both as the granddaughter of Tivar Moondragon and the daughter of Rosalind Moondragon.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 13:29:21
Magnus has outlined the proper procedure; this must be demonstrated as grandfathered to make it lingua anglica and remove the temporal problems. IGI has some late-period English examples of Artemas as a masculine name and various spellings of Artemisia as a feminine name. The second question which may be a problem for the wider College is that Artemis is goddess of the moon, so the combination of Artemis and Moon might be considered too evocative.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:50:57
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-05 19:00:15
I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 10:57:34
Since we put postures after charges, make this: Azure, a squirrel dormant and on a chief embattled argent three roses azure.

Kryss Kostarev at 2017-09-15 10:57:59
Just an opinion but I think that is a particularly nicely drawn dormant squirrel. No problems identifying that one at all.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 13:31:12
The artist also resisted the temptation to line up the battlements and relate them to the charges on the chief. Definitely well drawn.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-25 14:11:52
I've no objection to artists doing precisely that, particularly when it lets longish charges (e.g., three fleur-de-lys) fit into the jags. But in this case, not doing so indeed works very very well.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 12:51:27
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:51:37
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-05 19:29:24
I see no conflicts


5: Judith de Saint Clare -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Josette de Chantecler(6/1976)

Per pale azure and sable, a sun in his glory Or and in chief three crescents argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No changes.

Judith: Judith is a name from France, dated in this spelling to 1015, 1173, and the late 16th century. Found in the DEMNES, sn. "Judith", S.L. Uckelman, ed The Dictionary of Medieval names from European Sources, Edition 2016, no. 4

de: SENA Appendix A allows the use of locative bynames in French with the article de

Saint Clare: Saint Clare is the vernacular form of a French locative byname dated to the 13th century. From the June 2016 LoAR [Vivienne de Saint Clare, 06/2016 LoAR, A - Drachenwald] "Negre's Toponymie generale de la France, s.n. Saint Clair gives the 13th century Latinized forms villa de Sancto Claro (1287) and sancti Clarus (1275). The form de Sancto Claro is found in 13th century England, also describing a town in Normandy. Therefore, the vernacular French form... is likely de Saint Clare"

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=AdAYRLukKUcC&pg=PA1397&lpg=PA1397&dq=Negre%27s+Toponymie+g%C3%A 9n%C3%A9rale+de+la+France&source=bl&ots=fjluERh7Nu&sig=vXW_6DJ484vHUWmNOe7TWArNvt0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0 ahUKEwjk5v-3kYvVAhWDkJQKHdMACSkQ6AEIUDAI#v=onepage&q&f=true

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-29/19-35-52_Judith_de_Saint_Clare_name_doc_2.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-29/19-35-54_Judith_de_Saint_Clare_name_doc_3.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-29/19-35-55_Judith_de_Saint_Clare_name_doc_4.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-29/19-35-57_Judith_de_Saint_Clare_name_doc_5.jpg
#5 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-08-29/19-35-58_Judith_de_Saint_Clare_name_doc_6.jpg

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 12:03:38
No conflict found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 14:14:29
"Therefore, the vernacular French form... is likely de Saint Clare"

Except it is absolutely not. He appears in the Ordinary of saints in 1263 as Clarus, and I find vernacular forms Saint Cler early (13th-14th c.) and Saint Clair in late period. The Église Saint-Clair in Réguiny, la chapelle St. Clair in La Cathédrale de Nantes, where Clarus was the first bishop, etc. If she wants a French vernacular spelling, it is Saint Cler/Clair depending on her period. Even for the common word, I can support clair, claire, cler, clere, cliere, and cleire from the DMF, but not clare (which looks English to me). The E forms (cler, clere) hugely predominate until about 1450 when the shift to clair gets traction.

Judith de Saint Clare is a plausible English name, but if she wants to be French, I believe Judith de Saint Clair is the better spelling. http://www.histoireetspiritualite.com/religions-fois-philosophie/christianisme/saints-bienheureux/C/ saint-cler.html

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 14:18:49
The problem with buying Saint Clare as even a maybe French form is that the terminal E in Clare is generally a feminine marker, while Saint is the masculine form. A Sainte Clare would not shock me for one of the many female saints Clare/Clara, though I would still expect Sainte Claire as a more likely French spelling. Note neither Saint Cler nor Saint Clair bears the terminal E.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:09:53
So the submission is registerable but its documentation is inaccurate.

Drusticc inigena Eddarrnonn at 2017-10-03 04:11:01
In light of this, the citation from the June 2016 LoAR [Vivienne de Saint Clare, 06/2016 LoAR, A - Drachenwald] is even more strange. Here is the full except:

Vivienne de Saint Clare. Name and device. Argent, two chevronels and on a chief gules three cinquefoils Or.

Submitted as Vivienne de Saint-Clair, the submitter requested authenticity for a 13th century Norman name.

The given name is a plausible late 13th century form of the attested Viviene.

Places named after saints were not hyphenated until late in our period. Negre's Toponymie générale de la France, s.n. Saint Clair gives the 13th century Latinized forms villa de Sancto Claro (1287) and sancti Clarus (1275). The form de Sancto Claro is found in 13th century England, also describing a town in Normandy. Therefore, the vernacular French form appropriate for the 13th century is likely de Saint Clare. We have changed the byname to this form to try to meet the submitter's request for an authentic 13th century name.

The submitted form of the name is also registerable. If the submitter prefers it, she can submit a request for reconsideration.

Nice device!

--------------------End of Excerpt

I'm not sure what to make of this.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:52:02
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 15:27:45
Docs check and no conflicts found

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 12:45:27
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:52:25
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 16:52:56
I see no conflict. However, as an artist not, I think the alternation wavy rays are too small.


6: Krum Kolomna -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Kiara nic Ailin(6/1993)

Krum: Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Period Russian Names.

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paul/kp.html lists 807 as year

Kolomna: Locative bynames in Medieval Russia

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/toprus.html lists 1522 as year

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 11:32:57
I suspect Krum is 9th century Bulgarian but the online Moroshkin is acting up.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-12 18:32:10
Moroshkin p. 106 sn. Крумъ is for the Bulgar Khan.
(https://archive.org/stream/slavianskimenos00morogoog#page/n218/mode/1up)
And wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krum

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 23:15:41
This name has problems doesn't it?

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-15 18:08:25
I am hoping that a forthcoming LoAR cover letter will clarify how Wickenden is to be used. But I would tentatively* suggest that since Wickenden doesn't mention that Krum is a Bulgar, the submitter should be given the benefit of the doubt that it is a Russian name, and since Wickenden only mentions the earliest instance of a name, it's hard to tell if it's a unique name or if there are other examples out there. Again, the college tends towards giving the benefit of the doubt. Especially since the submitter has not made any authenticity requests.

*While hoping the LoAR cover letter comes out soon, otherwise this is just hearsay from a random herald!

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-16 00:48:41
This ruling seems to demand this submission be returned. I only hope the upcoming Cover Letter fixes this. Both of us know how to use Paul's reference but many others do not. (I took his class at KWHS when the 3rd edition was released.) We now have most of his sources online and several Pelicans have quoted from them. What is a herald or a good Russian to do?

[January 2013 LoAR, A-Middle] Kasha Alekseeva.
The name was documented from Paul Wickenden of Thanet's "Dictionary of Period Russian Names." It dates Kasha to 670 and Alekseeva to 1470, a span of 800 years. This combination would not be registerable, as SENA PN2C2a requires that a name mixing name phrases wihin a single regional naming pool be dated to within 500 years of one another.
One weakness of this source is that only the first citation of any name element is dated. Thus, it is not clear how long the name Kasha remained in use as a feminine name. However, the identical masculine name is dated to late period, so we are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that the name continued in use long enough to be compatible with the byname and register the name as submitted.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-18 23:12:30
I read the January 2013 ruling the other way -- the submission should be sent up.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-23 18:10:38
And it's out! The July 2017 LoAR cover letter says:
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/07/17-07cl.html#3
"... where the submitter has not requested authenticity, names found in the [ie. Wickenden's] Dictionary will be treated as Russian, regardless of their source."

and:
"...the Dictionary gives only the earliest dated instance of a particular name under the heading for that name.... Because only the earliest date is given for most names, we generally give submitters the benefit of the doubt that name elements found in the Dictionary are temporally compatible."

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 14:39:40
My problem with the name (and hurrah for a little clarification on Wickenden) is the locative. Paul's article basically says, "This stuff gets really weird, so you really should just use the things I found, as I found them." Kolomna is the unaltered name of the city, but Paul's example shows it prepended, Kolomna Ivan, like a nickname, "Cleveland Charlie." The other examples are altered to look like a descriptive and/or appear to be patronymic. This is a unique example, and I'm not sure we have any rationale for not using it the way it appears in the example, BEFORE the given name. I would submit this as Kolomna Krum.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 16:43:55
I see no conflict


7: Nicaize Maupetit -New Name & New Device

Per saltire sable and azure, in an orle a labyrinth argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Nicaize: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_names_feminine_given.html#n 1454-1535

Maupetit: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/lallaing/lallaing_names_bynames.html#m

1534-1548

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-09-12 14:19:01
Docs chek out. The article title is Names from Lallaing 1384 - 1600 by Domhnall na Moicheirghe (Donald Campbell)

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 20:46:57
Maupetit is kind of a weird one. The more correct form is Aupetit, itself a slang version of petit-fils 'grandson/heir' (submitted form is m'aupetit, 'my grandson/heir'). Aupetit is a not uncommon surviving family name; Maupetit I believe is uncommon (Paupetit is also found). Depending on the period the submitter is after, the byname may be inappropriate for a feminine name. The term usually applies to inheritance of a second generation through either a son or a daughter (where presumably the daughter was ineligible to inherit but her male heirs were), so I'm not sure there really is a feminine form.

The Lallaing article is filled with ekenames and familial relationships masquerading as bynames. This could well have been a record like Jehan Beaucamp et Robert Maupetit meaning 'John Beaucamp and Robert his heir'. Does the submitting herald know why she picked this particular name?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:52:52
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 17:06:25
Links work. I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 11:07:28
Putting the primary charge first gives: Per saltire sable and azure, a labyrinth within an orle argent.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 11:30:01
Suggested blazon: Per saltire azure and sable, a labyrinth and an orle argent.
No conflict found.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 12:42:54
Whoops, yep. Ignore my above suggestion - I used the field from the blazon and forgot to make sure it matched the emblazon.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:53:27
Agree with Magnus' blazon tweak. No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 17:10:58
I see no conflicts


8: Nicaize Maupetit -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A lotus flower affronty azure charged with a labyrinth argent

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:31:55
Suggested blazon: (Fieldless) On a lotus blossom affronty azure, a labyrinth argent.

The labyrinth appears to be the central structure of the flower seeded argent.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 15:32:27
Concur. For me, the same charge in submitter's proposed device, https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4732&dsn=79255#7 in this letter, is just clear enough. On this badge, from appropriate viewing distance the most I can see is an unusually boring target, not a labyrinth.

Making this labyrinth less complex, inserting at lest two half-circle barriers like the ones visible at greater distance on the device, or both, would clarify its nature for heraldic use.

As it is, I regretfully recommend return for unidentifiability of the tertiary charge.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-15 15:39:15
Submitter authorized a redraw based on the concerns with the labyrinth.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-15 16:11:42
I have no problems with that labyrinth, but with that blue, the internal detailing of the lotus pretty well disappears for me. Can we get yet another version with visible detailing for the flower?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-15 16:39:35
You are welcome to break out the markers. This is the standard blue I use with everything, and I just left the office for the week. Getting married next week, so this is likely my last contribution for a week or two.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-15 17:23:45
Well, we can hope for someone else coping; this is another area where I'm useless.

Felicitations on the marriage!

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-18 09:58:15
Ran our decision meeting last night and needed to tweak something else - and if I didn't do it today, I wouldn't remember, so here's a slightly lighter blue? I'm not comfortable enough with values to fiddle too much with them, but this appears, at least on my screen, to allow for the black to be better seen.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:54:05
Agree that the labyrinth is too finely divided here, and that the one used on the device should be acceptable here. Magnus' blazon is good.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 16:49:39
I see no conflict.


9: Phoebe Saint Michael -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1999, via Ansteorra.

Per pale azure and vert, a rabbit dormant in chief argent three mullets of four greater and four lesser points gules

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 11:23:46
Reblazon: Per pale azure and vert, a rabbit dormant contourny and on a chief argent three compass stars gules.

There is a step from period practice for the compass stars, but it appears to be the only one.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 11:39:10
This cannot be a New Device as the submitter already has a device. My guess is it would be a Change of Device. Does the submitter wish to retain the old device as a badge or release it?
Phoebe Saint Michael The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 1992 (via Ansteorra):
Argent estencely, a cat couchant sable.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 11:45:08
She wishes to retain her old device as a badge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 15:34:39
So long as I've made the count I may as well share it:

azure + vert + rabbit + chief + argent + compass stars + gules = 7. No problem.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 12:29:54
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:54:31
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 17:16:23
I see no conflicts


10: Ragna Jósepsdatter -New Name & New Device

Quarterly gules and vert, overall a pine tree Or

Ragna: Ragna/Olufsdatter Prinsesse af Skåne/

Female b 1142 d 1180

The Church of jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, "Pedigree Resource

File," database, FamilySearch

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:38RB-WCG : accesses 2017-06-13, entry for Ragna/Olufsdatter Prinsesse af Skåne/

Jósepsdatter: Geirr Bassi Haraldsson, The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica I. Olney, MD: Markland Medieval Militia. 1977 p12 s.n. Jósep, Genitive; Jóseps

This shows that between 1000 and 1200 that a woman could have the name Ragna Jósepdatter, being that both the female name Ragna and the male name Jósep were in use

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-12 18:51:47
Lind col. 837 sn. Ragna
Ragna, 1309 Norway
(Looking at the source, Diplomatarium Norvegicum it's a Latin-language record http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst_2016.prl?b=124&s=n&str=Ragna)

Lind col. 654 sn. Iósepr
Ellingr Ioseps s., and Siugurdr Ioseps s., 1322
(Diplomatarium Norvegicum spells these as "Ellingr Joseps son" and "Siugurdr Joseps son" http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst_2016.prl?b=1270&s=n&str=Joseps%)

So the next part is to show -datter used in 14th c. Norwegian names:
Dyry Haagensdatter, Bergitte Olsdatter, og Angiær Colbiørnsdatter, 1361 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst_2016.prl?b=13540&s=n&str=%datter)
Gyrey hakono datter, Biergiat Olauer dather och Angierd Koldbiøren datter, 1362 (http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst_2016.prl?b=16956&s=n&str=%datter)

So Ragna Josepsdatter would be a fine 14th c. Norse name.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-09-26 15:39:43
Concur with ffride. Christian names such as Joseph were adopted pretty late in Scandinavia. Fourteenth c. seems about right.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:54:55
Given name doc checks out. The rest looks reasonable, thanks to ffride.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 17:22:50
I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:07:50
Suggested blazon: Quarterly gules and vert, a pine tree Or.

No conflict found. It looks like this heraldic real estate once belonged to Claudas from Fabulous Heraldry.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 15:48:12
[Rabbit-trail warning!]

Well, the lot next door: http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1993/08/lar.html s.n. Dolores Isabella Cisneros de los Gitanos [actually s.n. Gwendolyn MacAuslane of Loch Lomond; see rest of this subthread] shows Azure, a pine Or. Hurray for the Modest Proposal!

And so nobody else has to look it up: Apparently <Claudas> refers to the king in various period Arthurian tales.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 23:20:46
You may wish to read that LoAR again more carefully.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-13 16:56:54
Huh? The text I'm relying on is "This conflicts with Claudas (Fabulous Heraldry, p.57): Azure, a pine Or." What do you see that I don't?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-13 17:03:35
For whatever reason, the name didn't get bolded, and the entry you're reading is under <Gwendolyn MacAuslane of Loch Lomond>. Device. Quarterly azure and vert, a pine tree Or., which conflicted with the Claudas bit cited.

With just a change of the field, doesn't this conflict with Claudas as well?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 17:50:40
That is from 1993. Claudas isn't in the O&A, so we don't protect that armory anymore. The submitter has found a forgotten bit of heraldic real estate that is clear.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-13 17:52:33
Ah! It's my "s.n." that Lord Magnus correctly disputes.

As for the conflict, King Claudas would have to be worth entering in the O&A with "Important non-SCA arms". I doubt he is. For one thing, I could find no mention of his arms on the Net.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 12:09:45
'Overall' isn't required here since the tree is the primary charge.

Quarterly gules and vert, a pine tree couped Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:55:19
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-11 17:35:34
I see no conflict.

Couped needs to be specified in the blazon.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-10-12 13:50:17
And has been, by Maister Iago above.


11: Rebekka Crup -New Name & New Device

Argent, a swallow volant to sinister azure

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Spelling most important.

Rebekka - (Willima Browne-Spouse), Marriage Oct 1605; Suffolk, England; Batch M 06223-2

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AWilliam~%20%2Bsurna me%3ABrown~%20%2Bmarriage_place%3A%22Suffolk%2C%20England%22~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1605-1605~

Thomas <Crup>, male, 20 jan 1616, Burial; Kent, England, batch

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AThomas~%20%2Bdeath_ place%3A%22Kent%2C%20England%22~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1616-1616~%20%2Bbatch_number%3A%22B%2003939-4%22

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-09-12 14:15:28
Crup- Batch number B03939-4.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:55:51
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:33:30
Links work. I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 12:34:31
I'm concerned that this bird is in trian aspect.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:44:25
This is a swallow volant from Mistholme.

1: Image 1

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-09-12 12:46:15
awesome, thanks!

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 08:15:46
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:56:09
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:39:56
I see no conflict


12: Sigvarðr SkarfR -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Sigvarðr - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse name. Studia Marklandica I. Olney, MD: Markland Medieval Militia. 1977. p 14 s.n. Sigvarðr

Academy of St Gabriel Report #1783 lists <Sigvarðr> as old Norse and appropriate for the 8th to 10th centuries

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1783.txt

SkarfR - Academy of St Gabriel Report #2811 lists <Otkell Skarfs son Hallkels Sonar> in the late 10th Century Iceland

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2811+0

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-15 18:16:43
Actually, the part of the St. Gabriel report the submitter wants to quote is:
"Additionally, <skarfr> was incuse in 10th c. Iceland as a byname, probably meaning "cormorant", a type of water bird [3]."
[3] Lind, E.H., _Norsk-Isla"ndska Personbinamn fra*n Medeltiden_ (Uppsala: 1920-21). S.vv. <Bla/fo/tr>, <Bla/-Ka/ri>, <Bla/kinn>, <Bla/kollr>, <Bla/nesa>, <Bla/siða>, <Bla/skeggr>, <Bla/to,nn>, <Hlaðho,nd>, <O,rvo,nd>.

In the July 2016 LoAR sn. StigR Arngeirsson
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/07/16-07lar.html#241)
"Submitted as StigR Arngeirrsson, the name was changed in kingdom to Stigr Arngeirsson to use a standard transliteration of the given name and to correct the genitive (possessive) form of the byname. However, we allow the registration of the runic forms, so we have restored the given name to the submitted form."

So if the submitter wants SkarfR, he can have it, it seems.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-09-26 15:40:37
He can have <skarfr>, with the nominative ending lowercased. We don't register runic spellings, and that's what the capitalized R is being used for.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-26 16:38:15
Except that since the April 2016 LoAR, we apparently do!

sn. UlfR bloðfotr Falgeirsson http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/04/16-04lar.html#63

"The question was raised whether the given name should be changed to the standard form Ulfr. The Letter of Intent cited the following precedent:

On the other hand, runic spellings, such as those recorded in Lena Peterson's Nordiskt runnamslexikon, preserve pronunciations that were never recorded in the Latin alphabet. This is especially true for forms from Old East Norse, which is poorly represented in Latin alphabet documents compared to Old West Norse. Therefore, we will register forms of runic names that have been transcribed following a standard scholarly system, such as the header forms in Lena Peterson's work. We will not, however, accept "invented" transcriptions based on a submitter's proposal of how to transcribe runic names. [December 2010 Cover Letter]

Appendix D of SENA confirms that header forms from Nordiskt runnamslexikon are registerable. Therefore, we have not changed the given name."

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-26 16:43:34
Actually, we have done so for several years, so we have both UlfR and StigR in the O&A now, and we no longer insist on lowercasing Old Norse. Respectively:

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/12/10-12cl.html, "From Pelican: Transliteration and Old Norse"

runic spellings, such as those recorded in Lena Peterson's Nordiskt runnamslexikon, preserve pronunciations that were never recorded in the Latin alphabet. This is especially true for forms from Old East Norse, which is poorly represented in Latin alphabet documents compared to Old West Norse. Therefore, we will register forms of runic names that have been transcribed following a standard scholarly system, such as the header forms in Lena Peterson's work.
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/04/12-04cl.html, "From Pelican: Norse Capitalization"
Given this evidence, we are removing the requirement that descriptive bynames in Old Norse be registered only in lowercase. Descriptive bynames will be registered either in uppercase or in lowercase. This matches our usage in other languages, where we render most name elements in uppercase, although many documents are written only in lowercase.
So the name is registerable as submitted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:56:42
Docs check out, though I don't see any support here for the use of the terminal capital R.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:18:28
The second St. Gabriel report cited includes the statement, "In the early 10th c. and earlier, the runic spelling would have been <skarfR blahont>, ..."

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:44:44
Links work. I see no conflict.


13: Skeggi berbeinn Sebbason inn sterki -New Name & New Device

Per saltire sable and gules, a saltire voided Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Skeggi - "beard". Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica i. Olney, MD. Markland Medieval Militia, 1977; p 214 Lena Peterson, Nordesktrunnamnslexicokon, (Dictionsry of names from Old Norse Runic Inscriptions). Sprak-och folkminnes-institutet (Institute for Dialectology, Onomastics and Folklore Research). https://aasikter.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/runlexikon.prf. Accessed 08/14/2017 p 178

berbeinn - "bare-leg". Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica i. Olney, MD. Markland Medieval Militia, 1977; p 20

Sebbason - "son of Sebbi". Cleasby, Richard and Guobrandr Vigfussion, An Icelandic-English Dictionary 2nd ed. Oxford:Clarendon. 1957; xxxiv s.v. "Pet names" and P 66 s.v. bjorn

inn sterki - "strong, powerful". Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica i. Olney, MD. Markland Medieval Militia, 1977; p 28

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-12 19:01:17
Does the submitter indicate if he wants to be the son of "Sebbi the strong", or if he wants to be "Skeggi bare-leg the strong, son of Sebbi"?

Annais de Montgomerie at 2017-09-18 14:18:43
Submitter wishes to be son of Sebbi the strong.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-18 21:59:20
In which case I'd expect to see "Skeggi berbeinn Sebbason ins sterka."
(To explain, "inn sterki" goes into the genitive case to match Sebbi -> genitive Sebba. So the name literally is "Skeggi bare-leg Sebbi's son the strong's" or, in more readable English "<Skeggi bare-leg>, <Sebbi the strong>'s son"

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-18 21:59:31
.)

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-09-19 01:58:18
Many thanks. I was the name consult on this submission, and... Norse grammar past the basics is definitely not my strong suit. He has no objection to the change in spelling to clarify this.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-19 02:28:36
Showing once again that word-for-word translation, even into a related language, doesn't necessarily work.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-09-26 15:41:19
Concur with ffride.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:51:08
I see no conflicts.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 18:27:54
All of the saltires voided registered are on a single tincture field. This is the first submitted on a divided field. This may cause thin line heraldry problems of contrast.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-13 18:37:25
I had a similar thought and went hunting for voided shapes in the OSCAR era. I immediately found one, Drákon Athenadôrou's registered device at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69879, Jan 2017, even narrower. "Thin-line" has been described as like a single pen-stroke. I don't think the stripes here quite meet that standard to be returned.

(Not that I, too, wouldn't prefer them a bit thicker, but that's art criticism, irrelevant to registerability.)

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-21 11:52:24
Closest found were:
Andrew Blake of Edinburgh
The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 2013 (via the East):
Per saltire sable and gules, a saltire within a bordure Or.
Jamaica
The following badge associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via Laurel):
Per saltire vert and sable, a saltire Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:57:09
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:52:52
I see no conflict


14: Terrence ad te Syke -New Name & New Device

Argent, two chevronels sable between two fountains and a dolphin naiant azure

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.
Language most important.

Terrence - (1552)names found in Anglicized Irish Documents by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien)

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml

Chose "ad te" from Latin "of the" but would accept "atte", if necessary as a substitution.

Sykes - Reaney and Wilson, pg 437, Variants found are Sike and Siche d. 1327

Name Comments:

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-09-12 09:27:18
You can't add random prepositions to random surnames. It turns out that Sykes is the sort of generic topographic element that took "at the", but this is not at all clear from that summary.

R&W s.n. Sykes dates atte Siche 1327 and del Sikes 1309 (among others), and says it refers to residence near a small shallow stream or streams.

However, ad te does NOT mean "at the" in Latin. It means "to you", and it just does not work in a locative byname.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 16:06:57
So (with notification to submitter) we can send up <Terrence atte Syke>.

I wouldn't think it's authentic, since <atte> is Middle English and 1552 isn't, quite, but I suppose it's registerable even if we allow only 300 years between them as different languages.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-09-12 19:06:59
MED sv. sī̆che has:
(https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=byte&byte=179528822&egdisplay=open&egs=179540467)
Joh. atte Syche. 1384
But also has in the non-surname section:
"Riuus: syke." a1425
"Do scope þis water & turn þe borne; Sykes [F ruissiax] do ȝe graue..Þe water þer-inne men schal scoupe." a1450
"Myth I ryde be sompe and syke And be ryche and lordlyke, Certys þanne schulde I be fryke." a1450

So "atte Syke" seems plausible?

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-09-13 08:13:51
Since i/y switches are a dime a dozen in English, the R&W citations are probably enough to get atte Syke.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-25 21:03:47
Note ALL examples from Mari's article are spelled Terence, with ONE R. As it seems to be an anglicization of Tirlach, with one R, I don't see why another one would be a good idea. I find a Tyrence at IGI (b. 1587, C batch), again one R. Withycombe, s.n. Terence, gives the name from Latin Terentius, one R. Let's send up Terence atte Syke.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:22:52
So, given submitter apparently permits all adjustments, we should send up <Terence atte Syke>.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:57:28
Agree that "atte Syke" should be registerable.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 08:58:11
Link works. I see no conflict

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 11:17:42
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:57:54
No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-29 14:27:36
http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#default says naiant is default for our dolphins, but our Sovereigns regularly ignore that.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 09:01:40
I see no conflicts


15: Terrence ad te Syke -New Alternate Name

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Hugh de Man

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.

Hugh - English masculine given, Wythecombe, pg 150, Hugh

https://books.google.com/books?id=mKrfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=wythecombe,+hugh&source=bl&ots= zBMOD2zVrR&sig=iQE3AEE3iQETL-H4PR2EysjD_3c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8uZvnj5HWAhWh6oMKHawWDIwQ6AEIKjAA #v=onepage&q=wythecombe%2C%20hugh&f=false

de - https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/bynames/

Man - "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5JC-M29 : 30 December 2014, Hugh Man, 18 Dec 1570); citing WIDECOMBE IN THE MOOR,DEVON,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 0262977 IT 1.

Alternate Name Comments:

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-09-12 09:33:02
Again, you can't just add random prepositions to random surnames. The Latin preposition de was used with placenames to create locative bynames, so to get de Man, you'd need to find evidence for Man as the name of a place.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-12 12:23:55
In this case I guess you can. SENA allows English and Dutch to mix.

15th Century Dutch Names by Aryanhwy merch Catmael
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/dutch/dutch15surnames.html
de Man 1478 'the man, the husband'

Unless de can now count for difference under SENA this would conflict with:
Hugh Mann registered in January of 2002 (via Atlantia).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 16:19:49
Under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN3C1, "Changes to Two Syllables", <de> counts. But we don't have two syllables difference here. Under PN3C2, "Substantial Change to One Syllable", it's explicitly discounted.

So concur, conflict with <Hugh Mann>.

Fortunately!--since we thus don't have to advise on Obtrusive Modernity. (Given how often I've missed what seems to have been screamingly obvious to others, I should be explicit: The admiring phrase from African American English, "You da man!")

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:58:20
Period or not, grammatically correct or not, obvious joke names really annoy me.


16: Walter Thomas Longstride -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of September 05, 2017 as submitted.

Gules, a lion rampant and on a chief embattled Or two arrows inverted in saltire gules

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-09-12 12:34:29
'Rampant' is our default for lions, so: Gules, a lion and on a chief embattled Or two arrows inverted in saltire gules.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 11:12:10
Dominic Beniamin registered in April of 2016 (via Trimaris):
Gules, a lion rampant gardant and on a chief embattled Or two Maltese crosses sable.

I believe there is a DC for tincture and one for arrangement of tertiary group. All others clear of this submission.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-13 17:01:51
And surely one for type.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 10:58:53
No conflicts found. Agree with Iago's reblazon.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 09:10:39
I see no conflict


17: Wentiliana le Chandeler -New Name & New Device

Per pall inverted gules argent and sable, two rabbits rampant respectant counterchanged and in base a sheaf of three arrows argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language most important.
Culture (Chandler family: 1200-1300's Norman English) most important.
Meaning most important.

Wentiliana - Wentiliana de Keynes, 1325-1375, effigy in St Mary the Virgin Church, Dodford, England; documented in "Calendar of the Patent Rolls", Richard II AD 1385-1389, pages 105 & 106. Also, "The battle Abbey Roll: with some Account of Norman Lineages," Volume 2, page 170. Additional resources included: Academy of St Gabriel; UK National Archives-Catalogue, reference: C 143/8/15, DCH/C/850, C 135/192/3; "The Index Library, Abstracts for Gloucestershire, Part IV, page 128.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015009141402;view=1up;seq=5

https://archive.org/stream/battleabbeyrollw02battuoft#page/170/mode/2up

le Chandeler - The Chandeler Family Association website with genetic lineages, multiple cited sources and spellings. "Calendar of Letter-Books of the city of London, A: 1275-1298" pages 126, 146, & 176. UK National Archives-Catalogue: Special Collections, reference: SC 8/100/4974, SC 8/39/1909, SC 8/302/15097, and Wiltshire & Swindon History Centre, reference: 1720/53. Oxford, "A Dictionary of English Surnames" page 90. Academy of St Gabriel

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000194055

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13526

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 09:32:59
The documentation needs a better summary and copies of the book. Hopefully the names in this source are not normalized for spelling.

Wentiliana: Calendar of the Patent Rolls Preserved in the Public Record Office.
Richard II A.D. 1385-1389.
London: Her Majesty's Stationary Office, 1900.
Page 105: Dated to 1386. "Wentiliana, his sister, daughter of the said John de Keynes, his heir"

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-26 18:27:22
More R&W to the rescue. R&W, s.n. Wantling, has Wentiliana dated to 1208. That is undoubtedly Latinized, and the later (1411) citation of Wenthelen is probably closer to the vernacular form. R&W specify that the name is an anglicization of Welsh Gwellian. But both pieces can be no photocopy.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 09:44:10
le Chandeler: Reaney & Wilson s.n. Chandler has William le Chandeler dated 1285.

Much simpler no photocopy source for the byname.
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 11:00:07
Docs check out.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 09:27:38
I see no conflict.

The third link provided (https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000194055), I couldn't find any evidence of le Chandler

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 16:23:41
We generally use combattant for rampant respectant, so:

Per pall inverted gules argent and sable, two rabbits combattant counterchanged and in base a sheaf of three arrows argent [But see below for why to prefer the submitted blazon]

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-09-12 16:25:11
Checking the O&A, I see this is a strong tendency, not a rule. So if submitter actually cares about that part of the blazon ...

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-09-26 18:30:56
It's a choice. A lot of people prefer respectant (I certainly would). That's not actually how bunnies fight, so respectant is better here.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 10:33:46
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 11:00:26
No conflicts found.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 09:29:39
I see no conflict


18: Wentiliana le Chandeler -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A rabbit rampant gules maintaining an arrow argent

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-09-13 08:56:33
Only item close was this and it is clear by Fieldless DC and change to maintained charge.
Liam Makfersan August of 2016 (via Caid):
(Fieldless) A rabbit rampant gules maintaining a lantern Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-09-29 11:00:50
Found nothing closer than Liam's badge.

Thora Grimudottir at 2017-10-12 09:31:51
I see no conflict.



OSCAR counts 10 Names, 1 Alternate Name, 1 Heraldic Title, 10 Devices, 1 Device Change, 2 Badges and 1 Badge Change. There are a total of 26 items submitted on this letter.

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