SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
LoIs
KLoIs
SENA
Prec
AH
Track
Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Ansteorra ILoI dated 2017-08-07

Greetings. Hope this letter finds you cool from the heat

1: Alister Rogerson -New Name & New Device

Argent, a saltire gules surmounted by a card-pique and bordure sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Meaning (Son of Roger) most important.

Herald: Brian O'hUilliam

Alister - a Scottish masculine given name foud as Alister de Glengerry, dated to 1531 in the "Records of the Patliaments of Scotland to 1707"

http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1531/10

Rogerson - cited in Black's "The Surnames of Scotland" under the heading of "Rodgerson" on page 697. Donald Rogerson in 1364; William Rogerson in 1424

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 17:03:15
No conflict found.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-07 07:24:14
Additional doc for Alister: SCA Precendents: François la Flamme 2004.03. " The submitted form of this name was Scots, a language closely related to English. (The form Alastair, used by Kingdom, is a Gaelic rather than Scots form.) All information found by the College showed that forms similar to Alastar only appeared in Scots in the second half of the 16th C. Dated Scots forms of this name that were found by the College include Allester, 1581 (Black s.n. MacEwan), Alester Modrell, 1596 (Black s.n. Motherwell), and Alister McWilliam McPhadrik, 1579 (Black s.n. MacKay). Additionally, Effric Neyn Kenȝocht Mcherrald found examples of this name in her research: 16th century (Inverness Records): Allister Dow in Abertarff 1562, Allister Roy Mcken3ie 1562. http://heraldry.sca.org/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/ScottishNonGaelic.html

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-08 05:49:56
Correction for Rogerson: William Rogerson is 1479 and 1424 was John Rogerson.
I don't have Black anymore but Hathitrust has a searchable version online at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011274175;view=1up;seq=27

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-08 10:40:53
Thanks. I must have read the wrong line when I typed the docs. I used the same version as linked.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-08 17:50:42
It happens at one time or another. No one is immune. :)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:18:04
Given name doc looks OK.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 17:23:39
The first image below from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=49622 for Miro di Marco was returned with the explanation at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/04/15-04lar.html#195, "Documentation provided by the commenters showed consistently these charges with straight stems, not the formy foot seen here."

Thereafter were registered without adverse comment the second, third, and fourth images below, respectively from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=52376 for Randall Blackwolf, https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=60648 for Ruslan Igorevich Voronov, and https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=70807 for Gaius Plinius Iustinianus. However, for both the latter reference was made in the LoIs to the Miro decision, and that for Ruslan adduced the rendition at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/card-pique/, fifth image below.

I believe that unlike those, this emblazon is too close to Miro's to be arguably straight-stemmed.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-06 17:31:52
Boo. As the artist on these, I'll dig around for a more friendly pique.

What's funny is that I picked the wider stem because it reached (barely) the satire.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 17:42:49
This looks like a modern depiction rather than the period card-pique in Image #5. Use Baron Bruce's image and the problem is gone.

No conflict found.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-10 14:57:53
updated art for consideration

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-10 18:19:57
Very nice. That should chase away the Miro di Marco ruling.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:18:42
Not entirely sure what the problem is with this card-pique. Is it the width of the foot? In any case, no conflicts found.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-14 14:24:54
Yes, per precedent, the wide foot charge is not found in period and the more narrow stem must be used, apparently. Submitter is fine either way.


2: Alister Rogerson -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) A saltorel gules surmounted by a card-pique sable

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 17:25:14
See my illustrated comment on https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4641#1, submitter's proposed device in this same letter.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 21:06:32
I also concluded this will need to be redrawn in a period form.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-10 14:47:40
updated art for consideration.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:19:45
I guess this card-pique has the same problem as the one above. "Saltorel" is the diminutive of the ordinary. Those diminutives are only used when there are more than one on the device in question. What we have here is a saltire couped. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 15:04:39
We could call it that, too. But we have almost as many instances of "a saltorel" in the O&A--three of which are blazoned "couped"--as we do of the plural. If our Sovereigns haven't bothered to impose a consistency here, I don't see why we should.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-14 15:06:35
I thought similarly, but it does appear that in 2016 a device was changed at Laurel from "saltorel" to "saltire...couped"

<Roberto Martin Totorica>. Device. Per fess embattled sable and barry Or and sable, a saltire raguly couped Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 15:27:28
Hmmm. Going forward but not reblazoning the old, then. I've certainly no objection to

(Fieldless) A saltire couped gules surmounted by a card-pique sable

or vice versa with "surmounting".


3: Branán Mac Branáin -New Name & New Device

Argent, three ravens volant in annulo within an orle sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Irish Co Roscommon) most important.
Culture most important.
Meaning (Branan, son of Branan) most important.

Herald: Andreas von MeiBen

Branán - Gaelic masculine forename. Appears 3 times, all in the 12th Century, in "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Branán" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien, http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Branan.shtml)

Mac - Gaelic masculine patronymic marker: SENA Appendix A

Branáin - The genitive form of "Branán" from Index of Names in Irish Annals: Branán by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien, http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Branan.shtml)

NOTE: Previous name submission, Binn MacBranain, was returned from the Gleann Abhann ILoI dated 2014-02-13. While these were previously submitted through another kingdom, they are new to Ansteorra and Laurel.

https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingloi.php?kingdom=20&loi=2439

Name Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 20:14:33
The mac needs to be lower case. No conflict found.

This is a resubmission at kingdom level and will be new when it reaches Laurel.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-07 21:35:25
Can be, doesn't have to be. E.g., the most recent LoAR, http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/06/17-06lar.html#73, Aed Mac Eochagáin:

Although the standardized Gaelic form of the byname would be mac Eochagáin, capitalization in the Irish Annals is extremely variable. Therefore, we are leaving that portion of the name as submitted and not changing mac to lower case.
And it's nothing like the first time, either. We've well over 500 registered, in every decade since June 1984.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 23:27:06
Spelling in the Annals is also extremely variable. This could be very interesting.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 12:15:41
It appears that way in the Annals as a matter of fact:

M1159.13 Branán Mac Branáin, toisech Corco Achlann

'Branán Mac Branáin, chief of the people of Achlann'

And no, that's not a suggestion of conflict. Just a point of excessive temporal compatibility.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 12:50:14
I just chatted with the submitter. He said he submitted it that way because the supporting documentation showed it (as I posted above), but he doesn't have a preference. I don't know whether the capitalization is just an Annals of Ulster weirdness, or whether it's because the Mac Brennans are a sept (of Ó Briuin) and the byname was viewed as a whole piece. The submitter is pretty much in "just pass something" mode and isn't particular about the capitalization.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:20:43
The same whole name is found in the second reference and is dated as occurring c900-c1200.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 15:09:06
Gleann Abhann also returned a device and a badge with the name at kingdom. These would be resubmissions at any kingdom level but new to Laurel when something goes up.

No conflict found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 17:40:20
SfPP for the arrangement of the ravens, but it appears to be the only one.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:21:06
No conflicts found.


4: Cecily de Vere -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in May of 2015, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) An ermine spot azure and overall two sewing needles in saltire argent

Herald: Lord Dragos

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-07 10:03:39
No conflicts found.

Closest conflicts I found found were:

- Aliénor de Narbonne: (Fieldless) An ermine spot azure. DC for addition of needles and DC for Fieldless.

- Arnolda Kolfinna O'Comhraidhe of Inis Celtra: (Fieldless) A Wake knot azure surmounted by two needles in saltire argent. DC (at least) for change of spot to knot and DC for Fieldless.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 21:35:06
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:21:35
Nothing found closer than the items cited by Sable Crane.


5: Eleanor of Bonwicke -New Name & New Device

Or, a chief dancette gules, a garb of papyrus sable

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Client requests authenticity for 16th century English.

Herald: Gerold von Drachenbable

Eleanor - The given name Eleanor is mid-16th century English. It is documented in English Given Names from 16th and Early 17th C Marriage Records.

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/parishes/eleanor.html

Bonwicke - The surname of Bonwicke is permitted according to the Society's publication The Standards for Evaluation of names and Armory, Branch name allowance - section PN.1.B.f. The branch name of the barony of Bonwicke was registered in June, 1993.

http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Bonwicke%2c%20barony%20of

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-07 06:27:41
Docs check out. Bonwicke, Barony of- This branch-name was registered in June of 1993 (via Ansteorra).

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 21:58:35
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:22:06
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 15:04:47
Suggested blazon: "Or, a papyrus plant sable and a chief indented gules."

We have registered papyrus plants.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:04:06
Apparently just the once, for Cassandra la Schrevein, Apr 2008, making hers at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=5615 the unacknowledged defining instance. The wildly different stylizations there and here are partly explained by the silhouettes in the photograph of a dwarf variety, first image below, from http://www.emeraldgoddessgardens.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6. But not wholly; the thistle-like bulges below the fans here do not correspond to anything I'm finding in a Google Image search, not even among the art deco drawings.

Submitter (or her artist) should be asked for her model.

1: Image 1

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 11:54:31
On Cassandra's registration, Wreath stated "The papyrus plants are stylized but recognizable." I would make sure the current submitter did not use modern clip art for the plant. That will get you in the return box very fast.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-07 14:13:03
Modern clip-art that matches period style is not forbidden. I did do a Google Image search with the plant as the target and nothing showed.

The problem here could be stated as the plants being stylized and not recognizable.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 22:13:12
More examples of the plant.

http://www.africanplants.senckenberg.de/root/index.php?page_id=78&id=2727#

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:23:44
"Dancetty" describes a double-edged ordinary indented "in phase" along both edges. This chief is simply indented. Have nothing helpful re the rendering of the papyrus, but find no conflicts in any case. Would prefer to see the chief drawn a little less deep.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 15:07:08
Wherefore I assume you concur with Lord Magnus's blazon above:

Or, a papyrus plant sable and a chief indented gules

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 21:14:35
The escutcheon used here is not the standard one on the device forms.That has been grounds for return in the past.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 23:05:53
And will be again. No sense sending it on until that's corrected. Of course, getting a plausible plant at the same time would be good!

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 11:04:04
Good catch, thank you.


6: Konstantia Marininanou -Resub Device Change

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Azure, a duck naiant argent within a rosary and on a chief Or, three chiros azure

Old Item: Azure, a duck naiant argent within a rosary, a bordure Or, to be retained as a badge.

Herald: Lord Dragos

Submitter's name is on the 01-2017 LoAR

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69536

Submitter's original device is on the 01-2017 LoAR

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69535

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:57:59
Konstantia Marinianou registered in January of 2017 (via Ansteorra).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:09:42
Correcting spelling:

Azure, a duck naiant argent within a rosary and on a chief Or three chi-rhos azure

I believe the headmatter here is supposed to recite the blazon of the item being retained as a badge, viz., Azure, a duck naiant argent within a rosary, a bordure Or.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:24:16
No conflicts found.


7: Máni Álfsson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 14, 2016 as submitted.

Per saltire gules and sable, in fess two roundels argent

Herald: Rebekah Aleyn

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-06 14:22:09
<Zachariah MacDonald>

The following badge associated with this name was registered in November of 2015 (via Calontir): Gules, in fess two plates.

Only 1DC for changing half the field. This submission is in conflict.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-08-07 11:15:19
I agree this is a conflict. the changes to the field are only 1 DC.

Madoc Arundel (Garnet) at 2017-08-29 11:32:54
I would argue that they are one Marvel rather than one DC....

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:54:59
Máni Álfsson registered in January of 2017 (via Ansteorra).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:22:20
If resubmission is similar, submitter should be prepared to argue that the new version is not so reminiscent of Deadpool's mask, image below from https://twitter.com/hdmoviestheater (widely available elsewhere on the Net), as to be considered "Obtrusively Modern", http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3F3.

1: Image 1

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-07 20:14:11
I will agree that my first thought on seeing this was Deadpool. Took about a microsecond for my brain to go there.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-07 21:26:57
Not the first time the look has been tried. Otherwise I'm not sure I'd've known.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-09-07 20:50:05
Ditto. I immediately saw Deadpool.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 12:18:24
Totally with you. I saw it immediately. And I don't even like Deadpool.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:25:06
To those of us who haven't kept up very well with comics since the golden age, this looks like a nice, clean, attractive design, but the resemblance to Deadpool is pretty strong. Agree with the conflict call vs. Zachariah.


8: Margarita Vasquez de Santa Cruz -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2014, via Ansteorra.

Per chevron vert and sable, a chevron embattled between in cheif two coneys sejant respectant and in base two sewing needles in saltire argent

Herald: Alan Wemyss

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:51:26
Suggested blazon: "Per chevron vert and sable, a chevron embattled between two coneys sejant respectant and two sewing needles in saltire argent."

No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:25:41
Magnus' blazon looks good. No conflicts found.


9: Mathias Lyon of the Loch -New Name & New Device

Quarterly azure and Or, a cross gules and in canton a lion rampant argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.

Herald - Alan Wemyss

Mathias - French 1380 -1385

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/saintflour.html

Lyon - 15th century

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/york15/surnames-alphabetical.htm

Black's Surnames of Scotland, p 443

Reginald of the loch, 114-1233

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-07 06:58:26
Docs check out. Black's date is 1214-1233.

Additional doc for Mathias, DMNES, Matthew, Early Modern English shows Mathias dated to 1592, " Mathias BEmar-vol1 p. 15". Url: http://dmnes.org/name/Matthew
Additional doc for Lyon, R&W, s.n. Lyon, Lyons shows William Lyon dated to 1327.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-08 08:34:51
No conflict found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 12:53:47
This should go up with Maridonna's citation for the given name, because otherwise he has three cultures. If Mathias Lyon is entirely English, it doesn't matter that 'of the Loch' is Scottish.

The citation should be Black, s.n. Loch, which is page 433 in my edition. The citation is actually Reginald of the Loch with the L capitalized, as submitted.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:26:12
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:42:36
Suggested blazon: "Quarterly azure and Or, a Latin cross throughout gules and in canton a lion argent."
No conflict found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:29:59
With its horizontal strip centered firmly on the fess-line marks, there is no reason to call this cross Latin. Go with the submitted blazon minus the default "rampant",

Quarterly azure and Or, a cross gules and in canton a lion argent

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 21:38:31
I would keep the throughout to make very clear this is not a cross couped gules.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 22:03:55
I would not. If you wanted a cross couped, you'd need to say it.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 15:10:26
And even if someone thought it was, this cross wouldn't be on an argent background or capable of being displayed on one.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:26:40
Agree with Gerard's blazon tweak. No conflicts found.


10: Mavis Campbell -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 19, 2016 as submitted.

Per bend sinister sable and gules, in pale three unicorns courant argent

Herald: Conall Ramsey

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-06 14:28:38
This is a resubmission, the original was returned at Laurel.

January 2017 LoAR This device is returned for the use of unicornate horses. Unicorns, in Society armory, are expected to have cloven hooves, a lion's tail, tufts of hair on the legs and generally a beard. Here we have horses with a beard and a frontal horn.

I believe this fixes those issues.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:34:50
Name was registered January 2017. Hopefully the submitter wasn't charged for this as the resub is free.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-08 09:05:38
No conflict found.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 13:02:54
These still aren't very goaty, but they should be enough to pass. It doesn't help that they are courant, which is an uncommon heraldic position for unicorns. (Says the woman with a courant unicorn, one of reasons you should see my change of arms on the next KLoI.) It's tough to draw a courant equine without having it look like it's show jumping.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:27:42
No conflicts found. This time they look a bit more like unicorns instead of horny horses.


11: Meadhbh Ingean Ui Mheadhra -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Medb ingen Dáire(7/2016)

Language (early modern irish gaelic) most important.
Culture most important.

Meadhbh

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/1201-1600.shtml

O/ Corra/in, Donnchadh and Fidelma Maguire, _Irish Names_ (Dublin:

The Lilliput Press, 1990), s.n. Meadhbh. (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2196+0)

Examples of that first name in the SCA:

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=172

Inghean Ui

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/resources/gaelicangirish.html

Mheadhra

Ó MEADHRA--I--O Mary, O'Meara, O'Mara, Meara, Mara; 'descendant of Meadhair' (mirth); the name of a Dalcassian family who were chiefs of a district called Rosarguid, in the barony of Upper Ormond, Co. Tipperary. O'Meara had his seat at Toomyvara (Tuaim Uí Mheadhra). The family retained considerable property down to the revolution of 1690. (Rev Patrick Woulfe, 1923, http://www.libraryireland.com/names/om/o-meadhra.php)

Mheadhra being the famle version of Meadhra.

Someone else with that last name in the SCA:

https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=172

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:38:14
Make it <Meadhbh ingean Ui Mheadhra>. Fix the typo "famle" in the headmatter to "female". And delete the examples of earlier registrations; they are not probative.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 13:43:46
Word. In fact, I'd send it up with this:

Meadhbh is found as a feminine given name in the Irish Annals from the mid 15th century. This spelling is the expected form post-1200 and is the most common form found in the 16th century. http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Meadhbh.shtml

inghean Uí is a Gaelic phrase meaning 'daughter of the descendant' and is the standard form for a clan byname for a female. Submitter would like the accent dropped, which is allowed per precedent, to inghean Ui. http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/

Ó Meadhra is a family name found spelled "O Mary" in anglicized records in 1599. http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml

The Gaelic version Ó Meadhra is found in Woulfe, s.n. Ó Meadhra. Woulfe cites O Mary as an anglicized form circa 1600. The element inghean Ui replaces Ó for a feminine name. Meadhra is the genitive (possessive) form of meadhair, 'mirth, speech'. http://www.dil.ie/31734

Feminine byname forms require lenition, a softening of the initial consonant which often result in a spelling change. The lenited spelling of Meadhra is Mheadhra. http://medievalscotland.org/scotlang/lenition.shtml

(Woulfe is a no-photocopy source.)

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 13:47:20
Normally I'd stop at Woulfe, but I looked for a spelling from the annals and couldn't find one; it appears no O Maras got recorded with their clan byname. Woulfe did have a period form listed, and Mari supplied the details. Be aware that surnames in Woulfe that don't show an italicized form after the header may not be period.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:28:12
Docs appear to check out.


12: Melinda del Feld -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2008, via Ansteorra.

Per bend sinister azure and vert, a garb and double tressure Or

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:31:38
This is not a new device. It was returned by Laurel in the July 2016 LoAR and September 2008 LoAR. Hopefully the submitter was not charged a fee for this as a free resub is due from the 2016 return.

No conflicts found this time around.

Galen of Ockham at 2017-08-07 12:49:49
This is a completely different design from the previous submissions. Does it still fall in the free resub? The fee was paid on this and the previous submissions.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-07 12:51:20
Yup! So long as it's within two years of the return, it is free.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-07 14:27:49
The 2008 submission was Per bend sinister vert and argent, in dexter chief a garb Or, returned for conflict, so not a completely different design from that. I admire submitter having hit on an equally strong, simple design.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:28:29
No conflicts found.


13: Mýra Gyða -New Name Change & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Marchias(1/1981), Marie Joyeux (12/1994), Mariss Ghijs (1/2005), Merewyke (2/2014), Moire Ayres (3/2010), Mora Gowe (8/2003), Mwre, House (3/2005)

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in February of 2016, via Ansteorra.

Sable, in pale a cinquefoil Or and a triquetra inverted argent

Old Item: Gyda in kyrra, to be retained as an alternate name.
Submitter desires a feminine name.

Gyða: Norse given name

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames

Mýra- Norse byname (in the form of a prefix)

http://ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/vikbynames.html

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:48:30
Adding "the normal hyphen between the prepended byname and the given name" (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/05/16-05lar.html#35), make it

<Mýra-Gyða>

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 17:48:27
Gyða Geirr Bassi page 10 Womens Old Norse given name.
Mýra- Geirr Bassi page 26 prefix byname Moor- Mire- Myrr- (area in Iceland).
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:28:52
The documentation provided supports Gyða as a given name and Mýra- as a prepended byname. Note that the hyphen is there.

Device Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 17:22:03
No conflict found.

This is not a New Device. It was returned by Laurel in February 2016 and is another free resubmission that was labeled as a new submission needing payment.

Has the reason for return been addressed? It was a victim of the SENA unity rule and I will need to search precedent on how these compact charges are now treated.

[February 2016 LoAR, R-Ansteorra] Gyda in kyrra. Device. Per bend gules and vert, in pale triquetra inverted and a triquetra between flaunches argent.
This device is returned for violating SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, which states "The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation" The charges here are not in a unified arrangement, as their orientations have to be described separately.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-08-12 13:37:01
This is not a cinquefoil. As per the October 2016 LoAR Cover Letter: "Using the blazon of an X-foil to describe the emblazon of a flower with X petals, where the petals are typically round and attached to the center at a single point or in such other manner that there's obvious "seeding", does not necessarily ensure the reproducibility of the submitted charge from that blazon. ... To allow for reproducibility of what the submitter has submitted, we have been and will continue reblazoning X-foils that do not look like actual X-foils as the closest known period flower of X petals, or returning for redraw if no accurate blazon can be found."

These should be reblazoned, but my botanical knowledge is a bit limited. Suggestions for what sort of period flower this most resembles?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-12 16:44:44
Cinquefoil pierced?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-13 09:53:12
No. The petal shape is wrong, as Maister Iago points out, whether or not pierced.

Among the 5-petaled non-cinquefoils are many borage flowers forget-me-nots, and ramson flowers, but all those petals are narrower. The closest I found with a search on FLOWER-FEW PETALS are the Margat of Silvercreek's from https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=58698, blazoned as periwinkles--and I don't think they're close enough!

This could reasonably be blazoned

Sable, in pale a rose Or seeded sable and a triquetra inverted argent

For that, the petals are the right shape. I believe the conflict check should work from that assumption.

1: Image 1

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 12:20:16
So, when looking at the tracable art, http://heraldicart.org/cinquefoil/

we see that these petals have the traditional point of the first cinquefoil, but the closeness/cluster of the 3rd option on this page.

#3. Here's a period French ivory carving with some flowers on shields that are similar. http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/475487

#4. and a French period armorial c.1475 Armorial et traité d'héraldique, FRANCAIS 24381 - http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/Stars/1475-1475_FRANCAIS_24381.htm with some flowers drawn similarly.

Folio 182 http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Daguerre&O=7878151

A whole lot of meandering to say: I think this is a stylized flower, which would be properly blazoned as a cinquefoil. Otherwise, if we have to blazon it as a particular flower, it seems just as reasonable to blazon it as a rose Or seeded sable.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-15 13:27:59
Please look again at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/10/16-10cl.html#4, "From Wreath: Where the Wild Foils Grow", that Maister Iago cites above. Our Sovereigns have finally determined that only what http://mistholme.com/dictionary/foil/ calls "a class of generic flowers ... not of any natural species, but ... highly stylized heraldic charges" will henceforth be blazoned as N-foils. Not all stylized flowers qualify, and this charge is clearly among those that do not. The traceable art page is now partially obsolete.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 13:50:57
So, we're stuck at "it existed" and barely legible faded 15th century French, so I'm not sure how to dig deeper on that one. This isn't my wheelhouse, and the bit of digging I have done hasn't gotten me closer to a specific flower to call it, leaving me willing to let Wreath reblazon with what they find appropriate.

I'm reaching out to see if the submitter meant a specific flower.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 19:08:33
submitter intends for a generic 5-petaled flower.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-15 22:34:02
Well, then.

Sable, in pale a five-petaled flower Or seeded sable and a triquetra inverted argent

Only one such blazon in the O&A--Catheryn Cameron Stewart Morgan's badge. Aug 2000, ... an eight petaled flower alternating petals argent and azure barbed vert...-so Wreath will probably end up substituting. But we at least won't have gone beyond submitter's wishes.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-15 13:33:10
It would be nice for the submitter to have the correct desired flower but if it is blazonable Wreath will blazon it as needed. Does this design clear the SENA A3D2c issues?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 13:57:22
can flowers be inverted? I'm honestly not sure on this one, since, in theory we have the "upright" item above the inverted item.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-15 14:16:12
No, we have precedent (and to some extent SENA) that they can't--at least, not for difference. How that feeds into the Unity rules I know not.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-15 14:24:44
Yea, I saw the stuff for difference, but wasn't sure if that applied/transferred in this case. I think this is okay, since they don't have comparable postures, see the note below.

May 2012 letter http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/05/12-05cl.html It seems to us best to apply the concept of "comparable postures", as described in section A5G7, which references Appendix L. In short, if the charges in a single charge group do not have comparable postures, they are not in violation of the "identical postures/orientations" part of the rule. The charge group as a whole must still be in a standard arrangement.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-15 21:24:09
You have to love SENA A3D2c. Pay particular attention to the last line of the ruling from the most recent June 2017 LoAR.
The answer for this submission appears to be somewhere in these rulings. At least until we get the future longer explanation of Unity.

[January 2016 LoAR]
From Wreath: a Short Note about Unity of Orientation
Some ambiguity exists in the interpretation of SENA A3D2c due to the fact that it mentions Unity of Posture and Orientation together. Posture and orientation are different and independent parameters and we have returned inanimate, as well as animate, charges in cases where the orientation was the differing criteria. However, the default orientation (and thus the inverted version thereof) of an inanimate charge is an artifact of our Society-defined defaults. It does not seem fair to submitters to penalize them when considering two or more non-identical inanimate charges where one charge needs to be blazoned as inverted and the other does not solely because of our defined default orientations. In consequence, armorial designs that use such a combination will not be returned for that reason alone. Note that a difference in axis is a different issue, and will still be a violation of unity of orientation, barring period evidence to the contrary, as will a difference of orientation for identical charges.

[January 2016 LoAR, R-Middle]
Brigit ingen Nialláin. Device. Per chevron azure and vert, two arrows bendwise inverted and an owl Or.
This device is returned for violating SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, which states "The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation" The charges here are all in the primary charge group and are not in a unified arrangement, as the orientation of the two bendwise arrows has to be described independently of the default orientation of the bird.

[February 2016 LoAR, R-Ansteorra]
Gyda in kyrra. Device. Per bend gules and vert, in pale triquetra inverted and a triquetra between flaunches argent.
This device is returned for violating SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, which states "The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation" The charges here are not in a unified arrangement, as their orientations have to be described separately.

[June 2017 LoAR A-An Tir]
Malice de Edynburgh. Device. Per bend sinister bevilled sable and gules, a horse rampant contourny and a sword bendwise sinister argent.
This appeal, pended on the December 2016 LoAR, centered around interpretation of SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, and whether animate and inanimate charges have comparable orientations under the rule. An impressive collection of period armory was provided in commentary in support of considering the orientation of inanimate charges to be distinct from the posture of animate charges. We are therefore explicitly overturning the precedent set in the January 2016 return of Brigit ingen Nialláin's device, which stated: "This device is returned for violating SENA A3D2c, Unity of Posture and Orientation, which states 'The charges within a charge group should be in either identical postures/orientations or an arrangement that includes posture/orientation.' The charges here are not in a unified arrangement, as the orientation of the two bendwise arrows has to be described independently of the default orientation of the bird."
A longer and more comprehensive explanation of Unity of Posture and Orientation is currently being written and will be released in a future Cover Letter.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:29:55
Once again, a perfectly reasonable design falls victim to the Unity of Posture and Orientation rule.


14: Narkissa Ekaterina Vladimirovna -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 1997, via Ansteorra.

Argent, a bend sinister wavy vert charged with four ducks naiant palewise Or

Herald: Magdalena von Hallenberg

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:25:30
Suggested blazon: "Argent, on a bend sinister wavy vert four ducks naiant palewise Or."
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:32:00
Agree with Magnus' blazon tweak. No conflicts found.


15: Olive de Leiham -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

http://heraldy.sca.org/names/english/devonfem1238.html

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-06 14:38:48
Typo in link: http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/devonfem1238.html

Docs check out.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 13:51:11
A little text would be nice, though.

Both name elements (Olive, de Leiham) are found in Feminine names from Devon, 1238. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/english/devonfem1238.html

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-07 07:06:25
Docs check out. No conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:32:29
What Maridonna said.


16: Osric Iron Skull -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Herald: Brian O'hUilliam - brianoftheloch@gmail.com

Osric.Ironskull is from Geir Bassi, a no photocopy source, and uses the Lingua Anglica Rule.

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-07-26/13-22-19_Osric-Name-Doc-PASE_.jpg

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-06 14:33:57
jarnhauss is cited in Geir Bassi meaning ironskull on page 24. Old English and Old Norse are an acceptable mix per SENA.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 17:32:29
No conflict found. Would the byname be Ironskull or Iron-skull?

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-07 14:32:08
Explanation of documentation for the first name:

The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) has 14 entries for <Osric> between with this spelling 633 and 950. URL: www.pase.ac.uk/index.html.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-09 14:10:55
If you submit this as Osric Iron Skull, people will be looking for documentation on three names. The allowance wants you to stay as close to the attested form as possible, so I'd use Ironskull or iron-skull, making clear that the attested form is a single name/word.

Osric is found at PASE as a headword for 14 persons found between the 7th and 11th centuries. http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/pdb?dosp=VIEW_RECORDS&st=PERSON_NAME&value=1736&level=1&lbl=Osric

Ironskull is submitted under the Lingua Anglica Allowance in SENA as a translation of the Norse byname járnhauss, glossed as 'iron skull' on pg. 24 of Geirr Bassi.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:33:28
Given name doc checks out. From the comments on the epithet, I assume it should be one word: Ironskull.


17: Padric O Mullan -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 1998, via Ansteorra.

Per pale sable and azure, issuant from base flames proper, and a bordure Or

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 14:13:05
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:34:09
Consider Gisele Flambeau, badge reg. 7/06 (via the East: "Gules, a flame within a bordure Or." There's a DC for the field, but is there another for the position of the flame(s)?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-14 15:22:09
No, there isn't. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/12/12-12lar.html#132, Aildreda de Tamworthe" "We do not grant difference for charges issuant from base versus not", broader than http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/04/12-04lar.html, s.n. Avelyn of the Hedge, "we do not give difference for a sole primary versus a sole primary issuant from base". See also http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/10/13-10lar.html#86, Giliana Ravenild, for justification from period use.

However, there is a second DC for half the tincture of the primary charge, gules vs. Or. So not a conflict.


18: Rosalia del Espinar -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2016, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldles) A rose quarterly sable and argent

Herald: Elena Wyth

Badge Comments:

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 21:54:29
No conflict found. This is the submittor's device as a fieldless badge.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:34:28
No conflicts found.


19: Sæbjorn Erikson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2015, via Ansteorra.

Per pale vert and azure, a bear rampant and a chief wavy argent

Herald: Lord Dragos

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 18:58:23
The emblazon may pass with an artist's note to draw the waves deeper. It would be better and more certain to make the correction now.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-07 11:37:21
No conflict found. The wavy is drawn as a shallow ripple but not bad enough to return.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-08-14 14:34:58
The wavy line should ideally be composed of alternating semicircles. No conflicts found.



OSCAR counts 7 Names, 1 Name Change, 10 Devices, 1 Device Change and 5 Badges. There are a total of 24 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]


Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos