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Trimaris ILoI dated 2017-06-30

Greetings and Salutation,

The following is the Internal Letter for June for the Kingdom of Trimaris. If you do not see your submission on this letter or on the May External please check your e-mail and/or message me at lymphad@trimaris.org to find out why it was excluded or pended for review.

As always may your criticism be constructive!

1: Asa Thegjandi -New Name

No changes.

Asa - Well documented Anglo-Norman name appropriate to Nordic Countries from the 10th century on, found in St. Gabriel Reports 253, 2572, and 2778

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/253.txt

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2572.txt

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2778.txt

Thegjandi - Byname meaning, "the silent," found in St. Gabriel Report 3041 as well as in LANDNÁMABÓK by Geirr Bassi via the Viking Answer Lady.

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/3041.txt

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-19/01-51-02_Asa_Name_02.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-19/01-51-04_Asa_Name_03.jpg

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-07-20 17:06:00
Oh no, let's cite <Ása> from Geirr Bassi p. 8, since that's an Appendix H "No Photocopy Required" source.

The byname <þegjandi> is NOT on the Viking Answer Lady page yet because I don't have an article on Old Norse bynames. I'm sure they got it from Aryanhwy's article, but let's cite it from an Appendix H source:

E.H. Lind Personbinamn col.406 s.n. <þegjandi>

Lind dates the earliest instance to the 800s.

Mayken van der Alst (Jack) at 2017-07-25 09:12:53
I'd suggest citing Geir Bassi for 'Asa.' Also, according to the cited sources "Thegjandi" is the masculine version, "Thegjandia" is feminine - not very knowledgable about grammar rules regarding Norse names I'm unsure if you can pair a masculine byname with a female first name?

Otherwise, no conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-25 11:49:58
Old Norse does require adjectives to match nouns, Jack--in this case, a proper noun. So:

<Asa Thegjandia>

Thank you for the report!


2: Branwen wreic Owain -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Bryan Morrison(10/1992), Bryanna Marie Joyce Shannon (12/1989)

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (11th-13th Century Welsh) most important.
Meaning (Fair Raven Wife of Owain) most important.

Branwen -

Bran - Academy of St. Gabriel report 2098 (http://www.s-gabriel.org/2098) says: "<Bran> was a rare name. This is the only spelling we've found, and it appears in both Welsh and English contexts [12]." The footnote cites Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, "Names and Naming Practices in the Merioneth Lay Subsidy Roll 1292-3" (Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, 1991) and Bartrum, P.C., Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts (Cardiff, U. of Wales Press, 1966).

Wen - from Gwen a common 13th century female given name in Welsh https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/welsh13.html

wreic - Suspected Welsh equivalent of the Latin uxor meaning wife of. https://www.wtmsources.com/153/153_Constructing%2013th%20century%20welsh%20names.pdf

Owain - Male given name held by the Prince of Wales Owain Glyndwyr www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/owain_glyndwyr.html

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-04 02:00:19
The Problem Names Project's "Concerning the Names Branwen, Bronwen and the Like" addresses the given name pretty comprehensively (https://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/branwen.shtml). Unless evidence is provided that the Welsh used dithematic names in period and that "Bran-" and "-wen" are plausible as elements of such names, the submitted documentation does nothing to counter it. "Jackmas" is not a plausible 20th-century American name just because "Jack" and "Thomas" both are.

The page at the URL given for the source on "wreic" just contains a screenshot of a page from Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names" (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/welsh13.html). That article does state that the submitted form is the expected one for 'wife' in Wales in the 13th century, and states that "<given name> <relationship word> <relative's given name>" is the way bynames of relationship were set up at the time.

Pop history sites are not a reliable source of period forms of names. There is nothing in the site cited for "Owain" that makes me think it an exception. Fortunately, Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2171 says that R&W, s.n. Owen, dates Owain to 1242 (http://s-gabriel.org/2171).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:53:38
Docs check out.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:54:03
I don't believe there are any conflicts.


3: Cristina Maria Juarez de Ontiveros -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Language most important.
Culture (16th Century Spanish) most important.

Name follows the pattern <given name> + <given name> + <patronymic> + <locative>

Cristina - Cristina Navarra (1574, V.3525), Catálogo de Pasajeros a Indias (Catalog of passengers to the New World)

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/fem-given-alpha.html

Maria - Mar'a Hernandez (1539, Ill.11) Catálogo de Pasajeros a Indias (Catalog of passengers to the New World)

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/fem-given-alpha.html

Juarez - Patronymic of Juan

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/index.html

de Ontiveros - Leonor de Ontiveros (1611)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKN5-S7F

Name Comments:

Kormakr Úlfreksson at 2017-07-20 21:08:05
Bishop Francisco Santos García "de Ontiveros" y Martínez

Bishop of Guadalajara 1592-1596

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bsantosg.html

La obra educativa de los jesuitas en Guadalajara, 1586-1986: visión https://books.google.com/books?id=l2wQBkQbUBcC&q=Francisco+Santos+Garc%C3%ADa+de+Ontiveros+y+Mart%C3 %ADnez#v=snippet&q=Francisco%20Santos%20Garc%C3%ADa%20de%20Ontiveros%20y%20Mart%C3%ADnez&f=false

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-22 16:54:11
Given the FamilySearch hit, it is highly probable that the spelling <de Ontiveros> in those works happens to be period. However, both are modern, and unless we have contrary information, can be expected to regularize spelling. (In the second work, in each case the name appears only in authorial text, not in a conceivably exact quotation.) Therefore, they add no new information for our purposes.

Moreover, the long link given for Esteban J. Palomera, La obra educativa de los jesuitas en Guadalajara, 1586-1986 (1986), fails. This is not unexpected. That's why it's better to truncate the link to right before the first & (ampersand), making it https://books.google.com/books?id=l2wQBkQbUBcC. That reliably displays the clickable title page and allows other commenters each to easily search for the relevant text. Even when thus citing GoogleBooks, it may be useful to show author and date of publication--the latter essential if proving spelling before 1651.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-22 16:36:03
Having done a name-pattern search on < Mar[íi]a > I don't believe this conflicts.


4: Denic Spycer -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Denic - Breton diminutive form of Daniel, [-ig] is a common modern Breton diminutive ending)

Denic ou Deniel 1395

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/latebreton/

Spycer - Spycer occupational name from OFr espicier, especier `dealer in spices; apothecary, druggist'.

(1) Coleman Street, 1582;

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/tudorlondon.pdf

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-06-30/23-30-09_Denic_Name_02.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-06-30/23-30-12_Denic_Name_03.jpg

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-04 14:28:58
We can at least get the two phrases in the same period: The Middle English Dictionary, s.n. spīcer (n.), dates "Johannes Spycer" to 1428 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED42186). That's only a 33 year gap, and a no-photocopy source (http://heraldry.sca.org/admin.html#APPENDIXH).

SENA Appendix C doesn't mention Breton, so whether a Breton given name can be combined with a Middle English byname without further documentation is unclear; you'd have to figure out what Regional Naming Group it belongs to in order to tell (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN2C2). Cornish is its nearest linguistic relative, and is part of the English/Welsh regional naming group (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixCEnglish), but that's based on geographic cohesion, and Brittany is not so geographically connected to England as Cornwall. France was Brittany's nearest geographic neighbor during the Middle English period, and Gascon and Provençal (other languages spoken in nearby countries that were later absorbed by France) are listed as part of the French regional naming group (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixCFrench). But those are both Romance languages, far more linguistically similar to French than is Breton. I do wish the logic underpinning Appendix C was explained in the rules. . ..

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:28:08
English and French are listed as combinable, and the English rows of Appendix C list "Welsh, Cornish, Cumbric, etc." and "Welsh, Cornish, Anglicized Irish, Manx, etc." [Emphases added.] We can hope that submitter is okay, but he may turn out a test case.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:54:03
Docs check out.


5: Hradi Viglundsson -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Norse) most important.

Hradi - Hraði masculine given name referenced once in, "Landnámabók," by Geirr Bassi

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html

Viglundsson - Viglundr Norse patronymic byname, meaning Son of Viglundr found in, "Landnámabók," byGeirr Bassi p 457

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=Q7BBAAAAcAAJ&rdid=book-Q7BBAAAAcAAJ&rdot=1

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-05 02:11:20
The sources to which the included URLs lead are not Geirr Bassi. The first is Aryanhwy merch Catmael's "Viking Names found in Landnámabók". The second is a scan of an 18th-century version of Landnámabók that can only be read with the Google Play app, which seems to be the same volume found at https://books.google.com/books?id=Q7BBAAAAcAAJ. It contains Icelandic and Latin text, but no English, so if it is sent up an English translation from a reliable source will have to be sent up with it.

Aryanhwy's article states that "Hraði" and "Víglundr" are normalized Old Norse spellings of masculine given names that each appear once in Landnámabók. It contains nothing that would justify replacing the "ð" in the former with a "d".

"Víglundsson" may be properly constructed. The rules from Geirr Bassi presented in the Viking Answer Lady's "Old Norse Names" (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONNames.shtml) say that generally names ending in -r in the nominative end in -s in the genitive. But they also say, "Certain men's names form their genitive in -ar. Most of these are names ending in -dr. . .." And the companion article, "Old Norse Men's Names", says that "Víglundr", "Appears as the name of the title character in Víglundar saga," (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#v), which makes me think there's a good chance it's one of them. In that case, the patronymic would be "Víglundarson".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:54:43
I thought we were transliterating the edth as "th" rather than "d".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-13 20:30:10
Yep. The d in the header is shown by the cited documentation to be in error--let's call it a typo, okay?--for ð. This should be sent up as <Hraði Viglundsson> with submitter informed of the correction. And also asked whether she will accept <Víglundarson> if that proves to be the only correct form.

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-07-20 16:42:17
E.H. Lind Dopnamn is also an Appendix H "No Photocopy Required" source, and you can access it at https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/009007424 then click the "Full Access" link. This version will allow you to search inside the book, but its OCR that's being searched on doesn't understand special characters, so we search for "Hraoi". Now we can cite it as:

E.H. Lind Dopnamn col.564 s.n. <Hraði>.

Lind says that Þorbiorn Hraða son was an Icelandic settler, which dates the name early in the 800s.

E.H. Lind Dopnamn col.564 s.n. <Víglundr> (note the i-acute) says <Víglundr> is the eponymous hero of Víglundar saga, one of the latest of the Icelandic family sagas, dating to the end of the 14th or beginning of the 15th century, and marks him as a fictional character. Lind noted that the genitive is <-ar>, thus the patronymic should be <Víglundarson>.

This gives us <Hraði Víglundarson>.


6: Juliana Spycer -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (English) most important.
Meaning (Spice Merchant) most important.

Juliana - Female given name occurring twice in \"Late Sixteenth Century English Given Names,\" by Talan Gwynek on St. Gabriel.

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng16/

Spycer - Spycer occupational name from OFr espicier, especier `dealer in spices; apothecary, druggist\'.

(1) Coleman Street, 1582;

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/tudorlondon.pdf

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-01/22-21-02_Juliana_Name_02.jpg
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-01/22-21-04_Juliana_Name_03.jpg
#3 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-01/22-21-06_Juliana_Name_04.jpg
#4 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-01/22-21-07_Juliana_Name_05.jpg

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:55:05
Docs check out.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 20:06:58
I hope just clear of <Juliana Spencer>, Apr 2006, under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN3C2. Inarguably /ɛ/ ≠ /aɪ/, /n/ ≠ 0, for sound. And I believe "the change in spelling (including addition or removal of letters) [that] must affect at least two letters in that syllable to be substantial" is satisfied by <-en-> ≠ <-y->.


7: Oddný Daufi -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Norse) most important.
Meaning (Point of Spear, Leader or Chief) most important.

Oddný - Feminine Norse Name found in Landnámabók by Aryanhwy Merch Catmael, m.k.a. Sarah L. Uckelman

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html

Daufi - Andres Daufi (1100s, pg. 58) from Norsk-isländska personbinamn från medeltiden, samlade och ... Lind, E. H. (Erik Henrik), 1849-1931.

https://tinyurl.com/yau67daj

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=1903/2017-07-19/02-04-07_Oddny_Name_02.jpg

Name Comments:

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-07-20 16:19:51
<Oddný> is in Geirr Bassi, p. 13. We might as well use the "No Photocopy Required" source.

She doesn't have the correct etymology, however. The first element <Odd-> is identical with Old Icelandic <oddr>, "point, weapon-point, spear-point, arrow-point." The second element <-ný> is from the the OW.Norse adjective <nýr> "new"; also, this is a feminine name element only.

The byname is incorrectly cited. Lind has column numbers, not page numbers. Checking Appendix H of the Administrative Handbook (http://heraldry.sca.org/admin.html#APPENDIXH) shows that this source is on the "No Photocopy Required" list, so cite it as:

E.H. Lind Personbinamn col. 58 s.n. <Daufi>

(Also, never use a TinyURL... Some webpages can't be accessed in every country the same way, and heralds elsewhere may need the full URL to try and access via VPN.)

Checking the Cleasby-Vigfusson dictionary p.97 s.v. <daufr> (slso an Appendix H source) shows <daufi> is the weak masculine form of the strong masculine adjective <daufr>, "deaf". That means the submitted byname is grammatically incorrect: since this is a feminine name, the byname must be <in daufa>, with the feminine definite article and feminine case ending.

Ephrem Orbeli (Archive) (Lymphad) at 2017-07-21 01:23:43
I tried the full URL, unfortunately OSCAR chewed it up because it didn't like the way it was formatted and broke the link. This was the best workaround I had at my disposal.


8: Robert de Grey -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Robert de Guerre(10/1982), Robert de Kari (3/2006), Robertus Cissor (5/2016)

Chevronelly Or and Sable a bend sinister sable.

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Robert - Fourth most common masculine given name found in, "Yorkshire Given Names from 1379," by Talan Gwynek mka Brian M. Scott

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/yorkshire.html#yorkm

de Grey - Variation of the English surname Grey held by Reginald de Grey and William de Grey as documented in, "English Surnames: Their Sources and Significations, 7th Edition," by Charles Bardsley. Located in the Index of Instances p. 556 col 2.

Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:55:22
Looks OK.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:40:22
It would be interesting to know whether the several dentalized dialects that make <the Gra/ey> homonymous with <de Gra/ey> must be considered important modern (or even period) pronunciations. But I find no conflict with this submission, so it will not elicit that decision

Device Comments:

Daniel the Broc at 2017-07-03 10:54:26
Unfortunatly we conflict with Medve Arszlan - "Per bend sinister argent and gules, a bend sinister sable."

There's a DC for the change of field, but that's the only one.

The fact that the line of the bend lined up exactly with the one set of chevrons threw mew a bit, but I suppose there's really no better way to draw that

Seraphina Delfino (Ragged Staff) at 2017-07-03 15:16:48
There is also conflict with Tanzania The following badge associated with this name was registered in September of 1995 (via Laurel): Per bend sinister vert and azure, a bend sinister sable fimbriated Or. Important non-SCA flag 1 DC for field, there is no dc for fimbriation.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-04 13:40:02
With our standard capitalization and punctuation:

Chevronelly Or and sable, a bend sinister sable

Calpurnia Fortunata (Seacat) at 2017-07-09 19:24:10
I do agree that the join of the chevrons and the bend are a little off-putting, visually, so I would advise client to make sure that they are careful with how they're lining those up.

Diderick van dem Mere (Archive) at 2017-07-09 19:28:26
Since there is conflict with at least 2 submissions, perhaps get with the client about a redo. I loke the concept. It is nice but take this opportunity to maybe come up with something clear.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:57:06
I don't like this, but know of nothing that forbids it. Agree with Daniel's conflict call vs. Medve Arszlan.


9: Taileflaith inghean ui Orthanach -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Culture (Early Period Irish) most important.

Taileflaith - Female given name born by an abbess of Clonguffin in 782 A.D. found in, Donnchadh Ó Corráin and Fidelma Maguire. Irish Names, 2nd edition (Dublin, Ireland: Lilliput Press, 1990).

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Taileflaith.shtml

Inghean Ui - patronymic byname preposition meaning, "daughter of."

Orthanach - Male given name found in, Donnchadh Ó Corráin and Fidelma Maguire. Irish Names, 2nd edition (Dublin, Ireland: Lilliput Press, 1990).

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Orthanach.shtml

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-05 04:02:41
The provided URLs are to Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's "Index of Names in Irish Annals". I'm not sure where OC&M comes into it.

The linked source gives "Taileflaith" as the standard Old Irish Gaelic nominative form of a feminine given name (appropriate to c700-c900) and "Orthanach" as the standard Middle Irish Gaelic nominative form of a masculine given name (appropriate to c900-c1200). It states that "Orthanaig" is the corresponding genitive form of the latter.


There are a couple of problems with the construction of the submitted byname.

First, a clan affiliation byname begins with the genitive form of the clan ancestor's given name, not the nominative (https://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#clanaffiliationbyname). I think that's a fixable problem--changing the case of an element seems like a minor change to me--but it is one that will get in the way if it's not fixed.

Second, you can't mix languages in a single name phrase without offering documentation of a pattern of similar mixes in period (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN1B1). "Inghean" is standard Early Modern Irish Gaelic. With a Middle Irish Gaelic given name you need "ingen" (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixAGaelic). This one could be a bar to registration; I'm fairly sure putting either element in a different language would qualify as a major change.

So, "ingen Uí Orthanaig" would be a properly constructed 10th- to 13th-century clan affiliation byname, and "Taileflaith ingen Uí Orthanaig" would probably be registrable, as the phrases are from a single regional naming group and dated within 500 years of each other (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN2C2), but it's likely we'd have to get permission from the submitter to send it up.

There's one other thing to consider. Clan affiliation bynames were used in Ireland only from the 10th century forward (https://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#clanaffiliationbyname). So depending on what the submitter means by "early period Irish", this kind of name might not be appropriate to her persona. Since that's THE MOST IMPORTANT THING about the name to her, it might be a good idea for someone to discuss the matter with her.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-13 19:58:44
Agree with Colblaith's grammar corrections.


10: Vadrian dictus Demon de Strigonius -New Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Trimaris LoI of May 31, 2017 as submitted.

Argent, a broadsword inverted sable interleaving a triquetra inverted vert and in chief two ankhs sable.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-22 16:28:17
Try:

Argent, a broadsword inverted sable interlaced with a triquetra inverted vert, in chief two ankhs sable

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-31 16:10:48
I agree with the reblazon.


Yours in service,

Lord Ephrem Orbeli

Lymphad Herald Trimaris


OSCAR counts 9 Names and 2 Devices. There are a total of 11 items submitted on this letter.

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