SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
LoIs
KLoIs
SENA
Prec
AH
Track
Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Ansteorra Kingdom ILoI dated 2017-07-06

Greetings

This letter contains submissions from the mail, Gulf Wars, and the Ansteorran Heraldic & Scribal Symposium

1: Caedmon Cargill -New Name & New Device

Vert, on a chevron throughout between three pairs of arrows inverted saltire Or a latin cross sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Herald: Artorius Germanus Barony of Shadowlands

Caedmon - Old English given name s.n. Cadman in Reaney and Wilson

English poet d. 680 http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Caedmon-the-first-English-poet/

Cargill - legal name allowance - DL seen and attested to by Ruby Gleann Abhann [ckag], Lawton Meridies (Soran the Wayward), Habicht Herald (Calontir)

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-07 00:22:03
The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon database (http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/index.jsp) dates Caedmon to 731, citing Bede's Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 05:02:51
Docs check out. R&W also says that there is no evidence for the post-Conquest use of OE Caedmon but that doesn't matter since he's using the LNA.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:12:22
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:22:57
docs check, no conflicts found

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 11:44:33
Sigh. I think my new bugbear is going to be the LNA. We shouldn't be using the LNA on period names, nor should it cause us to turn our brains off.

Black, s.n. Cargill, "From the lands of the same name...":

Walter de Kergyl, 1260 Symon Cargyl, 1457 Patrick Cargil, 1498 Thomas Carnigill, 1580 Thomas Cargill (same guy), 1585

Fine name.

The question here is not really even whether the LNA lets us combine Caedmon and Cargill, but whether Caedmon should be registered AT ALL.

We have a unique example from one literary work. It is interesting to look at the original Bede (Book IV, chapter XXII), because Bede never names Caedmon. The only time the name appears is when God miraculously speaks to the cowherd and commands him to sing. Bede goes on to tell the guy's life story, and never uses that name (or any other). Bede says he was English/Anglo-Saxon (Bede says, "id est Anglorum, lingua proferret" 'in English, his native language'), but Caedmon is not an A-S name. There is much discussion as to what the source of the name might have been; personally, since God said it, I'm going with caedere 'to sacrifice' (because God speaks Latin, of course). But since God said it, I think the suggestion is like Simon becoming Peter when Christ said "Upon this rock I will build my church." (et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam) When God calls you by name, it's your name, whether your Mom called you that or not.

There are no other mentions of this person. Though Bede goes on and on about his countless poetic works, nothing survives but the little snippet Bede includes in the story. This has "allegory" written all over it. We have no evidence of this name ever having been borne by anyone whose birth or death we can verify. ("Caedmon's Cross," his memorial, was erected in the 19th century.) I believe that Caedmon falls, if not absolutely into the allegorical 'Everyman' category, then certainly into the "the names of characters from the life stories of saints (like the parents and siblings of saints)" category of borrowed names which SENA calls rare and does not permit without an IAP.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-03 18:29:08
Laurel (Pelican) seems to have the identical attitude toward the LNA, given how often LoARs cite documentation followed by "so submitter need not rely on the legal name allowance".

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-04 19:36:42
Well, a new Laurel tenure will start soon. See if there is interest in getting rid of the Legal Name allowance. It would require BoD support but it would be nice to dump that rule on the scrapheap of history.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 13:49:32
Cadmon is mentioned A Hand-book to the Land-Charters and Other Saxonic Documents by John Earle in a charter from 949. This assumes said charter isn't a forgery or that our submitters should be expected to determine that.
https://archive.org/stream/ahandbooktoland00earlgoog#page/n489/mode/2up
It looks like a is used for æ and I wonder if that is a normalized spelling.
Of course, if he will accept the late period version we don't need the Old English.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-05 17:30:15
Verbatim from a wise colleague of my acquaintance:

Some people are not comfortable creating an alternate name/persona for use in the SCA. Within that group, the feeling varies; some simply not wanting to make the effort, some feeling that it could be the first step toward mental illness, some feeling that it was morally or legally wrong, etc. Recruitment and retention of new members is a vital function of the SCA. As such, I believe that part of the CoA's mandate from the Board of Directors is to keep name registration open to all people. My understanding is that the legal name allowance was created in an effort to include those people who are opposed to changing their name/persona but still want to register arms.
So I think we need to keep the LNA.

As has been pointed out to SF fans like me, if we're going to pride ourselves on striding off the beaten path, we need to accept and honor the sincerity of those on different paths than ours. In any case, there's no good method of limiting the LNA to conscientious objectors; we have to let the other categories use it too.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 17:43:02
That being said, does this name need me to do further research? This letter closes this weekend.

Sneferu sa Djedi mewtif Merit (Golden Pillar) at 2017-08-05 17:49:34
One nice thing about the LNA is that it allows us to treat the allowed element as neutral in culture/time. As such we only need to confirm the docs for Caedmon which has already been done.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-05 23:43:33
And which Mistress Adelaide has comprehensively shot down, to my mind.

Unless submitter wants <Cadmon Cargill>, as documented by the next subthread.

Sneferu sa Djedi mewtif Merit (Golden Pillar) at 2017-08-06 00:10:33
My apologies. I had assumed she was merely arguing against the PASE reference; not the R&W.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 06:41:32
As far as registration purposes:
Caedmon- Use the citation Coblaith found in The Prosopography.
[April 2017 Cover Letter]
From Pelican: Grammar and Old English / Anglo-Saxon Names
The best source for the nominative form of an Old English / Anglo-Saxon name is the name database in the Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England website (http://www.pase.ac.uk/). Header forms from the PASE website are always in the nominative case. Both the header forms and the documentary forms from PASE are registerable.
Cargill- SENA PN.1.B.e. Legal Name Allowance: Name phrases from the submitter's legal names may be used.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 20:31:40
I note the following at IGI:

Joana Cadmon, married 20 June 1590 Batch M03587-2, an allowed batch per precedent

Using the late period surname as given name allowance, Cadmon (without the E) makes a nice combination with Cargill. Cadmon Cargill is a slam-dunk with no LNA required. Given the multiple pieces of armory, it might be the better part of valor to submit the lot under a secure name and worry later about fighting for the E. The name Caedmon has not been registered in over 15 years, and our sources and standards have gotten a lot better since then.

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:00:21
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=909

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:01:04
There's also a book calped caedmons hymns

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:18:57
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.encyclopedia.com/people/literature-and-arts/english-literature-1499-biographies/caedmon&v ed=0ahUKEwjRqJqt2M3VAhUc8YMKHf29C64QFgjXATAe&usg=AFQjCNH_UQx2skIwfIb02PC756fs160kDw

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:15:16
It's what's called a "proper adjective" and so (with 1 that's not out of about 400 that are) gets capped in our practice. And we need another preposition anyway. So:

Vert, on a chevron throughout between three pairs of arrows inverted in saltire Or a Latin cross sable

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:17:47
I find the heads and fletching of the arrows barely identifiable, and suspect that without having read the blazon before looking (yes, it's a bad habit) I might not do even that well with them.

Other opinions desirable.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:16:18
Agree that they heads & fletching are small on the arrows, but I thought they were still identifiable as arrows. My thought would be an artist's note, but a larger depiction wouldn't hurt.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-14 13:03:46
no conflict found, the charges are hard to distinquish on the pennsic field test but that is an artist alter

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 08:52:00
I, too, agree about the recognizability of the arrows. I would think perhaps a change to argent and redraw might help in that.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 11:23:48
I don't see any need for a tincture change.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:13:00
Agree that enlarging both the heads and the fletching of the arrows would make them more easily identifiable. Agree with Gerard's blazon tweaks. No conflicts found.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-03 07:12:22
Also no conflict found. Reblazon looks excellent and I definitely concur with the comments about the arrows.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 15:55:14
No conflict found.

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:04:23
Ill make sure to tell him to have the artists enlarge flecthing and head.

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:06:34
He won't mind changing the dragon if its necessary.


2: Caedmon Cargill -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Per bend sinister Or and sable a cross flory sable and a dragon dormant wings upraised argent

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:29:23
We use upraised only for limbs, and this isn't a default equal-armed cross. Prefer:

Per bend sinister Or and sable, a Latin cross flory sable and a dragon dormant wings elevated and addorsed argent

The elevated and can be omitted, but since it reflects the submitted wording, and the longer and shorter phrasings are equally common in the O&A, I've included it.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:30:25
Although I'm itching to feed the dragon charge chow, I cannot claim it's unrecognizably small.

Do others agree?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-07 16:08:39
I totally agree that the dragon could stand to be larger/fill the space more. He's tiny compared to the cross.

Alan Wemyss at 2017-07-09 23:20:42
For co-primary charges, the cross seems to have a fair bit more visual weight than the dragon. The dragon is plenty recognizable, but the cross is more dominant in a design where the two should be equal.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-14 12:39:46
no conflict found, id like to see both charges fill their respective field areas a bit more

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 08:54:45
Would the submitter perhaps agree to change the stance of the dragon in order to get it to show better against the cross and perhaps center the cross more within the space?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:18:02
Agree that both charges should be redrawn to more nearly fill their spaces. Agree with Gerard's blazon tweaks.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 13:31:44
Hope the submitter accepts THAT tweak for presenting to our Sovereigns!

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-03 07:25:25
No conflicts found and I concur with the blazon tweaks proposed by Michael above and the great redraw by Green Anchor. The redraw would not be required to move to Laurel as the current depiction is not a bar to registration.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 16:06:05
No conflict found.

Artorius at 2017-08-10 17:07:47
He won't mind changing the dragon if necessary.


3: Emma Katerina Wight -New Household Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2016, via Ansteorra.

House of the Golden Shrike

No major changes.
Meaning (Golden Shrike) most important.

Herald: Brigida von Munchen

- The name follows a well established pattern of inn names derived from a common name or heraldic charge combined with a color or adjective. "English Sign Names" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada shows inn signs to have color and animal. http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/inn/#coloranimal

- Medieval English Dictionary lists golden (adj) 3)having the color of gold, golden, yellow, shining like gold http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med

- OED defines shrike as a songbird with a strongly hooked bill, often implaing its prey of smaller birds. Dated to the mid-16th century, perhaps related to the Old English seric "thrush" http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/shrike

Household Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:59:01
We have not registered a shrike in the O&A. However, we along with mundane heraldry have a pattern of many different birds as charges.

The definition quoted is not from the OED (which has a quite different though not contradictory entry online) but rather, as shown by the link, from the Oxford Dictionaries, called in the logo at the top of the page the "Oxford Living Dictionaries" [itals in original]. It has also been truncated and slightly altered without acknowledgment and I believe inappropriately. The defining phrase in full is, "A songbird with a strong sharply hooked bill, often impaling its prey of small birds, lizards, and insects on thorns." (Accessed today, 7/7/2017.)

The quoted etymology also has a typo in the etymon that should be corrected: "Old English scrīc `thrush'". (The OED online says "apparently representing Old English scríc, scréc (glossing Latin `turdus'), which was perhaps used generally for birds having shrill cries", but the whole entry apologizes that it "has not yet been fully updated".)

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 16:43:56
We have registerd Shrike Herald but nothing closer. If anything more on a period spelling is needed there is:
Middle English Dictionary s.n. skrī̆ke (n.)
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED40739
(c) a1500(?c1450) Merlin (Cmb Ff.3.11) 15: The childe fill oute of hire arme and cryde; The wemen..axed hir, 'Whi made the childe this shrike?'

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:18:36
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:24:27
no conflict found


4: Eys von Lübeck -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (German) most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Colm Dubh Shire of Shadowlands

Eys - http://heraldry.sca.org/names/germmasc.html

1351-1400beck, 1143

von Lübeck - 1143 Duden Taschenbücher Geographische Namen in Deutschland

https://searchworks.stanford.edu/catalog?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_field=search&q=von+lubeck

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 05:37:35
The doc for Eys checks out. von Lübeck - Geographische Namen in Deutschland : Herkunft und Bedeutung der Namen von Ländern, Städten, Bergen und Gewässern. https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2892468

I couldn`t search the book. Googlebooks limited preview didn't allow a snippet view when searching for only for Lübeck so I found Britannica.com Lübeck Germany, "Lübeck, in full Hansestadt Lübeck ("Hanseatic City of Lübeck"), city and major seaport, Schleswig-Holstein Land (state), northern Germany. It is located on the Trave and Wakenitz rivers, about 9 miles (14 km) from the Baltic Sea. In the Middle Ages it was one of the main commercial centres of northern Europe and the chief city of the Hanseatic League (an association of towns for the protection of trading interests)." https://www.britannica.com/place/Lubeck

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 14:45:03
Unfortunately the Britannica is not heavy on establishing period spellings for the locations it covers, which is the goal of this exercise. Nor have we seen any reason to believe the Geographische Namen does so.

However, we are spoiled for choice among early modern works that mention <Lübeck> available from GoogleBooks in full to all. Perhaps simplest to cite, because the city's name is right in the title with no very hard words, is at https://books.google.com/books?id=EtZRAAAAcAAJ, Der Kayserlichen Freyen und des Heiligen ReichsStadt Lübeck Statuta und Stadt Recht, 1586, which I make 'The Imperial Free [City] <Lübeck> of the Holy Empire Statutes and City Law'. 1586 is within the required half-millennium of our established 1351-1400 period for <Eys>.

Note that there is a cut-&-paste typo in the headmatter here: "1351-1400beck, 1143" should read just "1351-1400".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:05
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:29:14
docs check out, for the issue some may have with google books i am able to find this entry also Lucke_Von Lubeck male 04 Oct 1619, EVANGELISCH, MOERS, RHEINLAND, PRUSSIA batch number C95534-1

no conflict found


5: Francesca di Lucca -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 14, 2016 as submitted.

Checky azure and argent, a delf checky vert and Or

Badge Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:28
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:32:15
no conflicts seen

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-02 13:40:52
I'm concerned that there is nothing in the blazon that would force the alignment so neatly, to the point where this looks more like a bordure than a field with a delf.

Checky vert and Or, a bordure checky azure and argent.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 14:45:18
I believe to be a checky bordure it would need 3 rows and not the 2. If this were a bordure it would be counter-compony azure and argent.

I would leave this as a checky field rather than try and go that route though because at that point the shape of the field will really make a difference. A checky field keeps the same orientation no matter what it is put on. Counter-compony would follow the shape of the shield. Additionally checky will require this to be squares, while the bordure counter-compony does not necessarily have to be so. (See image 1 below. Device for <a href="http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=74667">Steven Phelps</a>)

Wreath can, will, and has re-blazoned if they feel necessary. See badge (image 2) for <a href="http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=14188">Isibél of Dunbegane</a> that was registered as Or, a frog vert within a bordure counter-compony argent and azure. So it may be a good idea to see if the submitter cares. It could come back on them if someone was making an item for them with their badge and only going off the blazon. Counter-compony could give a very different look than checky.

As submitted is is a little stylistically disconcerting though given the different sizes for the checky squares. That in itself is a bigger concern for me. BUT I can not find anything with a quick check that would specifically disallow it. I would suspect though given only the blazon, most heraldic artists would not replicate this particular emblazon.

Overall this is an example of a design that it is unfortunate that it is submitted on a square field.

Edit. Missed an image.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-02 14:50:33
Submitter has specifically stated this is for herald-bating, and is very specifically drawn in this manner for that reason. Despite this, I do want to make sure we cover what concerns we are able to cover prior to sending it up. In this case, as you have noted, I'm not certain it would be reproduced by this blazon.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-02 14:56:05
when consulting with this consulting herald, I suggested the attached. Which does have two sizes of checky, but makes it clear (to my eye, obviously) that this is one object layered on a field.

1: Image 1

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 18:35:26
Ah. Herald baiting. That wonderful past time.

In that case send it up as counter-compony and present it back to them , if passed, on a roundel. :-D

Other than stylistically giving me a headache, I see no issues sending it up barring conflicts. I certainly can;t find a reason for it to not be registerable.

But the original point before I digressed is I don't believe it is a bordure checky. Either a checky field or a bordure counter-compony.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-08-02 18:41:42
Consulting Herald here: Submitter would be open to the redraw from Bordure if it makes the intent of checky field with delf checky on top more clear.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 19:31:05
I believe that would make it more clear as to intent and avoid the bordure counter-company confusion.

Additionally can you clarify if they want to limit the number of boxes to none or was that just the way it is drawn? As drawn the delf would be blazoned as checky of nine vert and Or.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-08-02 19:49:57
That is the way it was drawn. Submitter liked the checky of nine look, though.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 20:21:57
The name was registered January 2017.
This risks a return under SENA A.2.C.1. "for the use of post-1600 art techniques"
SENA A.3.F.3. Obtrusively Modern design and
SENA A.2.C.2. Identifiability: Elements must be drawn to be identifiable.
It looks like modern art and a design to create a confusing optical illusion effect. The confusing visual effect of both the field and primary charge being checky makes the delf difficult to identify on first sight. Period style allows all charges to be rapidly and clearly identified. It is a judgement Wreath will have to make at Laurel level.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-10 15:27:33
updated art for consideration?

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Thomas de Groet at 2017-08-10 17:39:33
Submitter approves of the redraw.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-10 18:17:40
This still has the problem under SENA of identifiabiliy of charges. Is this an non-period checky field, a checky delf on a checky field, a checky field with a strange checky bordure, or one of the period gameboards listed below with a checky field? Visual confusion and difficulty of blazon is an indication of non-period style.

http://mistholme.com/?s=board

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-10 18:29:54
Thoughts on tweaks for making this more clear?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-10 20:41:12
The only thing I can think of is to check precedents under SENA and period rolls for checky armory. That can be quite time consuming. The submission is pleasing artwork to look at but I have some doubts it will get registered.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-02 15:04:06
I do see the counter-compony argument/suggestion as valid, especially given the reblazon of the badge you posted.

Checky vert and Or, a bordure counter-compony azure and argent.


6: Gabriel of Maccuswell -New Device Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2001, via the East.

Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure vert

Old Item: Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure embattled vert, to be retained as a badge.

Name registered March of 2001, via the East

"Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure embattled vert" was registered by the submitter on the 06-2006 LoAR

Previous submittal: "http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=539"

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:43
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:34:57
currious i found Gabriel of Maccuswell The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 2006 (via the East): Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure embattled vert. now im assuming that the embattled bordure being 1, and the tincture being the 2nd? if so clear if not barely

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-26 10:42:44
The note above says he would like to retain the item you cited as a badge. The only difference is the bordure.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-02 14:57:02
Submitters are permitted to conflict with themselves.

No conflicts found.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-04 11:16:22
Unsurprisingly, no conflicts found.


7: Jakob Bechstein -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture (14th century German) most important.

Herald: Gunnvor Selfraharr

Jakob - Bahlow p 248

Bechstein - Bahlow p 33

Dictionary of German Names by Hans Bahlow, second edition

Bahlow, Hans. Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt is a no photocopy book

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 17:41:53
Can't see the documentation. Don't believe anything registered conflicts.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-09 07:16:40
I don't have the books. Jakob is dated to 1581 in Medieval German Given Names from Silesia by Talan Gwynek. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/bahlow_v.htm

Anna Maria Bechstein born 03 Jul 1580, christened at SCHWAEBISCH HALL, JAGSTKREIS, WUE. Batch C92335-1. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NCFM-521

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 16:50:44
It doesn't help that the page numbers aren't close. Bahlow, s.n. Jakob (p. 260 in my edition), no dated examples. Bahlow, s.n. Bechstein (p. 57 here) has dated examples from 1216 on. Bahlow generally sucks for given names; the IGI data is far better evidence to take forward.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:39:03
docs check out, no conflict found


8: Lucius Hooper -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Lukas Weber(8/2010)

Or, a bear and on a chief sable three daggers Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Gunnver Silfraharr

Lucius - Family Search 1539 Lucius Nallson

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ALucius~%20%2Bsurname%3A Nallson~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AP01834-1 also Lucius Preestlay 1587 https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ALucius~%20%2Bsurname%3A preestlay~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AC00930-2

Hooper - Reaney & Wilson s.n. Hooper 1444 Ralph Hooper

https://books.google.com/books?id=5sVq7VQlNwcC&pg=PA1659&lpg=PA1659&dq=ralph+hooper+1444&source=bl&o ts=hQsQaKvFNj&sig=CPwrFWDaJbRH16R07FLV5TSJRrc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMhvCgwOHUAhXl6oMKHX_8Be8Q6AEIO DAC#v=onepage&q=ralph%20hooper%201444&f=false

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:12:02
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:17:35
I don't believe there are any conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:20:02
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:42:45
docs check no conflict found

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:27:01
Looks clear to me.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 17:52:04
I do not believe our bears have a default posture, despite what I find an inexplicable comment at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/04/16-04lar.html#41, Valgerðr inn rosti, regarding a chevron ... between a sword fesswise and a bear salient, declaring that "the fesswise orientation of the sword must be described independently from the default orientation of the bear".*

In any case, here we need:

Or, a bear sejant erect and on a chief sable three daggers Or
----------------------
* [Much later:] The explanation is that the bear is oriented--not postured--palewise. Theoretically, Valgerðr's bear could be, say, salient fesswise, ugly and unlikely as that is.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:20:45
Agree.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:41:10
i concur with the different blazon no conflict found

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-04 11:19:10
I concur with the reblazon and no conflicts found.


9: Lykos Lakedaimonios -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister azure and gules, on a bend sinister Or a three headed wolf with a snake for a tail sailent cortorney sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Greek) most important.
Culture (Greek) most important.
Meaning (wolf) most important.

Herald: Rebekah Aleyn djallen22@gmail.com Canton of Haldtre, Wiesenfeuer

Lykos - "Classical Mythology:The Basics" https://books.google.com/books?id=rWMRDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT18&lpg=PT18&dq=lykos+in+greek+mythology&source=b l&ots=AAklT__5-2&sig=cDh1eulG5rpv_UD2iPV2n_fvHcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr8sOOnNrUAhUG6YMKHWA7AeoQ6A EIgQEwEg#v=onepage&q=lykos%20in%20greek%20mythology&f=false

Lakedaimonios - "Athenian Generals: Military Authority in the Classical Period" by Debra Hamel. https://books.google.com/books?id=bDTCbh7wmr0C&pg=PA189&dq=lakedaimonios&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivr6O pn9rUAhWK8YMKHQtYCh8Q6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=lakedaimonios&f=false

Name Comments:

Ursula Georges (Palimpsest) at 2017-07-07 11:49:03
Lykos (Λύκος) is an excellent Greek name; it appears 328 times in volumes 1-5a of the LGPN.

I found no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 18:35:18
Documentation for the byname <Lakedaimonia> as period was offered at http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=14650 for Thaleia Lakedaimonia. However, the link there failed me.

On registering it at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/01/11-01lar.html, Laurel told Thaleia that "the byname actually refers to the city, Lakedaemon, rather than the kingdom. The latter byname would be Lakaina." Submitter should be asked if he wants to be "the Spartan" and instead submit <Lykos Laikainos> or he prefers being "the man from Lakedaemon" as at present.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:21:30
Docs check out. If I read SENA correctly, unmarked patronymics are OK in Greek names.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:14:25
The article linked from there, followed further to http://heraldry.sca.org/names/byzantine/structures.html#masculine_names, has the example:

Joannes Doukas Laskaris
where ... Doukas indicates that either his mother, one of his grandparents, or one of his great-grandparents was a Doukai.
That seems to show change of case for m/patronymics.

However, the byname here is instead a locative in the same pattern as the registered (see above) Thaleia Lakedaimonia.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:03:14
The Doukai are a tribe, so Doukas is "of the Doukai".

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:12:47
Lakedaimonios <in Greek, which I don't have the patience to write out like Ursula did> is also found in Volume 1 at LGPN, so it's okay as a given name. SENA totally punts to Bardas Xiphias' article for structure, where he says patronymics were rare and then doesn't talk about them any more. I have a recollection that Dad's name needs to be genitive, so for this to be Lykos, son of Lakedaimónios, it should be Lykos Lakedaimóniou. I think.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-24 18:15:19
There is no indication that submitter intends a patronymic! The first mention of the idea came from Green Anchor, not submitter, and my response to him was meant to be "But it's not in the genitive, which it looks like patronymics have to be, so instead consider it's a locative, same as with Thaleia."

I am sorry that I seem not to have been clear.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 00:27:21
Okay... the documentation provided supported it as a given name, and I don't think given-given is something that we'd expect in Greek. There needs to be a statement that he wants a placename, and support that it is correctly formed as a placemane.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-03 17:51:18
I note again that Laurel accepted the feminine as a locative. For the link, see my first comment on this item.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 20:06:56
Yes, it was underwhelming. If it doesn't convince me, I don't expect it to convince anyone else, even if it convinced them the last time. Plus, because the word for country in Greek is feminine, a lot of placenames default to feminine, so where we normally assume the masculine and have to prove the feminine, this happens to be backwards. Hey, we're currently grinding out a LoPAD over something that was registered the last time without comment. It happens. How about this:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, s.v. Λακεδαίμων (λα^κεδαίμ-ων, LSJ *lakedai/mwn)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=*lakedai/mwn

"regul. Adj. Λακεδαιμόνιος , α, ον, of persons"

That's a scholarly source declaring that the submitted form is the expected masculine adjectival form for someone who lives in Lacedaemon, i.e., a Spartan.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-04 09:40:34
LoPAD?

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:36:31
Device looks clear of conflict; however, that bend sinister needs to go on a diet.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 18:41:05
Perhaps just a body-shaper, what my late womenfolk called a "girdle", would suffice?

Seriously, this bend sinister is charged and not between other charges, so conceding it is too wide, it is not scandalously so. I believe it is registerable with an artist's note, but that is foolish to rely on; I'd advise submitter to redraw rather than spend several months waiting to see if I'm wrong.

To establish a maximum, submitter and/or his artist should compare the somewhat less broad bends (sinister) on the devices shown below. The first, for Órlaidh an Einigh from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=22840, was registered with an artist's note to draw the bend narrower. The rest were passed or returned without such comment: Marrin von Waldburg from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=13210, Lotharius qui et Segimundus from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=8939, and John of Widcombe (returned for conflict) from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=9095.

I urge not just shrinking the wolf but stretching him to occupy most of the new bend sinister's length, like Marrin's ounce below, as the best, and very period, tactic.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Konstantia Kaloethina (Greek Fire) at 2017-07-11 18:15:18
I agree with Sable Crane.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:02:42
Fixing typos, etc.:

Per bend sinister azure and gules, on a bend sinister Or a three-headed wolf tailed of a snake salient contourny palewise sable

One could also blazon passant, as Marrin's ounce above is; however, the rearmost legs of both are totally wrong for that. Even more blatantly than Marrin's beast this wolf has been posed salient as though alone on a device, then picked up and dropped on the ordinary instead of having his lengthwise axis turned to match the bend sinister's axis. (Note that Orlaidh's cats are blazoned sejant addorsed palewise.) Perhaps while solving the other problems, the artist can produce a beast correctly passant along the bend, a far more period arrangement?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:04:17
At proper viewing distance the snake's head is indistinguishable from a lion-style tuft.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:22:21
"contourny" I'd like to see the bend no more than about 2/3 of its present width and the monster elongated to fill its space as nearly as possible. No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:46:20
was a three headed wolf used in heraldry if so no conflicts found

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-26 11:20:47
Certainly acceptable in our heraldry. Over the years, we've registered three dozen three-headed beasts (wolves, dragons and a wyvern, dogs and hounds) and plants (mostly thistles, one wheat stalk). Although the wolves aren't recent, the pattern is consistent.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 13:30:59
I would question if this beast is truly salient. Says Parker, "both the hind paws are resting on the ground, and both the fore-paws are drawn as if level with each other."

Generally the fore-paws would be fairly level and follow the same plane. To me these do not really seem to do that. Additionally I would not exactly call it rampant either. I honestly am not sure what I would call the posture which to me may mean it needs a redraw.

See the below from Fox-Davies for reference. Wolf rampant, salient, courant.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-02 15:05:23
Has Obelisk considered my blazon above?

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 19:44:05
Yes I have. I absolutely agree with it if the wolf is considered salient. Or rather salient contourny palewise in this instance.

My question is whether this is really drawn as such. It does not have the leg positioning both fore and hind that I would expect in such a beast,. Even considering the mass of heads causes the legs to shift around.

To me is seems somewhere between salient contourny palewise and rampant contourny. Especially with the slanting the beast would get naturally by being placed on the bend.

rotate the image 45 degrees tot eh left and tell me what you think.

1: Image 1

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-03 12:14:41
with rotation, I'd call this rampant: 1 down and 3 jazz hands.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-03 17:14:16
There we go, Bordure!

Obelisk, I believe that, despite models like Fox-Davies', we've let almost any arrangement with two on the floor and two in the air pass as salient. Which I rather think is consistent with period usage.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-04 10:06:30
I can live with either going up. Especially since Wreath will reblazon as he sees fit. The the mass of heads just makes it look odd all around to me in either position.

So I will leave it to Bordure to make the final call of salient contourny palewise or rampant contourny.

As for the images, I just pulled Fox-Davies as they were conveniently online and a good comparison of wolves drawn in the same style.

This is a time I wish I still had access to commentary on LoIs. There are a few I would really like to see what they said. For instance.

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=63629 - Arwen Silvana
was submitted as "Azure, a wolf salient contourny sustaining a spiked mace, an orle argent" and registered as "Azure, a wolf statant erect contourny maintaining a spiked mace, an orle argent."

I am wondering if the rear legs were a factor there as they (as in this case) are not really indicative of leaping.

I went through and sampled some of the recent salient submissions in OSCAR and below are some examples.

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=61118 - Rahil Isfahani<
http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=7632 - Caelan MacRob
http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=22237 - Conall O'Coindealbhain
http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=70517 - Conchobar mac Óengusa

There are others as well, but in all the ones I sampled that were registered as salient the arms are more inline with each other and the rear feet closer together, though there was a wider spread of variance there.

Sorry, just trying to explain myself a little better and not really hammer my point or be argumentative. :-D I just saw this as a concern and raised it to see if others had any concern as well. I have done so and appear to be the only one concerned so I am OK to let it go up as salient.

I am OK with being mistaken. I am the first to admit my eye may be a little rusty and I am not as up on current precedent and college leanings as I used to be.

Edit. Seems to not have liked image2. Trying again.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-04 22:04:33
I'm hoping that the width of the bend sinister will be found excessive enough to return at Kingdom, so that for the resubmission submitter can be counseled to decide whether he actually wants a palewise beast, would prefer something more usual, or what.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-03 07:05:07
edit. Deleted text to avoid confusion for oddly duplicated response. Sorry.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 21:00:49
No conflict found.


10: Masina da Ferrara -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2015, via Ansteorra.

Azure ermined Or, a lion of St Mark passant guardant Or and a point pointed ployee argent

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:18:52
In the OSCAR era we have registered a St. Mark's lion without a book and returned one of the same. Another with a book has had it blazoned. One shown with a book, pre-OSCAR, at http://wharrow.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?PersonID=1751, did not get it blazoned. The halo (being as I think default for a saint's avatar) has only once been mentioned.

We've used ployee just once, in 1973, and gone with ployé since.

So my best proposal:

Azure ermined Or, a lion of Saint Mark passant guardant maintaining beneath its forepaw an open book Or, a point pointed ployé argent

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 23:14:55
Blazon suggestion based on Venice: "Azure ermined, a lion of St. Mark passant guardant forepaw raised maintaining a book Or and a point pointed argent."

No conflict found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 00:01:23
Let's add the "and" from the O&A's Venice blazon, all in italics in a separate paragraph so it's harder to miss on the XLoI (which I've seen happen for the most recent LoAR):

Azure ermined, a lion of St. Mark passant guardant forepaw raised and maintaining a book Or and a point pointed argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:26:07
The ermine-spotting in the colored version is indistinguishable from estencely. In both the b&w and color-corrected, I'm seeing rough-hewn arrow heads. The usual instruction, "larger and fewer", should be applied before the XLoI so we don't embarrass ourselves by having Laurel say it from Wreath--or worse yet, return the submission for unidentifiability.

But not, as I look again, all that many fewer. They should end up a bit closer together upon enlargement.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:23:10
Our standard spelling is "ployé". Would like to see the tails on the ermine spots drawn larger than their pins. That would make them more readily identifiable. Reminiscent of the arms of Venice, but clear. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:18:08
I thank Green Anchor for giving me a new sense for a vocabulary item, "pin". I hope he will extend the favor by noting a source for that.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 19:54:45
I can't. I recall having read somewhere that the "ermine spot" represents an ermine tail pinned onto something, and that the three dots are the stylized form of the pin. Since Eyas and Saker now own all my heraldry books, I can't look that up.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 23:36:03
Thank you for the answer anyway.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-26 11:23:31
I too believe better proportion in the spots would help. Currently, as I indicate above, I believe they should be returned as unidentifiable.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-02 13:43:35
unless the submitter can prove that this depiction of an ermine spot is period.

I haven't been able to find it, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-05 23:16:15
Suggested ermine spots

1: Image 1

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-05 23:28:23
This isn't close to the number and styles that can be found with a simple Google search. I'm hoping we can get a redraw.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 00:03:19
Such as the ever-dependable http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/Stars/Heraldry_SVG_Images/Ermine_Spots.htm which gives you date and ethnicity when you point at one.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 06:44:19
Those are just the ones Batonvert found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:48:51
no conflict seen


11: Matteo de Genua -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Máté Czygan(2/2013), Mattis Ammann (5/2015)

Gules, two dragons combatant argent and in chief a sun in his splendor Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Late period italian) most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Grimolfr Einarsson grimolfr@gmail.com Wiesenfeuer

Matteo - found in "Milanese Notaries 1396-1635" by Maridonna Benvenuti.

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries/

de Genua - genua is listed in "Italia:Mercator Place Names in 1554" by Maridonna Benvenuti.

https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/mercator.html

The formation of locative bynames via use of the preposition "de" is described in "15th Century Italian Men's Names" by Brian Scott (Talan Gwynek) http://heraldry.sca.org/names/italian15m.html

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 08:03:00
Docs check out. Talan's article says, "It's noticeable that da is the normal locative pronoun, but see also the names Ruberto di Girardin da Lendenara and Nicolò de Girardin de Lendenara: here we see normal Italian usage in the first name and substitution of de for *both* prepositions in the second." There is an example of `Jacomo de Piamonti.' Piamonte (Piedmont) is a region in Western Italy.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:40:37
And Genoa (Modern English) is in Liguria, the next region south from the Piedmont.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:19:49
But on consideration, <de Piamonti> is most likely to be used of someone no longer resident in the Piedmont.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:17:20
And if he moves to England, he'll be Matthew Janeway. Seriously.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 06:47:51
The only name close to this is Matteo Genovese registered in March of 2016 (via the East).

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:19:43
Hey, Maridonna, is your mercator article from maps written in Latin? Because I have only seen the spelling Genua in late period in Latin, when the vernacular has gone to Genoa. So "de Genua" is totally correct, but I think he'd want "da Genoa." Maybe?

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-06 05:26:14
Some names are written in Latin. I forgot to hit the "Notify me..." link for this name.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-08-06 07:40:36
In case he does want da Genoa - Googlebook "Annali Con La Loro Copiosa Tavola della Eccelsa et Illustrissima Republi.Genoa, & fideli..." Agostino Giustiniani, 1537, result #15, il Podesta da Genoa. See image. https://books.google.com/books?id=l7VTAAAAcAAJ&pg=PP12&dq=%22da+Genoa%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwid4ua Qv8LVAhVF4oMKHRf7B2AQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22da%20Genoa%22&f=false

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:25:38
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:52:07
docs check out, no conflict found

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 00:08:37
Minimally clear of Brand Regenald's badge, Jun 1998, Gules, two dragons combattant and a base rayonny Or by type and arrangement of secondary charges.

There may be actual conflicts, but the above is the one I had to go hunting regarding, finally discovering that "posture" ≠ "arrangement".

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 06:59:06
One DC for change of type of secondary from sun to base. Second DC for change of primary dragon tincture from argent to Or.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-06 16:51:12
Totally missed that Brand's dragons are indeed Or. But don't we get a 3rd DC for arrangement? Theoretically, this sun could be in base.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:26:19
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:56:54
mmm have to concure about the close clearance of the badge, no conflicts found but that was close


12: Quiteria de Onis -Resub Appeal of Kingdom Return of Name & New Device

Or, in chief a dragon passant wings addorsed elevated sable breathing flames and in base two koi embowed counter-embowed gules marked argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (Spanish) most important.

Quiteria - 3 examples listed. "16th Century Spanish Names" by Elsbeth Ann Roth

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/fem-given-freq.html

de Onis - 2 examples of this surname. "16th Century Spanish Names" by Elsbeth Ann Roth

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/locatives-freq.html

Previous submittal: "https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=52465"

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 15:03:42
Docs check out. Quiteria is dated to 1560, 1571 and 1574. de Onis is dated to 1560.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:15:19
I don't believe there are any conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:26:57
Docs check out, but the reference for the surname spells it "de Onís".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:28:03
We are told at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/09/13-09lar.html#82, Juanica Montañes, that "Many period Spanish orthographies ... do not include accents; in fact, they are not used systematically until well past the end of our period."

So apparently, as for old Norse, our registrations can omit them throughout. Or, as at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/03/15-03lar.html#254, Gabriel Galán de Córdoba, include them throughout.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:58:57
no conflict found

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 07:39:36
Like Bullwinkle, I am confused. No trace of any prior activity for Quiteria de Onis was found. Why and when was this name returned originally? What are the grounds for appealing that return? Is this a second appeal? What happened to the first appeal? Was it withdrawn or lost?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-08-06 08:58:21
Looks like this was miscategorized. Original submission was <Cinta Falieri>, but was withdrawn after the internal letter in 2015, as the submitter wanted "sin-da" and the name submitted does not bear that sound.

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-07 16:27:29
the argent markings on the koi are very small.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:47:52
If they were meant to convey some symbol--a rune, a constellation, or the like--they'd be too small. But as they seem to be only decoration, I believe they're big enough. I can see them from proper viewing distance.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:33:24
Though I admit that, at any viewing distance other than peering closely, my perception turns them Or like the field. If others' perceptions agree, does that make them returnable? Or just unblazonable?

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-06 11:06:13
This is not a new device but a resubmission at Kingdom with a completely new design. It matters when money is collected. This one looks old enough that kingdom policy allows a new fee but charging for a free resubmission causes headaches.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:45:24
Needs a conjunction, a reversal, and a repetition:

Or, in chief a dragon passant wings elevated and addorsed sable breathing flames gules and in base two koi embowed counter-embowed gules marked argent

I rather think that the blazon as submitted would make the flames, too, be marked argent, which they are not.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 20:30:05
Unfortunately I feel I must disagree with you on one point. I feel the first gules is not needed and the tincture for the flames would be gotten from the koi body and not the markings in this instance.

I do concur with the remainder of the changes.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-03 17:40:48
Hmmm. Something like "Or, a dragon within a bordure gules bezanty" definitely makes the dragon bezanty. I would not expect "marked" to work differently. Consider:

Franziska Gerdrudis Kesselheim's device, Nov 2001, Gules, a pall inverted Or between two unicorns combattant argent and a natural tiger couchant argent marked sable, and Isadora Athinai's, Oct 1987, Per bend sinister azure and vert, a pile inverted bendwise sinister wavy between a crescent argent and a serpent erect, tail nowed, argent, marked sable, in each case with "argent" repeated,

Gabrielle von Friedrichsthal's, Aug 2005, Per chevron inverted purpure and sable, a chevron inverted between a garb Or and two bees Or marked sable, and Domenico Forestani's, Jan 2006, Per chevron sable and vert, a chevron between two compass stars Or and a natural tiger rampant Or marked sable, with "Or" repeated,

and Anna Ophelia Holloway's, Apr 2007, reblazoned Per bend sinister Or and argent, a Javanese peacock feather bendwise sinister and a Javanese peacock contourny, tail spread, vert marked proper, where the marking surely applies as well to the separated feathers.

In fairness, however, consider also Park of Vatavia's, Apr 2002, Or, a bend sinister potenty counter-potenty between a fleur-de-lys and a natural tiger rampant gules marked argent, and Lukina Rasinina's, Feb 2012, Per chevron azure and vert, a chevron between two scimitars in saltire and a natural leopard's face argent marked sable. In the OSCAR-era latter case, the scimitars are unmarked.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-04 11:14:19
Bezanty (or other semy) is a field treatment but marked is not. I guess to my mind the question would fall to whether or not the earlier instance can also be marked as in your case of Anna Ophelia Holloway and the level of confusion it might clear up to leave it in. I have no real objection to leaving it in as you proposed in your blazon.

Of course I also was wondering if the markings even really needed to be blazoned in this instance. I have seen instances where some markings are left out of the blazon as not really significant enough to include.

Consider Andrewe Baldwyn, reg 3-2014 "(Fieldless) A fox sejant, dexter forepaw raised per bend azure, marked argent,and argent" was changed to " (Fieldless) A fox sejant dexter forepaw raised per bend azure and argent." where the tail tip marking was visually much more impactful.

Unfortunately I don't have the time available at the moment to really go through and look at registered blazons vs submitted blazons where marked may have been removed to see how the college leans in that instance.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-04 18:48:49
Bezanty is not a field treatment so I doubt it applys to this armory.

From the CoA Glossary - Semy.
"When placed on another charge, strewn charges are considered a tertiary charge group. Strewn charges are not considered a field treatment."

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-05 08:54:13
You are of course correct (as is good Michael). I will go ahead and concede this point any slink off in shame.

I should have known this regarding semy, and likely did at one point, but for some reason in the years I have been mostly dormant this seems to have shifted in my mind. Not sure when or why that happened.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:27:48
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 10:57:51
no conflicts seen


13: Roland Ussier -Resub Name Change

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Roland Grey(3/2004), Rouland Carre (3/1987)

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in September of 2014, via Caid.

Old Item: Ásbjorn Solveigarson, to be released.
No major changes.
Meaning most important.

herald@steppes.ansteorra.org

Previous Name: Ásbjorn Solveigarson registered in the Kingdom of Caid

"Ásbjorn Solveigarson|201409C|N||(regid:104401)(Full form: Ásbjǫrn Sǫlveigarson)"

Roland - http://oanda.sca.org/oanda.db

Ussier - https://www.google.com/search?q=heraldry.sca.org%2Fnames%2Fparisbynames.html+(Uissier)+www.anglo-norman.net%2F+(Ussier)+Occupation&rlz=1C1CHWA_enUS667US667&oq=heraldry.sca.org%2Fnames%2Fparisbynames.html+(Uissier)+www.anglo-norman.net%2F+(Ussier)+Occupation&aqs=chrome..69i58j69i57.1550j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:45:36
The link for the name documentation is hopefully not what was intended. parishes.html French: Rolland - Masculine Names from Artois, 1601, Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/1601masc.html

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 14:57:12
Uissier - "Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role of Paris" by Colm Dubh shows masculine uissier 7 instances, doorman; door maker. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/parisbynames.html

Roland is found in "Names from 13th- and 14th-Century Latin Records from Gascony" by Sara L. Uckelman showing Roland with 1 instance and dated to 1283-86. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/earlygasconlatin.html
I'm not sure about the rest of that long url that mentions Ussier.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:52:37
The long URL is a search that leads to Colm Dubh's "Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role [sic] of Paris" that Lady Maridonna cites.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 06:46:42
Though the article doesn't mention Ussier only Uissier.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 14:48:58
So between them submitter and other commenters have documented only

<Roland Uissier>

I would consider that change minor, but both prudence and courtesy recommend checking with submitter before making it.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-09 07:26:03
I agree with contacting the submitter. :)

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-26 14:58:41
From the original forms, it looks like

http://www.anglo-norman.net/gate/index.shtml?session=SSGB20104T1501098785

was meant to be included. I do not know if this helps, but do see that it includes <Ussier>.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-26 19:12:09
It helps!

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:33:09
I cannot find this spelling (Ussier) as a surname in even modern sources. Submitter might like to know that according to the DMF, the overwhelming most common spelling was with an H, Huissier. http://atilf.atilf.fr/scripts/dmfAAA.exe?LEM=HUISSIER1;MENU=menu_dmf;AFFICHAGE=2;ISIS=isis_dmf2015.t xt;MENU=menu_recherche_dictionnaire;OUVRIR_MENU=1;ONGLET=dmf2015;OO1=2;OO2=1;s=s001725e8;LANGUE=FR; XMODE=STELLa;FERMER

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-24 18:39:39
Thank you, Mistress Adelaide!

Could you tell us where the dictionary's list of abbreviations is? (E.g., T-L in the item.)

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 10:19:54
They don't make it easy.

http://atilf.atilf.fr/gsouvay/scripts/dect.exe?CRITERE=PR_ABR;OUVRIR_MENU=MENU_ACCUEIL;s=s141208f8;I SIS=isis_dect.txt;s=s141208f8;;LANGUE=EN;ISIS=isis_dect.txt

T-L is Tobler-Lommatzsch altfranzösisches Wörterbuch. (You can see why they say T-L!) All the references across the top are dictionaries, and it is usually etymological information more than actual citations. I don't trust word forms and spellings unless I can see the actual French text, because I can tell even from a snippet what sorts of orthographical choices they are making. You can also see that T-L is grayed out, because it is not available online, though you can download it here: http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/lingrom/stein/tl/downloads.htm

If you follow the FEW link (also long and German) for ostium, you'll get much the same info: https://apps.atilf.fr/lecteurFEW/lire/70/438?DMF

There are a couple of early spellings with U, including uisserain dated ca. 1180. From what I glean from the citations, it appears that the word started with O/U initially (from Latin ostium), then went exclusively to H, then came back around to U forms. It looks like for the period we'd expect the occupational ending -ier it was exclusively spelled with H. Roland is an early enough name that if he's heart set on the U, Roland Uisserain is a possibility.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-03 18:16:11
Thank you! (Yes, of course all the preliminary matter should be listed under "Welcome". It's the first segment!)

Or, given Dromond's R&W discovery cited below, we can go with the submitted <Roland Ussier>.

[Later:] But see Mistress Adelaide's follow-ups below.

Drusticc inigena Eddarrnonn (Dromond) at 2017-07-31 07:06:44
R&W has a "Richard Ussier", s.n. Usher (p.360).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-31 07:52:04
Which is a no-photocopy source.

And while it's not directly dated there, it's first on the list, preceding an item from 1243, so presumably early and easily within 500 years of Lady Maridonna's <Roland> doc.

Since the College requires only one case, and Bordure's item also looks valid, submitter seems solid for <Roland Ussier>, with Dromond's making it wholly English.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-03 21:55:46
Good news, bad news, good news, and I have run out of care.

The citation Hy 3 Colch (Ess) means, in R&Wese, in the reign of Henry III, from the Cartularium Monasterii Sancti Johannis Baptiste de Colecestria (2 vols, Roxburghe Club, 1897). Henry III reigned from 1216-1272. So that should mean the name was found sometime between 1216 and 1272. But probably not, because I found the book, and it's entirely in Latin, and I searched every blessed Ricardo and did not find our boy. It's possible that he is listed under ostia or some other Latin word for doorkeep, but in that case, Ussier would be a reconstruction, which isn't like R&W. Everything is nice and formal; my favorite was Ricardo de Bumstede, obviously an ancestor of Dagwood.

So I found The Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland (Hanks/Coates/McClure) and it has exactly the same citation, only it says 1216-1272 in Colchester Court Rolls. Now, Colchester Court Rolls is also a source used by R&W, abbreviated ColchCt rather than Colch, so it's possible that the editor fat-fingered the source. Except the published Court Rolls don't start until 1310. So R&W might be wrong, but Hanks and co. are almost certainly.

So, where our poor Richard Ussier came from, I don't know, but just cite the name as from the reign of Henry III per R&W and let the error fall on their heads.

And yes, I go down rabbit holes like this all the time. Never know what you'll find.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-08-04 13:24:31
I've been back looking at every obscure case for Ricardus I can think of, and I still can't find him, though I've found more ordinary looking surnames (Wade, e.g.) such that Ussier could be in there with a corrupted given name and I just haven't seen it.

I'm kind of in love with this document, though. For my sins, I may have to write an article. Fabulous names, fabulous spellings! Sturwde (Steward), Porteioie (Portjoy), Peltindune (no idea), Petitsire, and the awesome Taleandwel (tall and well?).


14: Roric Rainerson -New Name & New Device

Gules, an elk rampant contourney and on a chief Or, three valknuts sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.

Roric - http://opendomesday.org/name/473150/roric/ Lord in 1086

Wattisfield, Blackburn, Suffolk

Rainer - http://opendomesday.org/name/407650/rainer/

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 09:47:30
Docs check out. Additional docs for Rainer - R&W, s.n. Rayner, et.al. shows Richardus filius Rainer in 1148. For Roric, Academy of St. Gabriel report 2308, url http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2308+0

From the report: You asked whether <Roderick Hunter> is an appropriate name for a period Englishman…The name ultimately derives from the early Germanic common ancestor of a group of names in several Germanic languages, e.g. <Roderich> in German, <Hro/ðri/kr> and <Hrœrekr> in Old Norse, <Ro|rik> in Old Danish [2, 3, 4]... The name passed into Old French in a form something like <Roric> [5], but if it travelled to England with the Normans, it was very rare and dropped out of use very early [6, 14].
Footnote for Roric . [6] Forssner, Thorvald, _Continental-Germanic Personal Names in England in Old and Middle English Times_ (Uppsala: K.W. Appelbergs Boktryckeri, 1916), s.n. Roricus. He notes a Latinized example <Roricus> in Suffolk , but gives no date.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:03:18
I did not find any conflicts.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:33:58
I did not find any conflicts.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:34:32
Computer refreshing accidentally double posted. Apologies.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 02:41:51
R&W sn. Rayner has:
Ricardus filius Rainer 1148

SENA Appendix A says that Middle English (which Appendix C seems to date to after 1100) that "Marked patronymics may use Fitz X or Xson; women may use these or use Xdaughter. These forms may all use the father's name unmodified; Xson and Xdaughter may also use the possessive form."
Hence, the submitted Rainerson should be fine.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:29:15
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:54:42
"Contourney" has been declared a misspelling. So:

Gules, an elk rampant contourny and on a chief Or three valknuts sable

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:59:18
Use of valknuts is a SFPP. I see no others, so it should be fine.

No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:29:44
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 11:02:10
one SFPP, no conflicts found


15: Safiyya bint Khalid ibn Hamdun -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), a flame proper winged sable

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:57:33
I do not find any conflict; however: 1. This flame is not proper. A proper flame is alternating red and gold. This is not actually blazonable, 2. The wings remind me more of a wreath than traditional wings. http://mistholme.com/dictionary/winged-charges/

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:38:21
We could try blazoning

(Fieldless) A flame gules fimbriated Or winged sable

but of course the shape is too complex for the College to permit its fimbriation.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:30:10
Agree with Sable Crane's comments.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 17:38:19
Totally agree. Saw that sable as a laurel wreath. The redraw should have more internal detailing of the wings, and they should NOT curve around to touch tips. I would think of this as a lure surmounted by a flame, which may help to get the drawing correct. Otherwise, it's kind of confusing to start thinking about where you'd put wings on a flame.


16: Safiyya bint Khalid ibn Hamdun -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), a Hand of Fatima inverted ermine

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 23:01:46
I find no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 00:13:41
Redistributing the Caps, etc.:

(Fieldless) A hand of Fatima inverted ermine

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 09:08:05
I think blacklining the hand more would be prudent so that it shows up in the final shot.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:40:33
The "color-corrected" version regularly loses the outlining of fieldless argent charges, and that does not count against submitters.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:30:38
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 11:03:46
no conflict seen

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-02 21:13:05
Clear from what I can see.


17: Simha bint Yusuf -Resub Appeal of Kingdom Return of Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2014, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), within and conjoined to a crescent argent, a fox sejant contourny proper

This item was on the 08-2014 LoAR

[Ansteorra - 2014-05-31] Vert, a wolf dormant and a chief argent estencely azure

"https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=41697"

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:44:14
Original submission of this badge on the September 2016 ILOI: https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingloi.php?kingdom=8&loi=4103

I believe this was originally returned at Kingdom because the fox (largely the tail) was in an unblazonable position. This drawing appears to have fixed that issue.

I found no conflicts.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-07-13 12:38:15
Consider the return of the badge for Wilhelm Heinrich Meyer (May 2017 via An Tir): (Fieldless) In pale a bull passant argent armed Or standing atop a feather fesswise gules, overall an arrow Or.

This badge is returned for redraw because of the partial overlap of the bull's hooves and the feather. "Standing atop" (or "standing upon" as was submitted) would have the bull standing on the top edge of the feather, a simple conjoining. Here, the charges are not simply conjoined as the hooves of the bull significantly overlap the feather. The bull is also not really overlapping the feather, as most of the charge lies on the field. This sort of overlap for conjoined charges has long been cause for return, as the relationship between the charges is not blazonable.
(An image of the badge in question is here: https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=72973)

The amount of overlap here is smaller than in Wilhelm's badge, but it is still definitely overlapping and not just a strict conjoining. I'm not sure if the amount of overlap is enough to warrant a return or just an artist's note.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-13 12:57:50
As the artist on this one, I can redraw for less overlap, but with the curve of the crescent it's difficult to avoid the appearance of a floating fox. I erred on the side of slight overlap, but it can be tweaked.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-13 14:35:29
Wilhelm's return text said "the charges are not simply conjoined as the hooves of the bull significantly overlap the feather." I'd bet that a minor overlap like this would be exactly what our Sovereigns expect for "conjoined".

Unfortunately, I don't think within and atop works. Nevertheless, the bicorporate lion below, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=34808 for the Canton of Lions End, was submitted as conjoined to the billet but registered as (Fieldless) A bicorporate lion atop a billet fesswise Or. Note that its claws overlap the billet about as clearly and as little as your fox the crescent.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:31:34
Since this is not the previously submitted badge, it's not an appeal, but a resubmission. No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 11:09:49
no conflict found


18: Søren Ranðhamarr -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Søren: http://s-gabriel.org/2166

Ranðhammar - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name.

Formation of "red-hammer" from ranðfeldr "redcloak" showing red+item, and vegghammer "wedgehammer"

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 23:31:22
Documentation shows Søren to 1403 from Denmark.

It appears the surname should be "Rauðhamarr" rather than Ranðhamarr. Rauðr is lited in Geir Bassi as meaning red on page 26 ad references "rauðrefr," meaning red-fox and "rauðfeldr," meaning red cloak, among other similar names. "vegghammar" is listed on page 29, meaning wedge hammer or mallet.

With that, docs check out.

No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:19:55
So assuming a simple typo:

<Søren Rauðhamarr>

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 03:27:34
Is the good gentle a coppersmith by any chance? :)

I'd recommend sending this up for further commentary, because I have concerns about the proposed pattern of <colour>+<hammer>.
"Tilnavne i den islandske oldlitteratur" by Finnur Jónsson has:
(http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Tilnavne:_Virksomhed_1)
dráttarhamarr [pulling's/drawing's hammer]
hnjóðhamarr [a rivetting hammer]
vegghamarr [a wall hammer, used for hammering bricks of turf together to form a wall].

These are all bynames around the hammer's use, not it's appearance as such?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-14 14:05:06
I happen to know the English surname <Redsmith> means 'coppersmith' ...

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-07-20 18:06:14
I must agree with ffride. Unless you can show a pattern of color+tool, this isn't a good Old Norse byname.

Old Norse <koparslagari> is "copper-smith" (Cleasby-Vigfusson p. 351 s.v. <koparr>).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:32:58
Looks OK with Sable Crane's correction.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 18:02:15
Okay, this needs some help, beyond what has already been given. Søren is a later-period (after 1400) Christian name, a borrowed form of Saint Severinus. It is more than 500 years, a different language, and a distinct orthography from the byname. You can't combine modern Norwegian with Old Norse.

I'm sure with some work, we can get the submitter a smith-related byname he likes, or he can have Søren, but probably not both. The Norwegian orthography that produces Søren does not contain the letter ð; thorns have mostly been dropped (Thor becomes Tor), and where edhs have not been dropped, they are spelled out (Sigurð becomes Sigurd or Sigurdh). Do we know which piece matters more to him?

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-03 10:51:20
Attempting some stunt documentation:

Soren Rod Hammar

Soren Errson. Married 24 May 1646 in Björskog, Västmanland, Sweden. Batch M40653-3 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FKN4-X4C

Melchior Rod. Married 22 Nov 1646 in Stockholm, Sweden. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL9Z-KX5G

Abram Hammar. Christened 05 Feb. 1626 in Västerås, Västmanland, Sweden. Batch C04368-4 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V7BG-85R

The only issue there is documenting a double byname in Swedish. I have found a few, but the first byname seems to always be patronymic.

I can also easily create "Red Hammer" in late period English. I just can't find "Soren" in England (it not being an English name and all).

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-08-03 10:57:36
And then I found a last name. Last name of "Soren" is found in England, but they are all I batches, so iffy.


19: Walter Thomas Longstride -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.

Herald: Brigida von Munchen

Walter - dated to 1273 Walter HR Wythecombe

Thomas - dated to 1170 Thomas Becket ibid, Used as unmarked patronymic.

Longstride - plausibly constructed name. R + W lists Longstreet, longstaff, and Longshanks on p 284 Rev Ed, Also in R + W lists Stride as a surname on p 431, Adam stte Stryd (1296) and Sarah Stride (1662 - 1664)

SENS allows for name + patronymic + description byname (mka) Thomas Belmont.

Consulted 3/13/2017 10:00 AM

Goal: Walter Thomas Longstride. We found (at) Strode [a marsh], m.n., Stroud, p 587, Victor Watts "The Cambridge Dictionary of English" Place Names, 2004

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 08:45:26
Additional docs for Longstride - "Misplaced" Names in Reaney & Wilson,Sorted By Name" byJeanne Marie Lacroix shows several other descriptive names. Langnase, 'long nose',13thc, s.n. Longenow. Longhals, [long neck], c1200, s.n. Shorthose. Longeto, 'long toe',1291-2, s.n. Longenow. Then there is Stepesoft, 'step softly', 1260, s.n. Steptoe. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/misplacednamesbyname.htm

Fleshing out Brigida's R&W docs a bit, Longstreet lists de Langstret, 1249. Longstaff, etc. shows Langstaf 1210, Longstaf 1210. Longshank, etc., has Longschaunk 1307, Longschankes, 1315, Langssonke 1334, "Long legs'. Stride, "OE stride `stride,pace', probably used of a place where one can stride a brook'.

I agree with the Herald that Longstride is a plausible descriptive byname.

This name is clear of Michael Longstride, registered in July of 1983 (via the West) and Richard Longstride registered in December of 1988 (via the West).

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 03:36:26
MED sv. strid(e) also has:
Johanna de Twystryde; Alic' de Twystryde..Rogo de Twystryde. 1296
Cecilia atte twystride. 1332

These look like toponyms to me, not descriptive bynames.
The closest parallel I see in R&W is sn. Longland Thomas de Longelond 1296
Ralph atte Longelonde 1332
John Langlandes 1458
`Dweller by the long piece of land.'

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:33:20
Agree that the name looks good.

Adelaide de Beaumont at 2017-07-24 18:21:57
Meh. Stride is already a late-period and post-period name for somebody with long legs; one of Jack the Ripper's victims was known alternately as Liz Stride and "Long Liz." (It is also used for footbridges [OED, s.v. stride], which may account for some of the locative-looking examples.) It's not a hill I want to die on, though. There are dozens of LongX names in IGI (though notably NOT Longstride), so what's one more?

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-26 11:17:46
no conflict found


20: Zahira de la Sara -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2012, via the Outlands.

Per chevron azure and argent, in chief three suns Or, in base a sea turtle vert.

Submitted through Brad Leah

No consulting herald listed

Submitted originally in June 2016 http://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=65126

ILOD says "Zahira de la Sara -New Device

Per chevron azure and argent, in chief three suns Or, in base a sea turtle vert.

Pended - waiting on forms of updated device drawing" (http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/ILoD/ilod201606.pdf)

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:21:47
I believe we can get by with

Per chevron azure and argent, three suns Or and a sea turtle vert

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:26:58
Although absolute equality of the line of division above and below the fess line has not often been insisted upon, that here is wholly below the fess line and therefore unacceptable to the College. This must be returned for redraw with a reference to heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/05/11-05cl.html, "From Wreath: Chevrons, Per Chevron, and Their Inversions".

Note that steep, shallow, and in-between angles are all correct.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:31:09
This emblazon is functionally identical to the one returned at Kingdom. Is there a copying error somewhere?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-08 11:08:20
It looks like submitter did submit a new drawing, but did not fix the issue of the not-quite-per-chevron.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-07-08 18:46:53
Can't we just blazon our way out of the issue with:

Azure, three suns 1 and 2 Or, on a point pointed argent, a sea turtle vert?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 20:43:10
It's significantly too high for a point pointed, in the explicit or implicit opinion of all five commenters on the previous submission. to which I now add my concurrence.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:34:37
This still isn't a properly drawn per chevron field division: the halves need to be approximately equal in area. The argent part is too big to be a base either. It will be hard to do a proper per chevron and still keep the four charges approximately equal in size. This isn't perfect, but it shows the direction to go.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:43:57
Our Sovereigns in the past have not insisted on precisely equal amounts of dividing line above and below the fess line. Green Anchor's revision may well be registerable.

Magnus von Lübeck at 2017-08-04 19:28:39
That one is much better. The device as submitted appears to be unblazonable.

And no conflict found.

Alasdair MacEogan (Obelisk) at 2017-08-05 09:11:19
I agree with the others on the return based on it not being either a per chevron or a point pointed. There are even examples in recent years of this exacyt issue getting returned by Wreath.

See Ælfwynn of York - http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=42927 under returns in the 9-2014 LoAR - http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/09/14-09lar.html

There are others but I see no need to belabor the point.

To be fair, and conversely, i did find this as well.

Gwenhwÿfar ferch Elena - http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=63261 under acceptances for Lochac in the 06-2016 LoAR - http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/06/16-06lar.html

In that one the point of the point pointed ploye is a little higher than this one as it actually reaches the fess line on the form and seems to have passed. That is another one I would love to see the commentary on.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-08-05 16:27:35
When material is scooped out of a (sub)ordinary, as by ployé (blazoned or not), I believe we let it go a little longer in the orthogonal direction to visually compensate.

So "The central point of a chief triangular should reach no more than a third of the way into the field" (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/04/10-04lar.html s.n. Geirúlfr mac an Gallóglaigh, returned, and elsewhere) and is passed without comment when it does reach that far, e.g., https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69076 for William Lewys and https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=56828 for Ulfger Bjarnarson. Or if submitter is lucky, even to the fess line with only an artist's note of complaint, as with https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=12478 for Geirúlfr mac an Gallóglaigh (as registered), shown below.

A standard chief extending a full third of the shield height is usually felt as pushing things, and anywhere nearer the fess line will be blazoned per fess.

1: Image 1



OSCAR counts 10 Names, 1 Name Change, 1 Household Name, 8 Devices, 1 Device Change and 5 Badges. There are a total of 26 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]


Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos