SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
LoIs
KLoIs
SENA
Prec
AH
Track
Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Ansteorra ILoI dated 2017-07-06

Greetings

This letter contains submissions from the mail, Gulf Wars, and the Ansteorran Heraldic & Scribal Symposium

1: Caedmon Cargill -New Name & New Device

Vert, on a chevron throughout between three pairs of arrows inverted saltire Or a latin cross sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Herald: Artorius Germanus Barony of Shadowlands

Caedmon - Old English given name s.n. Cadman in Reaney and Wilson

English poet d. 680 http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Caedmon-the-first-English-poet/

Cargill - legal name allowance - DL seen and attested to by Ruby Gleann Abhann [ckag], Lawton Meridies (Soran the Wayward), Habicht Herald (Calontir)

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-07-07 00:22:03
The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon database (http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/index.jsp) dates Caedmon to 731, citing Bede's Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 05:02:51
Docs check out. R&W also says that there is no evidence for the post-Conquest use of OE Caedmon but that doesn't matter since he's using the LNA.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:12:22
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:15:16
It's what's called a "proper adjective" and so (with 1 that's not out of about 400 that are) gets capped in our practice. And we need another preposition anyway. So:

Vert, on a chevron throughout between three pairs of arrows inverted in saltire Or a Latin cross sable

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:17:47
I find the heads and fletching of the arrows barely identifiable, and suspect that without having read the blazon before looking (yes, it's a bad habit) I might not do even that well with them.

Other opinions desirable.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:16:18
Agree that they heads & fletching are small on the arrows, but I thought they were still identifiable as arrows. My thought would be an artist's note, but a larger depiction wouldn't hurt.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-14 13:03:46
no conflict found, the charges are hard to distinquish on the pennsic field test but that is an artist alter

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 08:52:00
I, too, agree about the recognizability of the arrows. I would think perhaps a change to argent and redraw might help in that.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 11:23:48
I don't see any need for a tincture change.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:13:00
Agree that enlarging both the heads and the fletching of the arrows would make them more easily identifiable. Agree with Gerard's blazon tweaks. No conflicts found.


2: Caedmon Cargill -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Per bend sinister Or and sable a cross flory sable and a dragon dormant wings upraised argent

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:29:23
We use upraised only for limbs, and this isn't a default equal-armed cross. Prefer:

Per bend sinister Or and sable, a Latin cross flory sable and a dragon dormant wings elevated and addorsed argent

The elevated and can be omitted, but since it reflects the submitted wording, and the longer and shorter phrasings are equally common in the O&A, I've included it.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:30:25
Although I'm itching to feed the dragon charge chow, I cannot claim it's unrecognizably small.

Do others agree?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-07 16:08:39
I totally agree that the dragon could stand to be larger/fill the space more. He's tiny compared to the cross.

Alan Wemyss at 2017-07-09 23:20:42
For co-primary charges, the cross seems to have a fair bit more visual weight than the dragon. The dragon is plenty recognizable, but the cross is more dominant in a design where the two should be equal.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-07-14 12:39:46
no conflict found, id like to see both charges fill their respective field areas a bit more

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 08:54:45
Would the submitter perhaps agree to change the stance of the dragon in order to get it to show better against the cross and perhaps center the cross more within the space?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:18:02
Agree that both charges should be redrawn to more nearly fill their spaces. Agree with Gerard's blazon tweaks.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 13:31:44
Hope the submitter accepts THAT tweak for presenting to our Sovereigns!


3: Emma Katerina Wight -New Household Name

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2016, via Ansteorra.

House of the Golden Shrike

No major changes.
Meaning (Golden Shrike) most important.

Herald: Brigida von Munchen

- The name follows a well established pattern of inn names derived from a common name or heraldic charge combined with a color or adjective. "English Sign Names" by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada shows inn signs to have color and animal. http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/inn/#coloranimal

- Medieval English Dictionary lists golden (adj) 3)having the color of gold, golden, yellow, shining like gold http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med

- OED defines shrike as a songbird with a strongly hooked bill, often implaing its prey of smaller birds. Dated to the mid-16th century, perhaps related to the Old English seric "thrush" http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/shrike

Household Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 15:59:01
We have not registered a shrike in the O&A. However, we along with mundane heraldry have a pattern of many different birds as charges.

The definition quoted is not from the OED (which has a quite different though not contradictory entry online) but rather, as shown by the link, from the Oxford Dictionaries, called in the logo at the top of the page the "Oxford Living Dictionaries" [itals in original]. It has also been truncated and slightly altered without acknowledgment and I believe inappropriately. The defining phrase in full is, "A songbird with a strong sharply hooked bill, often impaling its prey of small birds, lizards, and insects on thorns." (Accessed today, 7/7/2017.)

The quoted etymology also has a typo in the etymon that should be corrected: "Old English scrīc `thrush'". (The OED online says "apparently representing Old English scríc, scréc (glossing Latin `turdus'), which was perhaps used generally for birds having shrill cries", but the whole entry apologizes that it "has not yet been fully updated".)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:18:36
Docs check out.


4: Eys von Lübeck -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (German) most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Colm Dubh Shire of Shadowlands

Eys - http://heraldry.sca.org/names/germmasc.html

1351-1400beck, 1143

von Lübeck - 1143 Duden Taschenbücher Geographische Namen in Deutschland

https://searchworks.stanford.edu/catalog?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_field=search&q=von+lubeck

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 05:37:35
The doc for Eys checks out. von Lübeck - Geographische Namen in Deutschland : Herkunft und Bedeutung der Namen von Ländern, Städten, Bergen und Gewässern. https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/2892468

I couldn`t search the book. Googlebooks limited preview didn't allow a snippet view when searching for only for Lübeck so I found Britannica.com Lübeck Germany, "Lübeck, in full Hansestadt Lübeck ("Hanseatic City of Lübeck"), city and major seaport, Schleswig-Holstein Land (state), northern Germany. It is located on the Trave and Wakenitz rivers, about 9 miles (14 km) from the Baltic Sea. In the Middle Ages it was one of the main commercial centres of northern Europe and the chief city of the Hanseatic League (an association of towns for the protection of trading interests)." https://www.britannica.com/place/Lubeck

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 14:45:03
Unfortunately the Britannica is not heavy on establishing period spellings for the locations it covers, which is the goal of this exercise. Nor have we seen any reason to believe the Geographische Namen does so.

However, we are spoiled for choice among early modern works that mention <Lübeck> available from GoogleBooks in full to all. Perhaps simplest to cite, because the city's name is right in the title with no very hard words, is at https://books.google.com/books?id=EtZRAAAAcAAJ, Der Kayserlichen Freyen und des Heiligen ReichsStadt Lübeck Statuta und Stadt Recht, 1586, which I make 'The Imperial Free [City] <Lübeck> of the Holy Empire Statutes and City Law'. 1586 is within the required half-millennium of our established 1351-1400 period for <Eys>.

Note that there is a cut-&-paste typo in the headmatter here: "1351-1400beck, 1143" should read just "1351-1400".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:05
Docs check out.


5: Francesca di Lucca -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 14, 2016 as submitted.

Checky azure and argent, a delf checky vert and Or

Badge Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:28
No conflicts found.


6: Gabriel of Maccuswell -New Device Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2001, via the East.

Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure vert

Old Item: Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure embattled vert, to be retained as a badge.

Name registered March of 2001, via the East

"Per bend sinister argent and sable, a winged trumpet counterchanged all within a bordure embattled vert" was registered by the submitter on the 06-2006 LoAR

Previous submittal: "http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=539"

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:19:43
No conflicts found.


7: Jakob Bechstein -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture (14th century German) most important.

Herald: Gunnvor Selfraharr

Jakob - Bahlow p 248

Bechstein - Bahlow p 33

Dictionary of German Names by Hans Bahlow, second edition

Bahlow, Hans. Deutschland Geographiche Namenwelt is a no photocopy book

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 17:41:53
Can't see the documentation. Don't believe anything registered conflicts.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-09 07:16:40
I don't have the books. Jakob is dated to 1581 in Medieval German Given Names from Silesia by Talan Gwynek. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/bahlow_v.htm

Anna Maria Bechstein born 03 Jul 1580, christened at SCHWAEBISCH HALL, JAGSTKREIS, WUE. Batch C92335-1. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NCFM-521


8: Lucius Hooper -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Lukas Weber(8/2010)

Or, a bear and on a chief sable three daggers Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Gunnver Silfraharr

Lucius - Family Search 1539 Lucius Nallson

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ALucius~%20%2Bsurname%3A Nallson~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AP01834-1 also Lucius Preestlay 1587 https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3ALucius~%20%2Bsurname%3A preestlay~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AC00930-2

Hooper - Reaney & Wilson s.n. Hooper 1444 Ralph Hooper

https://books.google.com/books?id=5sVq7VQlNwcC&pg=PA1659&lpg=PA1659&dq=ralph+hooper+1444&source=bl&o ts=hQsQaKvFNj&sig=CPwrFWDaJbRH16R07FLV5TSJRrc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMhvCgwOHUAhXl6oMKHX_8Be8Q6AEIO DAC#v=onepage&q=ralph%20hooper%201444&f=false

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:12:02
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:17:35
I don't believe there are any conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:20:02
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:27:01
Looks clear to me.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 17:52:04
I do not believe our bears have a default posture, despite what I find an inexplicable comment at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/04/16-04lar.html#41, regarding a chevron ... between a sword fesswise and a bear salient, declaring that "the fesswise orientation of the sword must be described independently from the default orientation of the bear".

In any case, here we need:

Or, a bear sejant erect and on a chief sable three daggers Or

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:20:45
Agree.


9: Lykos Lakedaimonios -New Name & New Device

Per bend sinister azure and gules, on a bend sinister Or a three headed wolf with a snake for a tail sailent cortorney sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Greek) most important.
Culture (Greek) most important.
Meaning (wolf) most important.

Herald: Rebekah Aleyn djallen22@gmail.com Canton of Haldtre, Wiesenfeuer

Lykos - "Classical Mythology:The Basics" https://books.google.com/books?id=rWMRDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT18&lpg=PT18&dq=lykos+in+greek+mythology&source=b l&ots=AAklT__5-2&sig=cDh1eulG5rpv_UD2iPV2n_fvHcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr8sOOnNrUAhUG6YMKHWA7AeoQ6A EIgQEwEg#v=onepage&q=lykos%20in%20greek%20mythology&f=false

Lakedaimonios - "Athenian Generals: Military Authority in the Classical Period" by Debra Hamel. https://books.google.com/books?id=bDTCbh7wmr0C&pg=PA189&dq=lakedaimonios&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivr6O pn9rUAhWK8YMKHQtYCh8Q6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=lakedaimonios&f=false

Name Comments:

Ursula Georges (Palimpsest) at 2017-07-07 11:49:03
Lykos (Λύκος) is an excellent Greek name; it appears 328 times in volumes 1-5a of the LGPN.

I found no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 18:35:18
Documentation for the byname <Lakedaimonia> as period was offered at http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=14650 for Thaleia Lakedaimonia. However, the link there failed me.

On registering it at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/01/11-01lar.html, Laurel told Thaleia that "the byname actually refers to the city, Lakedaemon, rather than the kingdom. The latter byname would be Lakaina." Submitter should be asked if he wants to be "the Spartan" and instead submit <Lykos Laikainos> or he prefers being "the man from Lakedaemon" as at present.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:21:30
Docs check out. If I read SENA correctly, unmarked patronymics are OK in Greek names.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:14:25
The article linked from there, followed further to http://heraldry.sca.org/names/byzantine/structures.html#masculine_names, has the example:

Joannes Doukas Laskaris
where ... Doukas indicates that either his mother, one of his grandparents, or one of his great-grandparents was a Doukai.
That seems to show change of case for m/patronymics.

However, the byname here is instead a locative in the same pattern as the registered (see above) Thaleia Lakedaimonia.

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:36:31
Device looks clear of conflict; however, that bend sinister needs to go on a diet.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 18:41:05
Perhaps just a body-shaper, what my late womenfolk called a "girdle", would suffice?

Seriously, this bend sinister is charged and not between other charges, so conceding it is too wide, it is not scandalously so. I believe it is registerable with an artist's note, but that is foolish to rely on; I'd advise submitter to redraw rather than spend several months waiting to see if I'm wrong.

To establish a maximum, submitter and/or his artist should compare the somewhat less broad bends (sinister) on the devices shown below. The first, for Órlaidh an Einigh from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=22840, was registered with an artist's note to draw the bend narrower. The rest were passed or returned without such comment: Marrin von Waldburg from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=13210, Lotharius qui et Segimundus from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=8939, and John of Widcombe (returned for conflict) from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=9095.

I urge not just shrinking the wolf but stretching him to occupy most of the new bend sinister's length, like Marrin's ounce below, as the best, and very period, tactic.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Konstantia Kaloethina (Greek Fire) at 2017-07-11 18:15:18
I agree with Sable Crane.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:02:42
Fixing typos, etc.:

Per bend sinister azure and gules, on a bend sinister Or a three-headed wolf tailed of a snake salient contourny palewise sable

One could also blazon passant, as Marrin's ounce above is; however, the rearmost legs of both are totally wrong for that. Even more blatantly than Marrin's beast this wolf has been posed salient as though alone on a device, then picked up and dropped on the ordinary instead of having his lengthwise axis turned to match the bend sinister's axis. (Note that Orlaidh's cats are blazoned sejant addorsed palewise.) Perhaps while solving the other problems, the artist can produce a beast correctly passant along the bend, a far more period arrangement?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:04:17
At proper viewing distance the snake's head is indistinguishable from a lion-style tuft.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:22:21
"contourny" I'd like to see the bend no more than about 2/3 of its present width and the monster elongated to fill its space as nearly as possible. No conflicts found.


10: Masina da Ferrara -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2015, via Ansteorra.

Azure ermined Or, a lion of St Mark passant guardant Or and a point pointed ployee argent

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:18:52
In the OSCAR era we have registered a St. Mark's lion without a book and returned one of the same. Another with a book has had it blazoned. One shown with a book, pre-OSCAR, at http://wharrow.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?PersonID=1751, did not get it blazoned. The halo (being as I think default for a saint's avatar) has only once been mentioned.

We've used ployee just once, in 1973, and gone with ployé since.

So my best proposal:

Azure ermined Or, a lion of Saint Mark passant guardant maintaining beneath its forepaw an open book Or, a point pointed ployé argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 19:26:07
The ermine-spotting in the colored version is indistinguishable from estencely. In both the b&w and color-corrected, I'm seeing rough-hewn arrow heads. The usual instruction, "larger and fewer", should be applied before the XLoI so we don't embarrass ourselves by having Laurel say it from Wreath--or worse yet, return the submission for unidentifiability.

But not, as I look again, all that many fewer. They should end up a bit closer together upon enlargement.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:23:10
Our standard spelling is "ployé". Would like to see the tails on the ermine spots drawn larger than their pins. That would make them more readily identifiable. Reminiscent of the arms of Venice, but clear. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:18:08
I thank Green Anchor for giving me a new sense for a vocabulary item, "pin". I hope he will extend the favor by noting a source for that.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 19:54:45
I can't. I recall having read somewhere that the "ermine spot" represents an ermine tail pinned onto something, and that the three dots are the stylized form of the pin. Since Eyas and Saker now own all my heraldry books, I can't look that up.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 23:36:03
Thank you for the answer anyway.


11: Matteo de Genua -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Máté Czygan(2/2013), Mattis Ammann (5/2015)

Gules, two dragons combatant argent and in chief a sun in his splendor Or

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Late period italian) most important.
Culture most important.

Herald: Grimolfr Einarsson grimolfr@gmail.com Wiesenfeuer

Matteo - found in "Milanese Notaries 1396-1635" by Maridonna Benvenuti.

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries/

de Genua - genua is listed in "Italia:Mercator Place Names in 1554" by Maridonna Benvenuti.

https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/mercator.html

The formation of locative bynames via use of the preposition "de" is described in "15th Century Italian Men's Names" by Brian Scott (Talan Gwynek) http://heraldry.sca.org/names/italian15m.html

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 08:03:00
Docs check out. Talan's article says, "It's noticeable that da is the normal locative pronoun, but see also the names Ruberto di Girardin da Lendenara and Nicolò de Girardin de Lendenara: here we see normal Italian usage in the first name and substitution of de for *both* prepositions in the second." There is an example of `Jacomo de Piamonti.' Piamonte (Piedmont) is a region in Western Italy.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:40:37
And Genoa (Modern English) is in Liguria, the next region south from the Piedmont.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:19:49
But on consideration, <de Piamonti> is most likely to be used of someone no longer resident in the Piedmont.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:25:38
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 00:08:37
Minimally clear of Brand Regenald's badge, Jun 1998, Gules, two dragons combattant and a base rayonny Or by type and arrangement of secondary charges.

There may be actual conflicts, but the above is the one I had to go hunting regarding, finally discovering that "posture" ≠ "arrangement".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:26:19
No conflicts found.


12: Quiteria de Onis -Resub Appeal of Kingdom Return of Name & New Device

Or, in chief a dragon passant wings addorsed elevated sable breathing flames and in base two koi embowed counter-embowed gules marked argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (Spanish) most important.

Quiteria - 3 examples listed. "16th Century Spanish Names" by Elsbeth Ann Roth

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/fem-given-freq.html

de Onis - 2 examples of this surname. "16th Century Spanish Names" by Elsbeth Ann Roth

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/spanish/locatives-freq.html

Previous submittal: "https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=52465"

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 15:03:42
Docs check out. Quiteria is dated to 1560, 1571 and 1574. de Onis is dated to 1560.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-18 19:15:19
I don't believe there are any conflicts.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:26:57
Docs check out, but the reference for the surname spells it "de Onís".

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:28:03
We are told at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/09/13-09lar.html#82, Juanica Montañes, that "Many period Spanish orthographies ... do not include accents; in fact, they are not used systematically until well past the end of our period."

So apparently, as for old Norse, our registrations can omit them throughout. Or, as at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/03/15-03lar.html#254, Gabriel Galán de Córdoba, include them throughout.

Device Comments:

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-07 16:27:29
the argent markings on the koi are very small.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:47:52
If they were meant to convey some symbol--a rune, a constellation, or the like--they'd be too small. But as they seem to be only decoration, I believe they're big enough. I can see them from proper viewing distance.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:33:24
Though I admit that, at any viewing distance other than peering closely, my perception turns them Or like the field. If others' perceptions agree, does that make them returnable? Or just unblazonable?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:45:24
Needs a conjunction, a reversal, and a repetition:

Or, in chief a dragon passant wings elevated and addorsed sable breathing flames gules and in base two koi embowed counter-embowed gules marked argent

I rather think that the blazon as submitted would make the flames, too, be marked argent, which they are not.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:27:48
No conflicts found.


13: Roland Ussier -Resub Name Change

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Roland Grey(3/2004), Rouland Carre (3/1987)

OSCAR NOTE: the old name was registered in September of 2014, via Caid.

Old Item: Ásbjorn Solveigarson, to be released.
No major changes.
Meaning most important.

herald@steppes.ansteorra.org

Previous Name: Ásbjorn Solveigarson registered in the Kingdom of Caid

"Ásbjorn Solveigarson|201409C|N||(regid:104401)(Full form: Ásbjǫrn Sǫlveigarson)"

Roland - http://oanda.sca.org/oanda.db

Ussier - https://www.google.com/search?q=heraldry.sca.org%2Fnames%2Fparisbynames.html+(Uissier)+www.anglo-norman.net%2F+(Ussier)+Occupation&rlz=1C1CHWA_enUS667US667&oq=heraldry.sca.org%2Fnames%2Fparisbynames.html+(Uissier)+www.anglo-norman.net%2F+(Ussier)+Occupation&aqs=chrome..69i58j69i57.1550j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:45:36
The link for the name documentation is hopefully not what was intended. parishes.html French: Rolland - Masculine Names from Artois, 1601, Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/1601masc.html

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 14:57:12
Uissier - "Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role of Paris" by Colm Dubh shows masculine uissier 7 instances, doorman; door maker. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/parisbynames.html

Roland is found in "Names from 13th- and 14th-Century Latin Records from Gascony" by Sara L. Uckelman showing Roland with 1 instance and dated to 1283-86. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/earlygasconlatin.html
I'm not sure about the rest of that long url that mentions Ussier.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:52:37
The long URL is a search that leads to Colm Dubh's "Occupational By-Names in the 1292 Tax Role [sic] of Paris" that Lady Maridonna cites.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-08 06:46:42
Though the article doesn't mention Ussier only Uissier.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 14:48:58
So between them submitter and other commenters have documented only

<Roland Uissier>

I would consider that change minor, but both prudence and courtesy recommend checking with submitter before making it.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-09 07:26:03
I agree with contacting the submitter. :)


14: Roric Rainerson -New Name & New Device

Gules, an elk rampant contourney and on a chief Or, three valknuts sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.

Roric - http://opendomesday.org/name/473150/roric/ Lord in 1086

Wattisfield, Blackburn, Suffolk

Rainer - http://opendomesday.org/name/407650/rainer/

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 09:47:30
Docs check out. Additional docs for Rainer - R&W, s.n. Rayner, et.al. shows Richardus filius Rainer in 1148. For Roric, Academy of St. Gabriel report 2308, url http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2308+0

From the report: You asked whether <Roderick Hunter> is an appropriate name for a period Englishman…The name ultimately derives from the early Germanic common ancestor of a group of names in several Germanic languages, e.g. <Roderich> in German, <Hro/ðri/kr> and <Hrœrekr> in Old Norse, <Ro|rik> in Old Danish [2, 3, 4]... The name passed into Old French in a form something like <Roric> [5], but if it travelled to England with the Normans, it was very rare and dropped out of use very early [6, 14].
Footnote for Roric . [6] Forssner, Thorvald, _Continental-Germanic Personal Names in England in Old and Middle English Times_ (Uppsala: K.W. Appelbergs Boktryckeri, 1916), s.n. Roricus. He notes a Latinized example <Roricus> in Suffolk , but gives no date.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:03:18
I did not find any conflicts.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:33:58
I did not find any conflicts.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 16:34:32
Computer refreshing accidentally double posted. Apologies.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 02:41:51
R&W sn. Rayner has:
Ricardus filius Rainer 1148

SENA Appendix A says that Middle English (which Appendix C seems to date to after 1100) that "Marked patronymics may use Fitz X or Xson; women may use these or use Xdaughter. These forms may all use the father's name unmodified; Xson and Xdaughter may also use the possessive form."
Hence, the submitted Rainerson should be fine.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:29:15
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 21:54:42
"Contourney" has been declared a misspelling. So:

Gules, an elk rampant contourny and on a chief Or three valknuts sable

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:59:18
Use of valknuts is a SFPP. I see no others, so it should be fine.

No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:29:44
No conflicts found.


15: Safiyya bint Khalid ibn Hamdun -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), a flame proper winged sable

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 22:57:33
I do not find any conflict; however: 1. This flame is not proper. A proper flame is alternating red and gold. This is not actually blazonable, 2. The wings remind me more of a wreath than traditional wings. http://mistholme.com/dictionary/winged-charges/

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:38:21
We could try blazoning

(Fieldless) A flame gules fimbriated Or winged sable

but of course the shape is too complex for the College to permit its fimbriation.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:30:10
Agree with Sable Crane's comments.


16: Safiyya bint Khalid ibn Hamdun -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), a Hand of Fatima inverted ermine

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 23:01:46
I find no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-19 00:13:41
Redistributing the Caps, etc.:

(Fieldless) A hand of Fatima inverted ermine

Corbin de Huntyngfeld (Corbus de Huntyngfeld) at 2017-07-19 09:08:05
I think blacklining the hand more would be prudent so that it shows up in the final shot.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:40:33
The "color-corrected" version regularly loses the outlining of fieldless argent charges, and that does not count against submitters.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:30:38
No conflicts found.


17: Simha bint Yusuf -Resub Appeal of Kingdom Return of Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 2014, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless), within and conjoined to a crescent argent, a fox sejant contourny proper

This item was on the 08-2014 LoAR

[Ansteorra - 2014-05-31] Vert, a wolf dormant and a chief argent estencely azure

"https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=41697"

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-10 15:44:14
Original submission of this badge on the September 2016 ILOI: https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingloi.php?kingdom=8&loi=4103

I believe this was originally returned at Kingdom because the fox (largely the tail) was in an unblazonable position. This drawing appears to have fixed that issue.

I found no conflicts.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-07-13 12:38:15
Consider the return of the badge for Wilhelm Heinrich Meyer (May 2017 via An Tir): (Fieldless) In pale a bull passant argent armed Or standing atop a feather fesswise gules, overall an arrow Or.

This badge is returned for redraw because of the partial overlap of the bull's hooves and the feather. "Standing atop" (or "standing upon" as was submitted) would have the bull standing on the top edge of the feather, a simple conjoining. Here, the charges are not simply conjoined as the hooves of the bull significantly overlap the feather. The bull is also not really overlapping the feather, as most of the charge lies on the field. This sort of overlap for conjoined charges has long been cause for return, as the relationship between the charges is not blazonable.
(An image of the badge in question is here: https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=72973)

The amount of overlap here is smaller than in Wilhelm's badge, but it is still definitely overlapping and not just a strict conjoining. I'm not sure if the amount of overlap is enough to warrant a return or just an artist's note.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-13 12:57:50
As the artist on this one, I can redraw for less overlap, but with the curve of the crescent it's difficult to avoid the appearance of a floating fox. I erred on the side of slight overlap, but it can be tweaked.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-13 14:35:29
Wilhelm's return text said "the charges are not simply conjoined as the hooves of the bull significantly overlap the feather." I'd bet that a minor overlap like this would be exactly what our Sovereigns expect for "conjoined".

Unfortunately, I don't think within and atop works. Nevertheless, the bicorporate lion below, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=34808 for the Canton of Lions End, was submitted as conjoined to the billet but registered as (Fieldless) A bicorporate lion atop a billet fesswise Or. Note that its claws overlap the billet about as clearly and as little as your fox the crescent.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:31:34
Since this is not the previously submitted badge, it's not an appeal, but a resubmission. No conflicts found.


18: Søren Ranðhamarr -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Søren: http://s-gabriel.org/2166

Ranðhammar - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name.

Formation of "red-hammer" from ranðfeldr "redcloak" showing red+item, and vegghammer "wedgehammer"

Name Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-06 23:31:22
Documentation shows Søren to 1403 from Denmark.

It appears the surname should be "Rauðhamarr" rather than Ranðhamarr. Rauðr is lited in Geir Bassi as meaning red on page 26 ad references "rauðrefr," meaning red-fox and "rauðfeldr," meaning red cloak, among other similar names. "vegghammar" is listed on page 29, meaning wedge hammer or mallet.

With that, docs check out.

No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:19:55
So assuming a simple typo:

<Søren Rauðhamarr>

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 03:27:34
Is the good gentle a coppersmith by any chance? :)

I'd recommend sending this up for further commentary, because I have concerns about the proposed pattern of <colour>+<hammer>.
"Tilnavne i den islandske oldlitteratur" by Finnur Jónsson has:
(http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Tilnavne:_Virksomhed_1)
dráttarhamarr [pulling's/drawing's hammer]
hnjóðhamarr [a rivetting hammer]
vegghamarr [a wall hammer, used for hammering bricks of turf together to form a wall].

These are all bynames around the hammer's use, not it's appearance as such?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-14 14:05:06
I happen to know the English surname <Redsmith> means 'coppersmith' ...

Gunnvor silfraharr (Orle) at 2017-07-20 18:06:14
I must agree with ffride. Unless you can show a pattern of color+tool, this isn't a good Old Norse byname.

Old Norse <koparslagari> is "copper-smith" (Cleasby-Vigfusson p. 351 s.v. <koparr>).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:32:58
Looks OK with Sable Crane's correction.


19: Walter Thomas Longstride -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound most important.

Herald: Brigida von Munchen

Walter - dated to 1273 Walter HR Wythecombe

Thomas - dated to 1170 Thomas Becket ibid, Used as unmarked patronymic.

Longstride - plausibly constructed name. R + W lists Longstreet, longstaff, and Longshanks on p 284 Rev Ed, Also in R + W lists Stride as a surname on p 431, Adam stte Stryd (1296) and Sarah Stride (1662 - 1664)

SENS allows for name + patronymic + description byname (mka) Thomas Belmont.

Consulted 3/13/2017 10:00 AM

Goal: Walter Thomas Longstride. We found (at) Strode [a marsh], m.n., Stroud, p 587, Victor Watts "The Cambridge Dictionary of English" Place Names, 2004

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-07-07 08:45:26
Additional docs for Longstride - "Misplaced" Names in Reaney & Wilson,Sorted By Name" byJeanne Marie Lacroix shows several other descriptive names. Langnase, 'long nose',13thc, s.n. Longenow. Longhals, [long neck], c1200, s.n. Shorthose. Longeto, 'long toe',1291-2, s.n. Longenow. Then there is Stepesoft, 'step softly', 1260, s.n. Steptoe. http://heraldry.sca.org/names/misplacednamesbyname.htm

Fleshing out Brigida's R&W docs a bit, Longstreet lists de Langstret, 1249. Longstaff, etc. shows Langstaf 1210, Longstaf 1210. Longshank, etc., has Longschaunk 1307, Longschankes, 1315, Langssonke 1334, "Long legs'. Stride, "OE stride `stride,pace', probably used of a place where one can stride a brook'.

I agree with the Herald that Longstride is a plausible descriptive byname.

This name is clear of Michael Longstride, registered in July of 1983 (via the West) and Richard Longstride registered in December of 1988 (via the West).

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-07-14 03:36:26
MED sv. strid(e) also has:
Johanna de Twystryde; Alic' de Twystryde..Rogo de Twystryde. 1296
Cecilia atte twystride. 1332

These look like toponyms to me, not descriptive bynames.
The closest parallel I see in R&W is sn. Longland Thomas de Longelond 1296
Ralph atte Longelonde 1332
John Langlandes 1458
`Dweller by the long piece of land.'

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:33:20
Agree that the name looks good.


20: Zahira de la Sara -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2012, via the Outlands.

Per chevron azure and argent, in chief three suns Or, in base a sea turtle vert.

Submitted through Brad Leah

No consulting herald listed

Submitted originally in June 2016 http://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=65126

ILOD says "Zahira de la Sara -New Device

Per chevron azure and argent, in chief three suns Or, in base a sea turtle vert.

Pended - waiting on forms of updated device drawing" (http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/ILoD/ilod201606.pdf)

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:21:47
I believe we can get by with

Per chevron azure and argent, three suns Or and a sea turtle vert

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:26:58
Although absolute equality of the line of division above and below the fess line has not often been insisted upon, that here is wholly below the fess line and therefore unacceptable to the College. This must be returned for redraw with a reference to heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/05/11-05cl.html, "From Wreath: Chevrons, Per Chevron, and Their Inversions".

Note that steep, shallow, and in-between angles are all correct.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-07 22:31:09
This emblazon is functionally identical to the one returned at Kingdom. Is there a copying error somewhere?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-08 11:08:20
It looks like submitter did submit a new drawing, but did not fix the issue of the not-quite-per-chevron.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-07-08 18:46:53
Can't we just blazon our way out of the issue with:

Azure, three suns 1 and 2 Or, on a point pointed argent, a sea turtle vert?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-08 20:43:10
It's significantly too high for a point pointed, in the explicit or implicit opinion of all five commenters on the previous submission. to which I now add my concurrence.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-20 11:34:37
This still isn't a properly drawn per chevron field division: the halves need to be approximately equal in area. The argent part is too big to be a base either. It will be hard to do a proper per chevron and still keep the four charges approximately equal in size. This isn't perfect, but it shows the direction to go.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-20 14:43:57
Our Sovereigns in the past have not insisted on precisely equal amounts of dividing line above and below the fess line. Green Anchor's revision may well be registerable.



OSCAR counts 10 Names, 1 Name Change, 1 Household Name, 8 Devices, 1 Device Change and 5 Badges. There are a total of 26 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]


Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos