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Northshield ILoI dated 2017-06-22

Greetings unto Honourable Lady Merideth NiShionniach, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield June Internal Letter. Comments are due by July 21, 2017.

1: Birna fra blakksholum -New Name & New Device

Per pall inverted azure, argent and sable, two bears heads erased counterchanged

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (Old Norse) most important.
Meaning (Birna of Black Hills) most important.

Birna - Old Norse feminine given name found in GB, p 8

fra - Norse preposition meaning 'from' per 'Place-Names in Landnámabók (Incomplete)' by Brian M. Scott (http://archive.is/AqzS)

"The prepositions frá and ór (or ór) are also moderately common in locative bynames, but to indicate place of origin rather than place of residence: both can generally be translated 'from' in this context. Indeed, frá is cognate with English from."

blakksholum - constructed surname to mean 'Black Hills'. Source of elements are as follows:

blakkr - Old Norse for black per 'English-Old Norse Dictionary' compiled by Ross G Arthur, (http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf)

holar - Old Icelandic for a hill, a hillock, a knoll per 'Place-Names in Landnámabók (Incomplete)' by Brian M. Scott (http://archive.is/AqzS)

"Hólar (Hrepphólar), (1) Árn. (farm)

-- (Klaustrhólar), (2) Árn. (farm)

-- (Reykjahólar), Barð. (farm)

-- (Vestrhópshólar), Húnv. (farm)

-- (Krumshólar), Mýr. (farm)

-- Skag. (farm)

OIc. hóll 'a hill, a hillock, a knoll', here in the plural hólar. The long forms in parentheses are OIc. forms of the modern names of these places; Reykjahólar occurs in at least one version of Landnámabók, and they are probably all quite old, but I have no other details. The first elements of the first four are from OIc. hreppr 'a poor-law district (in Iceland)', klaustr 'a cloister, a convent', reykr 'smoke, steam' (referring to hot springs), genitive plural reykja, and a compound of vestr 'the west' and hóp 'a small, land-locked bay or inlet connected with the sea'. Krums is the genitive singular of krumr, the byname of Þorbjo˛rn krumr, who was given land there; the byname probably refers to a stiff or crooked finger.

Locative Byname: at Hólum, í Hólum, á Hólum. (There is also someone described as living fyrir ofan Hóla 'above Hólar', but I'm not sure whether this expression would have been used as a byname.)"

Per SENA Appendix A: Accents and other diacritics (like þ, ðnd ǫ) may be used or omitted, as long as the system is consistent

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-06-27 01:31:04
This feels incredibly familar somehow. Did someone else recently try to register a locative from the same place?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-27 01:53:34
Maybe on the Chat. Not mentioned in any OSCAR comment in my tray.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-06-27 19:33:31
This was on chat a week and a half ago.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-06-27 20:59:11
That it was!
I'll just copy-paste my comment from there.

Blakks-
The given name Blakkr (Lind col. 148 sn. Blakkr) can be used as part of a pre-existing pattern of topographical features named after people.

Place-Names in Landnámabók has:
sn. Álfgeirsvellir
"From the masculine name Álfgeirr, genitive Álfgeirs, and OIc. vollr 'a field'"

sn. Karlafjorðr
"From the masculine name Karli, genitive Karla, and OIc. fjorðr 'a fjord, a firth, an inlet': 'Karlis fjord'."
sn. Brattsholt

From the masculine name Brattr, genitive Bratts, and OIc. holt 'a wood, a copse; a rough, stony hill or ridge'; in an early place-name the sense 'copse' is perhaps more likely.

-hólar:
sn. Kýlanshólar
"From the masculine name Kýlan, genitive Kýlans, and the plural of either OIc. hóll 'a hill, a hillock, a knoll' or hólmr 'a holm, an islet': 'Kýlans knoll or holm'."


sn. Oddgeirshólar
"From the masculine name Oddgeirr, genitive Oddgeirs, and OIc. hóll 'a hill, a hillock, a knoll', here in the plural hólar."

sn. Hallkelshólar
"From the masculine name Hallkell, genitive Hallkels, and OIc. hóll 'a hill, a hillock, a knoll', here in the plural hólar: 'Hallkels knolls'."

If we take the dative case with the preposition, then she'd be "frá Blakkshólum", because nominative hólar becomes dative hólum.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-06-28 18:47:18
Had I known that was you, I would have just copied and pasted the whole thing and used it for documentation on this. You continue to rock!

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-06-28 21:05:10
Don't worry about it!

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-14 19:24:34
Looks plausible.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 17:13:04
No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-06-22 14:07:01
Adding an 'in chief' to specify the location of the charges, and an apostrophe for the bears gives:

Per pall inverted azure, argent and sable, in chief two bear's heads erased counterchanged.

I was tempted to also add an Oxford comma after argent, but practice is definitely mixed on that for per pall fields so I left it in the submitted form.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-06 13:30:42
No conflicts found. Never heard that comma called an "Oxford comma", but I learned in (US) grade school grammar to separate each item in a series with one: "azure, argent, and sable". Agree that the heads should be specified as in chief.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-06 14:10:45
I call it "book punctuation" as opposed to that comma's omission, which is usual in magazines and newspapers. But that's my idosyncracy; Maister Iago's term is established (and anachronistic).

Concur with revised blazon.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 17:21:41
On first glance I thought these were wolf heads, but I am okay with them being bears.

No conflicts found.


2: Edmond Cambell -New Device Change

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2014, via Northshield.

Or, a dragon displayed and in base two crossed swords gules, a bordure rayonny sable

Old Item: Paly Or and azure, on a chief embattled sable three roundels Or, to be retained as a badge.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-06-22 14:08:52
There's a Step from Period Practice for a dragon displayed, but I believe that's the only one.

Aria Gemina Mala at 2017-06-23 04:51:57
Fewer, larger rays as bordure division would be good, and the dragon is a "something displayed" even just across a small room. Think there are thus identifiability problems

Iago ab Adam at 2017-06-23 10:19:52
The dragon could stand to be bigger, but I can clearly make out that it's a dragon on the 2" emblazon from over 40" away.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-23 14:26:06
Regarding the dragon's recognizability, concur with Maister Iago. It's the same when I view the 8" version from 13', the convenient smaller dimension of my room. Also the swords, but see my suggested blazon in a different comment.

Nevertheless concur with Baroness Aria that the dragon can and should be larger, and I'd advise a proportionately larger head.

The image below from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=18660 was registered to Doireann of Danegeld Tor but with the artist's note, "Please advise the submitter to draw larger and fewer rayons". I'd recommend about 2/3 as many and half again as long, perhaps cutting into the outer part of the bordure.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-23 14:27:28
Make that:

Or, a dragon displayed and in base two rapiers in saltire gules, a bordure rayonny sable

[Please see retraction below.]

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-06-24 05:34:40
What makes these rapiers? I see the SCA-standard (broad)swords.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-24 10:35:35
I see swords too narrow to be broad.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-26 22:43:12
Wherefore I ought to propose

Or, a dragon displayed and in base two swords in saltire gules, a bordure rayonny sable

My apologies for letting my irrelevant art-critic reaction influence my blazon. I'll try not to do it again.

Daniel the Broc at 2017-06-27 10:48:52
No conflicts seen.

I agree that the swords could be angled a bit better and moved into base, which would allow the dragon to grow much larger to fill the space as befits a primary charge.

They're...identifiable as is to me, but I'd feel much better with an AN.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-07-01 01:09:18
When I opened the colored image in a new window (to check Gerard's comment about the swords as rapiers), it became clear that this dragon is "en arrière." The spine is facing to the viewer and the tail is clearly the foremost part of the dragon with the neck turning the head backward toward the viewer. That would make this "Or, a dragon displayed en arriere regardant and in base two swords in saltire gules, a bordure rayonny sable."

That brings us to a potential issue. From the December 2010 LoAR, return of the device of Somerled of Ballindore: "This device has the dragon in the posture volant en arrière, a variant of volant for insects. It is not a posture that monsters may use." http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2010/12/10-12lar.html I find no more recent precedent regarding en arriere as applied to not insects. This specifically mentions "volant en arriere," rather than "en arriere" but there are no blazons using en arriere referring to dragons in the O&A, only insects (bees, dragonflies, and butterflies, specifically). So is this dragon is a position that is a able to be registered?

Also, I agree the swords are a bit small, but are not rapiers based on the cross hilt and blade size relative to the grip.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-01 01:57:20
Concur with Sable Crane in all respects--viewed close-up, the tail cannot be seen as coming forward from below a ridged belly--except I do not believe that in English-language blazon en arrière has any existence apart from volant en arrière, and in any case the charge here can well be considered volant.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-07-01 09:10:28
In a contest between wing joints and tail/groin join, I think the tail issue is more identifiable as "rear end", especially when considered with the neck detailing.

I agree that this is a back view, with wonky wings. The tail isn't coming around from behind, it's forward already. There is no detailing for the stomach edge to give the understanding that this is frint-facing. I think in total this is a bigger detailing issue than seeing versus not seeing the wing joints on the back.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-07-01 07:03:13
If this were the case, then the wings must be sprouting from the dragon's chest. I'm afraid I don't see this as a rear view.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-01 08:06:56
Thank you for pointing that out. It's not a consistent rear view, either.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 17:31:13
I agree- this is neither a good front nor back view. That said, no conflicts found.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-07-01 12:53:11
I will advise the submitter on all commentary made here as he works on a redraw of this device.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-06 13:36:28
Agree with Sable Crane that the dragon has its back facing us, but agree with Keythong about the wings. This definitely needs a redraw. No conflicts found.


3: Konrad der Lowe von Ulm -New Household Name & New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2012, via the East.

House of Winter Wardens

Vert, a pale sable fimbriated and overall a tree blasted and eradicated argent

This household name uses the patterns of inn signs based on the complete name of a specific person. Examples of this pattern are found in 'English Sign Names From 17th Century Tradesman's Tokens' by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (Kathleen M. O'Brien) (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Tokens/Patterns.shtml#SpecificPerson) which gives examples of inn names based on the full names of:

Sir Thomas Gresham

Will Somers

Guy of Warwick

By precedent, the correct pattern for using full names to name households is "House of given name + surname." [Brigit inghean ui Dhomhnaill. Household name House of Hammer Fall, 11/2014 LoAR, A-East]

Winter is an English given name found in Family Search. <Winter> Brandwod, Female, Christening Date 09 Apr 1520, Place England, Batch C01937-0 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:ND5F-T6L)

Wardens is an English surname found in Family Search. Richarde Joce <Wardens>, Male, Date 1558, Place England, Batch M05247-1 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2HQ-P9X)

Household Name Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-14 19:27:27
This sort of stunt documentation drives me up the wall, but I see no rule against this one. BTW, a warden is a (period?) variety of pear, sp this might be documentable closer to the client's presumed intent.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 17:05:33
No conflicts found. Verified documentation.

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-06-22 14:11:40
There is a Step from Period Practice for having a fimbriated ordinary with an overall charge, but I believe that is the only one.

Daniel the Broc at 2017-06-27 10:10:00
No conflicts seen.

Clear of both of Anne Barberry's "Vert, a pale sable fimbriated argent, surmounted by a winged empty drop-spindle Or." with DCs for change of overall type and overall tincture, and Branwen ferch Gwythyr "Vert, on a pale sable fimbriated argent a tree eradicated Or, a chief argent" with DCs for change of tincture for the overall tree and removal of the chief.

And SFPP for use of an overall charge over a fimbriated ordinary.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-27 14:01:35
Branwen's tree (device, Feb 2003) isn't overall, so there's a DC for removing that tertiary charge and another for adding the overall tree, giving no chance to count tincture, plus the DC for no chief.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-06 13:36:52
No conflicts found.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 18:16:49
No conflicts found.


4: Martin MacKeegan -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in December of 2010, via Northshield.

Per pall argent, sable and gules, a wolfs tooth issuant from dexter gules, a wolfs head couped ululant and a wolfs tooth issuant from sinister argent

Submission History: Previous device submission, Gules, a bend cotised between a stallion rampant and a mullet of eight points, was returned for a redraw in June 2014, at the kingdom level in Northshield. Submitter was encouraged to increase the thickness of the cotising then resubmit. His resubmission is a complete change. https://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=19&id=42368

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-23 14:36:02
The sequence is chiefmost, dextermost, remainder, for both the field tinctures and the charges. So this is:

Per pall sable, argent, and gules, a wolf's head couped ululant argent, three wolf's teeth issuant from dexter gules, and three wolf's teeth issuant from sinister argent

Modar Neznanich (Volk) at 2017-06-26 08:53:03
There is a SFPP for the ululant position of the wolf head.

Daniel the Broc at 2017-06-27 11:13:49
I think the sable portion of the field is too small. A properly drawn per pall field should divide the field roughly into thirds.

It might be on the small side of accepted, only requiring an AN though. Compare to Eleonora Pragensis field (See image) on the Feb 14 Loar which was registered with the note: "Please advise the submitter to draw the upper third of the field larger, to be in better balance with the other two thirds."

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-27 14:24:37
Concur in all respects.

I do understand submitters choosing the midpoint of the fess line as the intersection point for per pall. I've no idea how to spread the word that it doesn't work well.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-07-01 12:56:34
What is the proper point to bring the upper section of a per pall to that will repeatedly insure it is of an adequate size?

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-07-01 12:56:43
What is the proper point to bring the upper section of a per pall to that will repeatedly insure it is of an adequate size?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-01 18:05:11
I'd start out by taking the geometric mid point of the vertical line, which is NOT its intersection with the fess line, and see if that looks good. Or first place the charges evenly and then draw the dividing lines--which is clearly not what Eleonora's artist did.

Note that Juger Knot's device, first image below from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=45102, drew no artist's note even though its dividing point is in the higher position. I believe that's because its charges are well placed.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-06 13:38:41
Agree the sections of the field need to be more nearly equal. Blazon fu: "Per pall sable, argent, and gules, a wolf's head couped ululant argent, three wolf's teeth issuant from dexter gules and three wolf's teeth issuant from sinister argent." No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-06 14:12:15
Thanks for the concurrence.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 18:12:53
No conflicts found.


5: Thyri Nielsdattir -New Name

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.
Language (12th c Denmark) most important.

Jelling Stones - Jelling, Denmark

'The Viking-age Rune-Stones: Custom and Commemoration in Early Medieval Scandinavia by Birgit Sawyer, p 158 (Oxford University Press, 2000) A copy of this documentation was not provided.

Per submitter: This source cites acceptable translation as Thyre and Thorvi, also Thyra, but my persona is a couple hundred years removed from the original. I thought Thyri would be well within creative license.

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-23 15:28:39
Languages do indubitably change over time, and in fiction "creative license" for a coalescence from the cited three etymons into the submitted given name would be plausible. But it is not documentation.

Fortunately for submitter, <Þýri> is documented s.n. Þyra at http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONWomensNames.shtml, authorizing <Thyri> without invoking license.

(Incidentally, submitter's source is available on line at https://books.google.com/books?id=MMFisCY78DYC and a search therein finds multiple instances of <Thyre>and two of <Thorvi>. But this is moot.)

The form <Nielsdattir> is vanishingly rare on the modern Net, but from other's evidence on OSCAR, <-datter> is in use from at least 1354: http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=23590, <Margrete Pedersdatter>. There is a registered <Sören Nielsen>, but whether <Niels-> is the genitive to produce a correct <Nielsdatter> patronymic in period I cannot tell.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-06-27 01:23:29
Olddanske Personnavne by Oluf August Nielsen
(http://www.kb.dk/e-mat/dod/130021272907.pdf)
p. 99 sn. Thyrwi has in the 12th century...
Thruvi 12.(?) Årh. Lund.
Thiuri, Tiuri, Thyri 12. Årh. Necr. Lund.
Thyra 12. Årh. Saxo.

So, the first two are (I think) from Necrologium Lundense, written circa 1130, in Lund in Scania/Skåne, which was a part of Denmark until the 17th century.
(https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrologium_Lundense)

Nielsen also has:
p. 16 sn. Bughi
Bugi Nielsen 1410
p. 17 sn. Dan
Niels Daan 1435
p. 59 sn. *Køpi
Niels Kiøbe 1491
Which point to Niels being a slightly later form of Nicholas.
Diplomatarium Danicum online, gets us slightly closer with:
Esbernus Nicolai, (Latin) 1252-1259 (http://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/12529999002)
Petrus Niclæssun, (Latin) 1289 (http://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/12890111001)

But without having any other sources at hand, I can only suggest "Thyri Niclæsdaater" or similar.

Mira Fastova (Keythong) at 2017-06-28 19:22:42
So you are saying that Niels was not known as a given name at that time?

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-06-28 21:13:42
Yep. Best as I can tell it was not used in the 12th century.

But if she wants "Nielsdatter" it is datable to the 15th century. Ie. registerable but not the time period she wants.

Later-period examples:
Sophia Nielsdatter 1407 (http://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/14070306001)
Ingeborg Nielsdatter, 1411 (http://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/14111215001)
Elsabett Niels datter, 1434 (http://diplomatarium.dk/dokument/14349999025)
(I can't find any instances of -dattir, sorry!)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-28 23:34:02
Which is better than what you get at http://dmnes.org/name/Nicholas, where <Nils> is listed as 1359 in Old Swedish and <Niels> only as 1559 in Early Modern Swedish.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-07-14 19:30:05
All the additional source material provided by Gerard and ffride make this just fine.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-07-14 20:50:37
No, we didn't justify <Nielsdattir>.

Anpliça Fiore (Scroby) at 2017-07-16 17:10:54
No conflicts found.


Thus ends the June Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 2 Names, 1 Household Name, 2 Devices, 1 Device Change and 1 Badge. There are a total of 7 items submitted on this letter.

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