SCA Laurel Sovereign of Arms
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
LoIs
KLoIs
SENA
Prec
AH
Track
Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account

MAIL ME my password.



SEARCH:

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]

Ansteorra ILoI dated 2017-05-02

Gulf Wars submissions included

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 10:52:41
Commentary under my name on this letter represents the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lord Caoimhin McKee, Rouge Sanglier Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, Lady Gwenhevere Maynes, Deodar Pursuivant, and myself.

1: Ælfhild Ragnarsdóttir -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 2015, via Caid.

Argent, a double headed eagle sable maintaining in its talons two swords inverted and crossed in saltire Or, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent

Northkeep - Herald: Geoffrey de Gourney

Notes on Submission form:

"Appendix I Section E:

...they are allowed to violate contrast rules, though they must have some contrast so they can remain identifiable..."

****This item was on the 10-2015 LoAR

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/10/15-10lar.html#Caid_returns13

Ælfhild Ragnarsdóttir. Device change. Argent, a double-headed eagle sable maintaining in base two swords inverted in saltire Or, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent.

This device is returned for contrast issues. On the August 2015 Cover Letter we stated "Held/conjoined charges must have good contrast with their background." Here the gold swords lack contrast with the argent field.

(http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=55479)

Correction to Device (2017-May-08 23:05:40): See new emblazon in comments for conflict check.

Correction to Device (2017-May-10 15:05:11): Correcting the blazon based on revised submission:

Argent, a double headed eagle sable maintaining in its talons two swords inverted and crossed in saltire, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-02 22:10:32
Is this an appeal or a resub? Sounds like an appeal. I think that will make an administrative difference on our end.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-02 22:14:34
Is this an appeal or a resub? Sounds like an appeal. I think that will make an administrative difference on our end.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 11:18:13
I believe you are correct. But since the decree of August 2015 post-dates the latest revision of SENA, it must be taken as controlling when it contradicts the latter. I therefore expect that this appeal is doomed.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 12:05:02
I recently pulled that precedent for another discussion and went back to review it. Link: http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/08/15-08cl.html#6

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 15:36:46
My thanks to Sable Crane for posting the link as I should have.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 07:02:21
Looking at the form, resubmission is checked, but not the Kingdom or Laurel box. My recommendation is to return it because this does not address the reason for return. If the submitter wants to appeal the original return, they need to do a proper appeal with the supporting evidence attached.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 10:54:40
no conflict found whether resub or appeal

Geoffrey de Gournay at 2017-05-08 15:54:20
Greetings all, I've talked with the submitter, she is agreeable to the proposition of changing the "maintaining in its talons two swords inverted and crossed in saltire OR" to GULES. Hopefully, this will eliminate the "contrast" issues.

Geoffrey, Northkeep herald

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-08 16:03:39
Can you have her send in revised art/form to Asterisk ASAP?

Geoffrey de Gournay at 2017-05-08 16:17:52
Certainly!

Geoffrey de Gournay at 2017-05-08 17:31:42
Device documents generated and sent via email to Asterisk. Hard copies to follow in next packet.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 19:42:09
Device resubmitted

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 12:13:36
Works well with the chief.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:54:29
This does appear clear from conflict.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-10 15:15:28
Possible blazon for the corrected submission:

Argent, a double headed eagle sable maintaining in its talons two swords inverted and crossed in saltire, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-10 18:22:39
Concur with that blazon--though the "and" is unnecessary, it's not an error.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 00:24:34
The original submission was returned under the blazon "Argent, a double-headed eagle sable maintaining in base two swords inverted in saltire Or, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent", so consider the blazon "Argent, a double-headed eagle sable maintaining in base two swords inverted in saltire, on a chief gules three mullets of eight points argent." on the redraw.

No conflicts observed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 03:02:06
Concur with that reblazon; don't know why I left "crossed in" in!

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:56:36
Please be careful with the use of camera phones to take images of the forms for uploading to OSCAR.

Faith Tomlinson
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/03/16-03lar.html
It must also be returned administratively. The Administrative Handbook says "The colored copy must be a scan of the original." This is not a scan. As indicated in this month's cover letter, the image does not need to come from a scanner but must be an unaltered digital representation of the actual paperwork. This is not the case here as the colors are altered and different from that on the uploaded form.

This return was because OSCAR picked up the white as colors other than white.

Geoffrey de Gournay at 2017-05-11 19:09:52
Etienne, I'm not sure what you are seeing to make you think I used my phone. I can only tell you that I do all my heraldry work with a HP 3-in-1 copier/scanner/printer. If I need to sent a line drawing to match the Color, please let me know.

In Service Geoffrey

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-11 19:12:34
The original scans seem to have a weird shadow, it doesn't appear in the new colored version posted. That will need to be fixed before submitting up the line. I'll be working with Asterisk on those scans that seem a bit off.

I think the shadows we are seeing and that Sea Stag is concerned about seem to stem from the folded paper not being pushed flat against the glass.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 19:19:12
It's the shadow. :-)

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 19:21:39
I will say that it's no where near as bad as the one that got returned for the issue. Perhaps you had the lid up when you scanned?

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-20 16:31:36
It seems to be a problem that I have talked with Asterisk about. The scans will be fixed for the LoI.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-20 16:30:35
The form was resubmitted and the picture in the commentary was from the resubmission. There is no need for return.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-20 16:31:30
Woot (thumbs up)

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 10:54:06
Changing the swords to gules seems to solve the contrast problem. No conflicts found.


2: Alan Wemyss -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Aelia Musa(6/2013), Ælin Kausi (3/2015), Aileen O'Shea (6/1991), al-'Aliyya Lyonnais (7/2006), Alana Hawk (6/1992)

Per pale sable and vert, a sparrow volant wings addorsed between three mullets of four points argent

Sound (Allen Weems) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Loch Soilier

Alan - given name, expected vernacular form of Alannus d.1284 in withycombe

s.n. Al(l)an

Wemyss - byname dated 1286 in Reaney & Wilson

Submitted at Gulf Wars - Loch Soilier

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-03 06:25:47
Docs for surname checks out. The entry goes on to say, "From the lands of Wemyss (Fife)" and lists David de Wemes, 1314 ibid (Black).
R&W, s.n. Allain, Allan, Allans, et al shows John Fitz Alan in 1416.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 08:45:17
I also see Alan in Men's Given Names from Early 13th Century England by Talan Gwynek (Brian M. Scott) bmscott@stratos.net https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/eng13/eng13m.html with 13 entries and doc check for surname im also not seeing any conflict

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:25:48
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 10:55:47
No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 08:48:41
Im seeing no conflict

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 06:30:52
Seems 2 DC clear versus "Azure, a dove volant wings addorsed between three mullets of four points, a bordure argent." (Alane Godwin, Device, Mar 2016) with changes to the tincture of the field and removal of the peripheral charge. I don't see a (not needed) third for change to type - the dove is a period heraldic charge, but a sparrow has not been fond as far as I know. No other potential conflicts observed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 11:39:38
The table in http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2003/11/03-11brd.html, linked from http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixM, includes the sparrow with a known period posture of close. This fact would be relevant for a potential SC against a bird in another category, but it is does not matter here since both dove and sparrow are "regular-shaped".

We could ask whether, regardless of period occurrence, there is a DC between sparrows and doves. I would judge not, that the dove's head tuft is a minor detail. bat as Master Tostig says, it does not affect conflict in this case.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 10:57:04
Does this have sufficient distinctive characteristics to set it off from a generic bird? No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 15:37:42
Not that I can tell. On the other hand, there's nothing about it that contradicts what I'm seeing in a Google Image search or reading at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparrow#Description, "plump ... birds with short tails and stubby, powerful beaks".

However, our Sovereigns are apparently willing to blazon sparrow for similar avians volant when that is submitted. The first image below, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69153 for Caterine le Jeune, was blazoned with a sparrow on its return in Dec 2016, and the second, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=65359 for Cian ap Reys, was registered with three sparrows, Sep 2016.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2


3: Arnóra Roöbertdóttir -New Name & New Device

Purpure, a descrescent between in cross four mullets of eight points Or

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch - Herald: Brigida Von Munchen

Arnóra - found in [GB] p 7 with 7 instances

Roöbert - found in [GB] p 14

Roöbertdóttir as patronymic is formed following the guidelines found in [GB]

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch - Herald: Brigida Von Munchen

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-03 06:35:19
I suspect her father's name is Roðbert, that's not an accented o, but the letter eth.
The expected patronymic would be Roðbertsdóttir.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 07:05:54
The form has the accent mark that you mention, I imagine that Asterisk did her best to get the closest.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 08:51:10
We've had this misreading by other submitters, not necessarily in this kingdom. No one's blaming Asterisk. But the name needs to be corrected to something possible. It's as though someone mistakenly submitted, say, <Rqbertson> as an English name..

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 17:13:23
I'm not blaming Asterisk, that office is transitioning and I think Rebekah has done a good job inputting this letter by herself with Vigdis's reviewing it.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-04 19:09:24
It's very common that submitters confuse the letter ð/eth as an accented o (in fact, there was someone on the SCA Heraldry facebook page a few weeks ago making the same error in exactly the same patronymic!)

So everyone knows (no judgement here!), the notation for ð is { dh }.

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-06 17:13:04
Ugh, so everyone knows *for the future,* here's the Dauid notation, not "everyone knows the notation is this."

Sometimes I sound like a bit of a jerk when I type.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:18:09
im in agreement also at the viking answer lady lists this name as Roðbert which would be Roðbertsdóttir. given name docs check finding no conflicts

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:26:36
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 10:59:14
Aside from the confusion about the edth, this is fine. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 08:58:17
i am seeing a couple close but possible conflicts Kendric de Morlaix The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 1985 (via Caid): Per saltire vert and sable, a crescent between in cross four mullets of four points Or. Not sure if the the crescent position between a crescent and decrescent would count? or the number points between the mullets and Heiðr in ljósa The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 2015 (via An Tir): Purpure, a crescent between three compass stars Or. Not sure if again a decrescent vs crescent and compass star vs mullets

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 11:38:39
The example at http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5G7c provides explicitly that there is a DC for orientation between crescents, decrescents, and increscents. Mullets get no difference for number of points under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixM.

So Kendric is minimally clear, 1 DC for the field and another for the primary charge, and so is Heiðr, with 1 DC for the primary charge and another for the number of secondary charges.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 07:11:39
It maybe me, but the image appears more azure than purpure even on the scan of the form.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 09:00:34
I think I'd have tried Crayola's "Blue-Purple" wax crayon to match it, not "Purple-Blue". But perhaps too close.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-07 10:08:52
The original is colored purpure. Will try to use a different scanner

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-07 12:31:23
Sometimes they're adjustable. Sometimes.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-08 16:18:08
It reads purpure on my screen, and mottled blue/purple on the color-correction, so a re-scan wouldn't be a bad idea.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 17:17:47
Device rescan

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 12:16:00
Good. Clearly neither gules nor azure now. I don't like the shade, but she'll doubtless pick an attractive one for actual use!

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 06:44:58
Thank you for the re-scan.

No conflicts observed, including Kendrick and Heiðr raised elsewhere by Blue Talbot and addressed by Michael Gerard Curtememoir.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:14:38
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:00:01
No conflicts found.


4: Astridr Flokadottir -New Name & New Device

Per fess indented argent and azure, two ravens sable and a saltire couped argent all within a bordure sable

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound (Astrid) most important.

Barony of Elfsea - Herald: Publius Rutilius Caprarius

Client desires a 10th century Norse feminine name

Astridr - attested feminine first name

Landnámbok (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html)

Flokadottir - "daughter of Floki"

Floka genitive form of Flokí, also found (3 instances) in Landnámbok

Submitted at Gulf Wars

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-03 06:49:07
The submitter has a couple of choices here. The standardised Old Norse form of her given name, is Ástríðr, or with no accents, Astriðr.

Precedent says that the ð isn't interchangable with a d, but with th:
June 2011 LoAR sn. Thjothrikr inn harthi.

"Submitted as Thjodrikr inn harði, the spelling of the given name was not justified. While the submitter made a plausible argument for the spelling -rikr for the deuterotheme, no argument was offered for replacing ð with d. Therefore, we have changed the consonant to the documented form."
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/06/11-06lar.html)

So she also has the option of Astrithr, too.

Finally, Lind col. 87, sn. Ástríðr has (just in case she wants the -d- and is willing to compromise on the 10th century):
Asstriid, 1391, Norway
Astryd, 1391, Norway
Astridur, 1465, Iceland.

As an Old West Norse name, though, I'd suggest Astrithr Flokadottir is closest to the submitted spelling.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 17:19:39
Email sent to submitter asking what is more important, sound or time period.

Waiting for response

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 19:18:32
Just received an email from the submitter. She is more interested in the hard D sound. As in modern day "Astrid"

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-08 20:11:18
Best I can offer then:
SMP sn. Astridh
(http://arkiv.sprakochfolkminnen.se/Display.aspx?form=smp-sok&item=/Nordiskt/Variationsnamn/Kvinnonam n/Astridh/Astridh.pdf)
Astrid a Skorby, 1388

Lind col. 277 sn. Flóki mentions:
"Flóki Þorleiks s." from the 1200s in Iceland.
So a mixed Old Icelandic/Swedish name could be "Astrid Flokadottir" and the name elements would be well within 500 years.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:36:59
if the client is more enterested in the sound then i personally would recomend going to the Old norse version Ástríðr from GB that is closer to the clients wishes more that i see surname docs check out no conflicts found

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 11:43:11
See Sable Crane's comment below. As he doesn't quite state, your recommendation is "ah-STREE-thr" with TH as in modern English "there". That not what she's actually asked for on the form.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 10:50:13
The question becomes whether the client needs the hard "d" sound at the end, as she had stated sound is most important. If she does, the name she has submitted will not work because eth creates a much different sound. If she wants that sound she has options, as ffride points out, but we need to know what the submitter wants.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 07:16:55
Going by the no major changes and the sound of "Astrid" being most important, we can determine that the hard d sound is what the submitter would like.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 08:55:16
But as Mistress ffride notes, that's not possible in the 10th-c. context submitter also requests. Contact is more appropriate than our determination of her wishes.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:30:02
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:01:09
What's in the cited reference is "Ástríðr" and "Flóki". Losing the diacritical marks would make it Astriðr Flokadottir. Judging by what ffride said and the communication from the submitter, she will probably want to take Astrid Flokadottir. No conflicts found with any spelling.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:43:34
No conflict found Nice device

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-08 16:20:09
Is the couped saltire thick enough? It seems thin, but recognizable, so I wasn't sure.

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-09 00:00:10
I thought it was a pair of crossed sewing needles at first before I read the blazon. At the very least we'd want to pass on an artist's instruction to draw it bolder in the future, I think.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 12:27:17
Concur with Actuarius, except I'd expect the charge to be returned as unrecognizable.

I'd also delete the "all within"; it's not an error, but the first part isn't complex enough for the phrase to clarify the layout. So I'd prefer:

Per fess indented argent and azure, two ravens sable and a saltire couped argent, a bordure sable

On resubmission, it would be nice if the ravens didn't fade in the color version.

It looks like the charge (properly drawn) is indifferently also called a saltorel.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-09 12:33:09
Oh good, I also saw needles at first.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:04:06
I didn't see needles (no holes, and not pointed at one end) but I did think that it was thin sticks or staves, and that they were a bit thin.

I have both visibility and recognition concerns and suggest returning for a redraw.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 07:33:12
I share the identifiabilty concerns of the saltorel raised by Actuarius and had to check the large line drawing to verify it was not two long/skinny widgets crossed in saltire.

If forwarded, it seems 2 DC clear versus "Per chevron argent and azure, two ravens sable and a drawn bow with arrow nocked argent." (Goffraid Cléireach, Device, June 2016) with changes to the line of field division and type to the charge group on a divided portion of the field. No other potential conflicts observed.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 09:50:18
Return for violation of S.E.N.A. A.2.C.2. Identifiability: Elements must be drawn to be identifiable.

The Salitire couped is not drawn to be recognizable as a saltire couped and the confusion by the commenters with needles is enough to send back for a redraw. Searching OSCAR, there are several recent examples of a saltire couped and none of them look like this, understanding that this could just be an artistic issue, I'd recommend contacting the submitter to request a redraw.

The image below is the device of Chyldeluve de Norfolk, registered in February 2008 via the East

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:02:26
No conflicts found. Agree that the saltire coupes needs to be much bolder.


5: Aunphelice de Grene -New Name & New Device

Azure, three stags statant guardant and a bordure Or

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Mooneschadowe - Herald: Brigida von Munchen

Aunphelice - s.n. Amphelisia from Feminine Given Names from "A Dictionary of

English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/reaney.cgi?Amphelisia

de Grene - [R+W] s.n. Green, Greene, Grene. Listed example of Geoffrey de

Grene dated to 1188

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Mooneschadowe

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:44:30
docs check out no conflicts found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:30:57
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:03:17
Given name doc checks out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:46:01
I'm not seeing any conflicts

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 11:50:58
The O&A seems never to have blazoned a stag as statant g(u)ardant and only once an elk. So:

Azure, three stags at gaze and a bordure Or

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 07:38:00
Concur with the proposed reblazon.

No conflicts observeed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:03:33
No conflicts found.


6: Belle de la Tour -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Bella Talia Derro(2/2007)

Per fess azure and purpure, on a tower Or a bell sable

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (French) most important.
Culture (French) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Hellsgate

Belle - female given birth name from "Index of Given names in the 1292 Census of Paris" by Colm Dubh

http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html#B

de la Tour - byname ibid #D <Luquet de la tour>

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Hellsgate

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 10:19:29
believe the OSCAR conflict is clear enough and the docs check out not seeing any other conflicts

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:32:33
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:04:57
Docs check out. Of course the pun works only as a mixed language. (I keep thinking of "Belle du Jour", but that film is set post-period. ☺)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 15:41:09
Pun?

(Soon after: Got it; the French name works as an English-based cant.)

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 00:28:19
I had difficulty identifying the bell here - it looks like a slightly oddly-shaped window (not helped by the fact that many heraldic towers have a window in exactly that location).

A bit of internal detailing on the colour emblazon might help the identifiability.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 08:03:14
I share the identifiability concerns of the bell raised by Iago ab Adam.

If viewed as a window, consider versus "Ermine, a tower Or." (Ivanov von Schloss, Device, July 1971) - have sent a request to Ragged for the emblazon. As a uncharged primary I expect to see only 1 DC for change to tincture of field.

If viewed as a tertiary charge, no conflicts observed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 11:50:09
At 20:1 distances, I see the charge as defintely a bell, not a window, but I concur that white-line detailing in the color where the b&w has black-line would improve the situation.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 10:17:02
the bell was not the issue for me was the contrast with the azure and purpure field division from a distance is not easy to distinguish one from the other i am not seeing any conflict

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:09:49
Although it is difficult to differentiate with these tinctures of purple and blue (the purple being confused for blue in parts of the corrected version) - SENA A3B3a explicitly permits this, stating: "Elements evenly divided into two parts (per pale, per fess, per bend, per bend sinister, per chevron, per chevron inverted) may use any two tinctures or furs, as long as the two sections do not have the same base tincture." http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3B3a

I do not confuse the bell for a window, but it does take a moment thinking about it to identify it as a bell. It is easier to recognize in the color corrected version. I do not believe the bell warrants a return.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-10 18:33:24
Love the canting arms, incidentally. More people should follow this example and find a good cant.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-11 10:29:45
hands are hard. that's why mine with the cant is now a badge. :P canting mileage varies!

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 10:28:51
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:05:50
No conflicts found. Agree that the parted field uses a poorly contrasting pair of colors. Rohese also thinks the bell looks like a window, which would put it into several conflicts, not to mention spoiling the pun.

Daniel the Broc at 2017-06-05 09:25:01
Really I just think the bell needs some internal detailing, preferably in white. The line drawing has a band just above the bell that just needs to be picked out.

And while azure and purpure are very low contrast, it is a plain line and is allowable.


7: Belle de la Tour -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Or, a bell sable within a bordure vert

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Hellsgate

Badge Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 09:50:28
i am seeing a possible conflict of Carillion, Barony of The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1986 (via the East): Or, a bell within a laurel wreath sable. only difference is the laurel wreath vs bordure

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 14:48:10
There's a difference in type between the laurel wreath and the bordure, as well as a difference in tincture between the two, so there are 2 DCs.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 08:23:53
On the other hand, the Laurel Wreath is a required charge for Branch Armory. As such, it used to be considered as both visible and/or invisible for purposes of conflict checking, but I can't find the statement in SENA, the current Admin Handbook or the Glossary of Terms. Did that Rule change? If invisible, I see only 1 DC for addition of the bordure versus "Or, a bell sable"

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-29 11:07:57
Here's the rule you were thinking of from the RfS:

"Two pieces of official Society armory that share required charges may consider their Difference of Primary Charges as if the required charges were not there. This is to avoid penalizing the slight increase in complexity caused when official armory includes required charges like the laurel wreath or crown. As an example, Gules, a hammer within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules would not conflict with Gules, a mullet within a laurel wreath and on a chief Or three fleurs-de-lys gules. Required charges always count normally for difference themselves, this rule only ignores the complexity they add to a design. This provision may not be applied when comparing official Society armory with any other armory."

SENA doesn't have an equivalent rule, and it wouldn't apply here even if it did.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 13:26:14
Thank you, Iago. Senile, I'm definitely getting senile.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:05:52
Appears clear from conflict.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 10:29:17
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:06:41
No conflicts found.


8: Bertina Battista -New Name & New Device

Azure, a hedgehog rampant maintaining a drop spindle and in chief two mullets of five greater and five lesser points argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound (Resembling modern name) most important.
Language most important.
Culture (Italian) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bryn Gwlad

Bertina - Fem given name "Online Catasto of Florence of 1427" cited one time

http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/catasto/newsearch/first_names.html

Battista - ibid cited six times

** could not find the last name in the catasto, but found it on the list of first names - Asterisk**

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bryn Gwlad

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-03 05:38:09
Docs check out although the link shows Battista 17 times. A Listing of All Names Given as Patronyms from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) shows Battista two times.https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/patroalpha.html
SENA, Appendix A, Patterns, Italian allows unmarked patronymics.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 10:21:36
no conflicts, docs check out

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:33:22
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:07:28
Docs check out with Maridonna's supplementary material. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 10:26:45
no conflicts found some close calls but i feel are clear enough

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 16:38:38
Don't feel, Lord Conall--count!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 16:37:32
I'd really like the hedgehog and her drop spindle to grow significantly. The maintained charge is right at the edge of identifiability for me, and that's after reading the blazon.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-03 17:16:02
Is a female hedgehog called a hedgesow?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 21:18:39
Not kidding at all (because reality is more interesting):

Sometimes she is, though nearly all of the hits on that word are for Erik Bergman's Vier Galgenlieder Op.51b: III Igel und Agel [Four Gallows Songs: Hedgehog and Hedgesow]. More than one of the few dozen from
"hedgesow" -gallows
are obvious typos for hedgerow and others are for a Hedgesow Dr., Orchard Park, NY.

Slightly more often, she's called "a sow hedgehog".

Go figure.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-07 20:04:29
It is a Step Form Period Practice to use the Mullet of 5 greater and 5 lesser points. I do not see any other SFPPs in the device, but it does need to be stated.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 14:11:49
Although it requires close examination, as Sea Stag discusses elsewhere, the maintained charge is identifiable as a modern drop spindle - wide whorl and triangular thread load. Previously registerable as a SFPP, the emblazoned depiction was ruled unregisterable in the October 2013 Cover Letter http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2013/10/13-10cl.html#3 The period heraldic drop-spindle (small whorl and ovoid thread load) depicted in the on-line Pictorial Dictionary (http://mistholme.com/dictionary/drop-spindle/)is attested to be taken from the source cited in that Cover Letter.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 17:17:05
Concur with Master Tostig.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:15:27
The drop spindle is hard to identify. Appears clear from conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-11 17:34:57
Compare http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/02/17-02lar.html#84, Isabel Northwode (returns), image below from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=70882.

Because held charges count for conflict checking purposes, they must be identifiable. Because of its small size and the fact that it is of the same tincture as the gryphon, the candle disappears in the details of the paw.
I repeat that this hedgehog has room to grow along with its held charge.

1: Image 1

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:13:53
I didn't even see that there WAS a drop spindle on first glance. That is a concern.

Once I knew to look for it, I had no issues identifying it, when I could see it.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:09:36
These mullets are a SFPP. No conflicts found. Bigger hedgehog as well as a bigger spindle.


9: Brigit inghean ui Crotaigh -New Name

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Brigit ingen Charthaig(4/2000)

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language (Celtic Goddess Brighid) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Mooneschadowe - Herald: Sofya la Rus

Brigit - feminine given name dated 524, 525,and 528 in Index of names in Irish Annals http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/all.shtml

Ó Crotaigh - Irish clan name per 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_O2.shtml

inghean Ui Cortaigh - feminine form to use clan name vs ingen Uí (Submitter prefers oghemic period)

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-03 01:30:44
This name, as documented, does not meet the requirements set forth in SENA. Anglicized Irish and Gaelic are in different (albeit combinable http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixCEnglish) regional naming groups, which means name phrases from one can be combined with the other only if they are dated to within 300 years of one another (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN2C2). These elements are over three times that far apart in date.

Additionally, the only Brigit documented in the cited reference for that name is a saint. Saints' names can be borrowed only into those cultures for which a pattern of borrowing saints' names can be established (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN1B2d). That was not a normal practice among medieval Gaels, so I suspect you'd have to find some evidence of plausibility to support its use here.

As for the submitter's stated period preference, clan affiliation bynames were not used until the 10th century (http://medievalscotland.org/scotnames/quickgaelicbynames/#clanaffiliationbyname) and "inghean" is an Early Modern Gaelic spelling, which is even later (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixAGaelic). She'll need to pick something different if she wants an Oghamic Irish name.


If the submitter is interested, we could probably get her "Brigid ynyn Ocroyta" or something similar in late-13th-century Anglicized Irish. The following are all names recorded in 1295 (https://archive.org/stream/calendarofjustic01irel):

Brigid wife of Roger Rydale (September 5th, p. 41)
Flynnyn Ocroyta (January 24th, p. 2)
Alice ynyn ohanth (September 5th, p. 44)
Alice ynyn yDymsy (July 26th, p. 34)
Sadue ynyn Yethegan (September 2nd, p. 47)

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 10:59:31
im also seeing a entry for Brighid http://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/brighid-brigid.php

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-05 17:45:24
While that source states specifically that the name was uncommon until after our chosen period, uncommon does not equate to unusable. So not evidence against submitter.

In any case, it gives no support for the spelling submitted. Even if it did, that would be without the needed date. Our Administrative Handbook (click the AH at the beginning or end of any OSCAR page) in its Appendix H says of Woulfe's Irish Names and Surnames, "Recommended for surnames only".

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:34:26
Appears clear from conflict.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-11 23:38:38
Consider the following:Name:

Brigit Acton Gender: Female Christening Date: 11 Aug 1616 Christening Place: ASTLEY ABBOTTS,SHROPSHIRE,ENGLAND Birth Date: Birthplace: Death Date: Name Note: Race: Father's Name: Richard Acton Father's Birthplace: Father's Age: Mother's Name: Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03218-1 System Origin: England-ODM GS Film number: 506790



Name: Brigit Waren Gender: Female Christening Date: 23 Sep 1557 Christening Place: CASTOR,NORTHAMPTON,ENGLAND Birth Date: Birthplace: Death Date: Name Note: Race: Father's Name: Father's Birthplace: Father's Age: Mother's Name: Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01681-1 System Origin: England-ODM GS Film number: 94951

Name: Brigit Harsham Gender: Female Christening Date: 31 May 1559 Christening Place: KELSALE,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND Birth Date: Birthplace: Death Date: Name Note: Race: Father's Name: Father's Birthplace: Father's Age: Mother's Name: Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01276-1 System Origin: England-ODM GS Film number: 0496832 IT 2

And there are several more from the late 1500 to early 1600 that should be enough to document this element to that period and resolve the time issue.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:10:19
No conflicts found. Eirik Halfdanarson's comment provides the needed support.


10: Dunstana Violet -New Name & New Device

Pupure, on a gout (of flame) Or, a salamander passant regardant gules

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language most important.

Dunstana - the femininzation of "Dunstan", an Anglo-Saxon Saint and Archbishop of Canterbury (b 909, d 988). Listed in the Oxford Book of English Saints

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199596607.001.0001/acref-9780199596607-e-485?r skey=yiKK2F&result=491

Violet - listed as a surname in "The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales by Sir Bernard Burk

https://archive.org/stream/generalarmoryofe00burk#page/1059/mode/2up

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Ivo Blackhawk

Name Comments:

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-03 02:13:16
The vernacular feminine form of "Dunstan" would be "Dunstan". As Withycombe explains:

Latin records of the 13th to 15th centuries show that the custom of giving masculine names to girls was also common in England; they appear in Latin with feminine endings, e.g. Philippa, Nicholaa, Alexandra, Jacoba, but it is clear that girls so named were in fact baptized and called Philip, Nicholas, Alexander, James, etc.
So what's being submitted is a documentary form by which the submitter would not actually be addressed. If she's not aware of that, someone should probably explain it to her.

The form "Dunstan" is dated to the late 10th to early 11th century in the Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England database (http://pase.ac.uk/jsp/index.jsp) as that of moneyers associated with the Exeter and Guildford mints who stamped it on coins.


I see nothing in the introduction to Burke's (https://archive.org/details/generalarmoryofe00burk) to indicate he recorded anything other than 19th-century forms of names.

"Robert Violet" is dated to 1291 in the Middle English Dictionary, s.n. violet (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED51217).

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 11:06:45
not finding any good documentation for Dunstana

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:35:49
Appears clear from conflict.

Beatrice Domenici della Campana at 2017-05-09 11:02:19
I can find multiple Family Search records for Dunstane (note the final "e") as a late period English male name, but nothing with a terminal "a".

This one is M00167-1 batch, dated 1548, for the marriage of Dunstane Annes to Constance, in London: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKRQ-CP2

There's an imaged register that I'm unable to see that claims a Dunasta Martyn married in 1592 in Devon: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCSK-JM5

There's a Dunstine B-batch dated 1623: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J85D-Y26 (which I offer because it sounds more feminine to me, with an ending like "Justine", and so may appeal to a modern ear).

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:10:58
Docs check out, assuming Dunstana is correctly formed. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-02 22:25:01
This isn't a gout. It looks like it is supposed to be a flame, though I haven't seen a flame like that registered. Proposed reblazon: Purpure, on a flame Or a salamander passant regardant gules.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:02:58
I'm not sure in what respect Sable Crane finds this flame anomalous. Below are five pieces of armory registered or returned without complaint regarding the shape of their flames.

The first image, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=12287 for Ascelina Alánn ingen Ailella, was returned for conflict. It displays a flame that, like this submission, has non-contiguous pieces.

The second, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=14663 for Aleksei Mikhailovich, is ragged at the bottom, though not nearly so much as the submission. Its LoAR noted that a flame, being "amorphous", cannot be bendwise, although the lizard upon it was so blazoned.

The third, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=45989 for Amanda of Arn Hold, is even more uneven at the top than this submission.

The fourth, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=37316 for Karl von Weisbaden, is similarly uneven.

The last, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=28495 for Lasair Táilliúir, is again not of one piece.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-03 17:33:05
Sable Crane and I were talking about this last night, and I wondered about the flame. Just as all the examples you posted show, I'm much more familiar with a specific bowl-like "bottom" of the flame and I'm used to seeing, at most, the 1 wisp of unconnected fire (as in your #5), so I wasn't sure about the multiple unattached bits. (It's likely fine for registration, but on a quick glance I thought it was a phoenix/bird tail at the bottom.)

In any case, I think we can all agree on flame versus gout.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 11:03:55
no conflicts found for the Proposed reblazon

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-20 17:06:55
It finally clicked why this flame bothers me so.

It blurs the line between a flame Or and a bordure rayonny purpure. It is clearly NOT a bordure rayonny due to the wisps at the top, but it looks similar and, at a distance, it will lead to confusion.

Because the flame fills the space so much and does not have the base, I think it's close to a bordure rayonny and should be drawn with a smaller flame or a flame with a rounded base that is clearly only a flame.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-20 17:38:03
Concur with Sable Crane's analysis. I believe removing or drastically shortening the tongue reaching to dexter base and the one at sinister chief would be enough to quench the bad-rayonny impression without having to completely round the base.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:16:08
I had the same concerns with it seeming like an abnormal bordure.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 14:36:40
Even if ruled identifiably drawn, consider versus "Azure, on a flame Or a paw print gules." ("Mikjáll sauðamaðr, Device, Dec 2014). As the (SFPP) paw-print is reflexive on the per pale axis, I only see 1 DC for change to type of tertiary. There may also be a conflict versus "(Fieldless) A salamander statant to sinister gules, enflamed Or." (Nostas'ia Stepanova Kievskaia, Badge, Feb 1999) This may have the "on a flame a salamander" depiction of "enflamed"

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 17:23:56
There is a second DC from Mikjáll: Purpure vs. azure field. No conflict.

Since Master Tostig does not say he has requested the registered emblazon for Nostas'ia's badge from our excellent archivist@heraldry.sca.org, I was going to do so and hope to post it soon. However, since her salamander is to sinister and this submission's is only regardant, there are at least 2 DCs, one for the field and another for the posture, and I have not made that request.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-31 19:57:29
Either the scan or my monitor is way off - the emblazon I have couldn't be more azure.

It is not so bad, however, as to display reguardant as contourny. That was totally me. You are correct, there's no conflict versus Nostas'ia.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:18:40
The color corrected version looks purpure. The color version looks azure to me as well. I suspect this is a Scanning issue.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:19:18
If resubmitted on a flame such as the above, I would not have concerns.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:12:11
Let's call it a flame rather than a gout. Sable Crane's reblazon seems correct. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 15:48:07
So fixing the typos while we're at it:

Purpure, on a flame Or a salamander passant regardant gules


11: Dunstana Violet -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(Fieldless) On a wool-pack Or, a cross pommy goules

Submitted through the Barony of Northkeep

Consulting herald Ivo Blackhawk

Badge Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 10:58:34
if style of crosses can count for change then this one could be close to even the Templars but im not positive this is clear would think other eyes or even Laurel or Pelican decisions on this

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 14:53:48
Unless the Templars have a badge or arms using a wool-pack (or pillow or cushion) as the primary charge, this doesn't conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 17:31:45
Moreover, the Templars' crosses formy and plain should get at least a DC from a cross pommy, and quite likely an SC.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 14:53:57
No conflicts found.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 14:37:56
Concur. No conflicts observed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:10:26
At http://coblaith.net/Heraldry/Crosses/period.html#pomellyfamily Coblaith Mumnech gives multiple alternative blazons for this cross. I testify that no item involving any of those is remotely like the submission, so that need not concern our conflict hunters.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:12:36
No conflicts found.


12: Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2004, via Ansteorra.

Per pale gules and sable an orle Or

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Namron

Per pale gules and sable an orle Or

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 11:15:09
Im seeing a conflict with Isabeau Celeste de la Vallière The following device associated with this name was registered in August of 1994 (via the Outlands): Per pale gules and sable, a lion rampant within an orle Or. Im only seeing one change with the lion

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 14:55:47
Clear by removal of a primary charge (SENA A.5.E.1).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:10:59
Some changes are bigger than others.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 15:01:17
No conflicts found.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-07 20:07:50
Wonderfully simple device.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 19:08:18
No conflicts observed. How long did it take to find that hole?

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-29 08:59:39
About ten minutes, if I remember correctly.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 11:17:49
No conflict found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:14:17
Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia was registered 7/04 via Ansteorra. No conflicts found.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:20:52
Wonderful!

No conflicts found for this stunning simple device.


13: Ekaterina Stepanova doch'Novgorodskaia -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

(fieldless) A delf gules

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Namron

Badge Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 16:37:08
No conflicts found.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:00:58
no conflict found

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-07 20:12:30
I'm not convinced that this would not fall afoul of A.3.E.3. With it being fieldless, it would have the appearance of being a square badge of a single tincture with no division or charge, which A.3.E.3 forbids.

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-07 21:24:48
A note, as registered my name has a space between doch' and Novogorodskaia.

Also, to get this out of the way quickly, it does not violate A.3.E.3 because of this ruling from June 2002:

[(Fieldless) A delf azure] As noted in the April 2002 LoAR, "A 'shield shape' which is also a standard heraldic charge will be acceptable as a fieldless badge in a plain tincture, as long as the tincture is not one of the plain tinctures that is protected armory in the SCA". Since Azure is not protected armory in this SCA, a fieldless badge consisting of a delf azure is acceptable, and does not appear to be an independent display of arms. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 06/2002, A-Trimaris]

And just to establish that this didn't magically cease to apply, please find the post-SENA registration of an equivalent charge:

Raven's Cove, Barony of The following badge associated with this name was registered in July of 2013 (via Atlantia): (Fieldless) An inescutcheon sable. for Order of the Sable Shield

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 14:41:50
Thank you for the cited Ruling and re-iteration under SENA, Actuarius. No conflicts observed.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-09 00:04:13
Consider:Deirdre Planchet

The following badge associated with this name was registered in April of 2009 (via the East): (Fieldless) A billet gules transfixed by a needle fesswise azure.

The addition of the needle is the only DC I see.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-09 00:10:59
There's also a DC for fieldless versus fieldless.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 16:59:45
Appears clear from conflict.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 11:18:14
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:15:00
"Fieldless" needs to be capitalized. No conflicts found.


14: Else Schemmer von Snackenburg -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2016, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) On a weaving slea (shuttle) argent, a snake knowed azure

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Mooneschadowe

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:35:53
There exists a tool called a weaver's slea, and we have four times registered armory with one or more of them (with wandering apostrophes). It is illustrated at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/slea-weavers/, and does not resemble the submitted charge--which does, however, resemble one of the stick shuttles at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/shuttle-weavers/. It is noted in the latter article that "The first form [of stick shuttle] was at one time misblazoned in the Society as a 'weaver's slea', but that error has been corrected.".

So I believe a preferable blazon, also correcting "knowed", is:

(Fieldless) On a weaver's stick shuttle argent a snake nowed azure

and if Wreath wants fewer words he can easily delete.

(Most of the above repeated verbatim at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4463&dsn=74776#15 from the same submitter.)

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:17:50
Concur with the proposed reblazon by Michael Gerard Curtememoire, although "weaver" might safely be omitted - the most recent registrations were blazoned simply as "stick shuttle" ["(Fieldless) A stick shuttle fesswise sable." (Sarra atte Brouk, Badge, Jan 2016) and "(Fieldless) On a wooden stick shuttle proper three weaver's tablets argent." (Mahîn Bânû Tabrîzî, Badge, Jun 2016)].

No conflicts observed.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:23:47
no conflicts found

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 11:26:48
No conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:15:52
No conflicts found.


15: Else Schemmer von Snackenburg -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in July of 2016, via Ansteorra.

(fieldless) On a weaving slea (shuttle) azure a mullet of five points Or

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Mooneschadowe

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:37:11
There exists a tool called a weaver's slea, and we have four times registered armory with one or more of them (with wandering apostrophes). It is illustrated at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/slea-weavers/, and does not resemble the submitted charge--which does, however, resemble one of the stick shuttles at http://mistholme.com/dictionary/shuttle-weavers/. It is noted in the latter article that "The first form [of stick shuttle] was at one time misblazoned in the Society as a 'weaver's slea', but that error has been corrected.".

So I believe a preferable blazon is:

(Fieldless) On a weaver's stick shuttle azure a mullet of five points Or

and if Wreath wants fewer words he can easily delete.

(Most of the above repeated verbatim at https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4463&dsn=74776#14 from the same submitter.)

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:19:59
Concur with the proposed reblazon as in https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4463#14

Also no conflicts observed.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:21:32
no conflicts found with "(Fieldless) On a weaver's stick shuttle azure a mullet of five points Or "

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-29 11:33:30
Agree with the reblazon, no conflicts found.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:16:22
Ditto.


16: Emeline de Bourdeaulx -New Name & New Device

Chevronelly purpure and ermine, a griffin segreant within a bordure rayonny Or

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Sound most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Skorrgardr - Herald: Konrad Mailander

Emeline - An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris by Colm Dubh

http://heraldry.sca.org/names/paris.html "Emeline de Liniére"

de Bourdeaulx - Late Period Feminine Names from the South of France by Talan Gwynck http://heraldry.sca.org/names/latefrenchfem.html dated to 1514 locatative (Bordeaux)

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Skorrgardr - Herald: Ulrich Eisenhand

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-03 05:42:16
Docs check out.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 11:36:48
docs check no conflicts found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:39:08
Appears clear from conflict.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-18 02:57:59
If the submitter wants a 13th-century name, it might be worth letting her know that the primary source from which her given name was drawn also includes de Bordiauz, which has the same meaning as the submitted byname, according to Sara L. Uckleman's "DRAFT: Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/1292paris.pdf). Always nice when you can find a given name and a byname that were actually used in the same region and period.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:16:45
Docs check out.

Device Comments:

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 00:32:46
The primary charge gets a bit lost in all the other details. Normally I'd call the chevron portions here excellently ermined (if the griffin wasn't there it would be about perfect), but with a charge on top of them I'd suggest shifting the placement of the spots a bit - there is only 1 completely unobscured ermine spot on the whole emblazon.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 18:27:54
Moreover, the chiefmost spots get lost among the rayons.

If, as I hope, rather than being submitter's strong preference the ermine is merely an attempt to get as far as possible from other devices, she should be informed that it's neither necessary nor effective. Ermine spots don't count as a secondary charge group, so this device conflicts with Micheal mac Tomas's badge, May 1987, Azure, a hippogriff segreant within a bordure rayonny Or. Griffins conflict with our hippogriffs (back parts of horses being the only difference) at least since http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2001/10/01-10lar.html s.n. Alana Griffin (returns); so only 1 DC for the field. Switching to Chevronelly purpure and argent would visually simplify without losing any difference.

I would in fact urge moving the spots to a plain-edged bordure, viz.,
Chevronelly purpure and argent, a griffin Or and a bordure erminois

That would be at least minimally out of conflict with Tomas (above) and with each of the following that crowd this heraldic space:

Brion Anthony Uriel Tarragon's badge, Nov 2000, Azure, a griffin segreant Or within a bordure Or goutty de sang.

Caedmon of Jorvik's device, Feb 2000, Per pale gules and azure, a griffin segreant Or between in chief two swords argent, a bordure erminois

Meliore Gimigna Fioravanti's device, Jun 2006, Per pale gules and sable, a wingless griffin rampant queue-fourchy within a bordure Or

Elayne de Glanville's device, May 2012, Per pale vert and gules, a griffin Or and a bordure Or semy-de-lys gules

Miyake Nobuhiro's badge for Gryffen de Corwyn, Jun 2012, Per pale vert and sable, a griffin Or and a bordure ermine

Isabella de la Griffon d'Aquitaine's device, Feb 1998, Quarterly vert and gules, a griffin segreant, a bordure Or

William Castille's device, Jan 2016, Gules, a griffin segreant Or and a chief erminois

If there are any actual conflicts for this proposal, I hope they will be found by others.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:25:19
Concur with the conflict call versus "Azure, a hippogriff segreant within a bordure rayonny Or." (Micheal mac Tomas, Badge, May 1987) with only 1 DC for change to half the tincture of the field and nothing for the difference in type between a griffon and a hippogriff.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 17:36:25
The fields have no tincture in common--purpure and argent vs. azure--but still provide only a single DC.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 17:40:32
Our griffins are segreant by default, so this can be

Chevronelly purpure and ermine, a griffin within a bordure rayonny Or

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:25:46
no conflict found

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 12:08:33
See above. Micheal mac Tomas's badge is a conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:18:01
Agree that the combination of things makes it very difficult to identify the griffin. Agree with Iago that moving the ermine spots so that there is less overlapping might help the problem.


17: Francesca di Lucca -Resub Appeal of Laurel Return of Device

OSCAR finds the name on the Ansteorra LoI of October 14, 2016 as submitted.

Barry and per pale azure and argent

Northkeep - Herald: Thomas de Groet

This is a complete redesign of the rejected device; earlier commentary is not applicable.

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 00:16:14
For administrative purposes, this appears to be a resub, not an appeal.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-07 20:20:00
Not an appeal. It is a resubmission because there was no way to fix the issue given on the previous device and keep what the submitter wanted.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:27:19
no conflict seen

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-07 20:27:04
Design is taken from mid-1500s Florentine armorial found at http://www.yehudaheraldry.com/rolls/index.php/roll_c/rolls

Consider Serragli on the attached page.

1: Image 1

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 21:58:56
Consider the reblazon "Per pale barry argent and azure counterchanged" It makes conflict checking easier when considering SENA A5c1

"1. Blazons Which Must Be Considered: While we register the emblazon, rather than the blazon, most conflict checking is done from the blazon. Thus, when considering armory for purposes of possible conflict, all reasonable blazons for a specific design must be considered. You may not blazon your way out of conflict. Blazons that are unregisterable under our core style rules (such as blazons that would produce quaternary charges or contrast issues) or that require unlikely understandings of an armorial design do not need to be considered for conflict purposes, unless that blazon is due to the use of an Individually Attested Pattern, is due to voiding or fimbriation, or is the existing blazon of a piece of registered armory.

"... For example, three fesses must also be considered as barry. Thus, Gules, three fesses ermine must be considered both under that blazon and as Barry gules and ermine. This is true whenever armory uses three or more identical ordinaries."
http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5C1

Consider versus "Per pale argent and sable, three bars counterchanged." (Thomas Edward Dudley, Device, Apr 2002) Since both portions of the fields share a tincture (argent), I don't see a substatntial change under SENA A5F2 (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5F2), only a DC for change to half the tincture under SENA A5G1a (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5G1a)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 02:51:03
Took me a bit to see this; Master Tostig elided the step of reading Thomas as Per pale barry argent and sable counterchanged, which indeed makes both devices field-primary and only a single DC apart.

(Reading both as three bars counterchanged, I think we get a DC for changing half the tinctures of the field and another for changing half the tinctures of the bars. But that doesn't help.)

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-29 08:11:26
I disagree, Tostig. To quote SENA A.5.F.2: "If a new submission with a field divided into two sections, three sections, quarterly, or per saltire has changed the tincture of each section of that field and each has at least one tincture on the field that the other does not, the two are substantially different and do not conflict." This is divided in two sections (per pale), and each section has at least one tincture on the field that the other does not (azure vice sable). This is clear under this rule.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 11:59:56
The text is "a field divided into two sections, three sections, quarterly, or per saltire". It seems very clear to me that "two sections" would apply to Per pale argent and azure, not to the submission, which for the purposes of the rule is divided into sixteen sections, not two.

I think this is reinforced by a later statement (which I believe ought to be typeset as the second paragraph of the Example, but is not):

Paly azure and gules is not clear of conflict under this rule with Paly gules and argent because they are divided into multiple sections (such that the order of the tinctures makes little visual difference) and they share a tincture. This is true even for Paly of four parts. [Emphasis added.]

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:31:27
Thomas Dudly is not a concern. Consider the blanket permission to conflict:

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=76093

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2017-06-05 10:34:31
No longer a concern, at any rate. See below.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 11:02:11
Noted.

Taran The Wayward at 2017-05-29 14:01:30
I did a little poking around to see of there was a possibility of a LOPTC and found thus image at the Outlands OP. It may be worth a check of the archived submission, because I see the cited conflict more as a fess Barry than a field Barry.



http://wimble.outlandsheralds.org/individual_record.php?PersonID=2538

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 17:13:47
Hmmm. Suppose the emblazon there faithfully presents the registered emblazon, which I've just requested from the College archivist @ heraldry.sca.org, and hope to post here soon after I receive it. Must we consider that the registered blazon could indeed be interpreted to be far more like this submission? Do we petition our Sovereigns to reblazon Thomas as Per pale argent and sable, on a fess two bars, all counterchanged, which would a) more accurately describe his registration and b) remove the technical conflict with this submission?

Shauna of Carrick Point at 2017-05-29 18:59:12
Archivist here - had one request already for the potential conflicting arms and that is on it's way. Will send the reply to this request shortly.

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2017-05-30 16:26:58
Here's the device from the submission archived on our Rampart Herald's Letter of Presentation: http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/2001-10-lop/lop1001.html

I am currently working on a blanket letter of permission to conflict for Thomas in any event, as he is no longer involved in the SCA.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-30 17:45:05
I have more or less at random previously found useful pre-OSCAR LoIs/LoPs via Net search. I have just bookmarked http://rampart.outlandsheralds.org/lopindex.php with heartfelt thanks to the Outlands College.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-30 17:53:08
My judgment, which I hope Liber's effort makes moot, is that the registered emblazon is not compatible with my proposed reblazon.

Christopher Devereux (Liber) at 2017-05-30 17:56:56
I have the letter in (virtual) hand. I'm just checking with our Rampart Herald to see about getting it on an LoI, and can otherwise provide it to whoever needs it in the meantime.

Khalidah bint Yahya'a (Rampart) at 2017-05-31 11:32:55
Received just in time to be posted to the May 2017 LoI, and link left to said LoI in a comment below. ;)

Khalidah bint Yahya'a (Rampart) at 2017-05-31 11:31:25
A Blanket Permission to Conflict was obtained by Thomas Edward Dudley - in case it is found to be needed - and it has been posted to the May 2017 LoI via the Outlands. https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4544


18: Gwenllian verch Madyn -New Household Name & New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in February of 2015, via Ansteorra.

House of the Black Phoenix

(Fieldless) a phoenix sable

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Haldtre - Herald: Brigida Von Munchen

the household name follows the pattern of "color + animal" or "color + heraldic charge" pattern of inn signs based on "English Sign Names" by Meri ingean Briain meic Donnchada http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/inn

sable - heraldic color meaning black https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sable

Phoenix - period heraldic charge http://mistholme.com/dictionary/phoenix

**submitter was asked to change name from "sable phoenix" to "black phoenix" at Gulf Wars**

Submitted at Gulf Wars - Haldtre

Household Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-03 11:41:55
No conflicts docs check out

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:43:13
Appears clear from conflict. Out of curiousity, what was wrong with sable phoenix?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-06 21:19:04
We used to have a problem with using heraldic colors in order names, but I think we got past that. If so, what WAS the problem?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:19:25
Looks OK.

Badge Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-02 23:15:59
While the red on the flame may be there to show contrast, it blurs the line on what tincture the flame is supposed to be.

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-03 00:33:18
Agreed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 19:05:39
We don't expect to see detailing in red, and even less when there is also white detailing.

Konstantia Kaloethina (Greek Fire) at 2017-05-09 21:00:31
I agree with Sable Crane.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:31:30
no conflicts being seen

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-04 10:21:10
As emblazoned, I see potential conflict with Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin (Fieldless) A demi-raven displayed sable issuant from flames proper. (December of 2004 via the West).

1 DC for fieldless. Possibly a DC for raven versus phoenix (there would normally be, but with the raven rising from flames it's a bit iffy, and I haven't been able to find a precedent either way). Possible a DC for tincture of half the charge, but with the red detailing of the flames it isn't quite half.

If redrawn without the red detailing this would definitely be clear.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 13:02:07
We have a precedent for raven displayed vs. eagle displayed.

http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2012/11/12-11cl.html#6m "From Wreath: Blazoning Fun -- Non-Eagles Displayed": "... In the case of a raven displayed, a fairly popular charge lately, versus an eagle displayed, there is neither a substantial nor a distinct change."

Since a phoenix is nothing more than a demi-eagle issuant from flames, it must be "neither a substantial nor a distinct change" from a demi-raven issuant from flames, unless the flames differ.

There is a representation of Dorothea's badge at http://rolls.westkingdom.org/rolls/kodorotheaofcaermyrddin1089.html, reproduced below. I do not think we would learn more by getting the registered emblazon from our College archivist, but anyone who disagrees should contact her, archivist@sca.heraldry.org.

1: Image 1

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 17:29:06
The red could be seen as an attempt at fimbriation, and because the charge doesn't meet the requirements for fimbriation, it risks being returned at Laurel.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 18:32:40
Has submitter been asked yet to remove it? Surely there's time to switch a new emblazon in, and it's not as though we're going to find new conflicts!

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-07 16:23:35
I can ask submitter to change if you wish

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-07 16:58:24
If you make her aware of the commentary above, in particular avoiding the conflict with Dorothea and not risking return for a failed perceived attempt at fimbriation, asking her to change should be superfluous.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 17:23:39
New badge received from submitter

1: Image 1

Iago ab Adam at 2017-05-08 21:02:54
Excellent. It fixes both the style and potential conflict issues. Also, it's a gorgeous badge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 13:30:56
Concur. The charge larger to "own" the space better would also be nice, particularly if we'd been bright enough to suggest it earlier ...

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:37:33
Wonderful replacement emblazon.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:36:23
Thank you, Asterisk.

No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:23:03
No conflicts found. Agree that removing the gules details is a Good Thing.


19: Lya Gossard -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Lassar Ruad(4/2004)

Argent, a goose roussant wings displayed sable

No major changes.
Sound (Lee-ah Gos-ard) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Loch Soillier - Herald: Sofya la Rus

Lya - English name. Lya Carr christened 1582 IGI Batch C05576-5

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQYR-WZJ

Gossard - English byname. Robert Gossard christened 1582 IGI Batch C04317-1

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMNQ-9VG

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Loch Soillier - Herald: Sofya la Rus

Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-04 05:44:06
Docs check out. There is no 'Gossard' registered in the online O&A.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:32:32
docs check out, no conflict found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 19:46:43
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:23:30
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:33:36
no conflicts found

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 20:55:57
Given the leg posture, my initial blazon of the posture was one for quadropeds - rampant.

The figure is for the Badge Change for Michael Rhys Armitage. "Vert, a swan rousant wings displayed argent collared and chained Or, a bordure compony gules and argent." registered Jan 2015

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-28 21:33:57
Our swans being rousant by default, http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#default, the first image below, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=69019 for Adair of Makyswell, blazoned ... two swans respectant counterchanged and the second, from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=2281 for Svana in kyrra Haraldsdóttir, blazoned ... a swan rousant to sinister ..., show heraldically identical postures.

I think the blazon offered for the submission is accurate, with a minor spelling correction:

Argent, a goose rousant wings displayed sable

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 23:45:35
I'm not sure of the purpose of the addorsed registrations when my concern was the allusion to rampant given the displayed wings and long legs at right angles -- Rampant requires 4 limbs and addorsed wings cannot give that impression. {The emblazon immediately grabbed by the scruff of the neck and drug will me, nil me,to ... "(Fieldless) A duck rampant argent, billed and membered Or, in base two barrulets wavy couped azure." ("Aelflaed of Duckford, Badge [for House Duckford], Nov 1980) [ADDENDUN: The emblazon for Michael Rhys Armitage above, with its' short legs close to the ground - the standard rising placement - and neck posture left me alone]}

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 02:59:18
My first image shows longish legs at right angles, which I took to be the similarity to rampant you saw.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:24:09
"rousant" A goose-stepping goose. Hmm. No conflicts found.


20: Mary Whytehorne -New Alternate Name & New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2013, via Ansteorra.

Lessandra della Torre

Per pale sable and azure a bowen cross, and on a chief argent, three bowen crosses sable

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Sound (Less-andra dell-a Toh-ray) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch

Lessandra - feminine given name from late period Italian Women's Names: Florence https://medievalscotland.org/jes/Nuns/Florence.shtml

della Torre - Family name - ibid

Correction to Alternate Name (2017-Jun-07 14:06:09): Due to conflict, submitter requests the additional given name <Francesca> for <Lessandra Francesca della Torre>

<Francesca> is found in Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale's "Italian Renaissance Women's Names" (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/italian.html) as well as Juliana de Luna's "Names in 15th Century Florence and her Dominions: the Condado" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/).

Juliana de Luna's "Names from Sixteenth Century Venice" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html) notes that "the woman labeled as <Maria Poselina> may be an example" of a feminine double given name, and that compound and double given names appear occasionally for men. Additionally, SENA Appendix A notes that double given Italian names are acceptable.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch

Correction to Device (2017-Jun-07 14:06:59): Submitter's current device, Mary Whytehorne, device reg. 3/13 via Ansteorra: Sable, a Bowen cross and on a chief argent three Bowen crosses sable will be retained as a badge per submitter's request.

Alternate Name Comments:

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-03 05:44:03
Docs check out. Nice name!

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 21:50:09
I hope she's not making the last two syllables of Italian <Lessandra> identical with English "Sandra".

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-04 05:38:01
Why?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 08:45:15
What I mean is that if that's what she's asking for in her "Sound" request, she'll be frequently disappointed.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:38:50
closest i can find is Alessandra della Torre This name was registered in December of 2015 (via the Middle). which could cause sounding conflict i would believe

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 09:49:06
No, it's a syllable longer, so technically clear for sound under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN3C2, "Substantial Change to One Syllable". However, under the same section, the names must be at least two letters different in spelling, and it fails that test. And there's no other test it can pass for spelling.

Conflict. Must be returned for further work.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:16:23
Agree with the conflict.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-05-09 06:19:54
Since there is a conflict would she consider stunt documentation for the spelling Lexandra from Northeastern Italy for a name that could have existed in SCA period? It wouldn't have the same sound that she wants though.
Showing the Veneto and Tuscan regional 'x'-'s' switch in name pairs there are 1512, Ixabeta = Elisabetta; 1529 Alexandro = Alessandro; 1400-1532 Maximian = Massimiliano; 1400-1524 Tomaxo = Tommaso. In place names: 1444-1532 Axolo = Asolo, Trevixo = Treviso. "Vicentine Names from the 14th to 16th Centuries" https://s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/vicentine.html

Also "Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names" by Arval Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek, Table of given names. "Names that were found to be especially common in studies of Tuscan names are marked with an asterisk, *. The article shows Blasio* and Blaxio. https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14given.html#table

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:25:59
Docs check out. Agree about the probable conflict with Alessandra della Torre.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-06-01 07:18:39
Would the name Alexandria clear the conflict if the submitter agreed?
DMNES, s.n. Alexandra. In Italy, dated to 1513x1521 Alexandra LeoX p. 14, Alexandria ibid. p. 17. http://dmnes.org/name/Alexandra
Original source url is: http://dmnes.org/cite/Alexandria/1513x1521/LeoX

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-01 16:29:02
It would indeed clear that conflict by a few letters and two syllables; none of the dozens of registered <Alexandria>s looks to conflict, nor anything similar to the byname that I'm finding.

Anybody else want to check?

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-06 17:52:13
Submitter would prefer to keep Lessandra, and is considering a change to something such as <della Mare>.

Life exploded, so I haven't done any checking on this option!

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-06 18:23:43
Submitter would also accept < de la Mare> which I believe I can document.

Submitter would like to know if adding a middle name, <Francesca>, would clear the conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-06 21:15:39
Adding that middle name would clear the sound conflict by three more syllables and appearance by an awful lot of letters. Moreover, SENA Appendix A has no problem with double given names in Italian.

However, submitter must give and be stated to give permission for that addition, since it is a major change that she otherwise does not allow.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-06 22:59:02
Thanks! I will let her know. I have the request via email and will formalize in the external letter, if we can document <Francesca>.

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-07 14:52:44
added above, but copying here as well.

Due to conflict, submitter requests the additional given name <Francesca> for <Lessandra Francesca della Torre>

<Francesca> is found in Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale's "Italian Renaissance Women's Names" (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/italian.html) as well as Juliana de Luna's "Names in 15th Century Florence and her Dominions: the Condado" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/).

Juliana de Luna's "Names from Sixteenth Century Venice" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html) notes that "the woman labeled as <Maria Poselina> may be an example" of a feminine double given name, and that compound and double given names appear occasionally for men. Additionally, SENA Appendix A notes that double given Italian names are acceptable.

Maridonna Benvenuti at 2017-06-07 15:12:26
Lovely choice to clear the conflict!

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:23:27
Adjusting caps and commas:

Per pale sable and azure, a Bowen cross and on a chief argent three Bowen crosses sable

I think this is about as near thin-line as we let charges get. Making each of the crosses about 40% larger would be good.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:40:25
Concur with the reblazon.

No conflicts observed.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:37:01
no conflict found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:04:59
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:27:59
Mary Whytehorne, device reg. 3/13 via Ansteorra: "Sable, a Bowen cross and on a chief argent three Bowen crosses sable." If this is the same person, and she wants this for her alternate name, it must be registered as a badge because we allow only one device per person.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-31 14:40:08
Great catch, Green Anchor! I agree. This should be an administrative return or the submitter should resubmit the emblazon on the badge form as submitter as a device already registered to her name. That is, unless there is some rule I'm missing that allows the badge to go up on the device form and just get registered as a badge at Laurel.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 15:54:37
The other possibilities are for submitter to request that upon passage of this device her previous one be switched to a badge or released.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:44:07
I concur - I would suggest following up with the submitter for feedback before a return.

This does not violate the Sword and Dagger rule (SENA A3D1) "Charge types with identical blazons are allowed to be both on the field and in a tertiary charge group or in two separate tertiary charge groups." http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D1

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-06 17:52:38
She would like to retain her previous device as a badge.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-06 21:17:27
So long as that gets said in the headmatter ...

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-06-06 22:55:22
I'll make sure it's noted in the external letter.


21: Mary Whytehorne -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in March of 2013, via Ansteorra.

(Fieldless) A bowen cross argent

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:24:31
With the proper name capped:

(Fieldless) A Bowen cross argent

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:36:06
no conflict found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 16:57:06
Appears clear from conflict.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:39:32
No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:28:49
"Bowen cross" Not sure which crosses this would conflict with. There are several items of the form "(Fieldless) A (whatever) cross argent." Rohese also found the following: Eilonwen verch Gryffyn, reg, 2/96 (via the Middle): "(Fieldless) A Bowen knot crosswise argent." I don't think there is any real visual difference between a Bowen knot crosswise and a Bowen cross. Eilonwen verch Gryffyn: reg. 2/96 via the Middle: "Per pale vert and sable, a Bowen knot crosswise argent." I don't think there is any real visual difference between a Bowen knot crosswise and a Bowen cross. Ellesbeth Donofrey, reg. 9/04(via the East: "(Fieldless) A cross of five mascles argent." A Bowen cross and a cross of mascles are visually very similar.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:04:53
"The 'Bowen cross' is a Bowen knot turned crosswise, with its loops made angular" according to http://mistholme.com/dictionary/cross-bowen/.

But we don't need to guess. http://coblaith.net/Heraldry/Crosses/SCA.html#Bowen informs us that "A Bowen cross is not significantly different [i.e., no DC] from a bowen knot crosswise (April, 2004 LoAR) or a cross of five mascles (August, 2006 LoAR)." These are respectively http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2004/04/04-04lar.html#29, Gwynaeth Angharad of Glamorgan, and http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2006/08/06-08lar.html#340, Pierre de Tours.

So two conflicts.


22: Michall Morison -New Name & New Device

Per pale argent and azure, a talbot sejant and an orle sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture most important.

Chemin Noir - Herald: Annais de Montgomerie

Michall - Academy of Saint Gabriel, report #1137

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1137.txt

Michall Myreman, 1534

Morison - England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991: reference ID 403, Indexing

Project Batch Number B05327-7, GS Film #1450444

http://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHBZ-W5K

George Morison, burial date:22 Aug 1627, burial place: Elsham,

Lincoln, England

England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991: reference ID p25, Indexing

Project Batch Number B39474-6, GS Film #1541959

http://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J85R-QMF

Henrye Morison, burial date:31 Aug 1590, burial place: Coningsby,

Lincoln, England

Chemin Noir - Herald: Annais de Montgomerie

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:43:41
no conflict found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:16:50
Appears clear from conflict.

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-07 21:36:33
"Morison" also found in Aryanhwy's "Index of Scots names found in Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue" s.n. Morrison, dated to 1558. http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/scots/dost/morrison.html

Similarly "Michall" appears in Aryanhwy's "English Given Names from 16th and Early 17th C Marriage Records" g.n. Michael, dated to 1595. http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/parishes/parishes.html

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:29:57
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:42:40
no conflict found

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-29 15:43:11
Concur. No conflicts observed.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:30:07
No conflicts found.


23: Miguel Neves de Lisboa -New Name & New Device

Argent, five towers in saltire within a bordure dentuculata gules

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Portuguese) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Barony of Northkeep - Herald: Sofya la Rus

Miguel - given name in "Portuguese Names from the 16th Century: Letters from the Court of King John III"

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/portugal16/

Neves - Surname based or locative by name "dos Neves" found in "Portuguese Names from the 16th Century: Letters from the Court of King John III"

https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/portugal16/

de Lisboa - locative byname documented as protected royal Portuguese heraldic title from the 16th century per 1/2008 LOAR

Submitter okay with dropping "de Lisboa" if necessary or changing to "das Neves"

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Barony of Northkeep - Herald: Sotya la Rus

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-03 06:56:40
Francisca Domingas Neves, died 1594, Santa Maria Madalena, Alvaiazere, Leiria, Portugal. Batch no. B88521-4
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F2DS-KPY)

So maybe in late period it wasn't solely used as a locative byname?

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:46:47
no conflicts found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:20:29
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:30:56
Given name doc checks out. Found Joam das Neves in the source, but no "dos Neves". No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 21:58:59
Fixing the un-Spanish typo:

Argent, five towers in saltire within a bordure denticulada gules

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:44:43
no conflict found

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:31:22
Looks quite Iberian. No conflicts found.


24: Orazio d'Assisi -New Device

OSCAR thinks the name is registered as Orazio d'Assisi in September of 2010, via Ansteorra.

Azure crusily latin a wolf couchant regardant and on a chief argent three swallows volant gules

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bjornsborg - Herald: Taran the Wayward

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:05:34
More like

Azure crusilly Latin, a wolf couchant regardant and on a chief argent three swallows volant bendwise sinister gules

When viewed from too close, the crosses are indeed Latin, but I cannot be sure of that from proper viewing distance. They definitely need to be larger. I would also prefer them not to be so rigidly placed geometrically, alias "cut from cloth", though we really cannot penalize submitter for that choice.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:47:57
no conflict found

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-18 03:16:14
"The default crusilly is of crosses crosslet." (http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2002/08/02-08lar.html#G_ATLANTIA_4) I would therefore expect "crusilly Latin" to mean "semy of Latin crosses crosslet". I do see two items in the O&A that use "crusilly Latin" and show plain Latin crosses, but I'm not sure why.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-18 04:16:02
Given that crosslets are not implied at heraldry.sca.org/loar/2008/01/08-01lar.html s.n. Baldewin van Aaken by crusilly formy, at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/11/15-11lar.html#58, Brian Ó hUilliam, by crusilly Celtic, at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2015/11/15-11lar.html#183, Caterina Maddalena dei Gabrielli, by crusilly patonce, or at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2014/03/14-03lar.html#62, Catherine Ambrose, by crusilly flory--and that I would be hard-put to make any of those crossletted--I think our usage of crusilly Latin follows an established pattern, viz., replacing "crosslet" with a different adjective rather than adding to its implied presence.

I believe that the use of crusilly plain for Cathal MacLean's device you cite is also consistent with that pattern.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-19 00:39:24
Crusilly formy, crusilly Celtic, crusilly patonce, and crusilly flory all strike me as ways of saying, "crusilly, but not of the default form--this instead". Formy, Celtic, patonce, and flory are all parallel to crosslet, describing distinct period cross shapes. Latin is quite a different matter. It is an amendment that can be made to any cross, including all of those. A Latin cross crosslet is utterly unremarkable. There's no reason that adding "Latin" to a blazon should indicate its default crosslet-iness should be abandoned.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:33:46
Agree with Gerard's reblazon of the crosses. No conflicts found. The swallows are not really volant because they're not flying fesswise. They're diving. Possibly they could be blazoned as "volant bendwise sinister to base'.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:10:38
That works! And with another "tweak":

Azure crusilly Latin, a wolf couchant regardant and on a chief argent three swallows volant bendwise sinister to base wings displayed gules

If Wreath wants less detail, he'll easily delete.


25: Paul Gerard Williamson -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2011, via Ansteorra.

Per chevron azure and argent, a fox courant contourney

Barony of Elfsea - Herald: P. Rutilius Caprarius

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 11:50:10
The line of division is too low to be per chevron. It looks like a point enhanced. Also the fox is a bit high. It's not quite in chief, but also not centered. If it were drawn as per chevron, the position would be fine. Should probably follow up to see if the submitter truly desires this depiction or wants it truly per chevron.

Proposed reblazon: Azure, a fox courant contourney and a point enhanced argent.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:12:15
We have never registered a point enhanced and given the frequency with which our Sovereigns have referenced the decree on chevrons at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2011/05/11-05cl.html, I doubt we will. I believe submitter needs to choose between an ordinary point and a correctly divided per chevron and place his beast accordingly.

And a very fine beast it is, I think.

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-04 13:35:43
Agreed, Gerard.

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 17:40:23
That is because this is a point pointed, and a search in OSCAR will show examples like this. Bruce's Third Edition of the Pictorial Dictionary states that the point pointed is triangular with curved sides, but can be drawn with straight sides.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 18:54:48
Apologies. I should have said above "an ordinary point pointed".

I should also have said, what had not yet come to consciousness, that as submitted this is probably just at the upper limit of an acceptable point pointed. Cf. the registered items below. They are respectively for Briony Kortsdottir from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=68742, Cecile de Perches from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=31029, and Marthe Elsbeth of Oak Hill from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=4786.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:50:05
To me for this to be per chevron needs to be higher, other then that i am not finding conflict with this device

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:51:27
It is not a per chevron.

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-09 16:19:16
This either needs to be redrawn or reblazoned, as it is that is definitely not per chevron. I suspect that even if it were reblazoned they'd look askance at an uncharged point pointed of that size.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 16:55:06
Didn't I do that?

Azure, a fox courant contourny and a point pointed argent

Ekaterina Stepanova doch' Novgorodskaia (Actuarius) at 2017-05-20 16:19:08
Apologies, I didn't make the transition from thought 1 to thought 2 clear. My concern here is that with the current size it might be unacceptably large as a "point pointed", since it takes up more than a third of the shield's height, which seems excessive.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-20 16:46:42
I again recommend comparing the registered items I've posted above to the submission.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:35:25
Agree with Gerard's reblazon. Consider Wolfram of Bear Mountain, reg. 11/93 via the West: "Azure, a wolf passant contourny and a point pointed argent." There are no DC's between wolf and fox nor between passany and courant. If the client redrew to make it match the submitted blazon, there would be other conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:12:40
Sighhhhhh! Before I go to all the trouble of hunting up exemplars, I suppose I should try checking for conflicts so obvious even I can find them.


26: Ragnar Svensson -New Name & New Device

Per chevron azure and argent. a fox courant contourney

No major changes.
Sound (Rahg-nahr Svehn-son) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch - Herald: Sofya la Rus

Ragnar - Old Swedish variant given name per http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONNames.shtml

Svensson - patronymic byname "Aellinger Svensson" date 1394 in Diplomatarium

Norvegicum vol 5 no 360 http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_field_eng.html

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bordermarch

Per pale gules and argent two arms couped with hands in fists embowed and counterembowed counter changed

Correction to Device (2017-May-04 17:05:22): The blazon as listed is incorrect.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-03 07:13:59
Bringing name elements closer together in time and language:
SDHK-nr: 15654, 1401, Swedish-language document
Ragnar i Hakastom
(https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sdhk?EndastDigitaliserat=false&SDHK=15654)
SDHK-nr: 16131, 1403, Swedish-language document
"Alle the mæn thetta breeff høra ælla see helsom vi Ragnar i Eeke ok Olafuer min son..."
[All the men that hear ot see this complete letter, we Ragnar in Eeke, and Olafuer my son...]
(https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sdhk?EndastDigitaliserat=false&SDHK=16131)

SMP sn. Folke, page 18 of the PDF
(http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Folke.pdf)
Folke Suensson j Holme, 1464

I would assume that u and v would be interchangeable during this period, so Svensson is just as likely in Sweden?

Eg. SMP sn. Brud, page 2 of the PDF (http://130.238.4.107/SMP/pdf/Brud.pdf)
Suenonis Brudsson, Latin, 1372
Suen Brotson, 1372
Swen Bruzson, 1381
Sven Bruson, 1381.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:02:15
no conflict on either set of docs i see

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:21:44
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:35:58
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:19:00
Apparent cut-&-paste error. Based on blazons and emblazons of arms embowed in the OSCAR era, I suggest:

Per pale gules and argent, a pair of arms embowed, thumbs extended, counterchanged

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-03 22:20:37
I think those are thumbs.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 23:18:21
Correct. And now corrected above.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:51:40
no conflict found

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:00:48
Appears clear from conflict. Is the line art version a camera phone photo?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:36:45
No conflicts found. Some of us felt this is not period symmetry.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:13:50
No worse than a pair of wings--though doubtless less common.


27: Rebekah Aleyn -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Ruaphoic, Clann(10/1990)

Gules, a talbot rampant argent and in canton a mullet of six points, Or

Submitter desires a feminine name.
Meaning (Mother's first name and close to my last name) most important.

Haldtre

Rebekah - "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch

(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWH5-R2F : 30 December 2014)

Rebekah Acred, 11 Mar 1611; citing Roxby Cum Risby, Lincoln,

England, reference; FHL microfilm 504,744

Aleyn - "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch

(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR8S-SQR :30December2014)

Nicolai Aleyn, in entry for Ricardus Aleyn, 24 Apr 1540; citing

Saint Stephen, Norwich, Norfolk, England, reference; FHL microfilm

993,969, 993,970

Haldtre - Herald: SCA Heraldry Chat (Facebook)

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:56:48
no conflict found, docs check out

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:22:25
Appears clear from conflict.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:24:29
The batch numbers for familysearch.org should be included in the summary. C03119-3 & C10975-1 respectively.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-06 21:20:57
And fortunately they're among the acceptable numbers: Cran-Berry Jelly Keeps Mary Pretty, the mnemonic.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:37:46
Docs check out. No conflicts found. Rohese did find simpler documentation: Name Rebecka Aleyn Gender Female Death Date 30 Jan 1631 Death Place St. Bride'S Parish, London, England Father's Name Giles Aleyn Indexing Project (Batch) Number B05192-7 System Origin England-EASy GS Film number 574354 -- "England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZLD-V5S : 24 December 2014), Rebecka Aleyn, ; citing St. Bride'S Parish, London, England, reference ; FHL microfilm 574,354

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 09:59:00
No conflict found

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 19:41:47
Consider

"1. Clarity of Charge Groups: Charges in an armorial design must be clearly organized into charge groups. Depictions of charges that blur the distinction between charge groups will not be allowed. Depictions of charges that that are ambiguous as to what sort of charge group they belong to will not be allowed. Documented armorial depictions will only be allowed if a method for describing them in blazon can be devised...

"For example, the design a water bouget between in cross four estoiles must be clearly drawn to be either as a large primary water bouget and four smaller secondary estoiles or blazoned as in cross a water bouget and four estoiles and drawn as five charges of approximately equal visual weight. If the estoiles are drawn just a little smaller than the water bouget, it is not clear if the estoiles are intended to be part of the primary charge group or a secondary charge group. Such a design will not be registered...."
http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3D1.

The talbot, although the larger charge, is not centered on the per pale line. It and the mullet are centered on the per bed line. This give them the arrangement of co-primaries but the visual weight of primary and secondary charges.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-28 21:21:56
In other words, this is a poor representation of the submitted blazon, and a worse one of Gules, in bend a mullet of six points Or and a talbot rampant argent.

Concur that submitter should be contacted for a better layout.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-05-28 23:10:33
No, I wouldn't phrase it as poor at all. The charges are large enough to be identifiable and the coloring is so well done I had to magnify the graphic to double-check and make sure it wasn't done by a computer. Yes, IMO the proportions are off enough to be unregisterable, but getting alignment and proportions right is an art that takes practice. (In fact, its' difficulty is prevalent enough that a Cover Letter addressed the issue after this Submission was mailed http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2017/03/17-03cl.html#2)

My attempts at each:

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-29 02:56:47
I think you've gone overboard in each case; the mullet could be at lest 50% bigger in #1, and at least a third smaller in #2, and still present correctly.

But these certainly make the point.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:39:03
Both charges should be drawn larger. No conflicts found. Here's my suggestion for a redraw.

1: Image 1

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:14:25
Hope submitter approves.


28: Rigantmelt filia Artomagli -New Name [DOCS] & New Device

Sable, a bear passant and a demi-sun issuant from chief argent eclipsed azure

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.
Language most important.
Culture (5-6th Century Brythonic/Welsh) most important.

Wiesenfeuer - Herald: Grimolfr Einarsson

Rigantmelt - Names of Women of the Brythonic North in the 5-7th Centuries: Rhieinfellt Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (Heather Rose Jones) gives Rigantmelt as a possible spelling in the second-to-last paragraph http://heraldry.sca.org/names/brythonic/rhieinfellt.html

filia Artomagli -See attached pages, a reply to the submitter from Mistress Tangwystyl verch morgant Glasvryn (Heather Rose Jones) from a discussion they had on the topic in the SCA_Welsh Yahoo Groupin 2006, which she explains how she arrived at this construction. The most relevant paragraph has been emphasized in bold text. Original conversation at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/SCA_welsh/conversations/messages/1212

Wiesenfeuer - Herald: Grimolfr Einarsson

The above submission has images. To view them, see the URLs below:
#1 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-04-28/17-51-13_Rigantmelt_filia_Artomagli_doc_1.JPG
#2 https://oscar.sca.org/showimage.php?I=2343/2017-04-28/17-51-13_Rigantmelt_filia_artomagli_doc_2.JPG

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:05:11
i am unable to clearly see the documentation, however if they are clear i see no conflicts also with this name

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-05 17:56:31
Blue Talbot makes an excellent point regarding the surname documentation.

I opened image #1 above, copied it, pasted it into Paint, rotated and enlarged it, and found the result perfectly unreadable. The link in the headmatter to Yahoo Groups yields, "Oops! You need to be a member to perform this action."

Unless Asterisk can supply us a readable version, I doubt that either the commenters at the next level or Pelican will be satisfied.

Rebekah Aleyn (Asterisk (incoming)) at 2017-05-08 17:09:05
Documents rescanned

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-09 13:27:32
Rightway up is nice, but the documents remain unreadable. If Asterisk will click them here, I think she will agree.

I believe, after failed treatment in both Paint and Photopad (which offers sharpening) that there simply aren't enough pixels available. I can sometimes see the word "Latin" as I zoom in and out, but not the whole text.

Grímólfr Einarsson at 2017-05-16 18:26:10
These should help.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-17 02:35:15
They do.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:23:17
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:42:48
Name docs check out, thanks to Grimólfr. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 11:04:13
no conflict seen

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:43:12
No conflicts found.


29: Rixende de Rouen -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 1995, via Meridies.

Azure, a bend invected counter-invected between a dragonfly and a rose Or

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Elfsea

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:33:10
The blazoner is thinking of fesses embattled. This is just

Azure, a bend invected between a dragonfly and a rose Or

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 17:49:23
Actually, this is a bend engrailed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 18:58:10
I do know the difference when I think about it.

Azure, a bend engrailed between a dragonfly and a rose Or

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:48:15
The dragonfly could well be a good bit larger, and the rose slightly so, but that's at most an artist's note level of problem. Of course if we could persuade submitter to redraw ...

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 11:32:05
I concur that the dragonfly can fill out the shield better, no conflicts found

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 18:59:09
No conflicts as emblazoned or as misblazoned?

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:43:50
Agree that the secondaries should be larger. No conflicts found.


30: Rixende de Rouen -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in August of 1995, via Meridies.

(fieldless) A dragonfly Or, forewinged azure and hindwinged vert

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Elfsea

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:49:40
Particularly given the highly unusual treatment of its wings, the charge should be about twice its present size.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 11:05:17
larger yes, more identifable, however no conflict found

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:44:32
Do the wing tinctures count for half the charge? If not, then consider: Maol Anna de Chassant, reg. f4/94 via the East: "Per fess sable and gules, a dragonfly Or." One DC for fieldlessness - is there another for changing around half the tincture?

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:19:01
I'd say it's at least half, and yes: http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5G3a.


31: Samuel Dewy -Resub Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in November of 2012, via Ansteorra.

Gules, two arrows inverted in saltire and overall a sword inverted argent and in base a dragon head cabossed regardant sable

Northkeep - Herald: Geoffrey de Gournay

**** An earlier version of this device was submitted last July.

http://oscar.sca.org/kingdom/kingsingleitem.php?kingdom=8&id=66071

It was returned in kingdom, and can be seen on this letter of decision

http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/ILoD/ilod201607.pdf

Here's what was said about it : Unfortunately, this must be returned for work. Inverted arrows have points up, should these been inverted? The point and dragon's head need to be drawn smaller, and the sword and arrows need to be drawn larger/beefier. It is also suggested to remove the connection between the sword and the point. ****

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 11:07:38
We have the same question as before concerning the arrows. It seems the submitter wants the point down, which would mean NOT inverted. We need to blazon the base enarched, which would be a mount. The dragon head is not cabossed as it has the neck. This is couped. It is also not regardant, but guardant. I hate to do this to the submitter, but is the mount now too small? He complied with the request to make the point pointed smaller, but did this go too far?

Proposed reblazon: Gules, two arrows in saltire and overall a sword inverted and on a mount argent a dragon's head couped sable.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:46:34
The mount here is smaller than it ought to be, but probably registerable. Cf. the image below from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=59929 for Andrew della Luna, which was registered without comment. The other cases of on a mount I found in the OSCAR era have all been larger, though significantly smaller than the point in the version previously returned to submitter.

1: Image 1

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-04 13:37:25
My concern with the mount is not the mount itself, but rather the identifiability of the dragon head. For a mount, it is a fine mount.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 14:03:50
At 20:1 viewing distance it's clear enough for me to accept.

Of course on a mount the same size, Andrew's cinquefoil is bound to be easier to identify than the dragon's head here, so that comparison's not evidence.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 22:54:17
I think I concur with Sable Crane's reblazon.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:08:16
got to concur about the identifiability of the dragons head, get some distance back looses something, regardless i see no conflicts and if it can be redrawn for it to go forward should be ok

Geoffrey de Gournay at 2017-05-08 16:03:22
Greetings All, I have spoken with the submitter. He is agreeable to changing the blazon to correlate with the device drawing. As to the size of the mount, if a re-draw of the device with a larger mount and couped dragon's head is required for submssion advancement, we shall comply.

Geoffrey, Northkeep herald

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:45:35
The sword is not overall as it does not overlie the mound or the head. The head is not cabossed, but couped. "Gules, two arrows in saltire surmounted by a sword inverted argent, on a mound argent a dragon's head couped sable." No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:20:12
Concur with reblazon.


32: Sigvarðr SkarfR -New Name

Submitter desires a masculine name.

Northkeep - Herald: Geoffrey de Gournay

Sigvarðr - Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Studia Marklandica

I. Olney, MD: Markland Medieval Militia. 1977 p14 s.n. Sigvarðr

Academy of St Gabriel Report# lists <Sigvarðr> as Old Norse

and appropriate for the 8th to 10th centuries

https://www.librarything.com/series/Studia+Marklandica

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?1783+0

SkarfR - Academy of St Gabriel Report #2811 lists <Otkell Skarfs son Hallkels Sonar> in the late 10th Century Iceland

http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2811+0

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-05-03 07:21:53
Simplifying:
Geirr Bassi p. 14 sn. Sigvarðr
Lind Personbinamn, col. 316-7 sn. Skarfr, has:
Helgi sk[arfr] Geirleifs [son], in the Landnámabók
Þorsteinn skaruær, skarfr, Norway, 1293
Þorgeirr skarfr, Iceland, 1353

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 11:35:10
no conflict found and like ffride's documentation

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:55:53
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:46:33
Given name doc checks out, but that given for the surname only supports it as a given name. Does our system use those terminal capital R's? No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:32:18
They're permitted. http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/04/16-04lar.html#63, registering <UlfR bloðfotr Falgeirsson>:

The question was raised whether the given name should be changed to the standard form Ulfr. The Letter of Intent cited the following precedent:
On the other hand, runic spellings, such as those recorded in Lena Peterson's Nordiskt runnamslexikon, preserve pronunciations that were never recorded in the Latin alphabet. This is especially true for forms from Old East Norse, which is poorly represented in Latin alphabet documents compared to Old West Norse. Therefore, we will register forms of runic names that have been transcribed following a standard scholarly system, such as the header forms in Lena Peterson's work. ... [December 2010 Cover Letter]
(Square brackets in original.)


33: Tuathal O'sheils -New Name & New Device

Please consider the following possible conflicts identified by OSCAR (many will not be conflicts): Thallos Alexiou(4/2010)

Tuathal O'sheils

Azure, issuant from a mount an oak tree between a harp Or and a crane in its vigilance argent

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Sound (Irish Gaelic) most important.

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bjornsborg

Tuathal - Early modern Irish Gaelic given name per index of names in the Irish Annals: Tuathal medievalscotland.org

http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Tuathal.shtml

O'siadhail - Gaelic header form of anglicized Irish name

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/os/o-siadhail.php

O'sheill - from 16th and 17th century anglicized Irish names from Wolfe -

ibid

** Submitter prefers last name O'Sheill

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Bjornsborg

IAP for vert mount on azure

1) BSB 275 f65r - Insignia nobilium Patavinorum, impresa Ferrariensium, Pesariensium 1550-1555

Azure, 3 comets Or and a base vert (Benedetti)

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001422/images/index.html?seite=137&fip=193.174.98.30

2) BSB 273 f116 nsignia ... VIII. Insignia Venetorum nobilium III (IP-Z) 1550-1555.

Per pale gules and azure, a staff vert, a crown Or and a mount vert (Sonertin)

https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?c=viewer&bandnummer=bsb00001420&pimage=00235&lv= 1&v=100&l=en

[Asterisk : submission form describes staff as sable but that doesn't seem important]

3) Ibid f 117 Azure chape ploye argent, 3 crosses Or issuant from a mount vert (Sosegolli) https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?c=viewer&bandnummer=bsb00001420&pimage=237&v=100 &nav=&l=en

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-04 11:46:35
no conflict found, also found Sheill in Robert Sheill, Male, 24 Oct 1596 Saint John,Hackney,London,England M04215-1 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJPL-DMG

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-04 13:13:57
Nice, though it doesn't count as documenting the submitted <O'sheils> or his preferred <O'Sheill>. But then nothing in the headmatter here does, either.

However, in "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents" at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/SortedByAnglicizedSpelling_O8.shtml we have <O Sheill>--no apostrophe, but I wouldn't expect submitter to care given the rest matches!

I believe that's the documentation we should send up for the byname, with the full name as <Tuathal O Sheill>.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-09 22:55:30
Mari's article includes in the discussion up top:

The vast majority of Anglicized Irish forms of "O" and "Mac" style surnames listed in Woulfe that date to temp. Elizabeth I - James I are listed as O [Root] and M'[Root].

It is likely that Woulfe (or one of his sources) has normalized at least some of these names to this format since other examples from the Patent Rolls of James I found in Ewen show the formats Mc[Root] and O'[Root].
This means that if Woulfe has O Sheill, then it can also be registered as O'Sheill.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-10 08:58:34
All the better that he can have <Tuathal O'Sheill>!

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:56:06
Appears clear from conflict.

Coblaith Muimnech at 2017-05-18 03:37:36
If the submitter has any interest in using an authentic name, someone might point him to the Anglicized Irish forms of "Tuathal" recorded at http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/Masculine.shtml.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-18 04:21:04
Submitter indicates a preference for Irish Gaelic rather than Anglicized Irish, despite his choice of sources. So it is ... inconsistent ... that he has not proposed <Tuathal O'Siadhail>.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:47:21
Given name doc checks out. The second name is actually "Ó Siadhail". The closest spelling to the submitted form is "Sheill", but there are enough variants to make the client's form plausible.

Device Comments:

Brian O'hUilliam (Sable Crane) at 2017-05-03 00:13:31
I am not sure this meets the standards of A.4. B. for style and complexity. Furthermore, the IAP submitted is for a trimount in base and the submission has a mount as the primary charge. Therefore, I think this fails A.4.B. Also, if the mount is the primary as it appears to be blazoned, I believe we have a slot machine issue with the 3 items on the mount. If the mount is not primary and the tree is, I think we still have a slot machine issue. If I'm wrong, we'd need to include the color of the mount on the blazon.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-12 19:15:22
Correct me if I'm wrong, but mounts are peripheral ordinaries, so by definition they're not primary, right? The blazon needs to mention the tincture of the mount regardless; as written, the mount should be yellow, not green.

In terms of blurring the distinction between co-primary versus secondary charges, making the base smaller would help, because that would move everything down, allow the tree to grow, and make the harp and crane clearly secondary. Granted, the Csepely example cited below has a critter, tree, and rock in approximately the submitted proportions, but Hungarian heralds had no concept of charge groups. (Or conflict in general, really.)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 23:06:58
Mistholme says in Society heraldry we need to blazon the tincture of the mount no matter what charge is primary: http://mistholme.com/dictionary/mount-mountain/

In any case, I concur with Sable Crane that this is at most the beginning of an adequate IAP. I thought we had registered multiple cases of mounts vert against azure skies, the motif being so common in eastern Europe, each of which would have needed an IAP, but I find only one in the O&A and it's Jan 2003 (Aindrea Mac Parthaláin), pre-OSCAR.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-09 22:48:03
The "mountain" category in the Ordinary appears to be incomplete. "Base" is where all the low-contrast mounts I can remember (and then some) are found.

Varga János, Atenveldt LoI - 2011-09-25 (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=18268) (Commentary complete with scan from Batonvert of the entire Proceedings article from 1993)

Fortuné Stykewynd, Ansteorra LoI - 2014-06-30 (http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=42772) (With lots of Italian examples from Orle)

Victor Ispán, Laurel LoPaD - 2006-11-13 (http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=2327) (Using the old Arcanum links that have Gone Away)

I think there are others, including at least one current or recent one, but I'm lazy.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-10 08:55:43
Those commentaries are inaccessible unless one has rights at Laurel level.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-04 00:14:56
It's way past bedtime already, but here's a start:

Arrangement and contrast: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Gjanchewyth_c%C3%ADmer

Arrangement: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Csepely_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Kossuth_c%C3%ADmer

Contrast: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Balajthy_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Tarnovszky_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Hartha_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/G%C3%A1vai_c%C3%ADmer

Tree: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Kispalugyai_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Jeszenszky_c%C3%ADmer#nagyjeszeni_Jeszens zky
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Pak%C3%B3_c%C3%ADmer

Crane: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Fischer_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/M%C3%B3r%C3%B3cz_c%C3%ADmer
https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Szabary_c%C3%ADmer

The only thing I haven't encountered is the harp. The closest I can get is a lute (resumé heraldry -- the recipient was a famous minstrel): https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Tin%C3%B3di_Lantos_c%C3%ADmer

Image 1. Andreas Thopolyai Gjanchewyth, 21 Jan 1560, Vienna, Ferdinand I, nobility and coat of arms.

Image 2. Michael Csepely, 3 Jan 1560, Vienna, Ferdinand I, nobility and coat of arms; also: sister (?) Catherina Aranyay (wife of Peter Wsali), as well as Michael Benyei Korlát.

Image 3. Nicholaus Kossuth, 15 Jun 1479, Buda, Matthias, coat of arms.

Image 4. Stephanus and Johannes Balajthy, 24 Jun 1517, Buda, Louis II, coat of arms; also: Stephanus's son Franciscus.

Image 5. Johannes Hiezernicai Tarnovszky alias Lehotka, 12 Nov 1517, Buda, Louis II, coat of arms; also: his siblings Ladislaus, Gregorius, and Hieronymus, as well as his brother-in-law Sigismund.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-09 22:04:12
I found a harp in 1614 (canting arms), but the wiki I cited for the rest of the examples has the wrong image attached to the name. Here's a scan from the book instead. (Éva Nyulászi-Straub: Öt évszázad címerei.)

Johannes Hárfás ['harpist, with harp'] alias Bonyhay, Aug. 19, 1614, Linz, Mathias II, nobility and coat of arms; also his sibling Martinus.

1: Image 1

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-09 23:09:14
Image 1. Emericus Hartha, 1521, Buda, Louis II, coat of arms; also: his relatives Georgius, Gregorius, Sebastianus

Image 2. Lucas Gávai, 7 Mar 1540, Buda, János, coat of arms; also: his sibling Emericus

Image 3. Timotheus Kispalugyai-Boda, 29 Sep 1417, Constance, Sigismund, coat of arms

Image 4. Daniel, Melchior, Simon, Laurencius, Balthasar, Gaspar, Petrus, Nicholaus, Georgius, and Stephanus Jeszenszky de Nagyjeszen, 7 May 1563, Innsbruck, Ferdinand I, confirmation of ancient arms

Image 5. Andreas Dannyani Thúry alias Pakó, 14 Jun 1578, Vienna, Rudolf I, nobility and coat of arms; also: his sibling Johannes and his brothers-in-law Jacobus Penyigei Nyíry and Jacobus Rapolti Zólyom.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4 5: Image 5

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-09 23:18:14
Image 1. Nicholas Fischer alias Gillány, 17 Jun 1563, Bratislava, Ferdinand I, nobility and coat of arms; also: his wife Elisabetha Viszocsány, son Andreas

Image 2. Antonius Beketfalvi Mórócz, 25 Jun 1572, Vienna, Maximilian I, nobility and coat of arms; also: his father Petrus

Image 3. Lucas Miskolci Szabary, 12 Mar 1580, Gyulafehérvár, Christophorus Báthori, nobility and coat of arms

Image 4. Sebastianus literatus de Thynod, 25 Aug 1553, Vienna, Ferdinand I, nobility and coat of arms; also: his children Wolfgangus, Alexander, Carolus, Margareta, Judith. (text: http://adatbazisokonline.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/15)

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:10:48
unless im off i run into a complexity off of it being like 7 or even 8? ill admit that is not my strong suit would have to say a send back for redraw

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-05 18:33:11
Under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A3E2, complexity counts up to 8 are accepted without penalty, and "An item with a complexity count of nine or higher that follows a period pattern of charges and tinctures may be registered, but may need to be documented as an Individually Attested Pattern. [Emphasis added.]"

This submission has: Azure + mount + vert (not in the blazon submitted) + oak + harp + Or + crane + argent = 8.

The question to which Blue Talbot has called our attention is thus settled without additional penalty to submitter.

Moreover, the color emblazon at Lady Julia's https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmerhat%C3%A1roz%C3%B3/Jeszenszky_c%C3%ADmer#nagyjeszeni_Jeszens zky seems to provide justification for a high complexity count in this heraldic jurisdiction. My blazon of Or, behind a tree issuant from a mount proper a bear passant regardant sable, issuant from a cloud azure a cubit arm argent vested gules maintaining a sword argent piercing the bear gives: Or + tree + mount + brown + vert + bear + sable + cloud + azure + arm + argent + gules + sword = 13. Considering both cloud and vesture as argent with artistic detail, as perhaps implied by the b&w versions of these arms, still leaves 11. So even if submitter is forced into having an oak proper by the conventions of his chosen heraldic area, the resulting count of 9 should be acceptable.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-11 04:52:11
Nobody is mentioning that this has the unmistakable appearance of Slot Machine in the Primary charge group (Tree, Harp, and crane).

Elena Wyth (Bordure) at 2017-05-11 10:33:47
See Sable Crane's comment - first in the list of commentary for the Device.

Thomas de Groet at 2017-05-11 11:28:25
I missed that in the rest of his commentary on the charge group issues.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-11 17:10:39
Appears clear from conflict. Complexity is 8 which is fine. The tree is the only central charge and should be primary. The harp and crane seem to be co-secondaries. Might be a little bit better to reduce their size slightly so they don't blur the lines between charge groups. The mount is a peripheral ordinary and can't be primary. Getting the IAP of a green mount on an azure background appears to be accomplished in the commentary.

Kolosvari Arpadne Julia at 2017-05-12 19:22:43
A possible hiccup: I just looked through the book, and could not find a tree that wasn't basically a green lollipop with a brown stick.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-12 20:01:36
I wondered about that, as I noted above, and concluded we could work with a tree proper. I'd regret having to give up the submission's Germanic-style branches, and the trees in your examples do show some limited variation in foliage.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-12 20:13:54
They are still trees. As the tree isn't the part that's against the core rules, all you need is a simple attestation that the charge existed in the same heraldic culture, not that the charge existed in these same tinctures.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:48:18
We see a primary tree, a peripheral mount, and two secondary charges. Agree with Sable Crane that the color of the mount must be blazoned.


34: Vilhjalmr Olfuss -New Name & New Device

Per bend Or and bendy sinister Or and sable, wolf's head issuant from sinister and in chief a mullet of eight points sable

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Barony of Emerald Keep - Herald: Brigida Von Munchen

Vilhjalmr - found on p 16 in Geirr-Bassi as Vilhjálmr

Olfuss - found on p 30 in Geirr-Bassi as Ǫlfúss

Client wishes to leave off all diacritical marks

Submitted at Gulf Wars 2017 - Barony of Emerald Keep - Herald: Brigida von Munchen

Per bend Or and bendy sinister Or and sable, wolf's head issuant from sinister and in chief a mullet of eight points sable

Name Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:12:08
would think officially the marks would need to be in place (if there is a style notation for the clients wishes sure) but clear of any conflict

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-05 18:50:10
Not so. The College has repeatedly made statements like this at http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2004/09/04-09lar.html s.n. Kjǫtví Þorgrimsson*: "Old Norse names are registerable either using all accents and other diacritical marks or none." This is more precisely, and exhaustively, confirmed at http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#AppendixDB, "Non-Runic Old Norse":

we will register names written using the conventions of Standardized Old Norse ... which includes several special characters, including accents, thorn and edh, and ǫ (o-ogonik). We will register forms that include all of those characters, those that omit accents but include other special characters, forms that use only thorn and edh, or forms that include none of them. All of these forms are found in documentary forms.
----------------------
* If searching to confirm this, look for just Þorgrimsson; the given name is there Da'uded as Kj{ o, }tví minus the internal spaces.

Etienne Le Mons (Sea Stag) at 2017-05-06 20:56:15
Appears clear from conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:49:16
O-ogonek is not an o with a diacritical mark - it is a different letter. He can leave off the accents, but we don't believe changing a letter comes under that heading. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-31 16:39:49
True, but it's considered a "special character". http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2016/05/16-05lar.html#82, Fjorleif in Rauða, notes, "under Appendix D of SENA, we allow forms that omit special characters like o-ogonek" but immediately goes on, "If the submitter prefers this form [i.e., with the special character], she can submit a request for reconsideration."

We should offer the submitter the choice.

Device Comments:

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:12:52
no conflict found

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:49:59
No conflicts found. We think there's a problem: SENA A3. B.3.d says: "d. Elements Otherwise Divided: Elements not already mentioned must have good contrast between their parts. These include fields or charges evenly divided into four parts other than quarterly or per saltire, fields or charges evenly divided into more than four parts of two different tinctures, and fields or charges unevenly divided into multiple parts of two different tinctures; all of these must have good contrast between adjacent parts of the field." The two halves of the field share a base tincture: Or. The line of division is thus obscured.

Andrew von Otelingen at 2017-06-05 10:57:41
I second Green Anchors concerns.

I also have a concern that the bendy is not of consistent width.

Tostig Logiosophia at 2017-06-10 02:05:18
My concern is with the Apearance of Marshalling (http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A6F2). If viewed as two bendlets sinister the submission seems to have charges which terminate at the edge of a section (Violating SENA A6F2a). If viewed as bendy sinister, the submission seems to have sections which are subdivided (Violating SENA A6F2b).

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-06-10 18:41:35
None of that is relevant to us for a field per bend, Master Tostig. http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A6F1a, "Plain Field or Other Field Division" under "Designs which do Not Create the Appearance of Marshalling"

Only designs with per pale and quarterly field divisions are potentially marshalled. Designs with another field division or no field division are not marshalled under these rules.
(I suspect something particularly flagrant per saltire might get returned, but that's not stated in SENA.)

It's been said that the way to use "Claims through Marshalling" is to read it paragraph by paragraph until you've hit the situation you're judging, and then stop. That's pretty much accurate.


35: William Palfrey -New Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in October of 1991, via Ansteorra.

Bendy sinister vert et Or

Barony of Elfsea - Herald: P. Rutilius Caprarius

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-03 23:10:04
We aren't quite that Anglo-French. So:

Bendy sinister vert and Or

Eirik Halfdanarson (Star) at 2017-05-04 18:01:49
Consider the following:

Cú Chonnacht Ó Tighearnáin

The following device associated with this name was registered in January of 2005 (via the Middle): Bendy sinister vert and erminois.

Unfortunately, the change from OR to ermine is is only one DC.

Conall an Doire (Blue Talbot) at 2017-05-05 11:15:40
depending if the two frogs are really counted in this for two, conflict here as well Gislain Provencher The following device associated with this name was registered in August of 1993 (via the East): Bendy sinister vert and Or, in pale two frogs sejant azure.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-05-05 19:03:47
We never count N charges as such for N differences. Under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5E3, "Change of Number of the Primary Charge Group", having two primary charges instead of any other number does give a single SC.

However, what's relevant here is a few paragraphs above that, SENA section A.5.E.1, "Adding or Removing the Primary Charge Group".

A new submission does not conflict with any protected armory if it adds a primary charge group or removes a primary charge group. Thus, any armory which is field-primary does not conflict with any armory which has a primary charge group.
This submission is field-primary (defined at http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A5EF), and items that have any number of central charges get an SC from it.

So clear of Gislain.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-05-31 11:50:35
Conflict with Cú Chonnacht Ó Tighearnáin, reg. 1/05 via the Middle: "Bendy sinister vert and erminois." Only one DC between the Or and the erminois.


YIS

Lady Rebekah Aleyn


OSCAR counts 18 Names, 1 Alternate Name, 1 Household Name, 24 Devices and 9 Badges. There are a total of 53 items submitted on this letter.

[ Site News | LoIs | KLoIs | SENA | Prec | AH | Track | Sub Status ]


Site Copyright © 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, Lewis Tanzos