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Northshield ILoI dated 2017-02-22

Greetings unto Honourable Lady Merideth NiShionniach, Polaris Herald, the Heralds of Northshield, and our brethren from other kingdoms. Herein please find the Northshield February Internal Letter. Comments are due by March 20, 2017.

Letter Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 10:54:27
Comments under my name represent the consensus of the NE Calontir commenting group, consisting this month of Lady Zaneta Baseggio, Red Hawk Herald, Lord Caoimhin McKee, Sanglier Rouge Herald Extraordinary, Lady Rohese de Dinan, Shadowdale Pursuivant, Lady Gwenhevere Maynes, Deodar Pursuivant, Lord Galen MacColmain, Shadowdale Seneschal, and myself.

1: Bastien de Mesa -New Name & New Device

Azure, on a bend Or, three cups below three pearled coronets sable

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.

Bastien - French masculine given name dated to 1601 found in "Masculine Names from Artois, 1601" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman) (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/1601masc.html)

de Mesa - Spanish locative surname found in "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) (https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/isabella/locative.html)

SENA Appendix C permits combining French and Spanish name elements.

Per Mistholme: "As viscomital and baronial coronets of rank date to no earlier than the Stuarts, they are not defined for Society armory per se; however, the pearled coronet is found in 16th Century Scots and French achievements [e.g., Lindsay, 1542], and may be used by Society Viscounties and Court Baronies." (http://mistholme.com/?s=coronet)

Bastien de Mesa was awarded a Court Barony in the Kingdom of Northshield in July 2016, per Northshield OP.

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:01:59
Documentation checks out.

I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 10:54:44
Docs check out. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:00:34
Make that:

Azure, on a bend Or three cups palewise each crowned with a pearled coronet sable. [Corrected in response to comment below; after pointing the same out so often elsewhere, I'm embarrassed to have missed it here and grateful to Donna Beatrice.]

after the pattern of Tommaltach MacFhiachach's device, Apr 2010, Sable, in bend two lions statant, each crowned with a pearled coronet Or.

And forgive the consulting herald for not knowing the important non-SCA arms of Scrope (subject of the Scrope-Grosvenor trial in the British Court of Chivalry, in which Geoffrey Chaucer, Esq. was deposed), Dec 1994 (via Laurel), "Azure, a bend Or." 1 DC for the secondary charge group here, and nothing more.

So conflict.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:09:41
I agree, that is a conflict.

I didn't find any other, but since there is (AFAIK) no way to obtain permission to conflict, this submitter is going to have to come up with a different/altered design.

Juetta Copin at 2017-02-24 06:13:09
I think this would violate the rule against having two tertiary groups on one charge. (Also, I keep seeing a crowned head with a yellow band around the forehead.)

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-25 00:02:03
I disagree that this design invokes that rule. The O&A codes crowns as sustained or maintained, and we have at least a few registered devices with multiple tertiary charges each maintaining another charge:

Sebastian of Ventbarré, Aug 2005, Gules, on a bend sinister Or, three wings fesswise, each terminating in a hand maintaining a sword sable.

Canton of Black Icorndall, Nov 2004, Sable, an acorn within a laurel wreath and on a chief embattled Or two squirrels respectant each maintaining an acorn sable.

Wilham Juste, Nov 2002, Argent, in base a heart gules and on a chief sable a pair of armored arms embowed respectant each maintaining a dagger Or.

And of course we must have dozens of cases with single tertiary charges maintaining another. E.g., the first three recent devices with comparatively short blazons I found:

Muriel Macsonn, Jan 2015, Barry wavy argent and azure, on a chief wavy azure a dove volant argent maintaining an olive branch vert.

Rhianwen ferch Bran ap Gruffydd, Apr 2015, Azure, on a pile throughout argent between two flames Or a seahorse contourny maintaining an ax gules.

Thomas de Greenhalgh, Jul 2015, Per fess vert and azure, on a fess bretessed between three bows fesswise strings to chief argent a fox passant proper maintaining in its mouth an arrow bendwise sable.

(Me, I can see three desserts with complex toppings served in gold-rimmed glasses.)

Beatrice Domenici della Campana at 2017-02-28 10:40:56
On a bend, objects default to bendwise. These cups must be explicitly blazoned as "palewise".

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:15:48
Don't like the submitted blazon or the one proposed by Gerard, but don't have a better one to offer. When we see a charge blazoned as crowned, we expect it to be wearing a crown, not having one float above it, so we see two charge groups on the bend. Note that the both the cups and the crowns are palewise. Have to agree that this conflicts with Scrope.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 12:13:14
On consideration, concur with Green Anchor. I suspect seeing this emblazon as crowned cups requires a modern sensibility toward silhouette elements.

Especially in light of the desirability of avoiding my blazon of submitter's other item, I propose that this be returned as

Azure, on a bend Or three cups palewise each below a pearled coronet sable.

We have used below to blazon similar arrangements, in particular the ensign of the Kingdom of the West, Or, an anchor within a laurel wreath below a crown dancetty of three voided, all vert.


2: Bastien de Mesa -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Azure, in pale a cup and a pearled coronet argent

Per Mistholme: "As viscomital and baronial coronets of rank date to no earlier than the Stuarts, they are not defined for Society armory per se; however, the pearled coronet is found in 16th Century Scots and French achievements [e.g., Lindsay, 1542], and may be used by Society Viscounties and Court Baronies." (http://mistholme.com/?s=coronet)

Bastien de Mesa was awarded a Court Barony in the Kingdom of Northshield in July 2016, per Northshield OP.

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:04:40
Make that

Azure, a cup crowned with a pearled coronet argent

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 12:16:25
On consideration, I withdraw that proposed blazon. For one thing, I suspect seeing this emblazon as a crowned cup requires a modern sensibility toward silhouette elements. More importantly, it is unfair to invoke the "numerous conflicts" found for it under that blazon by Green Anchor.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:14:21
I agree the crown in secondary and should be so blazoned.

I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:17:59
Agree that the coronet is secondary. If the cup were actually crowned, there would be numerous conflicts. As emblazoned, we find none.


3: Caitríona inghean Criomthainn -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2016, via Northshield.

Quarterly erminois and azure, four quatrefoils conjoined in cross slips to center

Device Comments:

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2017-02-22 21:04:45
Does this device run afoul of the marshalling rule?

The blazon needs tweaking--there are two sets of four quatrefoils conjoined. I'm ... not entirely sure how to blazon it, though. Quarterly erminois and azure, eight quatrefoils four and four conjoined in cross slips to center, maybe?

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2017-02-22 21:05:55
Err, the tincture of the quatrefoils needs to be specified as well. So:

Quarterly erminois and azure, eight quatrefoils four and four conjoined in cross slips to center argent.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:18:31
We need to make clear that there is "a single identical charge in each charged section", http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#A6F1c. So, with Lady Shannon's correction:

Quarterly erminois and azure, in bend sinister two crosses each of four quatrefoils conjoined in cross slips to center argent.

(Cf. Dietrich Dominikus's device, Oct 2015, ... and on a chief embattled sable four crosses each of four lozenges Or.)

This also conforms to A6.F.3.a, "Plain Sections Without Charges", which allows any "plain tincture, including a fur, which we do not protect as arms".

And I hope I may be allowed a personal line congratulating Lady Caitriona on having actual quatrefoils blazoned as quatrefoils. (It doesn't always happen.)

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:24:50
While a cross of four lozenges is not an uncommon charge, a cross of four quatrefoils is something I"ve never come across (pun unavoidable). Thus, I'm not 100% sure A.6.F.1.c can be applied. However, A.6.F.3.a does apply, so my hesitation is moot.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:21:42
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:18:56
Agree that the tincture of the quatrefoils has been omitted. How about "two crosses each of four quatrefoils slips to center"? Probably clear of Annábla Martyn: reg. 9/16 via An Tir: "Quarterly counter-ermine and vert, in bend sinister two crosses of Calatrava argent." There's one DC for the field, but we're not sure there is a DC between these crosses and crosses of Calatrava. There probably is, but of all the crosses in the PicDic, these crosses of quatrefoils look most like crosses of Calatrava. No other conflicts found.


4: Elashava bas Riva -Resub Badge

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1983, via the Middle.

(Fieldless) A griffin passant Or gorged of a pearled coronet sable maintaining a pomegranate gules

Per Mistholme: "As viscomital and baronial coronets of rank date to no earlier than the Stuarts, they are not defined for Society armory per se; however, the pearled coronet is found in 16th Century Scots and French achievements [e.g., Lindsay, 1542], and may be used by Society Viscounties and Court Baronies." (http://mistholme.com/?s=coronet)

Elashava bas Riva became a Viscountess in the Kingdom of Middle on 10/5/2002 (per the Northshield OP).

Submission History: This badge, submitted on the August 2016 Northshield LoI, was returned on the November 2016 LOAR for presumption, for using a reserved charge (embattled coronet) that is not appropriate to the rank of the submitter. This resubmission uses a coronet appropriate to a viscountess. (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=67215)

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:31:03
Required correction to emblazon has been made.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:27:19
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:19:18
No conflicts found.


5: Elashava bas Riva -Resub Augmentation of Arms

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in June of 1983, via the Middle.

Quarterly Or and azure, in saltire a wooden spoon proper and a lute argent and for augmentation on a point pointed sable a compass rose argent

Submission History: This augmentation, submitted on the Northshield August 2016 LoI, was returned in November 2016 for redraw of the compass rose. It was noted that the tincture of the point pointed should show through the openings of the compass rose. (https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=67216)

Augmentation of Arms Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:31:13
Required correction to emblazon has been made.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:31:31
Unsurprisingly, I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:19:43
Looks fine this time. No conflicts found.


6: Galti holtaskalli -New Name & New Device

Gyronni arrondi gules and argent, a boar skull caboshed vert

Submitter desires a masculine name.
No major changes.
Language (Norse) most important.
Meaning (boar wood skull) most important.

Galti - masculine given name found in GB, p 10

holtaskalli - nickname found in GB, p 23

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 16:33:29
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:20:25
Docs check out. We see that the epithet's meaning is given as "wood-skull", but don't know where the client is getting "boar" from. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 12:28:57
The meaning 'boar' for <Galti> as a given name and <galti> as a bynamne can be found at https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Galti undated and at http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/vikbynames.html, "Viking Bynames found in the Landnámabók" by Countess Aryanhwy. http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml lists it as in GB but, surprisingly, gives no meaning.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:51:25
Darkening the eye- and nostril-holes would improve identifiability.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 05:24:42
It's either arrondi or arrondy indifferently (and caboshed or cabossed for that matter), but only gyronny. And skulls almost always take possessives (unless they're human). So:

Gyronny arrondi gules and argent, a boar's skull caboshed vert

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:19:09
Unfortunately, this conflicts with:

Garth the Lost
The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 1982 (via the West):
Argent, a boar's head caboshed vert, armed gules, langued purpure.
There is a DC for the field. There is nothing for such details as arming or languing. There is not a difference between a X's skull and a X's head cabossed, per precedent:
Device. Sable, two shamrocks and a ram's head cabossed argent.
This device is returned for conflict with the badge for Morgan Argante Elandris of Cantref Gwaelon, Sable, a ram's skull cabossed argent. There is a CD for adding the shamrocks but, as there is not a CD between a ram's head and a ram's skull that is the only difference. [Cormacc ua Néill, R-An Tir, Aug 2007]
This is inherent, but not stated, in:
Argent, a bull's skull azure. * The submitter has permission to conflict with the device of Þorsteinn of Swampkeype, Argent, a bull's head cabossed between three triskeles azure. [Bole Haxson, A-An Tir, Jul 2012
(After all, if there were a DC for the skull vs. head, there'd be no need for a LoPtC).

I didn't find any other conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:22:09
As drawn, this is hard to recognize as a boar's skull. Not sure "caboshed" is necessary here. Otherwise agree with what Gerard said.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 12:38:42
Laurel has not been consistent on this point. All but one of the animal skulls in the OSCAR era are depicted as caboshed, but a minority of them are so blazoned. The exception, the skull in Primus Cornelius Caprea's device, reasonably submitted as a natural ibex's skull facing dexter, lost its facing under Laurel's hand.

I urge Keythong to bring this inconsistency to the attention of the College if and when the conflict noted by Lions Heart is resolved on resubmission.


7: Geri of Falcon's Keep -New Name & New Device

Geri of Falcon's Keep

Purpure, on a lozenge argent a winged fox courant sable

No major changes.
Sound (Sounds like 'Grrr-eee') most important.

Geri - masculine given name found on Viking Answer Lady (http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml#g)

Geiri

Found in Old Danish as Geri, in Old Swedish as Gere, and in OW.Norse as Geiri. This name is a short form of masculine names in Geir- or -geirr, and also occurs as a weak side form of the name Geirr. For the first element Geir- see above. Frequent in Iceland. Occurs rarely in Norway. Found in the Danish and Swedish runic inscriptions. Runic examples include the nominative forms giRi, [kairi], (k)iari, kiRi, [kiRi], kiR... and the accusative forms haiRa, hiRa, kaiR[a], keir(a), kiRa. Anglo-Scandinavian forms include Geri.

GB p. 10 s.n. Geiri; FJ pp. 98, 343 s.nn. Geiri, Geir-; CV p. 196 s.v. geirr; NR s.n. GæiRi, GæiRR, GæiR-

Falcon's Keep - registered name of a group in the SCA. This branch name was registered in August 1992, via the Middle. Usage permitted by Branch Name Allowance.

Name Comments:

ffride wlffsdotter at 2017-02-24 17:55:32
R&W sn. Garey
Geri 1203
Geri filius Gunni 1150-60
"ON Geiri, ODa Geri `spear'. Gari is probably a Norman form. Geri, with hard G (as here) is difficult to distinguish from OFr Geri (with j-sound) in Geary, Jeary."

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:22:53
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:23:06
Glad an intended pronunciation was included. I would have made it the same as "Gary". Docs check out. Unless this conflicts with Gareth of Falcon's Keep, there are no conflicts.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 12:50:33
I trust Green Anchor was joking about the pronunciation. It cannot in fact be significantly different than <Gary>, and I hope that submitter is indicating only that it should not be the same as <Jerry>.

This does not conflict with <Gareth of Falcon's Keep>, Nov 1999, under http://heraldry.sca.org/sena.html#PN3C2, "Substantial Change to One Syllable". Even assuming that <ri> and <reth> are the syllables to compare (i.e., R is not in only the first syllable of <Gareth>), the vowel and concluding consonant group--none in the case of the submission--are each different.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-22 23:53:40
Before anybody else brings it up, I refer commenters to http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2001/08/01-08cl.html, "From Wreath Queen of Arms: WHERE HAVE ALL THE DETAILS GONE?" where we are told, "not all period heraldic art has internal details, and such silhouette depictions are acceptable in the SCA as long as identifiability is preserved."

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 05:18:50
This is

Purpure, on a lozenge throughout argent a winged fox courant sable

Beatrice Domenici della Campana at 2017-02-28 10:48:48
I find no conflict, checking for the lozenge or for a vetu field.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:24:53
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:23:57
Is that a fly buzzing around the fox's nose? Can't make out its tincture. The fox has only a dexter wing. Otherwise agree with Gerard's blazon. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 13:04:55
I trust Green Anchor is joking about the wing. We have regularly registered emblazons with the far wing wholly obscured by the near one, e.g, those below from http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=896, http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=11935, http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=45903, and http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=28926 respectively. I believe these accord with period models.

I am sure he is joking about the fly, and must suppose that the lines in question are meant to represent the fox's whiskers.

1: Image 1 2: Image 2 3: Image 3 4: Image 4

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 18:30:13
I wasn't joking about the wing. I shall continue to object to blazoning invisible things, even though I seem to be a minority of one on this matter. As to the whiskers(?), enlarging the emblazon shows them to be clearly not connected to the head. If they are indeed intended to be whiskers, they're pretty poorly placed.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 21:00:22
Concur that the possible whiskers are poorly drawn.


8: Judith of Northwode -New Name & New Device

Per pale ermine and vert, two pine trees vert and argent

Submitter desires a feminine name.
No major changes.

Judith is a feminine given name found in Family Search:

Judith Acton, Female, Death 14 Jun 1597, London, England, Batch B04199-8 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZZ3-2LQ)

Northwode is a placename found in Eckwall, p 344, s.n. Northwood.

Mx [Northwode 1438 Pat]

SENA Appendix A permits <of> followed by the placename in locatives.

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:34:03
I didn't find any conflict.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:24:34
Given name doc checks out. Don't have Ekwall, but Mills has an entry for "Northwood" with the submitted spelling cited from 1435. No conflicts found.

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 00:17:22
Since these trees do not have the amount of root that would be visible against the ground, this is:

Per pale ermine and vert, two pine trees couped vert and argent

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:32:06
I didn't find any conflict.

I'm worried about the identifiability of the ermine. At first I took it for seme of (round-ish) trees, due to the primary charges, then I thought it looked like seme of card "clubs". This may need at least an artist's note. YMMV.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-14 12:01:21
On consideration, concur. At standard viewing distance, the spots' tails disappear. We allow a wide variety in depiction of ermine spots, but none in which they can be taken for something else.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:25:14
Agree that the trees are couped. I'd like to see them specified as "counterchanged vert and argent." No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 13:08:57
The avoidance of identical tincture probably requires the trees to be in fess as emblazoned, but I concur that

Per pale ermine and vert, two pine trees couped counterchanged vert and argent

is more appropriate.


9: Marcial de Salas -New Device

OSCAR finds the name registered exactly as it appears in September of 2016, via Northshield.

Sable, semy of cross crosslet fitchy Or a squirrel sejant contourney, a bordure embattled Or and nine swords gules

Device Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 01:20:58
Make that

Sable crusilly fitchy Or, a squirrel sejant contourny argent and a bordure embattled Or semy of swords gules.

The swords across the top and down the sinister side are reversed and inverted, but I think that can get by as is--not necessarily even an artists' note?

At http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=145&id=16599, Istvan Wreath declared: "a mini which is X high should be viewed from a distance of 20*X" in the same units." When I view the 2" display on my screen at about double arm's length, ~40", the crosses are just barely identifiable as crosslet, and don't look a very clear Or. The same is true for an 8"-high version viewed from 13'. If we can get a version from submitter with bolder crosses--or supply one for his approval--I would be happier.

This has the maximum nonproblematical complexity count of 8: Sable, crusilly, Or, squirrel, argent, bordure, swords, gules.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:38:26
I didn't find any conflict.

I agree the crosses don't show up as well as they should, IMO.

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:26:14
Has the rapier now become the default sword, replacing the broadsword? If not, these rapiers will have to be so specified. In other respects, we agree with Gerard's blazon corrections. Agree that the crosses need to be drawn more boldly. No conflicts found.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 13:25:43
I would insist that a sword blazoned as a rapier be significantly narrower in the blade than those in the submission. These are perhaps best called "basket-hilted shortswords"; a Net image search on that phrase finds some with longer, narrower blades than here which turn out to be sold as broadswords.

I believe we should allow submitter his blazon on the swords.


10: Marguerite Coquette du Lyons -New Name & New Device

Azure, two lions combatant Or and in chief a dragonfly argent

No major changes.
Sound most important.
Language (French 16th c) most important.

Marguerite is a French feminine given name found in "French Names from Paris, 1421, 1423, & 1438 by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman) (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/paris1423.html)

Coquette is a descriptive byname, found as a period term in the "Centre National de Ressource Textuelles et Lexicales" (http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/coquette):

Étymol. et Hist. A. Subst. [xves. coquette (Moralité ds Dochez, Nouv. dict. de la lang. fr., 1860)]; 1611 coquette « femme bavarde, commère polissonne » (Cotgr.); 1643 subst. coquet « homme qui cherche à plaire » (P. Scarron, Recueil de quelques vers burlesques, 96 ds Richardson). B. Adj. 1. 1643 « qui ne cherche qu'à plaire » (P. Scarron, op. cit., p. 91, ibid.);

"Etymologic and historical (note): noun (15th c. Coquette (sources); 1611 coquette "chatty woman, naughty gossip" (Cotgr[ave?])."

du Lyon is a French byname found on p. 81 in "Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman)(http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/1292paris.pdf)

Name Comments:

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:43:59
I believe SENA Appendix A allows this formation. Documentation looks OK. I didn't find any conflict.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-14 12:03:34
Yes, "given+byname+locative".

Device Comments:

Shannon inghaen Bhriain uí Dhuilleaín at 2017-02-24 07:24:48
No conflicts found.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:47:15
I didn't find any conflict.


11: Marguerite Coquette du Lyons -New Badge

OSCAR is unable to find the name, either registered or submitted.

Azure, in pale a dragonfly and a pearled coronet argent

Per Mistholme: "As viscomital and baronial coronets of rank date to no earlier than the Stuarts, they are not defined for Society armory per se; however, the pearled coronet is found in 16th Century Scots and French achievements [e.g., Lindsay, 1542], and may be used by Society Viscounties and Court Baronies." (http://mistholme.com/?s=coronet)

Marguerite Coquette du Lyons was awarded a Court Barony in the Kingdom of Northshield in September 2016, per Northshield OP.

Badge Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 01:53:00
"In pale" implies co-primary charges. I don't think these are close enough in size for that claim. So:

Azure, a dragonfly and in chief a pearled coronet argent

I am being inconsistent but I think correct in not using the phrase I used to blazon the cups in https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4353&dsn=72728#1 and https://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=100&loi=4353&dsn=72728#2 on this letter, crowned with a pearled coronet. Here I would expect that blazon to produce a tiny diadem about the width of the dragonfly's head, which is not the submitted design.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 17:50:42
I'm afraid there is a conflict:

Ailis inghean Mheadhbha
The following device associated with this name was registered in June of 2010 (via Lochac):
Azure, a dragonfly and a chief invected argent.
Only one DC, for type of the secondary. Nothing else found.


12: Sulayman al-Din Hamadani -New Name & New Device

Pily bendwise Or and sable, a five headed hydra rampant and a chief gules

Submitter desires a masculine name.
Client requests authenticity for 13-14th c Persian.
Sound (wants the name to flow well on the tongue) most important.

Sulayman is a masculine given name found in PERIOD ARABIC NAMES AND NAMING PRACTICES by Da'ud ibn Auda (David B. Appleton) (http://heraldry.sca.org/names/arabic-naming2.htm)

al Din Hamadani is the 13th c byname used by Rashid al-Din Hamadani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid-al-Din_Hamadani)

Submitter is asking for help to make this name authentic to 13-14th c Persia.

Name Comments:

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-02-23 02:58:44
The Wikipedia link in the head matter uses the form as quoted, "Rashid al-Din Hamadani", for its heading. The article's body gives the relevant name as Rashīd al-Dīn Faḍlullāh Hamadānī.

Multiple sources give us "al-Din" as meaning '[of] the Faith/Religion'.

http://hamariweb.com/names/muslim/arabic/boy/fazlullah-meaning_495 and http://thenamesdictionary.com/name-meanings/93799/name-meaning-of-fazlullah both declare that part (Google Translate transliterates فضل‌الله from the article's Farsi as "Fazlullah" in context but "Fadlallah" when isolated) to mean 'grace of God'.

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Hamdani gives us "Ham[a]dani" as 'much praise'; I find nothing on its meaning anywhere else. However, the Wikipedia article says this Rashīd's family was from the city Hamadan, aka Hamedan, aka Ecbatan(a).

So <Sulayman al-Din Hamadani> might mean 'Solomon [who gives] much praise of the Faith' (or 'Solomon Praise the Faith Highly') which is neither inappropriate nor presumptuous, or 'Solomon of the Faith, from Hamadan', which also strikes this Christian as acceptable in a Muslim context.

The name thus appears to be properly constructed and meaningful for modern reference to a historical figure, but that does not guarantee it is correct for our period, let alone authentic for a given couple of centuries in Persia.

I recommend sending it up with submitter's plea intact, if we cannot ourselves assist him.

Tala al-Zahra at 2017-03-01 14:16:06
Sulayman al-Din Hamadani سليمان الدين همدانی

I think this name construction is fine. I'd translate it as "Sulayman of the faith, man from the Hamdani Province." Just like in other languages, the name can mean something, but can simultaneously also not be grammatical or sensical. My modern name is Rachel Kay Weiner, meaning "Innocent Lamb Pure Wine-Maker." Yes, the words mean something, but that doesn't mean those meanings must all be expressed in sentence-form. Normally, we'd need the definite article before the third name, but apparently they didn't always do that in Persia.

همدانی will be pronounced "Hamdani," not "Hamadhani," which is written as همذاني. It might be advisable to write it as such as well. Since the submitter is not indicating any of the other short vowels, this would be accurate. Sulayman al-Din Hamdani

NOTE: It will be pronounced ad-Dīn, not al-Dīn.

Basil Dragonstrike (Lions Heart) at 2017-03-13 18:06:58
From the article by Da'ud ibn Auda, cited by the submitter:

Titular names such as `The Sword of the Faith (Sayf al-Din) and `The Sword of the State' (Sayf al-Dawla) were bestowed by the caliph on military and political leaders and were very highly valued. Thus, names consisting of "X + al-Din" (the most famous examples being "Salah al-Din" [Rectitude of the Faith], "Nur al-Din" [Light of the Faith] and "`Ala al-Din" (Aladdin)), "X + al-Dawla" (Nasir al-Dawla [Defender of the State]), "X + al-Mulk" (Nizam al-Mulk [Order of the Kingdom]) and "X + al-Islam (Sayf al-Islam [Sword of Islam]) were generally an indication of status or rank. As a consequence, such titular names are not registrable in the SCA, and they have been left out of the lists of period names.
That statement has been upheld numerous times.

Further, in all my reading I have never come across a "naked al-Din". Thus, this is either not registrable by Da'ud's statement above, or it is not registrable for having an undocumented formation.

al-Hamadani can be documented. Please see below, from The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition

Note also that "Rashid al-Din" is, like Sayf al-Din, etc., etc., a titular name itself.

1: Image 1

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 18:33:53
We were unable to document the given name as Persian. Hope the client is OK with that departure from his request for a Persian name. It's certainly registrable as submitted.

Michael Gerard Curtememoire at 2017-03-20 21:03:22
Not according to Lions Heart's analysis of the <al-Din> usage it's not.

Device Comments:

Gawain of Miskbridge (Green Anchor) at 2017-03-20 11:39:10
Although most of the hydra is on the sable part of the field, the most important details are on the Or, so this should be OK. Pily bendwise is a difficult field to charge. No conflicts found.


Thus ends the February Internal Letter for Northshield.

In service to Northshield & the College of Arms

Mistress Mira Fastova

Keythong Herald


OSCAR counts 6 Names, 8 Devices, 3 Badges and 1 Augmentation of Arms. There are a total of 18 items submitted on this letter.

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